Zero Punctuation: Eve Online

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TaboriHK:

EDIT: And since we're going with that analogy, you do have to pay to play EVE, remember. So in essence you're still buying a busy hooker who apparently is "the shit."

backfired lol.

I actually agree whole heartedly. As he said in the Tabula Rasa review, he Hates MMorpgs. So its not likely hes gonna give them a fair shake. If you go into a game with the "Lets see what flavor of shit sandwich this game will be" mindset, then however good the game is yer still gonna be getting a review of a shit sandwich.

There's a difference between uncompromising and unfair. He doesn't wake up every Wednesday looking forward to shitting on the faces of MMORPG crowds. He said that while WoW was not his idea of fun it was probably the best the genre had to offer, with no negative follow-up, which means that even though he doesn't enjoy it, it's not necessarily unenjoyable.

TaboriHK:
He said that while WoW was not his idea of fun it was probably the best the genre had to offer, with no negative follow-up, which means that even though he doesn't enjoy it, it's not necessarily unenjoyable.

Thing is, wow is not that.

Wow is a grinder with no purpose. It requires no IQ or intellect, a credit card is all thats required and thats how it was designed. It was designed for casual players who could 'get into the game after 5 minutes' because they are casuals and don't want any challenges.

So when he claims wow is the best of the genre, it makes him look unqualefied to make such a judgement.

You are absolutely 100% wrong. Raid something halfway difficult and you'll understand why. That statement alone makes me question your ability to judge, since you are clearly doing the exact same thing you claim Yahtzee to be guilty of.

Buddahcjcc:
The first fight I ever got into in EVE was when I wandered into the wrong place and got zapped and podded by guys in battleships. My frigate (the only ship I could fly at the time - we didnt get that neat 800,000 starting SP bonus you newbs do)

FYI, I'm a 2005 player. I started with 90,000 SP. I ain't no newb ^_^.

dyou know what the best thing about EvE is?

The idiots slating it on this forum dont play it ^.^
their loss :D

jeesus its a game..........

nastykerm:

TaboriHK:
Yes. EVE for the first few weeks is about as exciting as a clerical job, with lofty promises of epic PVP combat too far to reach for the average gamer. Just because you have extreme patience doesn't mean you should lack the inability to acknowledge that this is a niche game for a niche crowd, and that not everyone is going to love it.

Dont get this the wrong way, but imagine if one viewed girls in the same fashion. Why spend time get to knowing a nice girl and then eventually get in her pants when you can just buy a hooker and get dirty after 5 minutes?

Just as in RL, something is worth the wait. And sometimes the wait is a part of the fun. If, you can see the big picture that is.

It depends. Are you having sex just to have sex or because you enjoy being intimate with girls you're attracted to. If you're seriously thinking "should I go do a hooker or my girlfriend" it's the former. If you're just trying to have sex you should go get a hooker. If you want to be intimate than you should go get a girlfriend. There's no other option anyway :) .

yourkie1921:

nastykerm:

TaboriHK:
Yes. EVE for the first few weeks is about as exciting as a clerical job, with lofty promises of epic PVP combat too far to reach for the average gamer. Just because you have extreme patience doesn't mean you should lack the inability to acknowledge that this is a niche game for a niche crowd, and that not everyone is going to love it.

Dont get this the wrong way, but imagine if one viewed girls in the same fashion. Why spend time get to knowing a nice girl and then eventually get in her pants when you can just buy a hooker and get dirty after 5 minutes?

Just as in RL, something is worth the wait. And sometimes the wait is a part of the fun. If, you can see the big picture that is.

It depends. Are you having sex just to have sex or because you enjoy being intimate with girls you're attracted to. If you're seriously thinking "should I go do a hooker or my girlfriend" it's the former. If you're just trying to have sex you should go get a hooker. If you want to be intimate than you should go get a girlfriend. There's no other option anyway :) .

I'm not quite sure what he's arguing anymore.
But i'm pretty sure he's comparing EvE to sex from that.

AngryMan:

Buddahcjcc:
The first fight I ever got into in EVE was when I wandered into the wrong place and got zapped and podded by guys in battleships. My frigate (the only ship I could fly at the time - we didnt get that neat 800,000 starting SP bonus you newbs do)

FYI, I'm a 2005 player. I started with 90,000 SP. I ain't no newb ^_^.

wasnt aiming at anyone in specific just all the newbs that start with 800,000 sp like they do now

Laice:
I dont come and piss on your car because i think its a shite colour.

Would be a valid argument if we were on EVE-O
But we're not

and comparing EVE to sex is very very very sad....

Buddahcjcc:

and comparing EVE to sex is very very very sad....

