Zero Punctuation: Eve Online

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The Dickensian toy store joke was just awesome.

This is the first time that I actally 100% agree with everything you said.
I like (some) mmos and I tried EVE way back when, and I was bored stiff. I am a very casual mmorpg-player, but there was actually NOTHING about that game even remotly interesting..

I agree with Yahtzee. I tried it for one month. The game has more monotony and red tape than the Capitol Building.

yourkie1921:

Arkracer:
EVE is a strange game. I am currently on my seventh or eighth day of my 14 day trial. It's odd in that you could be a really skilled new player, with all the right strategies, and not do very well in PvP due to the time based skills, or you could own a two-year-old character and not know your stasis webifier from your tractor beam.

That's the same with all MMOs.

Also, while being able to train while idle is an interesting concept that I glomp,,

The review is inherently flawed for three reasons

1) He explicitly avoided corporation/alliance play

2) He most likely (based on #1) didn't experience PvP as it was meant to be experienced

Eve is about PvP. Corporations exist as a mechanism to enhance said PvP either through logistics or actually involving yourself in a fight.

Yes there are slow times and eve, but when something goes down it happens FAST.

3) Eve is not a 1v1 game. It was never designed (with a very few notable exeptions... hrmmVagabond) for 1 v 1 encounters. ECM, the various dmg types, interdictors, and a whole slew of other game play mechanisms make pvp anything BUT pounding on each other till one person dies to anyone but the inexperienced.

It's called massively MULTIPLAYER for a reason.

If you tell how you played the game and you review it based on how you played your review can not be flawed for not covering things you've already said you didn't expierience. and for 3, that doesn't prove yahtzee wrong , that proves the combat system is complex.

"The basic role-playing and space simulation aspects of EVE are really just the tip of the iceberg. When players band together to form factions and alliances, the game progresses to a more grand-scale strategic level. Political intrigue, corporate espionage and the very essence of Darwinism bring dimension and depth to the game as the struggle for fame and fortune ebbs and flows with each new day in EVE."

That's right off FAQ page on eve-online.com.

It explicitly states this is a game that is meant to be played on a massive scale.

He basically says "let me start off this review by saying that I intentionally avoided 90% of the game and the parts I did play were designed to COMPLEMENT the said 90%, not complete."

It's like making a lvl 1 character in WoW, trying to PvP, and then saying "PFF this game sucks. I have no abilities, gear, or health!!! WTF!"

see, I love that concept but it is absolutely impossible for me to enjoy one click combat. Which to me seems to be one half of what yahtzee seems to seriously say he hates about this game other than "too complex" and "unintuitive interface" and I don't care about either.

That's because all he did was sit around in a newbie ship and yell "this sucks". That was my point about moving the pawn in chess. If all you know about chess is that pawns move one space forward then you assume chess is simple. If all you know about EVE is that you click a button to fire your newbie missile rack, then you assume EVE is a one-click game.

There are 100s of weapons and 100s of system modules, what you put on your ship completely is up to you and 50% of the battle is in fact outfitting your ship correctly to deal with your opponent. The other 50% is adapting to what you encounter and understanding when you are outmatched. There are no levels or "con" system in EVE, so knowing who is tough and who is meat is completely down to player knowledge and experience.

I gotta say, it's amusing to see how many people still think Yahtzee tries to be fair in his reviews and think they are a good source of information or a good metric to base their game playing decisions on.

These things are entertainment, not news.

I always assumed they were both. Frankly, he's not funny enough anymore to warrant watching just for entertainment.

At the risk of sounding shallow and unimaginative, great job, Yahtzee.
I could go on.......But I won't

There are 100s of weapons and 100s of system modules, what you put on your ship completely is up to you and 50% of the battle is in fact outfitting your ship correctly to deal with your opponent. The other 50% is adapting to what you encounter and understanding when you are outmatched. There are no levels or "con" system in EVE, so knowing who is tough and who is meat is completely down to player knowledge and experience.

