Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

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I'd love another mailbag showdown personally, the last one was the funniest video in ages.

.... HAHAHAHAHA "Perfect Dark and DooM are ripping off Halo" man i wish i was that good.
yes WoW is the devil but considering how many ppl play it they have to have done something right, and ffs they released a new patch for Diablo 2 recently you got to admire what they do for their fans.

btw as a side point i think that there should only be commercials in the end of Yahtzee's reviews for games that he has previously flamed.

mspencer82:

Indigo_Dingo:

Fire Daemon:

Indigo_Dingo:
Yahtzee claimed the bad writing on Fullyramblomatic by claiming that the scene wherein Raiden is reunited with his faithful wife, serving almost as a reward for all his work - for Snake, for EVA, for the good of mankind - is indicative of a poor writing style. No comment.

THE PATRIOTS!

So, the idea that a greatly powerful shadow organisation might just use a mans Wife and child to manipulate him into working for them, when they were already in his head, when they already did it to great success, is bad writing? Huh?

I can't believe Yahtzee emphasized the Patriots angle more than the decyborgification. I suppose at this point in the series we've all just automatically accepted that anything that's implausible can be explained with the phrase "nano machines did it" and we move on.

YES, now you understand. I still don't get why you emphasized MGS having bad writing just because it was set in an ALTERNATe reality...or maybe it is our own reality with the Patriots covering it all up. After all, they have done it before....THE PATRIOTS DID IT!

I'm fairly sure that he was referring to it as a catchall. In other words, take anything not clearly explained in Star Wars and it's "uh...the Force, lol." and in this game it's "Uh...Nanomachines did it, lol" As it stands, catchalls aren't exactly the bees knees when it comes to writing because it leaves room for the writer to get exceedingly lazy in their explanations.

For the record, I don't believe anyone said it had bad writing based on it being in another reality, they said it had bad writing wholly based on the merits and flaws of the writings themselves, hence the lack of comments about cyborgs and crazy people with powers not existing. We accept that there's a reasonable level of unbelievability. Since the world is set up to run as though these things exist we excuse them. It's when things go beyond suspension of disbelief that issues arise. Take the Superman movie. Spoilers if you haven't seen it.

"Alright, we've got a guy who's super strong, can fly, has LAZER EYES! and is nigh invulnerable. He can do this because he's a Kryptonian, an alien, and he gains these amazing abilities from our sun. His weakness is kryptonite. It saps his strength and makes him loose all superhuman abilities. How much there is can affect how fast it works as well. The more there is, the faster it works."

"Alright, I guess I can work with that...But here he's lifting an island riddled with kryptonite, some of the crystals being larger than his body, and flying it off the planet. I thought it weakened him."

"Well, it does...But not this time."

"Why?"

"Uh...Kryponian, lol."

I'd almost be disappointed if this did not lead to a mailbag showdown 2. Still seems like people get to anal when Reviewers knock their game... lol

Rarely do I ever disagree with Yahtzee, this being one of them. MGS4 is a simply amazing game.

mspencer82:
Star War science may have been unbelievably stupid, but we can always say that it makes sense in a weird way because it's a galaxy far away. The Star Wars universe operates differently than ours, they could have talking gerbils who command the forces of nature and Star Wars fans would consider it canon.

And I supposse that a parallel universe similar to our own is totally impossible, because it ignores the fundamental laws of MsSpencer82.

GlenRice41:
I'd almost be disappointed if this did not lead to a mailbag showdown 2. Still seems like people get to anal when Reviewers knock their game... lol

I'm not sure if Yahtzee will ever do a mailbag showdown 2. There are some stupid pro-MGS4 answers in this thread, but they aren't as numerous as those in the SSBB's thread. Either way, he could take advantage, make a video about it and get his paycheck, without actually answer any valid answer here.

mspencer82:
[I can't believe Yahtzee emphasized the Patriots angle more than the decyborgification. I suppose at this point in the series we've all just automatically accepted that anything that's implausible can be explained with the phrase "nano machines did it" and we move on.

I don't see any relation between "decyborgification" and "nanomachines". Are you sure you're being critical and not just a little bitchy and childish?

