Zero Punctuation: Eve Online

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Spot on enough review, really.

EvE online is not so much a space game as it is an economic simulation. If you get excited about the idea of Virtual Online Communities then EVE Online is made for you. Its a game where you hand-forge your own player-run civilization from nothing through the endless toil of refining space rocks into something. However, if you like to play games to have fun then EvE's novelty wears off rather quickly. The most exciting part of the game is when giant player-run corporations face off against eachother, and even then it's pretty much number crunching who's able to tank the longest.

If Yahtzee wants to play a fun MMORPG (which, I'm sure he agrees, sounds like a real oxymoron by now) then I heartily recommend he give City of Heroes a spin. It's one of the few MMORPGs that was designed with enjoyable gameplay in mind. However, I think two caveats are neccessary in this case:

1. Like any other game, City of Heroes does not remain fun forever, and then all that's left in the grind.

2. If you play it like the path to victory is kicking eachother's shins, that's exactly what you'll get. City of Heroes allows some creativity and tactics in combat, but you have to try.

KiiWii:
You know whats really interesting? The majority of EVE online players posting here are actually really articulate. Correct grammar, correct punctuation, and well spoken. Not to mention that pretty much all of them have said they completely agree with Ben (yes, i shall call him Ben). These are reasonable people, not like the fucking crazy ass console fanboys who would kill a whole generation of babies to prove a point about their console.

Hats off to you guys. seriously. =]

My experience with EVE is that this is part of what makes EVE online great. The rough game front weeds out most of the undesirables.

I only played the 14 day trial myself and found the first few days rather dull and unnerving, but it felt like the ball needed to get rolling for it to be any fun. Apparently I ran into a bug with the initial mission line that wouldn't let me have the next mission so I ended up having to earn the fancy new frigate you would normally get through mission rewards. After I did that and was able to actually get through some of the level 1 missions and the experience was pretty good until I felt the missions repeat... over and over. That is not to mention that they started sending me several gate jumps away. The thing that really bugged me was that even though I had gotten a cruiser, I was still fighting frigates. I remember someone saying that higher level missions get you larger ships, but none of the level 2 mission givers would talk to me yet. The worst part about it is that the cruiser, while being bigger, has a harder time than a smaller ship, the destroyer, at blowing up frigates due to the whole speed issue. And while you could equip it with larger weapons, the weapons also were slower tracking that made it just not worth using a cruiser in the trial(unless there is some sort of shortcut to get to the level 2 mission givers that I don't know about).

So the bigger boot thing doesn't work after a certain point in EVE. I mean you can have a bigger shield/armor to get through and that's effective at surviving, but you have to actually be able to hit the smaller "boot" to get the loot. I've found that if you have any ship set to full stop and enemy ships orbiting you, you will barely ever hit anything. That is how important speed is.

The review seems interesting, might as well try the Trail/

AdamAK:
Excellent review. Spot on!

I tried EVE online about a year ago, and while some of it was interesting, there was one thing that I absolutely hated about the game: The totally unfair skill training. Sure, you can say that casual players get a chance to compete with the hardcore players, but that's exactly what makes it so unfair. Why the hell would I want to 'play' ( - most of time you're not even playing EVE, because you can go AFK - ) EVE for several hours per day if I can achieve the same by playing it an hour a week?

Sure, the economy is 'realistic', but instead of wasting money on messing around with this 'realistic' simluation, I might aswell make some real money in real life.

The UI is horrible. The font is annoying and there are too many menu's.

The interaction with other players simply involves either clicking on 'attack' and setting an orbit distance and watch what happens, or chatting with them. I've tried the 'oh-so-awesome' PVP, and it hardly involved any skill. It's about who has the biggest guns and the most SP.

The Corporations fight for empty space with minerals. They COULD form an alliance with other corporations, but for some reason everyone wants to have his personal space where (s)he can do absolutely NOTHING.

The only thing I like about EVE is its steep learning curve. It eliminates all the people that can't handle it, leaving the commited ones behind. Kind of like "Survival of the Fittest".

