Zero Punctuation: Webcomics

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linkages555: Yahtzee is a well established professional troll. Thats what makes him so great.

Sylocat:

Somethingironic:
There are too many words and poor punchlines/jokes. And I don't think it can be said that it's just because he updates too often to develop better artistic skills, writing skills and whatnot, just look at cyanide and happiness, those guys are f'in hilarious.

http://www.explosm.net/comics/1333/
http://www.explosm.net/comics/1332/
http://www.explosm.net/comics/1330/
http://www.explosm.net/comics/1329/

All of these were written this week.

I stand by my claim that a five-year-old could write and draw Cyanide and Happiness, and even the strip's most devoted fans wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

And thats a problem because? People don't go to webcomics to have thought provoking articles on aristotalean logic abd its use (or lack thereof) in modern reasoning, they go there to laugh. Sometimes a cheap laugh like the kicking baby or the un-undead (I say nthe poop joke was not needed) is just what your day calls for.

And if they do try to do boring serious comics, they at least warn everyone, and call it "depressing comics week"

Lord_Seth:
I'm a bit confused as to why a character with "crippling issues" is a reason that no one should like them as a character, but whatever, let's let that issue drop. What I was trying to point out is that without the Creator Breakdown in Evangelion, it probably wouldn't have become as popular, memorable, or influential as it was. It was definitely one of the better pulled-off cases of creator breakdown; if you want to see what's considered a poor example, see Buffy the Vampire Slayer. There's a reason season six of that series is often nicknamed "season sux"; while it had possibly the best episode in the series ("Once More, With Feeling"), soon after that episode it fell into a spiral of pretty much trying to make the characters as unhappy and miserable as possible. But even Buffy slightly spread out the transition into angst rather than throwing it all in at once.

But in the end, I question if this arc in Ctrl+Alt+Del is even an example of Creator Breakdown or the creator using it to try to "cope" with something. From what I can tell it's mostly a case of trying to awkwardly insert DRAMA™ into the strip. So I'm not even certain if the discussion about creator breakdown even applies.

For the most part I've been avoiding criticism of the rest of Ctrl+Alt+Del, because I (kind of) liked it; sure, a lot of the jokes fell flat, but some were funny and I found it at least entertaining. But the miscarriage was so sudden and badly-handled that I can't possibly see any way someone could defend it. "Roomies!" is often criticized for falling into depression, but even that was a gradual shift. I can't really think of anything that tried to cram in DRAMA™ as suddenly and awkwardly as Ctrl+Alt+Del did.

I thought Eva was cool before I saw the creator freak out on us, frankly that detracted from the enjoyment I got out of it.
I've already stated my opinion (which is borderline fact in this particular case, don't get me wrong I wish it wasn't, I wish that the events that lead up to this whole thread never happened it is tragic and unfair, but too few things are fair) on coping through art.

I know, I was mentioning that I'm unsure that what happened in Ctrl+Alt+Del even IS an example of coping through art, and isn't just an example of badly throwing in DRAMA™ because you somehow think it will make your comic better.

Jesus ive gotta say reading though most of these pages of nonsense has made me giggle, i used to know about CAD when it was a part of freepress with several other comics which names escape me now, anyhow my point im sure Yahtzee is laughing at all the stupid comments that have been made and i certainly hope we get another mailbag showdown dedicated to Webcomics!!!

http://www.biggercheese.com/index.php?comic=752

The wasn't the best of the vidoes I've watched, but then I only read the comics my friend IMs me to.
And I think I draw ok"ish" in paint as long as what I'm drawing is 600x, and if I have a mouse to move around, not my finger and and track pad I have to keep clicked on with my thumb limting the rage of my pointer finger to draw with.

Spacehouse:
how does you spell shi-le-li?

Believe it or not, it's spelled "shillelagh". Gaelic is weird.

But of course I only know this because of this.

I am a sad and pathetic creature.

Thanks for the info McChicken! I went and looked at Yahtzee's list and sure enough he liked it. BUT! He didn't like Dr.McNinja. I wonder why? I REALLY like Dr. McNinja.

Man people are still posting stuff on here? Geez CAD sucks end of story. :3

El Mexicutioner:
Man people are still posting stuff on here? Geez CAD sucks end of story. :3

Thought-provoking first post. You have completely re-shaped my outlook on the webcomic.

thebobmaster:

El Mexicutioner:
Man people are still posting stuff on here? Geez CAD sucks end of story. :3

Thought-provoking first post. You have completely re-shaped my outlook on the webcomic.

Do I sense sarcasm?

I hope you do, Majick.

I think Yahtzee needs to stick to what he does best- VIDEO GAME Reviews.

