Zero Punctuation: Eve Online

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If I could chip in here - the closest thing to trolling I did was call the people, in this thread, who call eve boring, idiots. I then proceed to explain why, extoll eve's virtues and explain why it isn't a game that would appeal to most people. Badge boy referring to my post as an "incredibly stupid and obvious troll" indicates that he's not exactly arguing on the level here.

He, on the other hand, states that "Women are too shallow and retarded to play this game". To me that fits the definition of a troll, and I would be very interested to hear any argument to the contrary. As, I imagine, would the women who play eve. Calling the person to whom he was replying a hopeless ditz would be appropriate; inaccurately targeting an entire gender is so far over the line I'm amazed that he even tries to defend it.

.

The person you say is my alt isn't -- I'm not that involved here. I have two posts because the only thing on this site which interests me is this thread (it being the single largest collection of pro- and anti-eve sentiment on the internet) and I covered everything I wanted to say about eve with my first post. I'm here to advocate for eve, diagree with anything blatantly inaccurate and, as it turns out, defend eve against people who are apparently doing their best to convince the world at large that the eve playerbase are blathering morons who should be avoided at all costs. Post count and badges have no bearing on the validity of my statements, just as I will be the first to admit that my dreadnought operator badge on the eve killboards is no indication that I'm any good at pvp.

Hope this helps~

Here you go, since apparently you can't be bothered to click on my name and do your research on the single post of mine you haven't read before calling it an "incredibly stupid and obviously troll" http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.70442?page=22#2417119

A direct link can't be too complicated for you, can it?

If CCP ever release Walking In Stations for EVE I might start singing its praises. Until then it is bean-counting junk for masochists.

Maybe if you were to hang out with a better class of people than those who are willing to put up with you?

Seriously now, click the link. Read the post. Just because the guy who's been here longer than you hasn't read it doesn't mean it's too late to man up and admit you're wrong.

Or you could try to convince me that using the word 'idiot' once in an extremely long post, then mitigating it in the very next sentence, is trolling. Good luck with that by the way.

i played EVE for several months in early 2007 (4-5, not sure anymore) and this is what i found:

a) even several years after its launch from a tech point of view the game still felt like a beta - first thing i noticed, the game didn't support anti-aliasing, the sound didn't work properly (some sounds effects were abnormally loud, etc). the game was supposed to shine when it comes to large scale battles, but the servers couldn't really handle those; the GUI was like a collection of don'ts from a human-computer interaction course

b) i found myself a PVP corp, full of experienced players, as everyone kept telling me i should. it was run almost exclusively by elitist twats...

c) even though i was training to become a battle pilot from the get go, after several months i was still utterly useless in a PVP fight (enemy sniper ships were too far away, speedy ships - too fast for me to hit (and out of range before i could even lock onto them), battleships - too durable, etc). most nights we would pilot around our sector for hours without meeting any resistance. only few of us were even allowed to talk(!); the famous learning curve didn't bother me - what we spent most of our together doing was plain pointless, humiliating and un-fun...

d) battle missions, my only source of income, were repetitive and unbearably boring; ok, i thought, i'll create a char specializing in the economic aspects of the game to finance my battle pilot... it turns out even though you have multiple character slots you can only train (and thus, effectively, play) one (1) character at a time!?

at some point i calculated that i'll have to do the exact same things, grind the same missions and train, for another 3 months(!) before i could afford the ship i wanted and even much longer if i followed the golden rule of not buying anything that i can't afford to replace at least twice (or was it three times?); that's 3 more months of something i was already bored to tears of. surrounded by assholes. at that point i sold everything, sent the cash back to the corp mate, who had helped me the most, and canceled my subscription.

you can't expect sane people to pay you for 6 months before they start enjoying your game. not when there are fun(!) games with the value and technical polish of, say, Guild Wars around.

Gosh Yahtzee referenced my home town of Cheltenham.