IT was an analogy. I can compary it with peeling a banana if the subject of sex makes you sad.

TaboriHK:
You are absolutely 100% wrong. Raid something halfway difficult and you'll understand why. That statement alone makes me question your ability to judge, since you are clearly doing the exact same thing you claim Yahtzee to be guilty of.

So you are a wow player/former player? The plot thickens.

I think it's telling how the best defense put forth by EVE fans is that Yahtzee was essentially playing the game incorrectly, or at least playing in such a way as to eliminate any possible fun.

I played the EVE trial as well, and in a similar manner as Yahtzee (that is, I played as though I might stop playing shortly rather than assuming I had any real future with the game). I assumed, like anyone playing a trial should, that there was a large portion of the game that would be unavailable to me in the relatively short time I had to play. Still, never during the trial did anything I saw in-game suggest to me that I wasn't playing the game "correctly". I trudged through the boring tutorial, I completed missions, I shot some things and mined others, I flew around an explored; I did everything the game suggested I do and even messed around a bit on my own. Once again, I never got the slightest hint that I wasn't playing like any regular EVE subscriber did.

And it was boring. Terribly so. The game had no hook; nothing to convince me to stick around and wait for things to get better. I'm not talking about "instant gratification", I'm talking about the game not presenting me with any goal or mechanic that I felt would be worth sticking around to watch unfold. If people like Yahtzee and myself are "playing it wrong", why does the game allow us to do that? If we're supposed to create our own fun, don't you think it's a tall order to charge a person for a blank canvas and then expect them to paint their own masterpiece in 14 days?

The problem is this is a sandbox where aliences like RedSwarm and BOB kill each other. EVE is too similar to the real world sport section - some teams make it a second (or even first) job while others go to get some funn. The point of the game is not to get the best equipment and kill all of the boses (although i find the thought that i would get a carier in about 150 days satisfiing). Its about politics, economics, military tactics ect. So if u do get a corp (or join one) u get into all this. The problem is it is a bit hardcore. You do need a bit (well a lot) of experience to get to that.

So if u dont whant to play epic pvp or create an emprire of your own and play politics (u might get even asasinated) dont really bother.
Becouse it takes didication not in caracter skill training but in personal player traing.

NRooster:
I think it's telling how the best defense put forth by EVE fans is that Yahtzee was essentially playing the game incorrectly, or at least playing in such a way as to eliminate any possible fun.

I bet chess is boring also if you expect pleasure after 3 minutes of playing. Some games are more complex than others, you cant get to know a complex mmo like EVE by simply sctratching the surface.

nastykerm:

TaboriHK:
You are absolutely 100% wrong. Raid something halfway difficult and you'll understand why. That statement alone makes me question your ability to judge, since you are clearly doing the exact same thing you claim Yahtzee to be guilty of.

So you are a wow player/former player? The plot thickens.

Yep. My guild is currently working on Illidan. I know it's a little late but I'm on a backwater server with not many people so it's actually quite an accomplishment.

Just like to say I loved the review, Yahtzee's reviews crack me up every week.

I've been playing eve since 2006 and some of the pro-eve comments seem to be missing one important point that is what IMO makes eve different from all the other "grind" MMOs out there.

It's to my knowledge the only MMOs that actively allows players to pirate, steal, scam and spy on other players. Its the freedom to choose how you want to play the game that attracted me to eve in the 1st place.

Also infiltration sabotage and theft from player run corporation is all completely allowed and actively performed in the game on a regular basis.

All the comments about "you have to join a corporation to enjoy the game" are not strictly true, although this is the fastest way to learn the game, especially pvp. One of the aspects I enjoy most in eve, is going out solo, deep into hostile territory, looking for juicy targets to kill. The satisfaction you get from blowing up somebody's shiny expensive spaceship who does nothing but grind NPCs to accumulate wealth (lovingly referred to a carebare in eve) is what keeps me playing.

This being said, eve seems to be going the way of other MMOs as it gets more popular, as its creators seem to be increasingly introducing changes that protect the people that are only interested in the grind, as its these WOW style players that bring the money in.

Eves not perfect, the learning curve is horrendously long, and IMO its impossible to enjoy any of its main traits on the trail.

If you wish to enjoy the game instantly the only way todo this is to buy a pvp character for about $500

FishMittens:

Also infiltration sabotage and theft from player run corporation is all completely allowed and actively performed in the game on a regular basis.

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's "allowed" as if its OKAY to do so. The option to do so is there, just like the option to steal a snickers bar from a store, but it doent make it alright to do it.

