Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

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Yes, its fiction, the argument that is raging right now is if this fiction is bad because of the loopholes. Its going to have them, I am simply arguing that while bad enough ones can break immersion in a story for the most part the writing is what draws in the reader regardless of the loopholes, causing the reader to fill in the 'if this is true' blanks mentally by disregarding them or making assumptions. That is every science fiction story, and indeed most fiction stories. These 'catchalls' are simply a way of saying a copout excuse for why something works the way it does but in every work of fiction things work diffrenlty in real life and we can simply think of things as having bigger or smaller catchalls and more or less believable ones. That is why I am saying that it is not BAD writing to, for example, have an animal that blocks the force but nobody knows why. Maybe they don't know why. Maybe nobody has had a chance to get ahold of one long enough to dissect it or perhaps they have found nothing to warrant why, but it does. Now is it bad writing because "oh now we can't use the force" or perhaps is it better to assume that the reason is not given because they don't know or its not important to the story and they move on which is honeslty what people say MGS should do.

Thats actually a really good way to make my point. people are complaining about copout answers on the one hand, and then to the best of my knowledge answers that are over explained on the other. Its kind of a Goldielocks scenario and that is far more personal than anything else. Now if people have actual 'catchalls' within the MGS story such as the use of nano for all sorts of diffrent things, well then its all a matter of weather the person is willing to accept that maybe they play a major part or if they just want to think its a BS answer. I'm not saying writing can't be objective on some levels, in fact it has to. However Bad writing would be like Master chief who, at least in the games, shows little emotional depth and has a massive amount of obvious plot device on his side with nothing to distract from that fact.The fact that an in-game or in-story universe works on diffrent principals from our own is part of why it is fiction. I really just think its a matter of a persons tolerance for light or heavy fluff being translated into how good they consider the overall writing.

and no, your not setting up your points well, your blathering on in cricles.

And no, you don't have to LIKE the writing. You can hate writing and still accept that its not bad. Your not making a case for why the MGS series has bad writing, nobody has. All they have done is complained that it gives them what they feel is too much information which is not in itself bad writing, and on top of that all you have done is talk about catchalls, talked about problems with your inability to 'buy' the setting which you could simply accept is more personal than anything. You don't like it, thats fine, but you have made no case for why it is outright bad.

New rule. No-one can say Yahtzee was spot on unless they've played the damn game.

Ok lets just clear up the clutter and make this 'punchy' as you seem to like. What, besides the amount of talking, is it that you find WRONG with the writing? what is wrong wit the story or the way it is presented OTHER than the length at which things are presented?

Also the more I look at it the more I start to think it may not be as much a matter of hypocrisy on Yatzees part as much as the fact that he simply does not like to review games he does not want to play anyways and so just kinda cops out waiting for games he wants to get his hands on.

Indigo_Dingo:
New rule. No-one can say Yahtzee was spot on unless they've played the damn game.

Yahtzee was spot on the negatives (Beat in one sitting (good ole red bull)) like the cutscenes and cumbersome controls. Looks damn good though and pretty decent fun I just found no replay value.

TerraMGP:
Ok lets just clear up the clutter and make this 'punchy' as you seem to like. What, besides the amount of talking, is it that you find WRONG with the writing? what is wrong wit the story or the way it is presented OTHER than the length at which things are presented?

How ridiculous it is. (Halo is ridiculous too thats why I skip the cutscenes in both.)

That tells me nothing. You think its Ridiculous, you have already said your not a fan of fiction, that again is something subjective, its personal. That doesn't make it bad writing it just means you find it ridiculous because it doesn't SEEM to mesh up with our reality as much.

TerraMGP:
That tells me nothing. You think its Ridiculous, you have already said your not a fan of fiction, that again is something subjective, its personal. That doesn't make it bad writing it just means you find it ridiculous because it doesn't SEEM to mesh up with our reality as much.

Oh you mean wrong as in quality of writing ah I though you meant wrong story wise. Sorry. (It is good writing in that way.)