The thing I find funny about catchalls is that they ALWAYS appear in sci-fi, always. Its more a matter of how obvious they are. A good example is star wars. The force is not the catchall most people think it is, they have a setup for how sabers would work and how hyperspace would work and so on, its just the whole "Well, its far more advanced" thing. Its the setting that happens in a futuristic era. In a way each bit of tech lends itself to helping justify the others. "Well they can repel away from a planets gravitational pull, so I can't imagine putting a cage around some plasma would be that hard" and so on. Problem is that for some people its just easier to see that more futuristic setting and accept the physics defying tech as OK because it seems so far away. MGS is set more in the here and now and as such it seems too close to home for some people to really accept that things may be diffrent. But that is why its fiction. Its all fantasy and you have to go into any work of fantasy with the mindset of 'well this is not real and you have to give it some leeway because of that when reading'. Truth is that any work of Sci-Fi is going to break the bonds of normalcy or else its not Sci-Fi. Having tech that may be impossible or highly improbable with what we know now is kind of the point regardless of what Era it is set in. MGS series is no more or less guilty of that than anything else, and the lack of understanding of genetics is no worse than, say, the lack of understanding for physics in most Star trek series.

haruvister:
Spot on about the exposition-heavy writing style. Sadly, a lot of anime suffers from this, as anyone who's seen Ghost In The Shell or Appleseed will know. XXX yawnography.

Both of those anime were, in my opinion, brilliant. Its far more complex and interesting than the sitcom-style everything is always resolved easy to swollow fluff cartoons we usually get stateside. People need to stop mistaking their own dislike for more dry and complex writing as bad writing.

It all depends on whether hes arrogant enough to ignore the valid points being raised here and if he's just going to make up poorly spelled defences of MGS4 with no merit and claim they were actually sent to him, and that they were indicative of the rest, or if he's planning on doing a second review, in which he recounts all the incredibly sweet stuff he didn't talk about.

Indigo_Dingo:
It all depends on whether hes arrogant enough to ignore the valid points being raised here and if he's just going to make up poorly spelled defences of MGS4 with no merit and claim they were actually sent to him, and that they were indicative of the rest, or if he's planning on doing a second review, in which he recounts all the incredibly sweet stuff he didn't talk about.

Reading the last update in FullyRamblomatic, I don't think he'll make a second review. "I'm not even going to explain why that shit pisses me off".

Enders Game. There, a series with no catchalls, and as far as the "it's more advanced thing" they don't use that as often as you think. Have you read much of the expanded universe? The lightsabers aren't even plasma, I just said that because it's what they would realistically be, not KILLER LIGHT that inexplicably ends. Even ignoring that, all you're saying is that it falls victim to the same crappy writing that other series fall to. A catchall is NEVER a good thing...Regardless, my points have, once again, been ignored in leu of talking about something random only tangentially related. Not only that but...Wait, Star Trek physics? Aside from the first season they've attempted to at least be as close to correct as possible. Hell, they're anal retentive in that department. At least pick your references better, oye.

Also, and I hate to agree with Mr. "absence of logic" up there, but both Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed were well done. I can't say anything about the recent Appleseed, but as far as Gits and the first Appleseed are concerned they've both got the ability to tell an intricate plot similar to that of the MGS series. That said, at least Ghost in the Shell falls victim to similar problems that plagued the Metal Gear line. Exposition got over the top long at times and it required you to stretch your suspension of disbelief to some pretty absurd levels when concerning the laughing man. Despite this, boredom was never an issue and most dialog was important as opposed to "fluff that'd be nice to know but why dear god are you bringing it up now?"

To VeryOblivious, I'd have to agree. I doubt he'd make another review on this. With SSBB, the fans were rabid but most of the issues come down to personal opinion. If you don't like the controles or the characters seem to small or what have you, nothing can change that. It can't be explained away. There isn't any deus ex machina when it comes to gameplay problems. The MGS series has issues that can be pointed out that are objective. You can like something and still realize something has issues, but this isn't one of those cases. People who love the game can't be arsed to at least admit it has issues. Hell, as a fan of Kingdom Hearts, the Eragon book series, and numerous other "things with problems" I fail to see why they NEED it to be so awesome. Shit, why does your enjoyment need to be backed by THIS IS AWESOME AND HAS NO FLAWS! Why not just say "Yeah, it can be long and convoluted, and the gameplay may be off at times...but fuck it, I still love it." What's so difficult about that? Seriously, answer me that.