I mean, god forbid a writer should write about something important to him. That's just unheard of.

Indigo_Dingo:

Sylocat:
I stand by my claim that a five-year-old could write and draw Cyanide and Happiness, and even the strip's most devoted fans wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

And thats a problem because? People don't go to webcomics to have thought provoking articles on aristotalean logic abd its use (or lack thereof) in modern reasoning, they go there to laugh. Sometimes a cheap laugh like the kicking baby or the un-undead (I say nthe poop joke was not needed) is just what your day calls for.

Well, to each their own, but my point is that I don't believe that the people who make C&H really think that what they are making is GOOD.

And if they do try to do boring serious comics, they at least warn everyone, and call it "depressing comics week"

I find pretty much all their comics depressing.

Razzle Bathbone:

Spacehouse:
how does you spell shi-le-li?

Believe it or not, it's spelled "shillelagh". Gaelic is weird.

Tell me about it. When I was 15 or so, my mom and me took a Celtic singing class (in one of life's little ironies, I still remember some of the lyrics, but I have no idea why we signed up in the first place), they had to provide two separate books for us: One with the lyrics as they were written, and one with the phonetic pronunciation. It was a rare occasion on which I ever saw a similarity between the two. How do you think "Raghallaigh" is pronounced?

Of course... this has nothing to do with the topic, so forget I said anything. ^_^;

Hello. I registered here to post my view, to not flame others, webcomics, ZP, or anything along those lines. I have just read all 24 pages of comments, and wish to offer a different point of view. I will not say if it is better or worse then any other comic, and I'm not going to get wrapped up in frivolous debate on the matter,

I have been a huge fan of Zero Punctuation for quite some time and enjoy the videos. CAD on the other hand, I only first saw about 2 days ago. But, I must point out, not because of this forum or the video. I found it trying to understand the explosm comic, many of us have seen, which parodies the Lilah's miscarriage and Ethan's discovery. Now, I had no idea what the comic meant or was even a reference to, until two days ago. Somehow, I stumbled upon a link which took me to the CAD homepage. I began viewing the comics, newest to oldest, and what did I find..... The miscarriage. After then looking over the news, on a hunch, I found the text used in the explosm comic. I was a bit stunned, and I wanted to know what the miscarriage was all about (As in why did it occur/backstory). But, rather then troll forums, I just went to the very start of CAD, and read every, single, strip.

So, I have experienced CAD from the beginning of honestly not giving much attention to the jokes, but more to the plot and story. My personality is drawn towards solving the unknown, or what I don't understand. I feel that is one reason I read novels in single sittings and enjoy the sciences, but I digress. After catching up fully I have to say, I couldn't give two shits about the writer, the humor (Which as a
gamer I DO get), or the evolution of the art work. But, as someone who came at this looking to see charecter development and a plot, I enjoyed CAD very much. Now, I KNOW will take flack for that statement. But, I'm going to continue to follow the comic closely. WHY? Because I want to know how it "ends" in a sense.

I need to note, the reason I believe the miscarriage did not piss me off, or turn me away from the comic immediately (Unlike others), is that I didn't know any backstory, or even realize it was a gaming comic.

Also, as odd as it may sound, I have identified with the characters in regard to loosing a child. While I have not suffered or had a family member with a miscarriage, myself, my brother, and children I know of from other families we extremely premature at birth, and had almost no chance of survival. The stress and heartbreak can destroy or strengthen families, as I have seen firsthand. I feel that is why I'm driven to see how Ethan and Lilah turn out, because I, in an odd way, do care about the characters,

So, to sum up this late-night rambling, I wanted to explain how a humorous, gaming-based comic, though a different set of circumstances, can for one reader, never even have humor concern them. Yes, I do laugh at some material, but in the end, all I want to know is what happens next.

Yahtzee isn't funny.

He's hilarious.

This could actually go well with your Hat Man Stick Figure. I'd bookmark it right away!

People from the www.GRevForums.net community are a very big fan of yours. We always look forward to your next video!

Why do so many people seem to just stumble across CAD then some how end up defending it? However I digress a little here, what I wanted to say was character development? Then I die laughing. CAD has no character development and you know what is worse this miscarriage is going to be forgotten soon enough and then will be nothing other than a reset button. A RESET BUTTON (this fact alone makes it horribly offensive), it is not character development there are no characters to develop. If the child had been born there could have been some attempt at character and then maybe some development of that new found character but that is never going to happen.

Really go back and look at all the strips and tell me how Ethan's character evolves. Seriously I would like to know what any one could take as it or you know just what some one could mistake for being real characterisation. As it is you have the "zany" self insert, straight man and love interest there I have written down all the character you could get out of it.