Yes, people are arguing the writing quality more right now. They are not talking about bad story just bad writing, and I don't see it. The only complaint that I have seen so far that I can even understand is that its not 'punchy' to which I simply say that is part of personal preference more than anything, Its subjective.

I've never played MGS4, but almost every issue brought up was one that I had with MGS3, so I doubt much has changed.

This just in. Brawl Still shit.

Ok, fine you chimed in with your opinion, just keep the whole thing with brawl out of it. You want to argue about that little gem of chaos management do it in the appropriate review thread dagnabbit.

See, what's funny is I'm not trying to insult their interests. Just like with Halo, I'm not going to say it's the most brilliantly written thing ever. By the same token, it's not that bad. They both fall into the "meh" category. It gets a bit dopey at times, but it's still fun. (Actually, I'm not a huge fan of the Halo gameplay/story, but that's more to do with me not being a huge FPS fan to begin with than with inherent issues with either.)

I just don't get why people can't see something objectively, realize it has flaws, and continue to enjoy it.

No, once again, that's not what catchalls are. They're poorly constructed plot devices and are in no way concerned with suspension of disbelief, which is what you're describing in the first paragraph. As for the why, no one knows how they do it. They just do...Because it's a plot point. That's where the force becomes a catch all. It's assumed that since the force is mysterious in it's ways that the writers don't need to explain why things work. At that point, it becomes a deuce ex machina/catchall. Where are you getting what you're saying? And as for "assuming it's not important" when a creature is found that can cut off the source of your powers, people with those powers are going to look into it. That's a given, and it's not fluff because it's directly related to the central plot. It's not a secondary plot, it's not background information for fans, it's tied to the MAIN STORY in the book.

As for Master Chief, emotional depth isn't necissarily bad writing depending on what you're going for with it. As for plot device, he's a cyborg/robot thing. His armor is absurdly powerful regardless. That's a plot device, yeah, but in a world where giant rings make death, robot exoskeletons aren't that far fetched.

As for saying "It has to be objective" what the bloody hell do you think people have been spouting about for 23 pages? Even fans find the game to be long winded and convouted. If people who aren't fans and fans can both see issue, it's there. That's objectivity in action. "Expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations" They like it, yet still see the problems. Bam, there it is. What are you looking for here?

And it's not over explained, it's ridiculously explained. It'd be like saying "Clowns did it." "Well, how?" "Nanomachines!" "I'm sorry, what?" "Clowns!" It gets fucking surreal, and not in a deep way...An odd, twisting, acid trip surreal. The only "over explanation" is in going over the same information repeatedly over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ad infinitum.

I can't even go into the nanomachines. You have tiny robots that can control people and force them to do things and yadda yadda yadda, and yet people can deceive you and for some reason you don't just shoot a dart of the damn things into Snake and kill him. I reserve that last one as an extreme example because that would make the game insufferably hard, but you get where I'm going...Well, maybe not YOU, but some of the other people here do.

AND STOP USING THE WORD FLUFF INCORRECTLY CONSARNIT! Google it for gods sake. Here, I'll do it for you, right from the dictionary. "something inconsequential" Good grief woman, reading comprehension. I've only explained it, what, three times now?

As for punchy...That's the definition!"having punch : forceful, spirited b: vivid, vibrant" Long winded speeches don't have punch if they're filled with useless info, which is what invariably happens as speeches in the Metal Gear series drone on and on.

Furthermore, the bad writing comes from how set apart from reality it is. I've explained it before, but I'll give it another go. Metal Gear Solid is set in a reality similar to ours. We have been told gravity, most laws of physics, and the human body to react in the ways they normally would. If people suddenly start jumping fifty feet, deflecting bullets with feathers, and the human body can now turn 180 at the waist, then it's breaking the world it set up. Certain characters are exceptions if a reason is given, such as extensive surgery, and even psychic powers. Those are fine, if a little cliche. The problem, put simply, is when characters/objects/events start doing things that go beyond the reality already set up by the story itself. Have you heard me complaining about foxdie? Have you heard me complaining about Raiden and his inexplicable ressurections? Okay, the second one is off, but whatever. The point is that my basis for what is/isn't and should/should not happen is set up BY THE STORY INITIALLY. They set up the world, all they have to do is adhere to it.