That's because all he did was sit around in a newbie ship and yell "this sucks". That was my point about moving the pawn in chess. If all you know about chess is that pawns move one space forward then you assume chess is simple. If all you know about EVE is that you click a button to fire your newbie missile rack, then you assume EVE is a one-click game.

Like I said, if you can be playing chess for 14 days and can't realize how to move ALL the pieces by then either you suck or chess sucks. And is it a one-click game? If I click on an enemy ship and don't get a one-hit kill will my guy continue to shoot at him all by himself with me ocasionally using skills by pressing numbers so I can shoot in a slightly cooler way?

"The basic role-playing and space simulation aspects of EVE are really just the tip of the iceberg. When players band together to form factions and alliances, the game progresses to a more grand-scale strategic level. Political intrigue, corporate espionage and the very essence of Darwinism bring dimension and depth to the game as the struggle for fame and fortune ebbs and flows with each new day in EVE."

That's right off FAQ page on eve-online.com.

It explicitly states this is a game that is meant to be played on a massive scale.

You'd expect they'd be able to make a decent combat system. And no I don't care how complex it is! I care how fun the CORE combat is.

Jack Forge:

eve does need to drastically improve the single player experience however...

answer this question: are u stupid ?
eve is not a singleplayer online

and btw wow is that way *points* ->

oh i forget to add if u look for eve-online drama spy stuff look here
http://www.kugutsumen.com (if u are paranoid use a proxy and after that format your hdd)

Nice review Yatzee. I knew eve would suck so badly.

But please destroy "Spore" that is so Kak(my country term for shit :D).

I was so hoping the games would be banned in my country but luck doesnt ever seen to be on my side.

I hope you destroy the game so badly that it wishes it was living in the core of the sun!!!!

yourkie1921:

There are 100s of weapons and 100s of system modules, what you put on your ship completely is up to you and 50% of the battle is in fact outfitting your ship correctly to deal with your opponent. The other 50% is adapting to what you encounter and understanding when you are outmatched. There are no levels or "con" system in EVE, so knowing who is tough and who is meat is completely down to player knowledge and experience.

That's because all he did was sit around in a newbie ship and yell "this sucks". That was my point about moving the pawn in chess. If all you know about chess is that pawns move one space forward then you assume chess is simple. If all you know about EVE is that you click a button to fire your newbie missile rack, then you assume EVE is a one-click game.

Like I said, if you can be playing chess for 14 days and can't realize how to move ALL the pieces by then either you suck or chess sucks. And is it a one-click game? If I click on an enemy ship and don't get a one-hit kill will my guy continue to shoot at him all by himself with me ocasionally using skills by pressing numbers so I can shoot in a slightly cooler way?

"The basic role-playing and space simulation aspects of EVE are really just the tip of the iceberg. When players band together to form factions and alliances, the game progresses to a more grand-scale strategic level. Political intrigue, corporate espionage and the very essence of Darwinism bring dimension and depth to the game as the struggle for fame and fortune ebbs and flows with each new day in EVE."

That's right off FAQ page on eve-online.com.

It explicitly states this is a game that is meant to be played on a massive scale.

You'd expect they'd be able to make a decent combat system. And no I don't care how complex it is! I care how fun the CORE combat is.

They DO have a decent core combat system. One that gets rid of the whole "I'm a mage fighting a warrior do x,y,andz to win" mentality.

I normally agree with Yahtzee wholeheartedly, but I have to say not this time. I played eve for 8-9 months, and while it has it's faults, its a very different game from pretty much anything else you can hope to play. I guess it's no surprise yahtzees reviewing technique / methodology fell flat here.

The whole point of Eve online is player interaction, you really shot yourself in the foot by shying away from interacting with other players. What you did is basically like reviewing soul calibur but only playing one character and only using the x button. Basically cutting yourself off from 95% of the content and depth.

