Better Representing Muslims: A Few Ideas

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Better Representing Muslims: A Few Ideas

Muslims don't always have to be antagonist of the war game.

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I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

AldUK:
I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Do the Muslims you know want to kill you if you don't become a Muslim yourself?

AldUK:
I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Aaaand the Bible includes a line about stoning gays to death and several about slaves. Should we really, truthfully, be tolerant of a religion that encourages the death penalty for homosexuals and the ownership of slaves?

Most Muslims aren't exactly on board with the idea of murderizing anybody who isn't Muslim, no matter what their holy book says.

That's interesting, article about portraying Muslims and a picture of Russian ultra nationalists, that's profiling there son

RoonMian:

AldUK:
I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Do the Muslims you know want to kill you if you don't become a Muslim yourself?

I recall reading a passage from the Koran that specifically forbids forced conversion. The logic being that Islam is so perfect that its perfection will be obvious, so no one should be forced to convert. Of course, fundamentalists of any stripe will seize on any passage they can argue means they get to kill people.

OT: I realized something similar about Omid while playing. The Walking Dead was one of the best examples of a diverse cast without the characters being reduced to stereotypes. Lee is similarly a character that is black, as opposed to a "black character" (i.e. he's black, but not defined solely by his race), not just in gaming but in most fiction I've seen.

Or maybe we could you know, play as one?

AldUK:
I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

And then you run into people like Sufyan al-Thawri, a medieval Muslim scholar who argues that the hadiths about execution should be used for those who politically betray the Muslim community, not refuse to join the religion (As Islam is both a religious and political system, with no clear divide between the two, this causes a lot of confusion).
As well, Quran 2:256 explicitly states that there shall be "no compulsion in religion".

Just like with the Bible, the Tripitaka of Buddhism and every other book assembled piecemeal by followers of a religion, context and a through reading are necessary to understand it. For instance, many parts of the Bible recommend shunning heretics, stoning them to death or excluding them from communities. But Jesus did not reject sinners, but protected them for their accusers and those who would punish them according to Biblical laws. Look to God for your morality, not books.

And I'm not even going to touch the stereotype accusation. Those sterotypes have the same grounding in reality that Honey Boo Boo does of portraying the average American; they exist, but they're not what you seem to expect.

OT: A really good article. I'm looking forward to seeing a military shooter where "brown skin" doesn't always equal "target". Too bad the new Medal of Honour game failed, because it actually sounds decent.

Falterfire:

AldUK:
I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Aaaand the Bible includes a line about stoning gays to death and several about slaves. Should we really, truthfully, be tolerant of a religion that encourages the death penalty for homosexuals and the ownership of slaves?

Most Muslims aren't exactly on board with the idea of murderizing anybody who isn't Muslim, no matter what their holy book says.

The problem comes from fanaticism. The Bible is a horrible book with terrible life lessons and even worse characters, and thankfully not many people follow it. Judaism and Christianity have been around long enough to have...mellowed...out some. They did their Crusades and Inquisitions and whatnot. Islam is the youngest of the three and still going through its difficult teenage years. And embracing a troubled teen doesn't make them any LESS a troubled teen.
I'm all for equality, but fanatic Muslims love to quote the Qur'an on how a truly devout Muslim won't allow other religions to exist.
And the idea that most Muslims aren't on board is...nice...but its the same idea that most Scientologists don't believe in aliens. Its what they say to outsiders. I'd bet that given a choice between a world of many religious beliefs, and one of ONLY Islam...most Muslims are going to choose the latter. Not that they aren't pleasant people, but in private they decry a lot of what people do.

SlightlyEvil:

RoonMian:

Do the Muslims you know want to kill you if you don't become a Muslim yourself?

I recall reading a passage from the Koran that specifically forbids forced conversion. The logic being that Islam is so perfect that its perfection will be obvious, so no one should be forced to convert. Of course, fundamentalists of any stripe will seize on any passage they can argue means they get to kill people.

The thing is: Just like the Bible the Quran is a whole clusterfuck of conflicting sentiments. Mostly because the Prophet went from small time merchant in Medina to all powerful autocratic emperor with direct link to God in Mekka while writing it. So the older suras are the nice ones (no killing, religious tolerance) while the later ones are the fucked up stuff. Sadly, fundemantalists have a solid foundation in preaching the radical stuff because of sura two which gives younger suras priority when suras conflict because God can do everything, including changing his opinion.

But what's important is that the Quran just as the Bible was meant as a means of authority, the foundation of a state religion as the societal glue in a newly emerging (or re-emerging in the case of the Bible) empire. The ruler could today say this and justify it with the Quran and tomorrow he could say the opposite and justify it with the Quran as well.

My point is that just because something is in the Quran or the Bible or the Veda or whatever doesn't mean that everyone is actually doing it or that even anyone is actually doing it.

Captcha "take an umbrella"... Looking out the window I feel that THAT should actually be in the Bible and everyone should be doing it... -_-

For me, the best muslim stereotype is Antonio Bandeiras' character in The 13th Warrior.