I'm assuming the "Don't like fiction" is aimed at the other dude."

...Okay, to anyone else, just to get a guideline, are TerraMGP's responses making even a lick of sense? Really, I'd just like to have reasonable discourse but she keeps avoiding my points like the plague. Am I asking to much that people pay attention to each other when having a discussion? Really, I hit all her points, is it over the top to ask for the same? Honest opinions here, please, I'd actually appreciate it.

To Hawaiigm, I like it. It has problems, such as a low ceiling, a few over powered characters, and some crazy ass screens that make it hard to fight in. However, it falls into "Lovably stupid." Though the subspace emissary can kiss my ass...But that's for another thread.

Tempdude0:

I'm assuming the "Don't like fiction" is aimed at the other dude."

Yea its at me.

Just clarifying.

Wait, didn't you say you read the Halo books? It may not count as GREAT fiction, but it's still a work of fiction, or am I thinking of someone else?

Quit assuming your right with one definition of the word for crying out loud, thats annoying. your using one potentially correct definition of the word. I know exactly what fluff is, I am using it correclty.

Frankly though I don't have the tiem to respond to all of this, I have to get to bed. I will simply say that

You are totally wrong about detachment from reality being bad writing, its just that YOU don't like it. that does not make for bad writing it just makes it hard for you personally to accept it if it seems to be detached from reality. I have seen really good writing that has been VERY detached from reality and very bad writing that has explained everything about it in detail (alot of the Star Trek stuff comes to mind).

now how about this. You complain about HK talking in circles and writing poorly, so how about YOU shore up your rather confusing drivel into a summation of what you think it is. Your point from what I have read, as it has been, is more or less that you feel unless everything seems totally grounded in reality to you then its poor writing, well guess what the more you understand how the tech might work the more you realize its all BS in the end.

now quit being so OCD over defenitions when you know what the implied point is and that words usually have more than one, and as for punchy it can be as bad and annoying as 'droning', that again is opinion. Your quantifying punchy as good by definition, fine, Then Rambo and Sports pages are amazing works of literary genius. It is again personal preference and some people prefer to have dry and more drawn out explanations. Dry writing is not bad writing its just not what YOU prefer.

And yes the "don't like fiction" was aimed at him, not you. He stated that he did not like works of fiction.

Tempdude0:
Just clarifying.

Wait, didn't you say you read the Halo books? It may not count as GREAT fiction, but it's still a work of fiction, or am I thinking of someone else?

Yup I have. I don't like insulting people by not using their gift.

I'm using the dictionary. Are you calling the dictionary incorrect? Really now, that's just silly.

Once again, detachment isn't a bad thing...You know, it'd help if you actually read what I wrote. I've even dumbed down my diction a few times. I enjoy the Star Wars expanded universe. If I didn't have a reasonable ability to deal with breaks in reality I wouldn't be reading any of the books...And yet I have and I continue to do so. What a CA-RAAAAZY HAPPENING! Guess you misunderstand my simple statements about my personal preferences.

You...look, before I go further, I stated I was using the dictionary for definitions. If you want to be an asstard about it you can take your grievances up with Miriam-Webster. Just because some idiots, i.e. you, believe a word can be used in whatever manor you feel it fits doesn't make you right. That's why we have a dictionary. IT'S what decides on a definition...And yes, I realize it's debated by the writers of said dictionary, but I'm not even going to get into that. Waaaaay beyond what you're up for.

