Zero Punctuation: XBLA Double Bill

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Why I essentially disagree with Yahtzee's blanket statement that retro games are bad: There are several games from the past which have never been done better since. The FPS/RTS gameplay of Battlezone, the all-encompassing space adventures of Frontier: Elite II, and my personal favourite example, the perfectly balanced, ostensibly simple but secretly strategic Spacewar!, where they managed to make a better multiplayer experience with a computer the power of which we could find in our modern digital watches than many games do today.

Slycne:
You are missing his point. He is trying to point out that we hold classic games up on a pedestal simply because they were something we played in the past. Rather then really taking an objective approach to them. Not all classic games are bad, just like how not all new games are good. A poor design choice shouldn't be overlooked just because the game happens to be "classic". It's also perfectly fine to enjoy a game regardless.

Why I agree with Yahtzee's statement: Yes, it is an incorrect attitude to hold classic games up on a pedestal. That's precisely why I analyse and review old games, and I even went as far as to dig up a forty-seven year old game in order to give it a proper review (originally intended as a review that people couldn't ignore due to the audacity of the idea).

But I wasn't reviewing that game from the standpoint of nostalgia. I'm nineteen years old. Spacewar! was made almost thirty years before I was born. What nostalgia could exist there?

Rockdrake:

Indigo_Dingo:
I would have thought he'd have taken this opportunity to bitchslap Lucasarts back to the stone age with The Force unleashed.

He has next week to do that...

And seriously, it takes no effort to do that.

144:

ZerodMikestar:
wow no, maybe I'll give you Sunshine over Mario 64 (and definitely galaxy over it)

but Twilight Princess over Ocarina of Time?...that's just ever so slightly categorically incorrect. there's an equation that proves it and everything

it goes along the lines of:

Ocarina = better than Twilight Princess. Simple. It had you as a bloody wolf for half the game and borrowed pretty much everything from Ocarina of time. eegads

rant over

funny chat today yahtzee, always hilarious calling children c*nts because they ARE

And if I bothered to, every single quote like this as well, so nothing personal, quoted guy:

I am prone to replay 1-player games. Take, for instance, Civilization, or Pokemon, or final fantasy n<14. If I felt like replaying any given Zelda game, they would be, in this order, TP, WW, OoT, LttP, PH (I haven't played/don't care about the others). Similarly, for Mario, they would be Galaxy, then Sunshine, then 64.
Why?
Good question. The answer lies in the point Yahtzee made and everyone who then whined about it missed: part of what made those games great was that they were the first to do what was in the later games. That's how time works. But if I wanted the Ocarina of Time experience, I'd play Twilight Princess, which does everything Oot does with better graphics and controls, more freedom and combat, and has the added wolf sections which, if I don't like them, do not actually take a long time. You HAD to be a wolf for about...5 extended periods of time or so. And all you had to do was collect little bugs, which I thought was fun, but for those who didn't, it shouldn't matter, because every single temple was still done in human form.
Similarly with Sunshine - the gameplay was cleaner than it was in 64, and all they did was tack on the water pistol, which, if you didn't like it, was often entirely unnecessary for more than half of the game. If that sounds familiar, you may have read the previous paragraph.
What I'm saying is that most games with sequels do not take anything out of the old game, but rather, just add more in. The experience is there, but so are some others being tried out to see how people like it.

In the case of sonic going 3d, it's understandable that people don't like the sequels because the actual intended gameplay is substantially different, not just the old stuff with better graphics and some new elements installed (which is what I hope Sonic Unleashed will be, though it may suck regardless).

So feel free to tell me why I'm wrong, but I probably won't care, because I do understand the hypnotic power Pokemon red and Mario 64 have over me, in that I think they're more amazing than I should think by today's standards.

I peronally found Twilight Princess to be more linear and repetive compared to Ocarina of Time's varied and non linear gameplaye. Same thing with Super Mario 64 with Sunshine except Sunshine seemed very unpolished. I don't think a game establishing what was new back then has nothing to do what someone likes more.