I feel slightly bemused but elated at the same time, what do I do with these conflicting emotions?

Whats the point in a space exploration game when you cant even leave your ship?

beorntheold:
i played EVE for several months in early 2007 (4-5, not sure anymore) and this is what i found:

a) even several years after its launch from a tech point of view the game still felt like a beta - first thing i noticed, the game didn't support anti-aliasing, the sound didn't work properly (some sounds effects were abnormally loud, etc). the game was supposed to shine when it comes to large scale battles, but the servers couldn't really handle those; the GUI was like a collection of don'ts from a human-computer interaction course

That was back before the Trinity engine was released. They wanted a game that could run on very low powered systems. When they released Trinity, there were two graphics packs available, low and high quality.

beorntheold:

b) i found myself a PVP corp, full of experienced players, as everyone kept telling me i should. it was run almost exclusively by elitist twats...

Probably a BoB or Goonsquad corp. I'm in a merc corp right now (one of the top ones in the game) and haven't met an "elitist twat" yet. I won't say they aren't in the game, but they are in every game (I can't count the amount of "elitist twats" I ran into in WOW).

The trick is to find a corp that you enjoy, just like any other game.

beorntheold:

c) even though i was training to become a battle pilot from the get go, after several months i was still utterly useless in a PVP fight (enemy sniper ships were too far away, speedy ships - too fast for me to hit (and out of range before i could even lock onto them), battleships - too durable, etc). most nights we would pilot around our sector for hours without meeting any resistance. only few of us were even allowed to talk(!); the famous learning curve didn't bother me - what we spent most of our together doing was plain pointless, humiliating and un-fun...

Sounds like you had a poor skillplan, or were with poor PVPers. Within a couple of months, you can be useful in a fleet as a tackler or ewar frigate. Also, tactics play more a role that skills. That enemy sniper battleship shouldn't have had traversal tracking on you if you were in a frigate. If you were in a cruiser and doing pvp, your afterburner or MicroWarpDrive should have helped close the distance and keep traversal (though the sig radius with the MWD would make it rough).

The thing is in eve there is ALWAYS a counter. No build is perfect, which is why it is the most balanced game out there.

beorntheold:

d) battle missions, my only source of income, were repetitive and unbearably boring; ok, i thought, i'll create a char specializing in the economic aspects of the game to finance my battle pilot... it turns out even though you have multiple character slots you can only train (and thus, effectively, play) one (1) character at a time!?

at some point i calculated that i'll have to do the exact same things, grind the same missions and train, for another 3 months(!) before i could afford the ship i wanted and even much longer if i followed the golden rule of not buying anything that i can't afford to replace at least twice (or was it three times?); that's 3 more months of something i was already bored to tears of. surrounded by assholes. at that point i sold everything, sent the cash back to the corp mate, who had helped me the most, and canceled my subscription.

you can't expect sane people to pay you for 6 months before they start enjoying your game. not when there are fun(!) games with the value and technical polish of, say, Guild Wars around.

Mission running isn't for everyone, but again sounds like you were not being efficent with it. Within a few weeks you should be running lvl four missions, making around 10-50mil an hour. Also, if you are running missions, that golden rule is out the window as you shouldn't lose your ship often. As for training just one character, it's always been that way. I would love to train three characters instead of just one, but no dice. A good PVP character though should be able to run Missions with little trouble.

Hilarious, seriously eve sucks, there was a 5 kabillion hour tutorial + within the tutorial was a part where you had to wait for a skill to go up

Edzor:
Also, all of you nay sayers might want to read this:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/78203/page/2

and this:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/3908/page/1

Yes, that includes you, Yahtzee!

Oh please, just because what some other "reviewer" may say about the game, doesnt mean Yahtzee or any person not boring enough to find moss growing on a rock fast-paced action will change their minds about this boring game overloved by it's fanbase.