Well done Yahtzee, the review was great, though lacking some information, but great nonetheless.

Wow, you didn't even scratch the surface of what Eve offers, even over that year it seems. Combat is much more involved than you give it credit, and it is not all about who has the bigger gun and most SP. Actually, the bigger guns have a drawback. If you are in a battleship with large guns, and I'm in a frigate with a high speed and small, short range weapons, then I have the upper hand, and in terms of training, I can get my equipment long before you would have the skills to use the Battleships stuff. Just about every aspect of the game is deep and has many different things to consider, similar to a tactics RPG.

As for being unfair, the hardcore players are rewarded where casuals are not in the terms of money. While most games are level based, Eve is money based. You can train for years, be able to sit in the largest, most armored ship, with the best weapons for that ship, and still be stuck in a frigate because you play casually and never will amass the billions of isk needed to afford what you trained for, while the hardcore player will have a hangar filled with different cruisers, battleships, a capital ship, and other variants, thus being prepared for any situation. All because they play a lot and can afford the nice items.

That said, Eve is definitely not a game for the masses, but when people go in expecting the usual MMO stuff, they will be caught extremely unprepared for what is presented.

deathkittin:
Yahtzee, even the game developers agree with you:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=862606

As well as nearly all the players...

Now that's sad...

CCP Greyscale:

Sylvie Giovanni:
It's hilarious that the developers of the game are endorsing the video, just wow :)

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with most of what was said - and consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun, in my experience. Doesn't stop it being funny though, which is what it's for, right?

Please read the whole topic. ;)

Eve is quite possibly the most boring game I've ever played, I tried the trial out last year and it was nothing more than a colossal waste of my time. Yuck.

PxDn Ninja:

Wow, you didn't even scratch the surface of what Eve offers, even over that year it seems. Combat is much more involved than you give it credit, and it is not all about who has the bigger gun and most SP. Actually, the bigger guns have a drawback. If you are in a battleship with large guns, and I'm in a frigate with a high speed and small, short range weapons, then I have the upper hand, and in terms of training, I can get my equipment long before you would have the skills to use the Battleships stuff. Just about every aspect of the game is deep and has many different things to consider, similar to a tactics RPG.

As for being unfair, the hardcore players are rewarded where casuals are not in the terms of money. While most games are level based, Eve is money based. You can train for years, be able to sit in the largest, most armored ship, with the best weapons for that ship, and still be stuck in a frigate because you play casually and never will amass the billions of isk needed to afford what you trained for, while the hardcore player will have a hangar filled with different cruisers, battleships, a capital ship, and other variants, thus being prepared for any situation. All because they play a lot and can afford the nice items.

That said, Eve is definitely not a game for the masses, but when people go in expecting the usual MMO stuff, they will be caught extremely unprepared for what is presented.

But the fun is just gone when you have a smaller weapon but more agile.
I remember in Mechwarrior: mercenaries 4, i got the Cougar light mech, Put on Machine gun racks ONLY. Imagine the terror when i saw an ATLAS (reallyfockingbing) mech coming down.
I knew that i had to use skill to beat him, and i knew that i could. But in EVE i simply knew that fatass ship with a huge penis is going down simply because i'm more agile, the stress of knowing that you're completely outnumbered, so you can just go out blazing is gone, making it a passive experience for me. Although i have to admit, when i tried EVE, i traveled. A. LOT.

Couldn't agree more with the sentiment. WoW is enough of a second job, tyvfm.

Still clever and spot-on but not QUITE as clever and spot-on as last week. But that's my opinion.

.. remember Steve!! remember Steve!!!

I've played EVE for over 5 years now. I feel your review was really uneducated. EVE is a pure PVP game plane and simple. There is a thin veil of PVE just to get you started while you learn the game mechanics, which I will agree with you can be a doozy to learn to the uninitiated. However, that is where the game ends for people looking for a MMO clone. The only thing PVP oriented if you choose to never leave secured space is the market. And that is about as fun as reading the walstreet journal.