Like you said, ZP jumped the shark with the new intro sequence. I'm really sorry, but it did.
The only thing I laughed at was the imp dressed in the mother's clothes, only because I remember the first appearance of the imp in The Darkness Demo review waaaay back on YouTube.

somerandomguy:

skoomaeater:

Playbahnosh:
Meh. Yahtzee, you seriously need a vacation, man. I hate to say it, but ZP is going downhill for the last few episodes. I didn't even smile at this one.

It's not about quoting Yahtzee to death, or getting used to his jokes. Hell, I was watching the series from the very first episodes, and it was awesome until a few weeks earlier. ZP had it's ups and downs, but this one is different. It's getting shallow and repetitive, with Yahtzee doing nothing but playing Captain Obvious and hating at the wrong direction. That Hitler "joke" wasn't funny at all, for example. Forced, bumpy and semi-boring, ZP is running out of juice fast.

You need a refill, Yahtzee, go have a brake for a few weeks, seriously. Yeah, we will miss the show for the time being, but it will be all for the better, and we'll get some good 'ol ZP power when you get back.

I think you are perhaps missing the point. Yahtzee is reviewing games - not producing a comedy series. While his general rantings are amusing he is first and foremost reviewing the game. I personally like to watch ZP to pick up on the stuff that IGN and the like miss out in their rantings about normal mapping, polygons and vertexes.

Yahtzee doesn't "review" games he just rants about them to score cheap laughs and to recieve his paycheck. If he's intentionally tyring to creat drama with his reviews for "lulz" {I hate that "word"} than the man has stoop to a new low to becoming a troll and I never thought I would've say that considering how much of a fan I was for Yahtzee.

@somerandomguy
No. Yahtzee is not a generic sell-out comedian. He used to be really original, amusing and funny. Just go watch his earlier reviews, like Resident Evil 4, Bioshock, or Witcher. It's solid gold! Also...

@skoomaeater
Again, no. Yahtzee is not reviewing games as "objectively showcasing a game to the audience", he is hating on them in a humorous way, and as such, he is creating comedy. Yahtzee is first and foremost and entertainer, not a hard-hat journalist. Go read some PC Word or Chip Magazine, that is reviewing and journalism. ZP? ZP is the awesome....or it used to be anyway. :/

Looks like it's Yahtzee himself who started missing the point...

Playbahnosh:

somerandomguy:

skoomaeater:

Playbahnosh:
Meh. Yahtzee, you seriously need a vacation, man. I hate to say it, but ZP is going downhill for the last few episodes. I didn't even smile at this one.

It's not about quoting Yahtzee to death, or getting used to his jokes. Hell, I was watching the series from the very first episodes, and it was awesome until a few weeks earlier. ZP had it's ups and downs, but this one is different. It's getting shallow and repetitive, with Yahtzee doing nothing but playing Captain Obvious and hating at the wrong direction. That Hitler "joke" wasn't funny at all, for example. Forced, bumpy and semi-boring, ZP is running out of juice fast.

You need a refill, Yahtzee, go have a brake for a few weeks, seriously. Yeah, we will miss the show for the time being, but it will be all for the better, and we'll get some good 'ol ZP power when you get back.

I think you are perhaps missing the point. Yahtzee is reviewing games - not producing a comedy series. While his general rantings are amusing he is first and foremost reviewing the game. I personally like to watch ZP to pick up on the stuff that IGN and the like miss out in their rantings about normal mapping, polygons and vertexes.

Yahtzee doesn't "review" games he just rants about them to score cheap laughs and to recieve his paycheck. If he's intentionally tyring to creat drama with his reviews for "lulz" {I hate that "word"} than the man has stoop to a new low to becoming a troll and I never thought I would've say that considering how much of a fan I was for Yahtzee.

@somerandomguy
No. Yahtzee is not a generic sell-out comedian. He used to be really original, amusing and funny. Just go watch his earlier reviews, like Resident Evil 4, Bioshock, or Witcher. It's solid gold! Also...