Continuing with that, "punchy" can not be bad. Sports and Rambo are not necessarily "punchy" The word means, ACCORDING TO THE DICTIONARY: "having punch : forceful, spirited b: vivid, vibrant" While "having punch" can be debated to a certain extent, forceful and spirited, vivid and vibrant cannot. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Check if you don't believe me.

As for a quick summation, fine. Here we go.

Metal Gear has mediocre writing because it tends to stretch suspension of disbelief to unheard of levels. Even within the world it sets up, certain events (anything concerning that cockwit Raiden) are beyond what could realistically happen. If ZE PATRIOTS!1! can get into peoples body and minds, there are no secrets...Period...Even ignoring that aspect, when a writer begins to re-tread old ground, he had better be doing either a recap for newbies or introducing new information a la retcon/actual storytelling. Doing neither, going over information repeatedly simply for the sake of going over it is filler, and filler is always bad. That's why it's called "filler". Look it up if you don't get what it means.

As for "Dry writing" I'm going to the dictionary again. I'm going to do your job for you just to point out how stupid you sound. "not showing or communicating warmth, enthusiasm, or tender feeling b: wearisome, uninteresting <dry passages of description> c: lacking embellishment" There we go, dry writing is never good due to it's nature and if you knew that you wouldn't be referring to something you like as "dry" you monumental douche. Stop using terms you don't comprehend.

Also, Drawn out does not mean "dry" it just means lengthy. The ending to MGS 3 was lengthy, but it was so well done no one cared. It was LENGTHY AND PUNCHY! They aren't mutually exclusive. That means you can have both, just for clarification purposes.

And use OCD better. Obsessive Compulsive isn't the same as anal, well, not really, but subtlety seems to be lost on you, and I'm not even being anal in this case. I just want you to use words correctly. You're not even using slang, words meant to be interpreted by the tone of use. You're using words with fixed definitions. Get it straight.

You know what, I'll sum up my points, all of them, when you show me you can "get" my writing. Since you fail at basic reading comprehension, I doubt that will be any time soon. All you have to do is answer the questions I've asked of you. That's it. Check back, they're numbered/separated into individual points. Easy reading. Even a kid can do it. I laid them out like I was setting up a question and answer sheet for middle school students, so you can't even complain about their delivery.

As for anyone else, I'm still up for a reasonable discourse on the game. I'd honestly be interested in hearing about why you like such an expanded version of storytelling. It seems to be similar to "decompressed storytelling" that's used in comics, but I don't get the appeal of that either. Just please, respond in detail. I want a "why" not just another "I like it because it's good." or "I like it because it gives a lot of information." I want to know why such drawn out exposition is enjoyable. I'm curious.

As for shatnershaman, Oh...Well then I really have no comment. Though, uh, how DID those rings work anyway? All I know is they were supposed to kill things, and there's something called the flood...Yeah, I don't know. I've only caught bits and pieces here and there.

You press the button and it goes boom? I really don't know.

Fair enough. Honest question though, am I making sense? I'm just trying to establish that I do actually have a line of reasoning with my posts. On the same note, do Terras responses make sense? Same deal, I want to see if I'm the only one not understanding where they're coming from.

This actually goes out to anyone. I really am trying to get a baseline for whether or not either of us make sense. It's not a "do you agree?" thing, just "can you follow, and do the responses make sense given the information in the posts that are being responded to?"

wow just wow i bet this will reach 1k posts ;D

randomjoe333333:
wow just wow i bet this will reach 1k posts ;D

Why'd you think it wouldn't?

It might reach 1000, I just hope it's not this same argument going back and forth between Tempdude0 and TerraMGP for those next 200 posts. Maybe it's time to just agree to disagree?
I think people get too upset by Yahtzee's opinion sometimes. That's all it is after all, a personal opinion.

I love fanboiz, I really do. They make the Internet interesting. Brawl fanboiz just ramble on endlessly like idiots, and MGS fanboiz try to sound intellegent while rambling on like idiots. I sense another mailbag showdown soon.

Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.