Eve unashamedly IS a game you have to invent time into, not only just to get anywhere, but to learn the game itself and how it works. When I stopped playing after 9 months due to uni obligations, I was still learning new stuff about the game constantly. There is a huge amount of depth, especially in the game's ecomomy which is 99% entirely player run. Basically every item, ship, anything you buy or use has been made by another player, not miraculously found on the corpse of some goblin.

You cannot expect every game to give you instant reward and gratification within 2 minutes of playing. The 14 day free trail of eve is more like a chance to glimpse a small part of the game, and see that it is good an continue playing. Some things are just too complex to enjoy and understand immediately, but if you persevere the rewards are greater enjoyment and appreciation of something beyond some ammo and the red keycard. You sounded to me more like someone who is angry because he can't play a nice tune on the violin after learning it for 5 minutes - some things just take longer before they start rewarding you. Fair enough if you don't like your games like that, many do though.

In short, you reviewed this in the wrong way if you wanted to enjoy it, and were only ever going to get one outcome if you played the way you did. Your negative review is more a testament to how admittedly inaccessible and complex eve really is, which is why it is so good, in fact.

Oh yeah baby! Couldn't be happier that Yahtzee took aim at one of the MMOs I hate most. The game is a hella-grind where it takes months and months of tedious gameplay (or sleep) to fly a ship that wont immediately vaporize in the face of the many veteran players who enjoy shooting n00bs like tin ducks in a shooting gallery. Hell the amount of skills you gotta train to pilot a small garbage scow is like learning quantum mechanics in order to use a calculator. Not to mention the gazillions of ingame money you have to earn in order to buy and fit a decent ship only to get gang raped by a bunch of anti-social geeks from the Something Awful forums anyways.

And really, what is there to do? The entire ass-backwards economy is based on a military industrial complex. Anything you will ever do in EVE that seems even remotely worthwhile will necessitate being a part of some never ending war machine. It's like the whole reason we left Earth is so that we can be total warmongering twats on an intergalactic scale. Cut out all the superficial fluff of EVE and what you have left is Counter Strike in space, the only difference is that you have to put in the same amount of time into EVE that you would getting a law degree in order to enjoy the same level playing field you would have logging into a Counter Strike match instantly.

I'd rather Star Trek Online.

Eve was honestly one of the few MMOs was excited about when it first came out. I did a trial, and didn't like it. I thought I was the only one, now I know I'm not.

Then again, I don't really like most of the game elements in most MMOs, so I think any MMO would have a similar effect on me. Still, it was funny. XD

jodertio:

Jack Forge:

eve does need to drastically improve the single player experience however...

answer this question: are u stupid ?
eve is not a singleplayer online

and btw wow is that way *points* ->

It doesn't matter, if it's possible to play the game singleplayer than the singleplayer should be good. Just like if it is possible to play the game multiplayer and it isn't good people are going to be pissed.

They DO have a decent core combat system. One that gets rid of the whole "I'm a mage fighting a warrior do x,y,andz to win" mentality.

Look, I don't care about the complexities of building a ship before the fight starts. If I have my dream ship and I click on an enemy ship and I take skills out of the equasion, will I repeatedly attack them and win. Or will it be impossible to win unless you get a one shot kill?

The whole point of Eve online is player interaction, you really shot yourself in the foot by shying away from interacting with other players. What you did is basically like reviewing soul calibur but only playing one character and only using the x button. Basically cutting yourself off from 95% of the content and depth.

HE didn't say he didn't interact with other players, he said he didn't join any corporations. And if the whole point of the game is just interacting with other players isn't it a glorified chat room? And yahtzee was able to beat soul calibur using only one button. If the creators give him a button that will make it so he can win every fight in the fricken game he'll use it.

Eve unashamedly IS a game you have to invent time into, not only just to get anywhere, but to learn the game itself and how it works.

Bull.