@skoomaeater
Again, no. Yahtzee is not reviewing games as "objectively showcasing a game to the audience", he is hating on them in a humorous way, and as such, he is creating comedy. Yahtzee is first and foremost and entertainer, not a hard-hat journalist. Go read some PC Word or Chip Magazine, that is reviewing and journalism. ZP? ZP is the awesome....or it used to be :/

I know his old videos were hilarious and he made valid points in those, but he did sell out bnow when he became more famous. He doesn't create any valid criticism anymore.

RAKtheUndead:
Why I essentially disagree with Yahtzee's blanket statement that retro games are bad: There are several games from the past which have never been done better since. The FPS/RTS gameplay of Battlezone, the all-encompassing space adventures of Frontier: Elite II, and my personal favourite example, the perfectly balanced, ostensibly simple but secretly strategic Spacewar!, where they managed to make a better multiplayer experience with a computer the power of which we could find in our modern digital watches than many games do today.

Slycne:
You are missing his point. He is trying to point out that we hold classic games up on a pedestal simply because they were something we played in the past. Rather then really taking an objective approach to them. Not all classic games are bad, just like how not all new games are good. A poor design choice shouldn't be overlooked just because the game happens to be "classic". It's also perfectly fine to enjoy a game regardless.

Why I agree with Yahtzee's statement: Yes, it is an incorrect attitude to hold classic games up on a pedestal. That's precisely why I analyse and review old games, and I even went as far as to dig up a forty-seven year old game in order to give it a proper review (originally intended as a review that people couldn't ignore due to the audacity of the idea).

But I wasn't reviewing that game from the standpoint of nostalgia. I'm nineteen years old. Spacewar! was made almost thirty years before I was born. What nostalgia could exist there?

Exactly! Exactly! Gaming is gaming no matter when a particular title was released. Having better graphics doesn't make a game automatically good and having poor graphics doesn't automatically make the game obsolete. To get Socratic here, all games are shadows of that elusive form of gameplay. Some are better at it than others... but age does not matter one whit. This is the reason people play classic games: the gameplay is solid and stands the test of time. Ever wonder why there's no State of Emergency (PS2) subculture out there? The game blew and will be forgotten, except as an exceptionally horrible game like ET.

Personally, I never owned the original Bionic Commando and I never finished it until I started playing Rearmed. I gotta say... good gameplay is good gameplay no matter what it looks like. Both games are awesome... and that's not nostalgia speaking.

somerandomguy:

I peronally found Twilight Princess to be more linear and repetive compared to Ocarina of Time's varied and non linear gameplaye. Same thing with Super Mario 64 with Sunshine except Sunshine seemed very unpolished. I don't think a game establishing what was new back then has nothing to do what someone likes more.

In what way was OoT not linear? First was the tree temple, then you went to the castle, then you went to the next temple, got the next stone thingy, went to the next temple, and so on.

And as unpolished as you may think sunshine was (whatever you mean by unpolished), there were plenty of ways in which 64 would seem even less polished, possibly owing to that "64" part.

Tattaglia:
Like you said, ZP jumped the shark with the new intro sequence. I'm really sorry, but it did.
The only thing I laughed at was the imp dressed in the mother's clothes, only because I remember the first appearance of the imp in The Darkness Demo review waaaay back on YouTube.

Glad I'm not the only one who hates the intro/outro sequences. I always mute 'em. That generic rock crap is irritating as hell. I miss the music clips that were, in and of themselves, comments on the games.

144:

In what way was OoT not linear? First was the tree temple, then you went to the castle, then you went to the next temple, got the next stone thingy, went to the next temple, and so on.

You COULD take the temples out of order... get certain items earlier than you were supposed to... etc. etc.

In Twilight Princess, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you can't even visit places out of order... there are barriers in place to prevent you from doing so...

OuroborosChoked:

144:

In what way was OoT not linear? First was the tree temple, then you went to the castle, then you went to the next temple, got the next stone thingy, went to the next temple, and so on.

You COULD take the temples out of order... get certain items earlier than you were supposed to... etc. etc.