I recently ended my EvE subscription. My main reason being real life circumstances making my internet sub-par to DSL, but also I really dreaded my last month of playing. An important note, I rejoined over the holidays and spent January being excited and trying to get back into the game since my first weeks six months ago. I was disappointed. Anyhow, here's what I wrote in the "Wait, what? You're not going to pay us anymore? But whhhhhhy?!" box.

Moving back home, where the internet doesn't accommodate EvE.

Also, having doubts about my long-term participation with this MMO. It seems that in order to get ahead you have to invest a large portion of time training skills. Time, that I have qualms investing large quantities of in order to get a favorable return on said investment.

Oh, and a quick sidenote I really, really hated spending 20+ hours of my weekend scanning wormholes and their entire contents for my corp to run so I could get a cut of the loot... only to have them run none of them and get no reward for my troubles. That was fun.

I think I prefer the theme park model MMO. Sure the sandbox is a novel idea, but the theme park guarantees reward in exchange for effort.

And one last thing. You don't need to punish the player in order to have them understand that "Space is big". Whenever every activity I do seems to take me on a 10+ gate jump journey, the prospect of travel and therefore said activities becomes incredibly tedious. I want to spend my leisure time doing interesting things, not monotonous time consuming travel. If that's what I wanted to do I would be a truck driver. Atleast they pay me for the trouble, not the other way around.

Ah, I'm done ranting. Keep up the good work, I guess.

Eve is the most boring game I ever saw. I played the 14-day trail 2 times. The second time I could not resist more than 4-5 days. For those who claim that they are so much smarter than the rest of the world, and this is the reason only they can play this so wonderful game, I feel only pity. There was a time I thought I was the most brilliant person of the world. Fortunately, it passed. Some are forever caught in this nightmare.

Fracture_:
Eve rules and your wrong. Great review as always ;)

Third comment and it already hit the fan (in both meanings).

See, Eve is awesome and stuff, but it's the same grind if you don't get out of hisecs. Well, there are occasional suicide-gankers that want all your estamel shineys, but if you are into grind then you are probably so full of ISK you couldn't care less.

I got hooked by a mate who showed me 0.0 on my second week after wanking around in lowsecs and then was recruited by RA just in the start of the '06 spring. Imagine how well that went, hurrr. Never got back to empire for more than a couple of days ever since.

Yahtzee, on the other hand, obviously went down the "regular newcomer" road that is indeed full of boredom, messed up UI and mechanics even i, being a 4yo player, don't fully understand.
But once you hit the ghetto or the wasteland (lowsecs and zeroes) full of trigger-happy assholes you fall in love with Eve.

But then i'm also into serious strategies and simulators...

Anyways these images say it all:
http://www.aslum.net/eve/LearningCurve.jpg
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/150k-1m.png

Marq:
Why the fuck are people still commenting on this?

Oh, it's outraged Eve players who made an account here just for this thread. Even though it is now over one year late. I suppose they're matching the pace of their game.

Damn! Talk about getting caught red handed... and with my pants down aswell. Be gone you evil thruth-seer sorcerer! :P

On subject tho... I enjoy EVE just as much as I enjoy this review. That should leave you something to ponder on for awhile :D

Flankhard:

On subject tho... I enjoy EVE just as much as I enjoy this review. That should leave you something to ponder on for awhile :D

I agree. It's a great review from the perspective of the casual player who doesn't want to talk to other players in the EVE universe. All true what he said. ;)

However, I've been playing EVE for 2 months now and as I see it - older players are literally enlisting trials; it seems unbelievable, but we all know that fresh blood keeps the universe (and the market!) running. So, just like Yahtzee said - it's like having a second job you have to pay for... :)
Unless... Unless You make 300 mil. ISK in a few days to buy yourself a 30 day pilots license extension... Then you're on a second job that won't pay. :D

Of course, I'll still play EVE, it's fun - from time to time...

Enjoy!

I saw this review, and went into Eve expecting I'd hate it.