Because the gameplay and long story are things that we do love about it.

Tempdude0:
Enders Game. There, a series with no catchalls, and as far as the "it's more advanced thing" they don't use that as often as you think. Have you read much of the expanded universe? The lightsabers aren't even plasma, I just said that because it's what they would realistically be, not KILLER LIGHT that inexplicably ends. Even ignoring that, all you're saying is that it falls victim to the same crappy writing that other series fall to. A catchall is NEVER a good thing...Regardless, my points have, once again, been ignored in leu of talking about something random only tangentially related. Not only that but...Wait, Star Trek physics? Aside from the first season they've attempted to at least be as close to correct as possible. Hell, they're anal retentive in that department. At least pick your references better, oye.

Also, and I hate to agree with Mr. "absence of logic" up there, but both Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed were well done. I can't say anything about the recent Appleseed, but as far as Gits and the first Appleseed are concerned they've both got the ability to tell an intricate plot similar to that of the MGS series. That said, at least Ghost in the Shell falls victim to similar problems that plagued the Metal Gear line. Exposition got over the top long at times and it required you to stretch your suspension of disbelief to some pretty absurd levels when concerning the laughing man. Despite this, boredom was never an issue and most dialog was important as opposed to "fluff that'd be nice to know but why dear god are you bringing it up now?"

To VeryOblivious, I'd have to agree. I doubt he'd make another review on this. With SSBB, the fans were rabid but most of the issues come down to personal opinion. If you don't like the controles or the characters seem to small or what have you, nothing can change that. It can't be explained away. There isn't any deus ex machina when it comes to gameplay problems. The MGS series has issues that can be pointed out that are objective. You can like something and still realize something has issues, but this isn't one of those cases. People who love the game can't be arsed to at least admit it has issues. Hell, as a fan of Kingdom Hearts, the Eragon book series, and numerous other "things with problems" I fail to see why they NEED it to be so awesome. Shit, why does your enjoyment need to be backed by THIS IS AWESOME AND HAS NO FLAWS! Why not just say "Yeah, it can be long and convoluted, and the gameplay may be off at times...but fuck it, I still love it." What's so difficult about that? Seriously, answer me that.

I love the expanded universe, but its more a matter of frustration at people for saying things are bad when they just don't get them. Its frustration to listen to people rant about how horrid the writing in something is because its too dry. And yes, every science fiction book, even enders game, uses catchalls. Every book works on theoretical and often incorrect assumptions about how physics work. I won't go into how sabers are supposed to work here, but I will say that its just frustrating to hear people say "Well the writing is long and I find it boring and it says alot of things that arn't just up front so its really bad". Do you kind of understand why its annoying? I'm sorry but EVERY Science fiction book works on assumptions to some extent.

In the end though my argument is simply that people are mistaking fluff heavy writing for bad writing. Now if this was a D&D book I would be ticked off at alot of fluff, but overall I tend to think of good integration of a large amount of fluff is a GOOD thing. Its just not something everyone likes, but its not bad.

...I...Are, you you honestly that thick or are you just dicking around? The point is that the very things you love about it are the problems with it. You may love them to death, just like some Narutards love Sasuke, but your love of all things shitty doesn't mean it's good. It's just what you like.

There's my point. You like what can objectively be called "bad" or "trying" or "annoying" or whatever. Why not just admit it? I don't care if you like those aspects, believe me, I understand what it's like to enjoy something with problems, but I do care that people have to tout the things they love as being awesome and beyond reproach. Being good and being enjoyable mustn't always go hand in hand.

Why can't you admit you like the crappy aspects. No, don't tell me you love it and blah blah blah and that makes it good. It makes it ENJOYABLE and specifically to you/others who enjoy the same thing. Why must your love be contingent on it being good? With the exception of a few vocal people, most here, even OTHER FANS can admit to seeing the problems with this game. They can see the issues and still love it.