TaintedSun:
Yahtzee isn't funny.

He's hilarious.

This could actually go well with your Hat Man Stick Figure. I'd bookmark it right away!

People from the www.GRevForums.net community are a very big fan of yours. We always look forward to your next video!

Advertising is fun! i was just saying that on www.plugmywebsite.com...

anyways i can't remeber which i'm a gamer and but my flatmate is a causual gamer and girl blah blah blah but i did enjoy it. it might have been CAD. If it was the first "popular" one then it was. It is true that i did get bored of it though, the punchline could generally be predicted after so many squares and i started finding the lead character something of a dick.

Good review. There are far too many CAD-alikes now and i personally never got to the miscarriage storyline, but i don't care for something that horrific in a humour comic. WTF? Yes most comedies go for "Drama" at some point, a sad point in a characters life. But miscarriage? Not cool.

EDIT: Anyone else notice how Digress has become the new buzzword since yahtzee?

I stopped reading CAD when he pulled that, heck it stopped being very funny when there wa one comic that Ethan could have seen some character development, but instead the creator opted to pick the "silly" option. And he wonders why his "choose your adventure" didn't pan out like he hoped it would.

His series is like that of Teen Titans, where each episode plot may not directly involve with each other, but effect future episodes anyway, that is about as much "world" as CAD has.

Of course I only read very few comics, other than VG CAts it's sprite comics like BobandGeorge and 8bit which are sadly ending boo...

If assholes had their own religion Tim Buckley would be one of their saints. Way to go on the CAD-bashing. Easy, but fun. My own take on CAD is that anyone who likes it either has a terrible sense of humor, an IQ below 90, or both. Anyone who thinks CAD is funny has something wrong with them, and should give some serious thought to their problem.

CAD is never intentionally funny. It is only funny when Buckley somehow deviates from his usual shit, and it is then funny only for that reason. It becomes an inadvertent non-sequitur. It's funny like someone who eats at Burger King regularly going into McDonalds and ordering a Whopper, actually believing that McDonalds sells Whoppers. You laugh because he's fucking clueless, not because he himself is funny.

As for gaming webcomics I actually like, PA is the only one, because it's kind of funny. Every other gaming webcomic I've seen is very much hit or miss.

I read CAD for probably two or three years, having found it on a webcomic site of some kind where it was ranked #1 in popularity at the time (on their database). I checked it out, found it actually hilarious at times in a kind of "heehee Ethan did a dumb" way. Always found attacks on the guy unfair and all that.

The miscarriage angle just plain pissed me off. I'm sorry he had to deal with that, but if every webcomic author dumped their own personal tragedies into their comics, we'd need something to read to get a break from the fucking comics. We've all dealt with tragedy. Deaths, illness, bankruptcy, the works.

Someone mentioned Strong Bad. When The Brothers Chaps' father died, did they insert a father-death angle into H*R? No, they took time off and came back. Why? Respect for their fans and a realization that while we all DO care about them as people, we don't want that to infiltrate the comics/cartoons we love.

It doesn't help that Buckley's writing was so inept it was just painful.

I like CAD, and people saying oh well you have to be dumb to like it etc etc are really friggin closed minded. Okay so someone put some real life issues into a comic, into their work or form of expression, is that so surprising? I'll admit CAD isnt always amazing, and many a strip has left me feeling empty, but still it has its moments. To insult the comics writing is a fruitless effort, because he has so many fans already, and comics online of that variety are not well known for being amazing tales. People who get pissed off by such inserts of issues etc need to realize that you wont always like what someone puts out, and that you can just skip it. It shouldn't piss you off, its not like anyone owes you anything.

However I do agree with yahtzee in that alot of the comics are pretty lame, easy to do, and lack a certain amount of real creativity, not to mention there are so many clone strips, such as the mario and luigi gay thing etc etc. However these things will thrive because we are creatures of habit

Satoz:
I like CAD, and people saying oh well you have to be dumb to like it etc etc are really friggin closed minded. Okay so someone put some real life issues into a comic, into their work or form of expression, is that so surprising? I'll admit CAD isnt always amazing, and many a strip has left me feeling empty, but still it has its moments. To insult the comics writing is a fruitless effort, because he has so many fans already, and comics online of that variety are not well known for being amazing tales. People who get pissed off by such inserts of issues etc need to realize that you wont always like what someone puts out, and that you can just skip it. It shouldn't piss you off, its not like anyone owes you anything.