If you fail to join a player corporation that engages in player combat. That is where the fun begins and in my opinion where the true game lives. There are a massive amounts of killboards all over the internet to look at. Nearly every nation with internet has a player population represented which bring their own gaming culture to the EVE community.

Furthermore, loss is real in EVE. When you die, you loose your ship and your modules. While there are insurances you can purchase the standard battleship for < 50 man gangs will still set you back around 85 million isk ( EVE credits ) which is no laughing matter to most people.

If you played EVE for 3 months in a complete PVP corp and you were exposed to the PVP culture you're review would have been completely different. Most MMO's fall into the wow category but EVE has about 2 weeks worth of content for that type of player and then its just crap. But there are YEARS worth of content if you like the ultraviolence pew pew action of fighting other players around the world.

Wewt:

PxDn Ninja:

Wow, you didn't even scratch the surface of what Eve offers, even over that year it seems. Combat is much more involved than you give it credit, and it is not all about who has the bigger gun and most SP. Actually, the bigger guns have a drawback. If you are in a battleship with large guns, and I'm in a frigate with a high speed and small, short range weapons, then I have the upper hand, and in terms of training, I can get my equipment long before you would have the skills to use the Battleships stuff. Just about every aspect of the game is deep and has many different things to consider, similar to a tactics RPG.

As for being unfair, the hardcore players are rewarded where casuals are not in the terms of money. While most games are level based, Eve is money based. You can train for years, be able to sit in the largest, most armored ship, with the best weapons for that ship, and still be stuck in a frigate because you play casually and never will amass the billions of isk needed to afford what you trained for, while the hardcore player will have a hangar filled with different cruisers, battleships, a capital ship, and other variants, thus being prepared for any situation. All because they play a lot and can afford the nice items.

That said, Eve is definitely not a game for the masses, but when people go in expecting the usual MMO stuff, they will be caught extremely unprepared for what is presented.

But the fun is just gone when you have a smaller weapon but more agile.
I remember in Mechwarrior: mercenaries 4, i got the Cougar light mech, Put on Machine gun racks ONLY. Imagine the terror when i saw an ATLAS (reallyfockingbing) mech coming down.
I knew that i had to use skill to beat him, and i knew that i could. But in EVE i simply knew that fatass ship with a huge penis is going down simply because i'm more agile, the stress of knowing that you're completely outnumbered, so you can just go out blazing is gone, making it a passive experience for me. Although i have to admit, when i tried EVE, i traveled. A. LOT.

Fair, but even that feeling is handled by the use of modules in Eve. So your the small ship with the advantage, until that battleship either A: Kicks on a webber and causes your ship to slow to well within it's targeting speeds, B: Deploys drones for close range defense that can easily keep up with you, or C: Calls in allies who can hit you. Of course even these can be countered on your end. Kinda like and expensive game of chess.

But I agree it is a passive experience at other times. My main character was a miner starting out and that was a very passive experience, but good money.

Another club to the lurching MMORPG head, well done Yahtzee! =D

Very funny, as always. I have to agree that every mmo tries to be Wow and they suck. Apparently, its impossible to create a mmo that isn't turn based combat or incredibly unintuitive and confusing. I would love to see some put some decent effort into a mmo that's based on skill rather then lvls and isn't turn based combat, one where you actually do something in combat.

On a side note, I hope to god he reviews Spore next week, its out in Australia already and will be out in the states by then.

PxDn Ninja:

Fair, but even that feeling is handled by the use of modules in Eve. So your the small ship with the advantage, until that battleship either A: Kicks on a webber and causes your ship to slow to well within it's targeting speeds, B: Deploys drones for close range defense that can easily keep up with you, or C: Calls in allies who can hit you. Of course even these can be countered on your end. Kinda like and expensive game of chess.

But I agree it is a passive experience at other times. My main character was a miner starting out and that was a very passive experience, but good money.

Actually the perfect analogy of EVE would comparing it to chess, it's not as exciting as paintball, but it is exciting in it's own way. Personally i like fast paced games more.