AldUK:
I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Where in the fuck did you read that?
"Exchange them with good intention and tolerance"

that sentence is repeated many, many times in different ways, even Islam is taken from Salam which means peace. the only case where you are allowed to kill is in war as far as my knowledje goes

What kind of documentary did you watch? get your fats straight

@RoonMian I'd really like to see examples of contradictions

TheKrigeron:

Where in the fuck did you read that?
"Exchange them with good intention and tolerance"

that sentence is repeated many, many times in different ways, even Islam is taken from Salam which means peace. the only case where you are allowed to kill is in war as far as my knowledje goes

What kind of documentary did you watch? get your fats straight

Sadly there is fucked up stuff like that in the Quran. In the ninth sura is a verse that tells you to "slay the idolaters wherever you find them" and because of the stuff I wrote earlier that overrides everything else because it is one of the youngest suras.

Falterfire:
Aaaand the Bible includes a line about stoning gays to death and several about slaves. Should we really, truthfully, be tolerant of a religion that encourages the death penalty for homosexuals and the ownership of slaves?

Most Muslims aren't exactly on board with the idea of murderizing anybody who isn't Muslim, no matter what their holy book says.

I'm hardly tolerant of Christianity either, truth is, I see all religions as a negative influence on the world, though some more than others. But what has that got to do with anything?

RoonMian:
Do the Muslims you know want to kill you if you don't become a Muslim yourself?

I haven't asked.

SlightlyEvil:
Of course, fundamentalists of any stripe will seize on any passage they can argue means they get to kill people.

Unfortunately we see this all too often these days. I really feel like a lot of people are running out of patience when their government tells them to be tolerant of a minority preaching bloodshed as God's will.

Thunderous Cacophony:
Look to God for your morality, not books.

No thanks. I'll look to myself for morality as I knew the difference between right and wrong and I don't need a two-thousand year old book of fairy tales to do it for me.

RoonMian:
My point is that just because something is in the Quran or the Bible or the Veda or whatever doesn't mean that everyone is actually doing it or that even anyone is actually doing it.

Very true, but that also doesn't change the fact that a significant number of people are doing exactly - or as close to exact as possible- what these books say. Look to Christian 'gay reform' camps in America for example.

TheKrigeron:
Where in the fuck did you read that?
"Exchange them with good intention and tolerance"

that sentence is repeated many, many times in different ways, even Islam is taken from Salam which means peace. the only case where you are allowed to kill is in war as far as my knowledje goes

What kind of documentary did you watch? get your fats straight

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm - 'fats'

TheKrigeron:

@RoonMian I'd really like to see examples of contradictions

All right, you challenged my Google-Fu.

Quran 8:61: "And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing."

Quran 9:5: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

And as I said, sura 9 takes precedence.

AldUK:

I haven't asked.

Well, if they were really following their militant missionary erm... mission... You would have noticed without asking I think.

Very true, but that also doesn't change the fact that a significant number of people are doing exactly - or as close to exact as possible- what these books say. Look to Christian 'gay reform' camps in America for example.

And are you condemning the whole Christian religion because of those camps? Because that's the vibe that others and I got from your first post.

Someone buy OP a beer!

DVS BSTrD:
Or maybe we could you know, play as one?

Seeing as how games have a problem putting up a female protagonist, that might take some effort. Though, unless the character speaks and acts through pre-scripted events in ways that demonstrates they are a normal person with a cultural heritage, while not being stereotypical, he'd just become a darker toned main character.

I think it would be interesting in a Spec Ops: the Line sense if you played a squad in Afhanistan, and one of the squad mates was a first/second generation Afghan immigrant. It could allow a viewpoint on the different cultures, how they conflict and what it's like to be different/outcast in their cultures, facing both racism from allies and culture shock from the Afghans.
It doesn't have to be Afghanistan, but you get the general gist of it. No game I know of shows the guilt one feels of fighting their own countrymen in the name of a different nation.

RoonMian:
Well, if they were really following their militant missionary erm... mission... You would have noticed without asking I think.

Very true, but that also doesn't change the fact that a significant number of people are doing exactly - or as close to exact as possible- what these books say. Look to Christian 'gay reform' camps in America for example.

And are you condemning the whole Christian religion because of those camps? Because that's the vibe that others and I got from your first post.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/05/28/uk-britain-killing-idUKBRE94O04Y20130528 Wouldn't it be nice if they had 'noticed.'

Condemning? Let's not be so dramatic. I disapprove of all religion because from what I can see with my own eyes it causes far more harm than good in the world, but I'm hardly on a one-man crusade against it. Not to mention my original post was in direct response to the article which talked about changing perceptions of a stereotype, if you re-read my first post in this thread you'll see that what I said is that the stereotype exists for a reason and I asked if we should really be so quick to overlook it based on a group of people who follow a religion which propagates violence. As to whether that last statement is true or not isn't in question, since the 'proof' is in it's own holy book, quotes from which are contained in the link I provided in my 2nd post.