I should point out that while Yahtzee calls WoW like every other MMO a mindless grindfest, and I completely disagree, I am still able to laugh and have a sense of humor about it. This is sort of like getting pissed off when you get burned at a roast. You can't show up and expect people to pull punches, that's what they are there for. Of course Yahtzee is going to characterize our genre (because I am an MMO player too) as mindless and for people who love to torture themselves, because A: that's funny and B: it's what the Joe Gamer crowd thinks anyway. Shut up and get with the bit. This review isn't going to scare anyone away that wouldn't have been put off by the game itself anyway.

yes but in the snickers bar example you you get caught and the store owner calls the police (in this case CCP) the cops dont tell the shop owner "welcome to life" whereas in the game they will tell you "welcome to EVE" because unless you use an exploit, it IS allowed to do it.
The first time I ever got scammed, I petitioned CCP an they told me that scamming is a part of the game and to "get used to it"
and as far as THESE guys go they seem to be the rejects that get banned from other games and come to EVE because its a haven for those guys. What gets you banned in other games is usually cool in EVE.

Hey everyone, first post here and all. I've played Eve from Beta until 2005, and then on and off until late 2007, and I honestly think it got gradually worse and moved away from how it was originally. The piracy part of the game was made increasingly difficult because of carebears crying out loud on the forums. First they introduced low sec sentry guns at gates, well, pirates found a way around it. Then they changed the security loss system, well, pirates found a way to work with that. Then warp to zero is introduced, which suddenly required pirates to bring bigger numbers. Then the empire war system was changed around to make it no longer valid, and it was changed again to make it even less of an option. So woop-di-friggin-do, piracy gets gradually pushed to 0.0, which is maybe where it belongs, I won't argue that, but lets look at the reality of things - there isn't enough 0.0 left. Its all hogged by player alliances the size of a small european country.

Those who rather play in small numbers, with a core of good friends in the corp working together, are left to rot in empire. That is something that was WAY different in the beginning of Eve. Notice please that empire piracy only began coming to life back then because there was no serious need to go to 0.0 for many players. Pirates tend to roam where their prey is, right? I never wanted cheap kills or zero risk PvP, I (and many others who chose piracy) didn't want to play with 1000+ players to achieve anything. That is my main point and what all these changes have basically left players with who want to achieve anything significant in the game. I have to add here though that I was, infact, in a few 0.0 alliances during my run in Eve, but usually only for a short while. The old Curse Alliance in 2004/2005 (I was in Atuk) and then in Forsaken Empire (Space Invaders) if anybody reading this is an old enough player to remember them, and both were great fun, but sadly an exception to the other experiences I made in 0.0 alliances.

The idea of skilltraining while you are offline is actually something I like other than Yahtzee, but when you think of it, it takes months and months to be able to get into a ship that is better than averagely fitted and piloted (these days anyways, also was different back then). That, especially considering Yahtzee started the game with a noob character, can be very off-putting I suppose, especially because Eve went live 5 years ago and you KNOW that you won't catch up to any player who started out way before you. So while I think that you can't judge Eve within 2 weeks of trial, Yahtzee has made a few very valid points on the state of Eve today.

Last but not least, with all the added content CCP have put into the game, Eve is no longer a grind-free game (I think it was in its early days). Ships and equipment that was added later on (all the Tech 2 stuff) is so high in price that infact, you are now grinding for money while before, if you were a bit smart you could get by (I am talking from a PvP/pirate perspective here) just on the pirate/PvP'er profession you picked in the game. That is no longer possible. So you are left with PvE missions, mining or npc hunting which all are mind-boggingly boring, and an insane time sink on top of that. I tried and hated it, and honestly, I am not playing a mmo to fight npc's (which is why I shun the genre meanwhile and why I could never play any other mmo to begin with). And then, along comes factional warfare, PvP for empire people on a supposedly grand scale. I wasn't around in the game anymore to try it (and prolly wouldn't have the faction standing to do so anyways), but its all just artificially added empire PvP with nothing but a canonic meaning. I don't care for that in the slightest honestly, but I digress .. those like me who prefer small scale skirmish PvP have most likely left the game already too.

yes but in the snickers bar example you you get caught and the store owner calls the police (in this case CCP) the cops dont tell the shop owner "welcome to life" whereas in the game they will tell you "welcome to EVE" because unless you use an exploit, it IS allowed to do it.
The first time I ever got scammed, I petitioned CCP an they told me that scamming is a part of the game and to "get used to it"
and as far as THESE guys go they seem to be the rejects that get banned from other games and come to EVE because its a haven for those guys. What gets you banned in other games is usually cool in EVE.