There is a huge amount of depth, especially in the game's ecomomy which is 99% entirely player run. Basically every item, ship, anything you buy or use has been made by another player, not miraculously found on the corpse of some goblin.

Which is awesome. This game seems to have a very good thing going for it. However, any game with one click combat or an equivelant, SUCKS.

vYou cannot expect every game to give you instant reward and gratification within 2 minutes of playing. The 14 day free trail of eve is more like a chance to glimpse a small part of the game, and see that it is good an continue playing.

You can expect some reward within 2 days of playing.

You sounded to me more like someone who is angry because he can't play a nice tune on the violin after learning it for 5 minutes - some things just take longer before they start rewarding you. Fair enough if you don't like your games like that, many do though.

"they areIn short, you reviewed this in the wrong way if you wanted to enjoy it, and were only ever going to get one outcome if you played the way you did. Your negative review is more a testament to how admittedly inaccessible and complex eve really is, which is why it is so good, in fact. to nerds what nerds are to normal people".

In short, you reviewed this in the wrong way if you wanted to enjoy it, and were only ever going to get one outcome if you played the way you did. Your negative review is more a testament to how admittedly inaccessible and complex eve really is, which is why it is so good, in fact.

complex, good, inaccessible? depends on how inacessable.

yourkie1921:
If I have my dream ship and I click on an enemy ship and I take skills out of the equasion, will I repeatedly attack them and win. Or will it be impossible to win unless you get a one shot kill?

That's just it. Ultimate skills and ship can mean absolutely nothing against an experienced pilot. The combat in eve IS NOT COMPLICATED. It's deep. Yes, there is a difference.

You can be effective in PvP from day one. That's right. A pilot made 10 minutes ago can be effective in PvP.

Things happen in PvP very very fast. A good PvP pilot is one who A) knows what to do and B) has the ability to keep his cool and react quickly.

Straight knowledge is only half the battle.

Skills and ship types add to PvP but it's the pilots that make it. Apparently this is a turn off to a lot of people.

I'm assuming what Yahtzee did was more akin to fly in and die repeatedly and less a PLayer vs PLayer experience. He was thinking of it as your traditional "SPAM FROSTBOLT HAR HAR" and less "well I died, what happened and what can I do the next time so that won't happen again..."

Ok this review besides from being funny is 100% i would know because i have played eve and like a few months into it i'm like wait.... why am i playing this it's boring. and pvp is annoying because big can't kill small well small can kill big, even thou the guns of a battleship should be able to vaporize the little ships in one hit. also mission are the same bloody thing over and over again. one more thing the learning curve picture showing all the mmorpgs the line for eve online is 100%

If I have my dream ship and I click on an enemy ship and I take skills out of the equasion, will I repeatedly attack them and win. Or will it be impossible to win unless you get a one shot kill?

Nope, you will not win, and it will not be impossible to win.
Eve is not twitch based, but it is heavily tactical. If you have your dream ship there are at least two or three other ships which are a counter to it, if they are flown correctly. That means actually maneuvering the ship and choosing when to turn your guns on and off, choosing what range, choosing when to engage, when to turn on your speed boosters, when to turn on your tank, what range to warp in etc.

No one ship is good at everything, there is always one other ship which can counter it in a given tactical situation. Eve is a game of tactical decision making, the point and shoot aspect is true of NPC's (actually not at a higher level, but low yes) but actual PvP of any kind is not.

I honestly liked this game, but then again I spent six hours of my day working for my corp. From a normal person's perspective, it really does kind of suck though. You just sit there, hit buttons, and watch your ship do the same thing over and over again. I guess it takes a business person to enjoy it...

yourkie1921:
Any game that requires that kind of dedication to be played is automatically flawed.

Why, because *you* say so?

and probably can learn everything you need to know within 20 minutes.

No, not really.