Sadly, I very much enjoy it, and I am able to fly around blowing shit up if I want just after a half week of lvling skills up. Me thinks Yahtzee didn't ask for help from anyone when he joined.

While I disagree with a lot of what he said...

...yes, we are all bizzaro people with shoes on our heads (in my corp anyway)

(also, yeah, I'd like to see some aliens)

Lets all bear in mind the purpose MMO's serve for different people.

For Kids: they use MMO's as "im bored and dont know what to do" activities, but also its the only way they can talk to their friends because their mom wont let them have a phone, or a facebook, or even an email adress.

For teens: basically out of boredom

For: everyone else: well it's either play an MMO and grind your way to insanity in the game or masturbate all day

Who squeezes toothpaste from the middle?

8 months have elapsed since I last made a comment in this thread and CCP still haven't released walking in stations. Waiting until they do so I can say good things about this game. Until then, Yahtzee is right.

EVE gets fun when you forget how not fun it is.

dududf:
I saw this review, and went into Eve expecting I'd hate it.

Sadly, I very much enjoy it, and I am able to fly around blowing shit up if I want just after a half week of lvling skills up. Me thinks Yahtzee didn't ask for help from anyone when he joined.

The thing with me about EVE is that I couldn't just get the hard grinding part over with; I had to wait weeks to do so. I thought the navigation, while not nearly as bad as Yahtzee was making it out to be, could be quite frustrating at times that you needed to go someplace quickly. Another part of it was that I couldn't pilot the ships I wanted to pilot. And no, I don't mean the Titans, I mean something worth a damn. I felt miniscule in comparison to other players who had mounds of ISK and flew around in the ships I only dreamed of piloting. Lo and behold I came to know they'd been playing for many more months than I had and were the people who called mining fun.

Other than that, I found the whole game -too- large for me. Too vast, as if everything I did made no difference to the world around me. Sure, I had some friends, got friendly with my corporation and whatnot, but in the end, I knew I would never join any corp that was actually competitive and that the big groups out there would inevitably crush my own. Perhaps it was just bad luck on my part, perhaps it's just not the game for me.

A few Hungarian EVE-Online gamers took it upon themselves to accomplish the gargantuan task of creating something that could be considered "EVE-Online's Game Manual".

The currently available version (2.01) has 416 full-color pages and is available as a 66+ MB PDF (or ZIP-packaged, but it's not much smaller that way, still over 55 MB).
The "production value" is pretty much on par with official game manuals (other than some sparsely encountered Hungarian language on the background art and the easy-to-forgive occasional spelling errors, but that's also on par with a lot of game manuals).
The sheer volume of information is staggering. Still, it BARELY COVERS THE BASICS of EVE-Online gameplay :)

It is available completely free of charge from their site:
http://www.isktheguide.com

They were also featured in an article on massively, which is an interview with one of the top people behind this monumental task.
http://www.massively.com/2010/08/29/eve-evolved-the-industrial-sized-knowledgebase

If you were ever turned off by the lack of documentation before you got a chance to try it, or if you tried it but hated it because of the learning curve, or even if you're just mildly interested but never bothered, it won't hurt to take a look at this completely volunteer work... if only for the pretty chapter heading graphics :)

ikalugin:
...And last. CAREBEARS SUCK (people who do safe pve of mining). ...Death to peacefull miners and other carebears. Burn enemies poses. Build outpost. Thats the way.

As someone who is currently trying out a 14-day trial of EVE, congratulations to the above poster for convincing me never to take out a paid subscription and to uninstall this game ASAP. Frankly, if this is the mindset of the average EVE player - and the kind of thing that awaits me if I decide to commit to the game as a paying subscriber...No thanks. I'm finding the overwhelming learning curve difficult enough without the constant, nagging suspicion that all I am is newbie fodder waiting to be robbed, hijacked, attacked and humiliated by the kind of poster who makes comments like those above.

Another potential subscriber deterred by another of EVE's excellent ambassadors.