Scams only effect the naive, get used to it. Also if someone scams you I think you're allowed to shoot them. I couldn't imagine that you can't.

yourkie1921:
Scams only effect the naive, get used to it. Also if someone scams you I think you're allowed to shoot them. I couldn't imagine that you can't.

No, you can't shoot players who scammed you. Market scams or whatever you think of are not tied to the criminal timer that a player gets put on him after actually shooting someone else, in which case I believe said evildoer is fair game to anybody within 15 minutes (in empire anyways). I might not be 100% accurate on the criminal timer thing cause they probably changed that meanwhile, but scamming and corp theft never had any ingame repercussions. You could of course declare war on the scammer's corp, but if done with an alt character in a npc corp there is basically no penalty.

They still only effect the naive. And you still COULD shoot them.

yourkie1921:
Also if someone scams you I think you're allowed to shoot them. I couldn't imagine that you can't.

you cant.
imagine it.

I feel this review was rather flawed, not joining a player corp is like err i don't know 'missing the point' id like to say but that's too strong. But that's where the fun with eve is, Building up a corp make friends then blowing the crap out of other people. Simply the single best mmo Ive played and after playing it i imply cant seem o find another mmo thats even close. Even tried WOW and OMG after being chatted up by troll 2 hours after installing the game i quickly removed it and ran and hide under the stairs horrified that people could like such rubbish.

On the time thing it only counts for stealing some ones stuff and only for the person who had stuff stolen. If you are killed in empire (low sec space) you now get Kill rights. Meaning for 1 week or so you can kill them anywhere with no punishment. But scamming pirating etc is all part of the game eve is a harsh game deal with it. also all hostile acts in empire space receive a timer that lasts 15 mins that only stops you using a jump gate and allows gate guns to open fire on you (on sight) in 1.0 (safe space) all hostile acts are met with instant death its all related to the security rating (sec) of a system. 0.0 sec means anything goes and nowhere to run other than to the relative safety of your fellow corp/alliance players.

Buddahcjcc:

yourkie1921:
Also if someone scams you I think you're allowed to shoot them. I couldn't imagine that you can't.

you cant.
imagine it.

You're wrong. You can shoot anyone you desire. You can open fire on a station in 1.0 space if you so desire.

Sometimes not a good idea, but you can do whatever you want.

Laice:
dyou know what the best thing about EvE is?

The idiots slating it on this forum dont play it ^.^

That's movie, book and game reviewers in general, dude. Happens everywhere.

I was saddened by this review. Maybe because I really like eve. But everything said there is true, it was just approached wrong. All that was done, was getting the old checklist and marking the general aspects of a normal MMO and talking about that. Eve is so much more than just the 14day trial. Player run corporations in 0.0 and doing some pvp in lowsec are a major part of said game. They were grossly missing due to a very bias and unfinished review.

Then again Eve isn't an mmo you can just sit infront of for 14days and get as much out of it as you can. Might have fitted a t1 frigate and gone out hunting in lowsec, see what that feels like. In essence eve isn't a game to play 5h every day after you get home from work.

Of all the MMO's i've played up until now, none compare to eve and the little moments you get when you pvp or do fleet battles. Or even do a basic go there and kill something mission. Most memorable time was a small 4 vs. 4 fleet battle with my corp mates, my heart was racing and i was full of adrenaline. That was awsome and not one game ever has given me such a rush.

Why would I play EVE...training learning skills and such for months until I finally gain enough courage to venture into low-sec only to be annihilated in 2 seconds by a gatecamp. There is no balance in EVE. It's impossible. I played for almost 2 years...lived in high-sec, low-sec, and null-sec for significant periods of time and I had a fair fight only a handful of times. People will usually only fight if they have superior numbers, and they have good reason to as superior numbers nearly always wins. In this way the penalty for losing, as unique as it is, actually works against the game. If you penalize a player for losing, he's likely to only engage when he knows he can win. Balanced battles are very fun but they are so few and far between...you end up roaming around for hours just for the hope of a fair fight and usually you're disappointed. And even if you join a big fleet and have the pleasure of fighting another large fleet, I hope you like wondering if your modules are even turned on as you watch a slideshow of chaos.

Why not just play a game like Guild Wars where balanced, fun, strategic PvP is a click away. Where everyone is on an even footing and player skill and planning rather than sheer numbers determines the victor. Where a veteran player has no tangible advantage at all over a new player who created his account a week ago.

If you're looking for MMO-style PvP, why even bother with EVE?

I played EVE for 3 years (2004 to 2007) and yes, it is crap. The actual gameplay is aneurysm-inducing boring (Yahtzee really does justice to how boring EVE combat is with the kicking shins analogy - it is EXACTLY like that), which it attempts to make up for by being open and freeform.