Than you think they could make the combat better. Any game in which you control 1 character and is basically one click-combat can not be a good game. And as boring as yahtzee made the game sound, I am a boring person and would most likely have this game if it wasn't for the implied crappy one click style combat and the fact I have no money.

Your point is incredible flawed. Chess is also a type of 'one click combat' yet its probably the most popular game in history. I think its a more a case of you not being able to see the point of the game. In short, you are doing it wrong.

Guess what, Yahtzee played this game as the everyman.

No he didnt. It's blatantly obvious his EVE review is uninformed without any real substance.

Dread723:
why am i playing this it's boring. and pvp is annoying because big can't kill small well small can kill big, even thou the guns of a battleship should be able to vaporize the little ships in one hit.

You thought it was boring because you couldnt grind yourself to 'end game' and be 'uber' like in world of warcraft. EVE pvp requires intelligence, not 'lol I got uber harness from the dragon I slayed I now have my win-button'. A battleship can beat smaller ships, its called drones and smartbombs.

YOu found pvp boring because you obviously suck at it.

Please, review Too Human next.

What I find most telling is that almost all of the people supporting the review have clearly not played the game to any meaningful extent.

Furthermore, a quick glance at the comments reveals that the majority of people certainly do take Yahtzee's reviews as information about the games first and entertainment second.

How thoughtless and unprofessional of him then, to smear an independent game that is trying to do something different. Made by a company that has released in the order of 8 expansions to it's product over the years (including a complete graphics overhaul recently) - all for free. And smear it in such as way as to make it clear to anyone that HAS played the game all the "information" contained in his review is patently false. In fact, I would be surprised if he played more than 14 hours of the free trial, let alone the alleged 14 days.

And to top it all off, they advertise here and you didn't make the effort of giving them a fair hearing. Talk about shitting where you eat, you putz. In the immortal words of Homer Simpson "You've just lost yourself a customer!".

Your point is incredible flawed. Chess is also a type of 'one click combat' yet its probably the most popular game in history. I think its a more a case of you not being able to see the point of the game. In short, you are doing it wrong.

Chess is moreso an RTS than an MMO if you ask me. NO GAME WHERE YOU ONLY CONTROL ONE PERSON CAN HAVE FUN ONE-CLICK COMBAT, there now

No he didnt. It's blatantly obvious his EVE review is uninformed without any real substance.

That was the most irellevant piece of shit arguement I've ever heard.

No, not really.

is this a challenge?

Why, because *you* say so?

No, because if it takes up more than 20 full days to learn the game only people with no real lives will play it.

Nope, you will not win, and it will not be impossible to win.

Ok. That second part is all I need to know.

And to top it all off, they advertise here and you didn't make the effort of giving them a fair hearing. Talk about shitting where you eat, you putz. In the immortal words of Homer Simpson "You've just lost yourself a customer!".

Do you think he cares?

Eve is not twitch based, but it is heavily tactical. If you have your dream ship there are at least two or three other ships which are a counter to it, if they are flown correctly. That means actually maneuvering the ship and choosing when to turn your guns on and off, choosing what range, choosing when to engage, when to turn on your speed boosters, when to turn on your tank, what range to warp in etc.

Ok, enough is enough. Can you find me a youtube video of one of these fights.

Ok, enough is enough. Can you find me a youtube video of one of these fights.

Google them yourself, that is if you can free up one of your hands long enough from gripping tightly to Yahtzee's nuts.

Eh, gripping yahtzee's nuts would hurt him, it'd be a poor way to show affection

Yahtzee did what he always did. And I think it's fair enough to play a 14-day trial and try to go solo so you don't have to say to your new companions, "Sorry, I have to go and never come back because I've run out of playtime."

More to the point, did you ever really expect Yahtzee to like it? He pretty much always bitchslaps games except for a few very notable exceptions. So why not grow up and either go back to playing EVE because you like it or doing something else if you don't.