I used to be a fleet commander til one day when i was giving fleet instructions with strong voice my wife came out of nowhere screaming at me "quit that stupid space game and come help me clean the mess you made on the kitchen.."

End of fleet commander career.

I'm a little suprised that no-one has mentioned the whole racial Militia thing that got added recently.

If you want to get into PvP, but not the whole ubernerd politics, then I say go for the militias. You will always have targets to shoot at least.

I've played EVE nearly since Beta (I lose ubernerd points for not having been in the beta) and my main character is still in the NPC starter corporation. I'm one of those sad people who don't mind grinding away on the PvE.

That said, I did want to try PvP, just not get entangled too much in the Corps. Previously I made a second account to do so, and it was kinda fun until the small corp I joined entered into an alliance, and then the politics bogged everything down.

So now, I'm back to one account. My main to grind the PvE and pursue my dreams of owning rediculous ships from my own work, and an almost unskilled meatshield secondary character on the same account to go fly in the Militias. He's almost totally ineffectual, but he's certainly a useful tool to help me learn more about the PvP. Dying is no issue and flying in militia fleets still gives a sense of satisfaction when you win a battle, even if the most I contribute is the occasional warp scramble.

So to sum up, I can't disagree with Yahtzees review... I've spent a whole lot of time doing that boring PvE and avoiding the Corps. I still enjoyed it, but I'm pretty sure thats just me being wierd. My sugestion for everyone else who wants to try PvP without (many) strings attached is get in the Militias.

I loved this review! I have been a massive fan and player of EVE for about 2 years now, and the worst thing is - Yartzee you are totally right.
Not that that is going to stop me playing the game though!
OK, now of for a spot of Bioshock :D

Haha this one actually made me laugh unlike the last few, you were on the ball with this one. I wasn't really expecting Eve Online to be reviewed this week...or ever, but still it was more then made up for in the jokes along the way.

PxDn Ninja:

and in terms of training, I can get my equipment long before you would have the skills to use the Battleships stuff. Just about every aspect of the game is deep and has many different things to consider, similar to a tactics RPG.

As for being unfair, the hardcore players are rewarded where casuals are not in the terms of money. While most games are level based, Eve is money based. You can train for years, be able to sit in the largest, most armored ship, with the best weapons for that ship, and still be stuck in a frigate because you play casually and never will amass the billions of isk needed to afford what you trained for, while the hardcore player will have a hangar filled with different cruisers, battleships, a capital ship, and other variants, thus being prepared for any situation. All because they play a lot and can afford the nice items.

How exactly would you get your equipment ready before I'd have my battleship stuff? Unless you are somehow able to defy time itself. Oh, and money isn't really an issue if you're in one of those fancy corporations or if you have a friend who's willing to donate some money.

So your the small ship with the advantage, until that battleship either A: Kicks on a webber and causes your ship to slow to well within it's targeting speeds, B: Deploys drones for close range defense that can easily keep up with you,

Nice one. You just said that the bigger guns don't always win, and now you say that they pretty much do.

Huzzah, I can be a lazy bum and still achieve the same as others. It's fairness all over the place!

He should have said "inverse proportion", not "indirect proportion". I've always liked that someone with such an "I don't give a fuck" attitude is usually so eloquent, so this was a bigger deal to me than I know it should be.

This video was pretty good, but somehow just didn't do it for me. I could blame this on Yahtzee losing his edge, but it's far more likely that it's due to me being a little ill and brain-fuzzed right now.

Those who know me know I'm pretty much the resident EVE nerd he speaks about.

And I agree with everything he said.

The things that keep me going in EVE are the people I know and the reward I get from playing. I don't find it fun as such, just highly rewarding. Alot of EVE players would most likely agree with me there.

I think a lot of people defending Eve saying Yahtzee missed the good parts of the game by not joining a corporation are missing the over riding theme of his review. Eve isn't a game, much more it fills the 2nd job angle better (and more satisfyingly) then most MMORPGs out there. For the people who are looking for that sort of depth it offers a lot but for people expecting an ordinary game Eve will seem like and is little more then WOW in space.