Why is it that Indigo_Dingo, Jumplion, TerraMGP and miscellanious people not on this page that I can't be arsed to go find must defend to the death these things as being great but only if your one of those people that "get" it. You know, a hip, jazzy, super cool, neat, keen, and groovy cat. It's in the fridge, daddy-o! Are you hip to the jive? Can you dig what I'm layin' down? I knew that you could. Slide me some skin, soul brother!

Tempdude0:
...I...Are, you you honestly that thick or are you just dicking around? The point is that the very things you love about it are the problems with it. You may love them to death, just like some Narutards love Sasuke, but your love of all things shitty doesn't mean it's good. It's just what you like.

There's my point. You like what can objectively be called "bad" or "trying" or "annoying" or whatever. Why not just admit it? I don't care if you like those aspects, believe me, I understand what it's like to enjoy something with problems, but I do care that people have to tout the things they love as being awesome and beyond reproach. Being good and being enjoyable mustn't always go hand in hand.

Why can't you admit you like the crappy aspects. No, don't tell me you love it and blah blah blah and that makes it good. It makes it ENJOYABLE and specifically to you/others who enjoy the same thing. Why must your love be contingent on it being good? With the exception of a few vocal people, most here, even OTHER FANS can admit to seeing the problems with this game. They can see the issues and still love it.

Why is it that Indigo_Dingo, Jumplion, TerraMGP and miscellanious people not on this page that I can't be arsed to go find must defend to the death these things as being great but only if your one of those people that "get" it. You know, a hip, jazzy, super cool, neat, keen, and groovy cat. It's in the fridge, daddy-o! Are you hip to the jive? Can you dig what I'm layin' down? I knew that you could. Slide me some skin, soul brother!

just to poke a third party opinion.

Why does your; inability to comprehend/taste/playing style Automatically mean a game is bad.

why do you feel the need to attack to death those things as being bad?

im off now, this thread reminds me of why i stay away from featured content.

I got the feeling that this review was more of a whine-fest than anything >.> Definitely not Yahtzee's best piece of work...

By the way, why the hell should we be re-introduced to Raiden? Even if he wears a ninja suit and can cut down Gears with a vibrating sword, his face still makes me want to just punch him in the face. And that voice... maybe its just the US version, but he makes me laugh in the worst way every time his mouth opens. In my opinion, any MGS game that has that retarded asschild in it will most certainly always have a certain bad taste in my mouth >.< If what everything's being said goes true, then I'll stick to MGS3:SE as my all-time favorite... there will never be another like the original Snake. Never.

Anyways, I'm not sure if this has been realized or not, but there's been a lot of dirty naming going on here O.o I mean, come on... Solid Snake, Liquid Snake, Solidius Snake, Naked Snake, and now we have Old Snake... Hell, why not just rename Raiden 'Trouser Snake' and finally give him a title that suits his actual level of intelligence?

Uh, never said the game was bad, just mediocre. If I did, I apologize, rectify said statement, and now clarify that I don't feel it was terrible. I feel the writing was bad though. I understand why some people like it. I stated I understand their enjoyment of it. I repeatedly stated I understand their enjoyment. I even went so far as to say I could relate. However, if I see people chuckling at monkeys throwing shit and the audience is comparing it favorably to D. H. Lawrence, I get miffed. They clearly aren't on the same level. One is D. H. fucking Lawrence and the other is monkeys flinging poo.

The same case is here, when a writer goes to egregious lengths to tell a story than that writing is bad...or at least mediocre. The good aspects of said story get lost in the sheer amount of information being thrown at the watcher/reader.

I attack these people because they nitpick what they'll respond to. If a person makes a statement and you're going to respond, attempt to work in most of what they've said, not a single sentence taken out of context. That's not debating and it boils down to an ego-wank. You can't ignore the context nor entire points for the sake of convenience if you're attempting to make a counter-point. Unless you're a politician, then it's par for the course.

As for staying away from featured comments, if I actually got a well reasoned response that took all points made into account and there was some attempt at an actual dialog I wouldn't make personal attacks. They don't add anything save to illustrate my lack of respect for people who keep taking pruning sheers to other peoples arguments.