In Twilight Princess, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you can't even visit places out of order... there are barriers in place to prevent you from doing so...

Sure, sure. But of course, unless they read something saying they could do otherwise, I imagine the vast, vast, vast majority went in the order intended. I mean, I could theoretically make the same case for Sunshine, saying that it was possible to get into one of the later levels before even clearing out the goop in the middle of the plaza at the start of the game that leads to the first level, thus clearing the way for other levels and ultimately allowing one to do the 1st level way, way later.
But I won't argue that that adds to non linearity (it was already somewhat nonlinear anyway), because that was (a) not something any one did on their first (and usually only) playthrough, and it was (b) not something the developers intended. I assume.

You even say yourself "earlier than you were SUPPOSED TO," implying that you already realized the developers didn't plan for people to go out of order when you did it yourself.

somerandomguy:
I know his old videos were hilarious and he made valid points in those, but he did sell out bnow when he became more famous. He doesn't create any valid criticism anymore.

No, I really don't think you are on the right track here. Yahtzee "sold out" at the time he joined the crew of the Escapist, from then on the magazine pays for his games and gives him his paycheck. That was even before the episodes you mentioned you actually like.

I think Yahtzee is simply suffering from the comedian type of Writer's Block. He is out of fuel and ZP is running on fumes only for the last few eps. I see he is desperatly trying to come up with new stuff, but he somehow misses the funny. The treatment for this is a long vacation, to get away from ZP for a while. Just look a while back, when he went to the Valve HQ, after he got back ZP reignited with a huge amount of funny. I think this would be the right thing to do now.

@OuroborosChoked
Exactly my thoughts. Graphics are no way to measure a game. Overlord was awesome with it's mediocre but cheesy graphics, and Far Cry (and it's kind) had awesome looks but sucked in every other way imaginable. That goes for older games too, even abandonware and old-console games.

If you have fun playing a game, that's all that counts. Methinks.

Aren't the ridiculously long arguments every Zero Punctuation Episode inspires getting a little boring by now?

So Yahtzee's main complaints about Bionic Commando: Rearmed are:
1. It's too hard.
2. The gameplay mechanics are too difficult to get used to.

1: Not really
2: That's normally a valid complaint but sometimes it isn't and if I don't explain everyone's going to flock to one or two examples where it isn't. If learning the mechanics of the game is not supposed to be part of the challenge that is a valid complaint. And he's complaining about unecisary complications that do nothing but make you pissed. Unless you consider remembering to press A again to let go is a decent challenge once you're used it in which case I must play you at a game that's out of your element so I can inflate my own ego.

Wow. AND he's never played the original... which was even more difficult than Rearmed by leagues. Also, I get the feeling that he never finished the game. I'm assuming this from the quote, "Strangely for a 2D platformer, you can't jump (at least from the start)." To me, that does not say, "I finished the game". That says, "I didn't even try".

I wouldn't play through more than the start of a fighting game where the mechanic for throwing a hit (any hit, and yes I mean the basic ones. and I mean the hitting itself, not the mechanics surrounding it) takes getting used to and until then makes you die every 10 seconds and then turns into a minor annoyance.

Also, to all of those pissed at him saying Hitler was right, in my opinion when you're kidding there is no line that can't be crossed.

Playbahnosh:

@OuroborosChoked
Exactly my thoughts. Graphics are no way to measure a game. Overlord was awesome with it's mediocre but cheesy graphics, and Far Cry (and it's kind) had awesome looks but sucked in every other way imaginable. That goes for older games too, even abandonware and old-console games.

If you have fun playing a game, that's all that counts. Methinks.

Yeah, well, while you can't actually measure a game by its graphics, they definitely help sway your opinion. I mean, if galaxy had sub-par graphics, I'd have had a worse experience playing it, however slight. And there are definitely games which I feel like I might have enjoyed substantially more if only the graphics weren't so goddamn blocky.

hitler was right, smoking sucks! and he would agree that retro gaming sucks too

yourkie1921:

Also, to all of those pissed at him saying Hitler was right, in my opinion when you're kidding there is no line that can't be crossed.