Also a minor nitpick, Eve doesn't have a steep learning curve, that would imply it the player knowledge rises rapidly compared to time, if it takes a long time to learn saying it has a long or shallow learning curve would be more accurate.

hooflung64:
I've played EVE for over 5 years now. I feel your review was really uneducated. EVE is a pure PVP game plane and simple. [...] The only thing PVP oriented if you choose to never leave secured space is the market. And that is about as fun as reading the walstreet journal.

It seems to me like you and Yahtzee are in agreement, then.

I gave EvE Online a spin awhile back, and for awhile I really did enjoy grinding those space rocks and watching that delicious ISK pile up. However, I didn't have the necessary time or inclination involved in joining some cult of strangers and having my precious ISK blasted out from under me as I get into the inevitable battle with people (like yourself) who had been around for years and have so many skill points that there's really no point in even tangling with you.

I'll never catch up in terms of skill points no matter how long I stay subscribed, and where you have a neigh endless series of disposable play ships, that ship of mine you just popped effortlessly was my only one. So it is that I stay securely in safe space because you and your friends are probably camping the gate leading to where the "fun" supposedly is. Here, at least, there are no dragons.

So it is that, from the perspective of the outsider in the bush - those non-corp people you like to kill just to teach them a lesson about joining corps - EVE Online really is an inaccessible pile of non-fun. It's a real problem and you should acknowledge it if you want EVE Online to be conductive to new blood. Put another way, the PvE game should be fun too.

yeowtch, I was ever contemplating getting EVE till I remembered it costs money and decided to wait no that.

Oh wow. There are a ton of uneducated people in this thread. First of all let me make this clear to all of you who believe that this is somehow a WOW clone or attempting to be WOW: you are so completely wrong it is incredible.

I've been playing Eve for a little under a year now and it has got to be one of the greatest gaming experiences of my life. There is no other MMO on the market that leaves you with the feeling of actually accomplishing something. That you actually have an affect on the game just by your own actions. Alliance politics, territory acquisition and loss, real pirating (ransoms as well), ships that if sold in the real world would cost as much as a low end car and the amount of flexibility you have when playing the game. There is no real wrong way to play the game, although a lot will say the PvE is terrible (it is) or something along those lines. But everyone is free to do what they please.

As for Yahtzee's review. It was pretty much true. I tell all my friends that the game is going to suck for at least a month. For a lot of people that's too long because let's face it it takes less than that to get to 70 now. The game is not for everyone, I'll give you that, but most of what Yahtzee brought up is because he only played a 14 day free trial. A lot will have similar complaints, and like I said, I completely agree, but you can't bash an entire game based on that. I never had a problem with Yahtzee's reviews before because most of the games he bashed usually deserved it. But for Eve is a whole different genre, I'd go as far to say that it's not even a game. More like a social simulator (spying, stealing, scamming, pirating and alliance backstabbing are all legal within the game).

The largest online battle ever took place in Eve, with over 20 thousand players from all across the globe to remove one alliance (Band of Brothers). In the end they failed and now we are seeing a power shift within the game (the Russians are quite powerful) as alliances are now falling apart (A map of player controlled territory: http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png ).

And let's face it only in Eve does someone get interviewed by the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/arts/television/28beve.html

As a guy who plays World of Warcraft, I think I can safely say that I know boring when I see it, and DEAR SWEET CHRIST does that game sound boring.

I liked the game, but because it was an online game that isn't worth much. It means I thought the trial displayed cool ideas and a nice overall tone, but I will never play it beyond that because I'd rather spend my time with numerous short but enlightening stories than one long one pumped with filler at every month long interval between an illusion of progress.

Jerakal:
As a guy who plays World of Warcraft, I think I can safely say that I know boring when I see it how to pander to the status quo, but little else.