No, you don't make sense Tempdude0, normally I don't ind text walls but yours are, quite Ironically, hard to read. Still even from what I gather each time I can't agree with you. You do realize that words don't always adhere strictly to what is in the dictionary don't you? That sometimes they have diffrent definitions in diffrent ones? Your clinging to one definition as the right one and with some of these things, especially the word 'Fluff' I'm sorry but your definition of it is not the only potential one.

But AGAIN, YOU did not care that MGS3 was long because it was more 'punchy' than say 4... well thats YOUR preference for writing. That does not make it bad it just means that you don't like it. Thats perfectly ok but its not bad writing simply because of that. Your talking about 'Punchy' like its a qualifier for good writing because of the definition you put forward before. Writing can easily be too 'punchy', heck thats why the few times I have had to read the sports page I wanted to go to the news paper office and beat the guy. I realize that their is more to good writing than that, but good writing does not have to just keep spoon feeding you main plot and yanking you along so you don't notice the flaws.

But in the end, from reading what you have written I just can't help getting frustrated. This whole "suspension of disbelief" crap is again your own personal issue and not an issue with the writing. Everything you have argued thus far has been subjective personal opinion. You don't deal with character development and you only have a PERSONAL issue with the plot development. I admit like any story their are some plot holes but they really do alot to explain them and do it fairly well, as well as making everything tie in. I don't see anything at all wrong with the writing.

And for the record, you really need to stop being so OCD about definitions, and YES I say OCD because you stopped being just Anal about it a long time ago. You know what I am trying to say, you understand the meaning behind the words, quit trying to make your point with semantics and obsessing over it please. How about with your next post you just do what you say MGS4 should do and make a simple, concise, clean post, not a text wall as you seem to muddle those, that in one or two paragraphs simply talks only about why the 'punchy' writing your looking for and why what is basically the problem with all science fiction makes it bad writing.

Now if you will excuse me I have an Ancient Sith cruiser wreck to be semi-useful in.

tooktook:
Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.

Are you seriously conparing Yahtzee to Hitler! Just because he points out things about a game and doesn't like doesn't mean he's a fascist dictator! He 'dissed' a game other people like, oh well, I support Liverpool football team and my mate supports Everton I don't hate him for it!

Don't feed the trolls agerdemon...Well, at least not unless you find humor in it. Besides, his post is so ridiculous it's either incredibly witty commentary on the people in the thread or a very, very stupid person. I almost hope it's the former.

To SloughFeg, I'll agree to disagree when a certain someone decides to read what I've written in its entirety. Since that has yet to happen I intend to keep on a goin'.

Terra, that was going out to everyone other than you. I thought that was fairly clear, but I suppose I need to explain everything to you.

Yes, yes those words do strictly adhere to what's in the dictionary. If they didn't they'd have slang uses...They don't.

It...Did you even read the definition of punchy? I even included it for you terminally lazy people who can't seem to look things up. A writing cannot be "too" punchy. That defies logic. Once again you've yet to actually read what I've written, or in this case what Miriam-Webster has written.

Uh huh. Sure it is. You keep on trucking and think whatever you want to think. If you keep banging your head against that wall of reason you may just topple it one day. The term "suspension of disbelief" exists specifically to describe both the inherent fantastic elements in a work and the point at which a work goes beyond what it's established as the limits of it's reality. If you prefer, I could always say MGS "jumped the shark" to a certain extent. Or "nuked the fridge". I like that one because it involved an atomic bomb.

Semantics, eh? My insistence that you not sound like an idiot when writing is semantics?...Yeah, it is to a certain extent, but if you can't use a word properly, avoid it. Your point becomes muddled amidst all the terrible misuses. I can't be bothered to figure out which words you're using correctly/incorrectly. If you've got a point to make, make it without relying on other people to wade through your stupidity. I may be a rant 'o matic, but at least my points are clear and easy to follow. Hence the numbered lists I was using for a little while. It didn't get any easier than that, and yet you proclaim to not be able to follow my statements. What's more clear and concise than an itemized list?