You want a debate, fine and dandy, I love debates...But I'm not going to sit around and argue in a respectful tone with people who can't be bothered to respond to what people are ACTUALLY saying. It's pretty simple.

Oh, and Terra replied again. Goody...In order:

1) Do tell what the catchalls in Enders game are, I'm curious. Please, I'm not even being sarcastic this time. I'm honestly curious where you're picking this up.

2) I said nothing about assumptions, at least get what I'm saying straight. Well, you may be referring to my "suspension of disbelief" line, but then...thats what I said. Everything requires suspension of disbelief to a certain extent. It's when this suspension is stretched to the breaking point where things go sour.

3) ...You'd be ticked off at the writing if it was a book, but not a game? The book relating to D&D, the most fluff heavy thing I can think of in existance. That's confusing to the point I don't even WANT to know.

4) Do you read what I write or just catch a glimpse and go tangent mode?

That list would have been last post had I noticed your comments. Eh, c'est la vie. That said, the last one was pretty much entirely in response to Indigo_Dingo.

Oh, and trouser snake would have lent itself to way too many insufferable puns and penis jokes. Most people dislike the guy already, he doesn't need anything else terrible added to his character...Ha ha, thunder down under. There, that's a free one that could have been used if he had been called that...And now I need to wash.

Tempdude0:
Why is it that Indigo_Dingo, Jumplion, TerraMGP and miscellanious people not on this page that I can't be arsed to go find must defend to the death these things as being great but only if your one of those people that "get" it. You know, a hip, jazzy, super cool, neat, keen, and groovy cat. It's in the fridge, daddy-o! Are you hip to the jive? Can you dig what I'm layin' down? I knew that you could. Slide me some skin, soul brother!

Because people who claim to hate it present only a remarkebly shallow view, while people claim to love it will site the deeper aspects. It all smacks of someone claiming that Lost is bad because they can't follow it. They seem to feel that their inability to grasp a many layered plot is somehow the fault of the creators and the writers, and not theirs.

ok, lets just reply to these in kind.

1. Please tell me how you explain the tech in ANY Sci-Fi without ending up at a catchall. If nothing else you have the universal catchall of "well, its Science fiction". It may not always be clearly defined but honestly even in works like starwars 'the force' is only a fan-assumed catchall. My point is that unless you can explain ALL of the physics about it to a reasonable extent, then the assumption that things work is the catchall. Do you see what I am saying?

2. I'm asking why some works seem to create that much more suspension to you. At this point I would have to say its more of an objective thing than anything, how open your mind is willing to be and how well you know the subject matter. Thats more personal than a flaw with writing.

3. Because I pay for crunch with D&D books. If I am paying that kind of money for a game book I want the tools to write my OWN characters and campaigns and more crunch. Fluff in those cases beyond simple flavor text is really simply just filler in my mind.

4.Yes I do.

Roffey123:
Mailbag...showdown...sense...tingling....

Let's hope so ;)

Lost is...well, odd, though considering it's not supposed to take place in normal reality I give it a whole bunch of leeway. It goes so far that it's more of a fantasy series, and fantasy can always just fall back on "it's magic" which would be weak writing. As for "normal reality" The MGS series takes place in a reality that is similar to our own with the addition of super-science. All other aspects of reality are essentially held to. In addition to all that, Lost is still going, so until most of the questions are answered I can't say much about it aside from it being a head-trip. That, and I don't really follow it so I can't argue anything about it.

1) Uh, nooooo, because that's not what a catchall is. As far as the tech in Enders Game, it was all pretty much computers. Relatively advanced ones, but considering they were essentially playing a realtime strategy game in 3-D, I don't see where the "Sci-fi" in that aspect is considering we have things like that now..just not in full 3-D. Once again, point out the specific ones you obviously know about, because if you didn't have one in mind you wouldn't have made the statement...Or did you not know what you were talking about and just wanted to make a smart ass comment?

2) That's "subjective" you're looking for there chief, and the initial amount of suspension is created at the start of the series. Take Dick Tracy as an example. We can accept a few goofy people here and there, but no one superhuman ever showed up. A few with remarkable abilities perhaps, but no "leaping small buildings in a single bound" If someone did this, it would break the established tone of the series. It's not that difficult.