Fixed that for you. I do this not be insulting, I'm trying to make a point:

Contrary to popular belief, World of Warcraft is not the best game in existence, just a really popular one. They're not the same thing for the same reason that McDonald's Big Macs are not five-star dining. Being a player of a popular game does not mean you know what is and isn't boring, and that's why I felt inclined to correct you.

But you're coincidentally right that EVE is boring. ;)

[Edit: I'm interpreting your message to say, "I play WoW and so I know what a good game is." Maybe what you actually meant is, "I play World of Warcraft and it's boring so I know boring" but you can see where there's room for misinterpretation there - if WoW's boring, why would you play it?]

Ok, i hate straying into the "what if" because i know once you say one what if, you can pretty much say anything in any context and justify it, but here i go anyway.
What if the people who run this game, stopped. And the game went down, and never worked again. I always wonder this, well, with any MMO really. I mean, you say its accomplishment, but is it really accomplishment if none of it matters in the big time anyway.

Yeah i know, you're come back will be something like: "everyone dies so what accomplishment is that" or whatever, but lets be reasonable here. I'd like some people to argue over this now so i can watch and laugh =]

(remember - i play WoW) ;)

OH YEAH. And if you guys, and i know you're smart, your fucking brilliant, if you could put your talents to use and expand them realistically, maybe we can explore real space?

lol all my friend does on the game is logs in to train a skill and then logs out again and has done this for years.........

That said I reward EVE for doing something different because I'm sick of WOW and I love the in depth Market and how the game doesn't have character classes or levels which ruin mmorpgs and make them too linear then makes all the content previous to your level useless and makes it so you ahve to grind to end level to be able to play with your friends.

What puts me off EVE is the timed training because I want to progress at my own pace and the fact that you will never catch up veterans of the game because of the timed trianing and how PVP is all about group combat and I myself prefer 1 v 1 to show off my leet skills.

EVE is not a bad mmorpg but a niche one that doesn't appeal to most people but you can't knock something because it doesn't appeal to everyone.

Yeah i played the 14 day trial, my friend thought it was the shiz i just warped around a bit, got lost then closed the window. Bloody hell it was confuzzling

KiiWii:
Ok, i hate straying into the "what if" because i know once you say one what if, you can pretty much say anything in any context and justify it, but here i go anyway.
What if the people who run this game, stopped. And the game went down, and never worked again. I always wonder this, well, with any MMO really. I mean, you say its accomplishment, but is it really accomplishment if none of it matters in the big time anyway.

Yeah i know, you're come back will be something like: "everyone dies so what accomplishment is that" or whatever, but lets be reasonable here. I'd like some people to argue over this now so i can watch and laugh =]

(remember - i play WoW) ;)

What if your memory card got fried just before you completed GTA:SA?

An accomplishment is an accomplishment. The fact that the servers got turned off doesn't change your memories or what you've done. You still accomplished things and had an awesome time.

lord667:

KiiWii:
Ok, i hate straying into the "what if" because i know once you say one what if, you can pretty much say anything in any context and justify it, but here i go anyway.
What if the people who run this game, stopped. And the game went down, and never worked again. I always wonder this, well, with any MMO really. I mean, you say its accomplishment, but is it really accomplishment if none of it matters in the big time anyway.

Yeah i know, you're come back will be something like: "everyone dies so what accomplishment is that" or whatever, but lets be reasonable here. I'd like some people to argue over this now so i can watch and laugh =]

(remember - i play WoW) ;)

What if your memory card got fried just before you completed GTA:SA?

An accomplishment is an accomplishment. The fact that the servers got turned off doesn't change your memories or what you've done. You still accomplished things and had an awesome time.

what if your eyes boiled out of your head right now?
Told you it could get ridiculous ;)

I finally got around to watching the video (no surprise there was already 200 posts), I'd just like to say that Yahtzee has hit the nail on the head perfectly once again.

KiiWii:

what if your eyes boiled out of your head right now?
Told you it could get ridiculous ;)

Well, I can't imagine playing MMO's in Braille so it could do wonders for my social life.

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