However I do agree with yahtzee in that alot of the comics are pretty lame, easy to do, and lack a certain amount of real creativity, not to mention there are so many clone strips, such as the mario and luigi gay thing etc etc. However these things will thrive because we are creatures of habit

Appealing to popularity? That's a form of fallacy, in case you didn't know.

I maintain that CAD is not funny to anyone with a well-developed sense of humor. Finding CAD funny does not neccesarily mean you are unintelligent, but I believe it means you do not have a good concept of humor. Comic timing in particular is apparently an alien concept to Buckley and his fans. For some reason, he also feels compelled to explain the obvious, perhaps because some of his fans really are just a bit too slow to get the joke otherwise. He also tends to make jokes that have already been made (and better) all over the internet, though he only does this on occasion.

Even if it was funny, it would probably be just as much so without any images, because Buckley seems to be unwilling or unable to exercise any artistic talent beyond the mediocrity he has shown the world so far.

I do get pissed off at Buckley as a person, too, but not because of CAD... just because he's an arrogant, narcissistic moron who seems largely devoid of any virtue.

I didn't even know what CAD was, until I read the comments here.. and seriously, who puts a miscarriage in a joke webcomic.. that's just...wtf.

Anyways, this review made me lol the entire time, so true about webcomics.

ComradeJim270:

Appealing to popularity? That's a form of fallacy, in case you didn't know.

I must thank you for posting this sentence, it lead me to a web site I feel much smarter for reading.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Quite frankly, I don't find most web comics all that funny. So it's a lot like the newspaper funnies section. I haven't laughed at them since I was eight. No wait. Not even then did I laugh.

Video game web comics are even worse because... Well, know how when you're hanging out with your friends and one other guy who's not usually part of your group is there and one of your friends says "orange marbles" and everyone bursts out laughing except the new guy because he wasn't there when whatever happened that involved orange marbles happened? Well, that's video game web comics in a nut shell. It's all one big in-joke. I have never laughed at Penny Arcade and fail to see why anyone would ever find it funny. it just has the worst comic timing ever, and it's a comic strip. Four panels, boom. How do you fuck that up? I don't know, but they do it with alarming regularity. Even after the joke is explained to me by some kind soul, it's obvious to me that the joke would have been better if it had been done... well, usually not at all, but done differently would have been an improvement if that wasn't an option.

As far as the CAD thing goes,... I have no idea what it is and if it's as bad or worse than Penny Arcade, I don't want to know about it. But the guy who draws it sounds like needs lit birthday cake candles dripping searing hot wax onto his flabby nipples.

ComradeJim270:
I maintain that CAD is not funny to anyone with a well-developed sense of humor. Finding CAD funny does not neccesarily mean you are unintelligent, but I believe it means you do not have a good concept of humor. Comic timing in particular is apparently an alien concept to Buckley and his fans. For some reason, he also feels compelled to explain the obvious, perhaps because some of his fans really are just a bit too slow to get the joke otherwise. He also tends to make jokes that have already been made (and better) all over the internet, though he only does this on occasion

Now see, I maintain that people who feel the need to lecture others on something as subjective as a sense of humor, decrying that one thing is "funny" and another "isn't" in some vague manner that ultimately boils down to "My opinion is the only one that is right and I am constantly threatened by the concept of disagreement" really lose the crux of their argument because they can't just stop at criticism of the work. They need to include base insults about its fandom.

Lol that was a spantacular video, had me non laugh laughing in the office (laughing in your head while gagging yourself with your hand as not to be found out for not working)....... xD

Rebochan no humour is not entirely subjective, just like art is not entirely subjective. Humour does have rules, it might be a little loose with them but they do exist. Buckley does more make a good 4 panel joke, he will drop the punch line to early leaving the rest of the comic as a waist, timing is one of the most important things in comedy. Comics are also a visual medium, the art is important to the joke (does not have to be great but has to be fitting) copied art just does not cut it if you want people to identify with the characters. I would like to see you to go up to a professional comedian and tell them there is no such thing as a good joke only opinions.

Oh and the AD forums are back up. Buckley's reply? That he will never listen to criticism making him any thing but an artist.

rebochan:

ComradeJim270:
I maintain that CAD is not funny to anyone with a well-developed sense of humor. Finding CAD funny does not neccesarily mean you are unintelligent, but I believe it means you do not have a good concept of humor. Comic timing in particular is apparently an alien concept to Buckley and his fans. For some reason, he also feels compelled to explain the obvious, perhaps because some of his fans really are just a bit too slow to get the joke otherwise. He also tends to make jokes that have already been made (and better) all over the internet, though he only does this on occasion

Now see, I maintain that people who feel the need to lecture others on something as subjective as a sense of humor, decrying that one thing is "funny" and another "isn't" in some vague manner that ultimately boils down to "My opinion is the only one that is right and I am constantly threatened by the concept of disagreement" really lose the crux of their argument because they can't just stop at criticism of the work. They need to include base insults about its fandom.