And as I said, I won't be doing that summation until you can get off your ass and actually read through a whole statement. I find it hard to believe you can understand Kojimas writing but get lost in my little rants. Either you can't have understood Kojima or you're being purposefully obtuse.

Oh, and as for OCD "a person who shows signs of infatuation or fixation with a subject/object, or displays traits such as perfectionism, does not necessarily have OCD, a specific and well-defined condition." I've let some of your terrible language skills slide, I just focus on the ones that are integral to your "points" such as "punchy" and "dry" writing. See, this is why I opted not to go into this. To differentiate between anal and OCD, you need a grasp of subtlety which you lack in the extreme. That aside, I'm merely being insistent, a time honored debating method.

Oh, and nice little reference there. Perhaps we shall talk of the Sun Crusher as well, and the Kessel Run in which smugglers attempt to ferry illegal goods while vying for the fastest time. Perhaps I shall go read of Vuffi-Ra and his space faring people...You've already illustrated you know jack about the expanded universe. You can give it up now.

wow i think this has the most replies ive seen yet O_o
XD ive had a thought, you can knock out kajima the same why im planning to kill george bush, with a pillow fight, but you fill your pillow with rocks, but i dont have the x files box set so can i lend that off someone please?

agerdemon:

tooktook:
Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.

Are you seriously conparing Yahtzee to Hitler! Just because he points out things about a game and doesn't like doesn't mean he's a fascist dictator! He 'dissed' a game other people like, oh well, I support Liverpool football team and my mate supports Everton I don't hate him for it!

No, I'm not comparing Yahtzee to Hitler. I was joking. I do apologize. My humor seems to be lost on a lot of people. The idea of comparing Yahtzee to Hitler is so ridiculous I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. Come on, did you honestly think I was being serious? I have enough faith in humanity to believe no-one would make that statement and be serious.

tooktook:

agerdemon:

tooktook:
Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.

Are you seriously conparing Yahtzee to Hitler! Just because he points out things about a game and doesn't like doesn't mean he's a fascist dictator! He 'dissed' a game other people like, oh well, I support Liverpool football team and my mate supports Everton I don't hate him for it!

No, I'm not comparing Yahtzee to Hitler. I was joking. I do apologize. My humor seems to be lost on a lot of people. The idea of comparing Yahtzee to Hitler is so ridiculous I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. Come on, did you honestly think I was being serious? I have enough faith in humanity to believe no-one would make that statement and be serious.

Soz it is difficult to know whats humour and what isn't when it's just written down. I still think that Yahtzee is completely justified to make the comments he has.

TerraMGP:
I know exactly what fluff is, I am using it correclty.

So ehm, what definition of "fluff" are you using?

See, when I think "fluff", I think

1. Unnecessary information with little substance

2. Cotton

3. Bunnies

A little elaboration would help things get on the same page, if tempdude0's text walls don't completely take up all the room that is (ba dup tish). For discussion's sake it'd be more preferable if those participating would settle on a single definition of the words being used. In my opinion, the dictionary definition of a word or at the very least, the slang terms that are known universally(which likely means that it will be listed as "slang" in the dictionary) is advisable. That is, of course, if we are not moving into an abstract discussion of 'What is art?' and 'What is beauty?'.

Yet, the matter remains,

We can not move forward onto the a higher ground of discussion if both participants do not understand each other's usage of words.Thus, their arguments spin in circles like two men trying to grab each other's buttocks inside a revolving door. It stops the flow and people can't get inside the damn building.

if this continue we will see Team Retards come back. Another round of Shut up from Yahtzee

I can't say I won't be looking forward to that.

Gotta love Yahtzee when he gets these 800+ posts reviews.

Know who I love? Yatzee thats who I love.

Awe Man, this thread has Subjected to Godwin's Law. Abandon Intelligent Debate, all ye who enter here.

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