Unless you're talking to a fat girl, or a girl on her...nevermind.

An amusing video, nostalgia is a funny thing. Best not to look into the past or you realise how crappy it was!!

Oh, and on the current conversation that seems to have popped up. I wouldn't say yatzee has sold out so much as he simply has a job... as far as I know, all the videos hosted on this site have been paid for by The Escapist, as Playbshnosh says.

Also, the rest of the good games are waiting for the holidays. I imagine Yahtzee's gaming options are even worse because of the whole Australia problem as well.

lol that was funny

Playbahnosh:

somerandomguy:
I know his old videos were hilarious and he made valid points in those, but he did sell out bnow when he became more famous. He doesn't create any valid criticism anymore.

No, I really don't think you are on the right track here. Yahtzee "sold out" at the time he joined the crew of the Escapist, from then on the magazine pays for his games and gives him his paycheck. That was even before the episodes you mentioned you actually like.

I think Yahtzee is simply suffering from the comedian type of Writer's Block. He is out of fuel and ZP is running on fumes only for the last few eps. I see he is desperatly trying to come up with new stuff, but he somehow misses the funny. The treatment for this is a long vacation, to get away from ZP for a while. Just look a while back, when he went to the Valve HQ, after he got back ZP reignited with a huge amount of funny. I think this would be the right thing to do now.

@OuroborosChoked
Exactly my thoughts. Graphics are no way to measure a game. Overlord was awesome with it's mediocre but cheesy graphics, and Far Cry (and it's kind) had awesome looks but sucked in every other way imaginable. That goes for older games too, even abandonware and old-console games.

If you have fun playing a game, that's all that counts. Methinks.

Far Cry was an excellent game along with Crytek's other game Crysis, Doom 3 sucked balls.

yourkie1921:

So Yahtzee's main complaints about Bionic Commando: Rearmed are:
1. It's too hard.
2. The gameplay mechanics are too difficult to get used to.

1: Not really
2: That's normally a valid complaint but sometimes it isn't and if I don't explain everyone's going to flock to one or two examples where it isn't. If learning the mechanics of the game is not supposed to be part of the challenge that is a valid complaint. And he's complaining about unecisary complications that do nothing but make you pissed. Unless you consider remembering to press A again to let go is a decent challenge once you're used it in which case I must play you at a game that's out of your element so I can inflate my own ego.

Wow. AND he's never played the original... which was even more difficult than Rearmed by leagues. Also, I get the feeling that he never finished the game. I'm assuming this from the quote, "Strangely for a 2D platformer, you can't jump (at least from the start)." To me, that does not say, "I finished the game". That says, "I didn't even try".

I wouldn't play through more than the start of a fighting game where the mechanic for throwing a hit (any hit, and yes I mean the basic ones. and I mean the hitting itself, not the mechanics surrounding it) takes getting used to and until then makes you die every 10 seconds and then turns into a minor annoyance.

Also, to all of those pissed at him saying Hitler was right, in my opinion when you're kidding there is no line that can't be crossed.

The Yahtzee fanboys with the Zero Punctuation and Yahtzee avatars are easily the best yahtzee fanboys.

Edit: I'm so sorry I called you and stereo typed as a fanboy, I'm really becoming overly frustrated over yahtzee.

144:
Also, the rest of the good games are waiting for the holidays. I imagine Yahtzee's gaming options are even worse because of the whole Australia problem as well.

That's why I suggested that vacation thing. No better time than the pre-holiday season, when nothing noteworthy (or hateworthy for that matter) comes out. It will do good, I'm sure.

144:
Yeah, well, while you can't actually measure a game by its graphics, they definitely help sway your opinion. I mean, if galaxy had sub-par graphics, I'd have had a worse experience playing it, however slight. And there are definitely games which I feel like I might have enjoyed substantially more if only the graphics weren't so goddamn blocky.