3) Eh, whatever. I said I didn't want to know and really, I meant it. Your explanation is sufficient, I suppose, but considering the D&D BOOKS (read, not rulebooks) are meant to be fluff and should be held in the same regard as the storytelling in MGS 4 I'm still somewhat lost.

5) I doubt it, what with you not actually responding to my first question and just going off on a barely related tangent.

I find it interesting that you give some things leeway and refuse that leeway to other things for the same reason. MGS is taking place in a fictional modern day. As I said before this whole thing is subjective and the whole idea of a catchall is for the most part flawed. Even the use of 'the force' as a catchall is flawed. I am trying to explain that what you are talking about, at least in terms of science fiction and the science itself, the catchall that it is fiction. Everything is more about this whole idea of what your willing to accept or not. Enders game has the same catchall as every work of science fiction, the simple fact that you have to accept the BS as plausible enough to ignore the flaws in. That is something personal more than a matter of writing. Yes their can be glaringly bad writing where some cop out explanation is used for everything, but that is not Starwars, at least not the extended Starwars, that is not the MGS series, if anything with series like that the problem is the opposite and involves the individuals issues with complexity, not cop-outs.

Just accept it, this problem you have is more YOUR problem with what you are willing to accept rather than a problem with the writing itself. Things are explained and done in a rather good way as long as your willing to accept some flaws as any Sci-fi work will have.

swytchblayd:
I got the feeling that this review was more of a whine-fest than anything >.> Definitely not Yahtzee's best piece of work...

By the way, why the hell should we be re-introduced to Raiden? Even if he wears a ninja suit and can cut down Gears with a vibrating sword, his face still makes me want to just punch him in the face. And that voice... maybe its just the US version, but he makes me laugh in the worst way every time his mouth opens. In my opinion, any MGS game that has that retarded asschild in it will most certainly always have a certain bad taste in my mouth >.< If what everything's being said goes true, then I'll stick to MGS3:SE as my all-time favorite... there will never be another like the original Snake. Never.

Anyways, I'm not sure if this has been realized or not, but there's been a lot of dirty naming going on here O.o I mean, come on... Solid Snake, Liquid Snake, Solidius Snake, Naked Snake, and now we have Old Snake... Hell, why not just rename Raiden 'Trouser Snake' and finally give him a title that suits his actual level of intelligence?

How about Impotent Snake?

And staying in the numbered format goes out the window. Weeeeee!

I even explained why one has more leeway, look at the post you claimed to read. I even laid it out all simple like...You know what, I'm not even going to bother going into a lengthy post, I'm just going to call you an idiot and be done with it.

You can't be bothered to respond to my points, you misunderstand what a catchall is but swing it around like it's your dancing partner, flaws in writing are not covered under suspension of disbelief, another term you seem to not understand, and to top it all off you keep referring to the EXPANDED universe, that's the term, and yet you know nothing of it or you would see how often "force, lol" is used.

Here, I'll even give you an example of that one, something you've yet to do. The Ylasmir, a strange and wonderful weasel looking creature that can block the force...because it can. No explanation is given, it just works. That's "Force, lol" and fall under the catchall. Get it?

The thing that really kills me is that all you would have to do is google some of these terms to get them and you can't even be bothered to do that. Dumb AND lazy, a potent combination.

Oh, and I can sound like a pretentious twat as well, watch:

Just accept it, this problem you have is more YOUR problem with what you are willing to accept. Things are explained and done in a rather mediocre way as long as your willing to accept some flaws as any Sci-fi work will have.

As for Impotent Snake, same problems. "The man is never up to the job." "He keeps folding like a wet blanket." "What a softy." "Hey look, he's fallen and can't get up."...Aw, I feel even worse now. Shower, I need a shower!

Lightning Snake may work because I figured impotency has already been covered by "Old Snake". It's a subtle nod to premature ejaculation without drawing too much attention. 'Course, there are probably better words with the emphasis on speed, but I can't be arsed to find them right now.

I just like beating this dead horse.