Surggical_Scar:
Hm, Yahtzee making an effort to find a new and inventive MMO? Is it raining custard? Have my legs suddenly turned into Belgian tourists?

Good God, it's for real.

Oh, wait, he's ripping the shit out of it. Thank goodness, I'll spit out those Asprin and keep typing.

Never even heard of EVE until today (no I didn't look at the ads, what do you take me for, someone with money?), and after today, well, I won't go near it without a flamethrower and a spray gun full of Holy Water. Never being much of an MMO fan myself, you pretty succinctly pointed out eveything that needed to be said:

Tries to be WoW.

Fails miserably.

Still murders your social life with a pickaxe.

Good man. Funny, angry and laced with bile. Not unlike my porn collection.

I'm sorry, but what? Tries to be WoW???? Ok, I'm lost. HAVE YOU GONE COMPLETELY MENTAL?!?!?!?!?!? Just play the trial. It's 14 days long and is completely free. You'll see that EvE doesn't try to be like WoW in any way whatsoever except for the fact that there's money in it, it's an mmorpg, and it has people that play it (and the combat kinda, but not really). If you can't wrap your head around player owned corporations with shares and shareholders and a Ceo, COO, CFO, founder, board of directors, etc..., then how do you wrap your head around actual corps? How do you wrap your head around life in general? Give EvE a try. It's for your own good.

Does anyone else get that SSBB feeling again?

Am I the only one that keep getting the %^$%-ing Warhammer Online ad over and over? It won't play!

yourkie1921:
Chess is moreso an RTS than an MMO if you ask me. NO GAME WHERE YOU ONLY CONTROL ONE PERSON CAN HAVE FUN ONE-CLICK COMBAT, there now

How apropriate. EVE *is* in most ways a RTS.

That was the most irellevant piece of shit arguement I've ever heard.

And that was the most rubbish attempt of refutal I have ever read.

is this a challenge?

Yes.

No, because if it takes up more than 20 full days to learn the game only people with no real lives will play it.

Ah crap. A person on an internet forum dedicatde to games say I dont have a life. How am I going to loose my virginity now? :(

Yeah I get a stupid advert for Warhammer, followed by... the same stupid advert for Warhammer.
Sort it out Escapist!

EDIT: Nevermind, it works all of a sudden.

EVE entertained me for about four hours before boring me to death.

Eipok Kruden:
[quote=Surggical_Scar post=6.70442.691775]Hm, Yahtzee making an effort to find a new and inventive MMO? Is it raining custard? Have my legs suddenly turned into Belgian tourists?

Good God, it's for real.

Oh, wait, he's ripping the shit out of it. Thank goodness, I'll spit out those Asprin and keep typing.

Never even heard of EVE until today (no I didn't look at the ads, what do you take me for, someone with money?), and after today, well, I won't go near it without a flamethrower and a spray gun full of Holy Water. Never being much of an MMO fan myself, you pretty succinctly pointed out eveything that needed to be said:

Tries to be WoW.

Fails miserably.

Still murders your social life with a pickaxe.

Good man. Funny, angry and laced with bile. Not unlike my porn collection.

Eve - First released in North America and Europe in May 2003

WoW - First released on November 23, 2004

So logically, even if the games were remotely similar (which they are not), then it would have to be the other way around. WoW would be trying to be eve. Fortunately, as someone else pointed out, the only thing they have in common is that they are MMOs

Eve is a fundamentally bad game and the arguements for Eve, in a way, prove that the game is bad. A game shouldn't have to be defended. "Well you need to play for a few months to have fun." or "You need to do this, or that, or join this and do that to have fun."

You know what a game should be?... A GAME. It should not require you to do something to have fun, it should treat you like its savior if you are so kind as to sink money into their pathetic company then they should GIVE YOU FUN. Fun isn't something to be earned unless you DON'T HAVE A JOB. We have a job so therefore we already earned our fun and should not have to do something so tedious and boring to get to the fun parts in a game.

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