Right, but what I meant was, you can't jugde a game by it's grapics only. Maybe I have problems dealing with change, getting old and stuff, but I'm not willing to accept the the current trend of "if it looks awesome, it's Da Game". I grew up on NES and Commodore games, and graphics didn't really matter then, you just had to fill in the blanks with your imagination, and I still have that skill. Sadly, kids nowdays don't. They require the whole game experience presented to them on a silver platter, they don't want to use their imaginations anymore, and that's sad.

Hell, I still play obscure games like Giants: Citizen Kabuto, just to giggle at the wisecracking mercs and stomp stuff with a seven story high monster, graphics be damned.

somerandomguy:
Far Cry was an excellent game along with Crytek's other game Crysis, Doom 3 sucked balls.

Yeah, that too.

How about you review something new and unique, like The Last Guy?

144:
Also, the rest of the good games are waiting for the holidays. I imagine Yahtzee's gaming options are even worse because of the whole Australia problem as well.

Not bloody likely. Both Microsoft and Sony know they need to net the world on this one. 3 major universal releases each.

At least I hope so. JB Hi-Fi has been showing off Resistance 2 since before the box art was even decided on, so I hope they've got a release date.

This is the best review ever simply for the "Hitler was right" comment. Fell out of my chair at that one.

Playbahnosh:

That's why I suggested that vacation thing. No better time than the pre-holiday season, when nothing noteworthy (or hateworthy for that matter) comes out. It will do good, I'm sure.

Meh. Maybe. But then my Wednesdays would suck even more. And I have some pretty shitty Wednesdays.

Playbahnosh:

Right, but what I mean was, you can't jugde a game by it's grapics only. Maybe I have problems dealing with change, getting old and stuff, but I'm not willing to accept the the current trend of "if it looks awesome, it's Da Game". I grew up on NES and Commodore games, and graphics didn't really matter then, you just had to fill in the blanks with your imagination, and I still have that skill. Sadly, kids nowdays don't. They require the whole game experience presented to them on a silver platter, they don't want to use their imaginations anymore, and that's sad.

Hell, I still play obscure games like Giants: Citizen Kabuto, just to giggle at the wisecracking mercs and stomp stuff with a seven story high monster, graphics be damned.

And I grew up with SNES and up, with a bit of NES because my best friend was less wealthy than me when we were 6 (give or take). And I still play Space Station Silicon Valley because I think it's hilarious and fun. But naturally, if SSSV also had great graphics and fewer glitches, it would be that much better. I never said graphics make the game, in fact I said that that's not the case. I was in agreement.

Instead of random crap like this, review something worthwhile like Mount&Blade. :(

Also, Majora's Mask and WW were far more amusing than OoT for me. But then I actually liked the sailing.

Heh. Me too. About the sailing.

I only played the first and A Link To The Past, and I leave it at that. I don't want to ruin the awesome experience that was Zelda to me.

The biggest mistake was Bionic Commando, was out on C64 before NES.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpHG3imEB3Q

Great

A major step up from last week

Hitler was so awesome.

I found it quite amusing. I don't know if it's better or worse than his old ones, but I do know that I laughed several times, particularly at the "identical midget twins" part.
It was enjoyable. That's what matters.

WhiteHowl:
I have a feeling that IHBT but, gotta disagree with that Zelda TP is better than OoT statement. OoT had some level of difficulty, TP was just piss-poor easy.

Jarelk:
Hey, I finally made an account. Loved the review Yahtzee! Though you talked a little too fast at some parts for me to understand, but I always watch them more then once anyway.

Shiuz91:

Littaly:
Oh my got you think Hitler was right? I thought you were stupid but not that stupid, how dare you even say such a thing?!

Seriously though, way better than last week's video :D

Dear Noob.
Read the dialog after the video and try not to make yourself sound like a twat with your next comment.

I think that guy was kidding.

Oh, and why do people think the "TP was better then OoT" was sarcastic? It wasn't, else it wouldn't fit in with the entire review.

When you follow it up with "I think Hitler was right," and the fact that it's always fun to piss off fanboys, you kinda get the feeling that the last line was only there to troll fanboys

So are you calling me the fanboy?

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