If that was the attitude of most players, they wouldn't have carebears to target would they?

On the other hand, the ability to find things out for yourself is sort of a prerequisite for playing eve, as is the ability to not give up the first time another player says something you don't like. I think you have made the right choice.

Ignore the jackass, there is room for carebears in the game, we are the ones who build the capital ships they have to buy to fly. If you have any questions in game, shoot me a convo - I play as Aruvqan, and I am a carebear in Mostly Harmless in the Northern Coalition

He is right in most aspect.
I Suppose the thing that I like most about EVE is the PvP actually means something. You have fleets that are tangible, meaning you can lose them, and in the world of EVE virtual money quite literally is real money.
Only game to give me an adrenaline rush while playing, but it does have its shortfalls.

Watching this after having actually spent a fair bit of time playing eve, I'm pretty sure the problem here is EVE is a social game, and Ben is about as antisocial as it is possible to be. The thing that makes eve worthwhile is using that money you worked for and skills you spent all that time training to fight wars over control of profitable regions of space and having a laugh with your corp/alliance as you do so. The parts of the game he experienced in his 14 day trial are merely the means, and by refusing to join a corporation he completely disregarded the end, the fun part of eve, which consists of flying around and blowing other people's shit up.

I gave Eve a brief try, but I found the learning curve to be pretty unforgiving. I think this is a game that requires some real dedication to mastering. If your more casual, like me, it's probably never going to appeal to you.

Does this has to do with the fact that eve has a uncomparable learning curve and you couldnt beat it? well eve online is excel with graphics so what do you want. And it kept me intrested for a long time.

if i ever play this game im going to be a lone pirate. like yahtzee im not going to have anything to do with the corperations (other than robbing them). also i dont see the point in a game (games are fun) having a steep learning curve.

I actually have no problem with a steep learning curve (3 years subbed), after all explain early games and how spectacularly hard they are. Or Supermeatboy

Wookie 1:
I actually have no problem with a steep learning curve (3 years subbed), after all explain early games and how spectacularly hard they are. Or Supermeatboy

Super Meat Boy doesn't have a learning curve. You start playing it and 30 seconds later you know exactly how to do EVERYTHING! You can run, jump, wall-jump and... oh yeah that's it. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it has a steep learning curve.

EVE Online have a steep learning curve. I've been playing the game since 2006 and still I'm unsure how best to approach PVP, I don't really know how complexes work, I haven't the faintest clue how to properly fit more than half the ships in the game, I've yet to run a single level 5 mission, and I still can't run a battleship efficiently.

I am however an expert interceptor pilot, covert ops pilot, and capable fleet commander. I know how to use scanning probes efficiently, I'm very good at navigating wormholes, I know how to manipulate the local markets, and I'm able to quite adequately fly many specialist ships. I've flown in 0.0 alliances in Germinate and Etherium Reach, I've spent a while in the Minmatar Militia, and I've even run my own corp for a while. I'm ALSO a fully capable industrial pilot capable of flying advanced mining barges, ice mining and gas cloud harvesting.

This is an example of a steep learning curve. A game with enough depth that someone can play it literally for years, and still not know how to do a lot of things in game. Like I say, I've been playing EVE for almost 6 years now. Someone who's been playing for 6 months who knows how to use a battleship could seriously screw me over, but then if I'm in the right ship, I could do the same to him.

I like watching this review, it reminds me of how bad a reviewer Yahtzee really is. How able he is to so completely miss the bloody point.

EVE is one of my favourite games because it's exclusive. It has a built in system for getting rid of bad gamers. Those too stupid or immature to understand the game don't play it and it keeps the average age of the EVE player on the good side of 25, as opposed to the average World Of Warcraft or Call Of Duty player, who's 14 years old and generally a bit of a cock. It ensures a level of maturity. Sure, like all games EVE has it's arseholes, but generally it's a game for sociable mature intelligent adults. Basically, Yahtzee, this games "unintuitive" user interface, and complex combat system (which you ignored in favour of just randomly shooting missiles and hoping), is specifically like that as a test. If you're too stupid to understand it, you'll hate it, call it shit and rage-quit so that us superior gamers don't have to associate with you. You sir, failed this test.

Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw, you're too stupid for EVE Online. Such a pity, I expected better from you.

TornadoCreator:

I like watching this review, it reminds me of how bad a reviewer Yahtzee really is. How able he is to so completely miss the bloody point.

EVE is one of my favourite games because it's exclusive. [snip] If you're too stupid to understand it, you'll hate it, call it shit and rage-quit so that us superior gamers don't have to associate with you. You sir, failed this test.

Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw, you're too stupid for EVE Online. Such a pity, I expected better from you.

My experience of EVE was frankly, shit. I must be stupid too to have missed the point of the game; but had I reviewed it I would have been far harsher than Yahtzee. As far as I'm concerned, the game is designed to have enough gamers waiting to level their skills up that they won't play that often, leaving server space for null sec wars and all the high-sec nonsense. It's a board game with pretty graphics with a dice roll for every skill 0-5 - the player with the most "skills" paid for by length of subscription wins, not the gamer with the ACTUAL skill.

Maybe the game opens up after you've paid your subscription long enough to have developed the "skills" for a decent experience... maybe. I'm not going to risk spending a considerable amount of money for a game that is in my opinion incredibly shallow; a game so simple it has to hide behind a maze of spreadsheets, a crappy UI and time dependent skill training (whether you actually log in or not) to give the illusion that it has depth. In my opinion, patience and money are the only requirements for EVE, not intelligence, skill or tactical nouce.

I thought playing EVE was like being forced to read the Daily Mail while waiting for a train that's at the platform but not due to leave for six weeks, while left clicking and pressing some number keys at the right time kinda like Dance Dance Revolution. Meanwhile a guy who's taken that train journey loads of time pisses on my head because that's the kind of thing "superior EVE" gamers do. EVE's devs, realised I wasn't to happy about sitting waiting for the train while the groves in the bench I'm sat on dig into my arse (but they weren't bothered about me being pissed on so much) so they built me a "captian's quarters" with a nicer chair in the hope I'd stick around. I caught a taxi elsewhere.

I remember thinking before I quit, (from sheer apathy and boredom) "I'd rather play Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball than this." I couldn't think of a shallower game, and conveniently it's also full of tits and arses, just like EVE.

-

Look, I'm a fan of space trading games and I'm glad that some people get off on EVE, however I think qualifying yourself as a superior gamer just because you play EVE is going way too far, and calling those of us who can see through the "mask" of EVE's complexity "stupid" is probably the same and pretty damn offensive; the gamers who are truly superior to me do not act in such a manor.

Barciad:
Never played an online RPG (not even one set in space) and never intend to.
Thanks be to Yahtzee for putting my reasons into words that I never could.
What I would like however is a really good space strategy. Something like 'Total War', but with space battles. Maybe, with all the millions they must have lying around (come on, they must have lots of money now, what with having produced one of the most successfull strategy franchises ever - behind Civilisation and everything with the word 'Sim' in it. But anyway, the point is, they must have oodles now) they could buy up the names of certain famous space villians, get George Lucas to whore himself out even more....

This comment foreshadowed Star Wars: The Old Republic. Fancy that. :)

As for EVE, I play quite a bit, and the corporations (some of them, anyway) are pretty awesome, full of nice people. I got into one that takes noobs and teaches them more about the game mechanics than any tutorial could. Strategic-level space battles happen more often than you'd think. I've been in battles with over a thousand other pilots. It's actually pretty awesome, but far bigger than a 14 day trial could cover, and it's not for everyone.

Okay, can't let this slide. Gallente Battleship cannot be trained on trial accounts, Bestowers can't beat Dominixes, and the ships were POINTED THE WRONG WAY!!!

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