The problem is, being free to do any number of boring things doesn't make those boring things any less boring. Because they're boring.

Yes, you can claim deep space as your own, but then you have to fight boring battles to do so (which largely consist of two large blobs of spaceships focus firing at 1 opposing ship at a time until either one blob runs away or the server node crashes).

Yes, you can attack players and pirate from them, but that involves fighting even more boring battles (which are the same as above, only replace 'two large blobs' with 'one large blob fighting a single ship with no guns').

Yes, you can build spaceports (and by 'build spaceports' I mean 'enter numbers into an excel spreadsheet so you can get boring resources that are turned into large blobs that are used to fight other large blobs in boring, boring battles').

War in EVE has no tactics, it just consists of blobs, lag, whining on forums, and attrition. Combat is mindless, you just target someone, activate all your guns and wait. It takes no skill, at all - for all of WoW's supposed casual-friendly gameplay, at least you have to think in PvP. At least you have to be present in PvP. In EVE, after targeting and activating guns, you could go AFK and the outcome would still be the same.

Finally, to those saying that corporations vindicate EVE - since when is socialising a game feature? I don't need EVE to socialise with people, and socialising with people doesn't make EVE any less boring, stupid and pointless. It has all the depth of an excel spreadsheet and is as fun as invasive dental surgery sans the anaesthesia.

NeroScuro:
I played EVE for 3 years (2004 to 2007) and yes, it is crap.

And you kept playing for this long... WHY?

The people who are saying that EVE is more than a 14 trial don't get it. As Yahtzee pointed out in one of his first reviews the purpose of a demo (which is what a free trial basically is) is to make you want to play the full game. If the demo (ie free trial) shows the game has major flaws that make it frustrating and unfun to play then why in the name of sanity would any rational person want to pay in the hope that it may somehow magically get "better" later on? It just doesn't make sense.

I think alot of people who try eve have the wrong expectations, killing npcs aint supposed to be "fun", not like in, say wow for example. Its just a way to afford pvp really. Endgame in eve is basiclly killing dudes and taking their stuff, and PVE being boring makes winning pvp fights more worthwhile, you don't just respawn and run back to your corpse. You actually have something to lose and gain(you can loot other players).

NeroScuro:

War in EVE has no tactics, it just consists of blobs, lag, whining on forums, and attrition. Combat is mindless, you just target someone, activate all your guns and wait. It takes no skill, at all - for all of WoW's supposed casual-friendly gameplay, at least you have to think in PvP. At least you have to be present in PvP. In EVE, after targeting and activating guns, you could go AFK and the outcome would still be the same.

It's a sandbox mmo, it is whatever you make it to be, there are no instanced arenas or such, which aint a bad thing. More kinds of pvp doesn't = better. It's not just blobs either, most of my kills are solo or in small gangs, and your comment about it being no tactics is just laughable. Judging by your post I'd say you dont know much about eve or its game mechanics.

There are instanced arenas web, lol - at least there were when i was playing.

Only played for a few months, long enough to fly a BS (basically, heh), before I realised just how much it was costing me to basically grind my way up the tech tree. And yes, I mean grind. What else do 0.0 corps do other than mine, fight each other and harvest npcs for loot. So you're not getting xp - you basically get xp automaically at a flat universal rate - but if you were to make a new char and just sit there learning skills, you wouldn't get very far, cos u need cash, and for that you must grind, as has been mentioned, at some very tedious tasks.

At the end of the day, you are only following in the footsteps of everyone before you, and as the game reminds you, there have been MANY people before you. Barring patching rebalances, the most optimum character builds have already been tried, tested and covered in considerable detail, so it's not like you're going to be able to discover anything new, or pioneer anything. And if you try, chances are that in the long run you're not going to progress as well as someone else starting at the same time. People recommend learning the 'Learning' skill up to a high level at the start, basically going aft for what, at least a week before doing anything, because a few months down the line they'll be doing better than their peers. A game like that I can quickly loose interest in - I like my skill to be a little more immediate and rewarding, not some grandiose life-planning scheme for eventual ultimate victory...

meh, I think I made my point and that I need sleep...

Ouch man very unjust review. although a lot of truth in it still. definitely shows that u only played for 14 days. eve is one of the best games ever created which will be proven when all other games die and are replaced and eve stands strong. i mean u could have made a slight attempt at saying something nice. in wow u die. u cry and walk to ur body. in eve u die and u wana comite suicide in RL because of what you've lost. soooo when you kill someone you damn well know their throwing objects around the room :P no other MMO provides that satisfaction in a pvp enviroment

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