No, I actually like that one. It only lends itself to a few puns and works fairly well for what he was. "Always enthusiastic, but burns out too fast." "He can never go the distance." "It's the same every time, he gets going then two minutes later BAM!, he's on the floor and out cold."

And I'll take this dead horse beating over the "discussion" with whatsherface up there, though both are tantamount to the same thing...Well, at least this is entertaining.

Ah crap, double post...Anyone know how to delete these things?

Your right, I know nothing, I am not going into a SW D20 game set in the NJO era tomorrow, I just don't understand you, its not that your totally wrong and don't understand what I am trying to say. I am responding your just ignoring me, and I don't understand what the point of arguing is if your going to ignore me. You insult me just as much, you have been just as pretentious if not MORESO from the very beginning and your text walls frankly move around in circles. The Force is not a catchall in the expanded universe, its simply expanded upon. If you can't understand the difference then its no wonder you get confused so easily.

But lets get back to the core of the issue ok? Point out these freaking flaws in the writing ok? Point to where it is in the series that you think that actual flaws rest. Is it in the complexity? is it in the 'fluff?' what is it? Frankly from the looks of it your splitting hairs. Heck your making my point for me "It doesn't explain why the Ylasmir block the force' well ok fine, Ill grant you that if you grant me that the MGS series spends quite a bit of time making SURE you understand how things are supposed to work. So with starwars your complaint is that you don't get enough fluff, with MGS its that you get too much. That sounds more like a personal issue with your ability to accept what is presented to you because its too much or too little rather than any inherent problem with the writing. You have decided that 'this much information is acceptable, too much more and its overkill too much less and its just a catchall cop out'.

I find it funny that your trying to peg the whole pretentious thing on me, and even funnier that your trying to tell a SW fangirl she knows nothing about the expanded universe. But it doesn't matter. You just come here to post some confused psudo-intellectual drivel and make yourself feel like a big man anyways.

What really kills me is that whole phrase about accepting mediocre explanations for science fiction when your accusing me of being pretentious. You have no idea what your saying anymore, its just a thin veil to try and cover up the fact that you don't like the writing and you don't get it so it must be bad.

The second I played this game, I thought "If Yahtzee ever reviews this he's just going to piss all over it." So I'm truly shocked that he called the characters well-rounded.

As for the story being poor, if by "poor" he means "verbose to a tiresome degree" then huzzah. If he means "boring dull nonsense" then pfeh. Looking past the endless explanations and loose story threads being spun together, at least the core of every scene kept me interested in what was happening and maintained that there was a purpose to the whole thing.

Arntor:

swytchblayd:
I got the feeling that this review was more of a whine-fest than anything >.> Definitely not Yahtzee's best piece of work...

By the way, why the hell should we be re-introduced to Raiden? Even if he wears a ninja suit and can cut down Gears with a vibrating sword, his face still makes me want to just punch him in the face. And that voice... maybe its just the US version, but he makes me laugh in the worst way every time his mouth opens. In my opinion, any MGS game that has that retarded asschild in it will most certainly always have a certain bad taste in my mouth >.< If what everything's being said goes true, then I'll stick to MGS3:SE as my all-time favorite... there will never be another like the original Snake. Never.

Anyways, I'm not sure if this has been realized or not, but there's been a lot of dirty naming going on here O.o I mean, come on... Solid Snake, Liquid Snake, Solidius Snake, Naked Snake, and now we have Old Snake... Hell, why not just rename Raiden 'Trouser Snake' and finally give him a title that suits his actual level of intelligence?

How about Impotent Snake?

I'll agree to the Raiden thing. Not even Hideo likes the guy, if the videos of Metal Gear Raiden trailer says anything (I would recommend them highly to a lover of Snake Eater. The sight of an aroused Volgin approaching Raiden (who, if you'll remember, looks just like Volgins lover) is hysterical).

As for Snake, the name originally came from a Kurt Russel character called Snake Plisskin. The solid was added because of the two states of a snake - a solid creature when it strikes, and a liquid creature when it flees.

And who the hell calls theirs Old Snake? If mine went dead, I'd probably just end up yelling "Snake.... Snake?.....SNAKE!".