Yeah. CAD is bad, because his fans are stupid. That's THE reason, and yes, ALL his fans are stupid.

Damn, it's hard to sound sarcastic through text.

Video was quite entertaining, but not as funny as the 850-comment thread that it spawned :P Yes the guy is ranting... that seems to be his "thing". I happen to like rants like that, but appreciate that some find them annoying (or so people keep telling me when I'm on one...)

CAD is, in my opinion, poorly drawn and very, very poorly written... From what I've read of it, the joke is usually "see the stupid gamer be a prick and be proud of it, haha". This is even less funny then normal when it's aplied to a subject such as miscarriage...

Most webcomics due truly suck, why? Well, if they were really good, would they still only be webcomics?

Personally, I only regularly check GUcomics and Applegeeks. Both because of the artwork mostly, though sometimes they can be quite funny as well. There might be more out there that are great, but I don't know them :)

What I don't get is why everyone is getting so upset about both this clip and Tim Buckley... Don't like the clip? Don't watch the next one... Don't like Tim? Don't read his webcomic... problem solved!

The internet has given many people a creative outlet, for better or for worse... Overall I'm happy with this, since amongst all the crap some gems can be found from time to time.

The trick is to find and appreciate the gems, and avoid the crap :) Just like in real life!

This was pure awesome. CAD deserves getting kicked in the head.. in fact.. I'm going to make an exception.. I'm going to go on the CAD forums to see wether someone has reacted there.

Worsle:
Rebochan no humour is not entirely subjective, just like art is not entirely subjective. Humour does have rules, it might be a little loose with them but they do exist. Buckley does more make a good 4 panel joke, he will drop the punch line to early leaving the rest of the comic as a waist, timing is one of the most important things in comedy. Comics are also a visual medium, the art is important to the joke (does not have to be great but has to be fitting) copied art just does not cut it if you want people to identify with the characters. I would like to see you to go up to a professional comedian and tell them there is no such thing as a good joke only opinions.

But see, those *are* valid critiques and I never said people shouldn't make them. My only beef is when someone feels that they haven't gone far enough and need to personally insult those who disagree with them. Well, that and the hatred for CAD shown here makes me wonder if Tim Buckley may have shot a few sainted mothers or instigated the Holocaust. Seriously people...it's just a webcomic.

Anyway, the main difference here is that one is an attempt to show why something is or isn't working. The other is just base insults against those who disagree. You may notice I never got on Yahtzee for this - because he's not exactly subtle that he's expressing his opinion and the entire short was his justifications for it. He certainly rips on fans, but when you describe yourself as a general misanthrope week after week, it's actually funny and not just a bunch of low blows.

Oh and the AD forums are back up. Buckley's reply? That he will never listen to criticism making him any thing but an artist.

He may be a forum nazi, but the last few times I got curious and dug through his forums, they were completely troll infested. No, it wasn't criticism - it was just rampant flaming. I had seen that threads of legitimate criticism (i.e. unrealistic, bad attempt to change tone) were not locked. Meanwhile there were at least five threads from the same self-righteous troll screaming about his freedom of speech being taken away because he couldn't start threads calling Tim a douchebag.

And you know, I do admit that the difference between "preserving the integrity of art" and "refusing to take criticism" always seems to fall under whether you like the artist in question. John Krisfalusci's prima donna antics are notorious, but he's hailed as a creative genius. Tim Buckley...not so much. Actually, I think somebody had the balls to compare him to Robert Mugabe in this thread. Yea...if you make a legitimate argument about the comic, like criticising its art, story direction, lack of humor, that's one thing. You compare the author to an African dictator, you're not exactly showing off your massive intellect there.

I'd liken TB and CAD to a cult leader who has built up a congregation of worshippers controlled by their leader due to their own lack of identity, in such that they need to feel they belong and are contributing something to the said cult of CAD.

TB controls the image of CAD from within his boundries as best he can - meaning mass censorship. He has to maintain his position, and will never improve or get 'funny' due to his acceptance of his current status.

That is the basis upon which CAD has been built.

I really don't see why so many people are getting so worked-up about this. He's not bashing CAD. In fact, he barely even hints about that as a specific web comic. He's talking about comics in general.

A friend of mine read an article that was almost the same thing as Yahtzee's review, though. He showed it to me and it actually looks like Yahtzee didn't really come up with an original video here... think maybe he plagiarized?

I'll get the URL to the article if I can find it again.

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