Tempdude0:
"It's the same every time, he gets going then two minutes later BAM! He's on the floor and out cold."

I love this one because I can imagine this in-game as two guards are having idle conversation with each other after they've been alerted about an intruder.

Some female NPC
"He came really quickly through the gates and then disappeared!"

OK, lets get down to the blinding flash of the obvious. Some people may wish to cover their eyes.

All fiction is set outside of reality. That is why it is called fiction.

The legal systems in CSI do not funtion in the same manner as the ones here. The prosecution does not get as heavily involved in a legal case in New Yorks real legal system as they do in Law and Order. People who are as incapable of functioning as Monk generally are not able to be the greatest detective in the world.

Uh, I talk about what you've said point by point as they come up through reading your overly long diatribes. I fail to see the "ignoring" in that. Oh, so you're going to grant me something that was already established, how big of you. Do go on...Though the force wasn't expanded upon, it was used as a deus ex machina catchall in certain series.

...You seem to be misunderstanding "fluff" fluff is extra information not related to core concepts integral to a series. It serves to flesh out characters and the world around them. It frequently is in no way related to plot of the game/book, but is there as an attempt to make the reader/game-player forget that their reading about/dealing with fictional characters. Otakons love of anime is fluff, Snakes military training is not. Medics odd tendancy to know about movies is fluff, Volgin being a pervert is not, wich is surprising. You throw around terms that I don't believe you fully understand.

So fangirl, give me solid example from the universe you so love. I did it and I'm only a fan in a few cases. References people, references. Saying something doesn't make it so. Use actual examples in your argument and I won't think so little of you.

Yeah, pseudo-intellectual is a great term. It means you don't get what I'm saying. It means that my language, rather unrefined because I don't feel like talking in a formal matter, is beyond your comprehension. This is YOUR problem, not mine. I may be overly verbose at times just like the Metal Gear Series, but I never claimed to be succinct. In fact, I've referred to all my responces as "rants" which by definition are long winded.

...And once again, I get the writing. It's just not good. It's not punchy, it's not insightful, it's not the pinnacle of writing...I referenced the writer of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" what more do you want in regards to my level of comprehension? Do you want to know I read War and Peace? What will convince her highness of my ability to "get" the writing, aside from having to LIKE it?

Also, keep in mind my comprehension is such that I can keep pace with even the most nonsensical thing you've said, and the biggest indicator that I know what I'm talking about and that you don't is that I've yet to fall back on terms like "pseudo-intellectual" or to ignore the parts of your argument I can't actually answer. There aren't any I can't, but that's not the point. I get your arguments, they just lack substance, much like the game you love so much.

Furthermore, I stated earlier that I loved, LOVED Metal Gear Solid 3. Now, even assuming that as a baseline for what I can understand, your ravings don't even compare to Kojimas writing. He may be a talkative bastard and I may not like all his works, but you hold no candle to him even on his worst days.

And once again you fail to address my points. I'm even setting them up in easy to respond format and you STILL can't do it. I even gave you an itemized list for gods sakes.

To Indigo_Dingo, wasn't the the character in escape from New York? Oh, and I apologize for earlier hostilities. I'm more irked at Terra than you. You managed to keep a more level head throughout the conversation. I still don't think you get what I was talking about, but I'm going to let that slide because you've been, if nothing else, rather polite.

As for the "fiction" aspect, of course all fiction is set apart from reality. It's the extent to which they're set apart that's the issue. If set too close, Supermen should not be showing up and if set too far nothing need be explained realistically because of so alien a world. In the case of things like MGS, CSI, and Law and Order, we must make allowances for the sake of plot and entertainment. This only extends so far. As an example, aliens shouldn't be showing up in the MGS series. I guess if it was done well enough I could run with it, but that's be one hell of a feat of writing. In CSI, none of the group should suddenly be able to go "punisher" on crooks without ramifications. This is what I was ranting about earlier.

As to Arntor, I like that line...Personally, I was going for the scenes where he gets "killed" in each game, like with the narrator doing a voice over, but I enjoy your example.

OMFG! People don't like it when someone insults what they like! What next?! Needing food to live!

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