I think its worth noting that these middle eastern countries don't harbor as many extremists as the media would have us believe. True some sects have put down roots in many Theocratic governments, but there is a reason books like Londonistan are written. Many of these radicalized preachers are actually kicked out of their middle eastern countries because they are too radical. They don't end up in places like the Netherlands, Britain, and France by choice. Remember, these are part of the "West" that they preach hate against. Many are exiles.

The Muslim world is not so violent as the fear mongers on Fox news would have you believe.

Apologies Robert, but I have to disagree with you in the strongest possible terms, though I imagine you'll do the same with me. The problem is that your trying to deal with the culture as individuals, figuring that "well I had muslim roomies, so I know what they are like" when those people were themselves the outsiders surrounded by a foreign culture that you talk about when dealing with soldiers. What's more a people cannot be judged by individuals within it, but by the people as a whole. A person (single) is fine, but a people, when they all get together and are taken as a whole, is something entirely different. This is the root of sociology, which is really the only way of dealing with or understanding things on a national or cultural level. Liberals, the peace at any price movement, and humanitarians like to try and focus on individuals and put a human face on problems, but that is ultimately counter productive in the large sense because what a person is like when approached in relative isolation as an individual, and what they are like when immersed with others of their own kind is entirely different. As much as people hate sociology in these arguments, it's the real deal and is exploited constantly by advertisers and similar sorts every day, and to great effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWwCKvvodBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1-8_JTR-cU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpGRBu7mzrg
hhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJOkyyI4AVkttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aml9VvhRXrE

The point of these links, which is just a tiny sampling is to show Muslim culture and how children are conditioned from an early age. Hate anyone non-muslim, kill them, Jews and Americans being particular targets. The entire Western World being likened to the devil. This is to say nothing of videos you can find of thousands upon thousands of Muslims running into the streets to pray while their leaders talk about murdering Americans and the people cheer and chant approval.

The thing to understand is that while actual fighters are a minority, the culture itself supports this behavior, and producers more fighters, keeping the ideas and rhetoric alive. Like people anywhere they are cunning enough to use what opportunities they are given, so they play to the media, liberal sentiment, and similar things. After all it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's easier to beat the US military by going to the media and appealing to the na´ve American left, than it is to actually fight us. If we give an opening due to morality it's going to be exploited. What's more on an individual level these guys are smart enough to conceal themselves when in a foreign culture, they are going to play the game, maybe even getting married and having children unaware of their true colors while waiting for the right opportunity. We've had cases with seemingly upright professors with a liberal seeming idealogy actually running information hubs for terrorist networks out of universities in the past. Not to mention the Muslim quasi-infiltration of the Latino/Hispanic population. The quickest way for a Muslim to get into the US undetected is to get into Mexico (relatively easy) and then sneak across the border that way, and then hide within the illegal fringe communities. Real Latinos might realize something is up (but they can play kindred spirit) but to an outsider if they primarily speak Spanish or pretend to, they can easily pass as being Latino and justify why they don't have any paperwork and exist off the radar. Believe it or not this is one of the major "under the table" reasons for concerns over border security as evidence of this going on was detected shortly after 9/11 and that's where a lot of concern over Muslim sleeper agents came from. This is one of the avenues of approach terrorist organizations teach their operatives.

Now, where you are correct is that within "The Muslim World" there are a lot of ethnic, religious, and cultural sub-divides. The thing is though that hatred of, and a desire to destroy Jews and The Western World is a unifying influence which factions that normally hate and prey on each other can agree on. This is why during Desert Storm, Saddam was able to hide military assets over the Iranian border to protect them despite the history of antagonism with Iran. It's also why you hear constant cries for "Jihad" as the idea is for ALL Muslims to put aside tribal and cultural differences to rally for a single purpose, and why Bin Ladin and Saddam both tried to style themselves as modern versions of Saladin, and invoke images of Crusaders. Yes there ARE minorities of people down there who are not Muslim, but they are not the controlling force, so it's very much "The Muslim World" as that is the overwhelming controlling force of the region.

The problem as I see it, is that the US is not morally equipped to fight a war against a culture, as it's contrary to everything we've been taught about how things should work. We can fight nations and infrastructures, but the idea of a culture like this where the "bad guys" are not a radical fringe, but rather the progressives are, is pretty much alien to everything we're taught to believe. This is why you don't see many videos like the ones I posted in the mainstream because people generally tend to find it too disturbing to see how things work, and exactly how deep this rabbit hole goes. The Muslim version of "Seseme Street" pretty much tells them to kill Americans and Jews and conditions the populance from a very early age to be a specific way. A very small minority might actually go and train, infiltrate the US, and prepare to set off bombs or whatever, but the culture itself supports them, much like we tend to support our military. Of course when questioned by foreigners with a gun to their head (we have enough military in the region to pretty much wipe the place out right now) the average non-fighter is going to play to the media, especially seeing as his words can paralyze the military more than all of the fighters working in concert could do. It's sort of like how if a foreign invader occupied the US, and some soldiers came up with machine guns and cameras and asked if you supported them, you'd say "yes, yes I do" and make it sound good because your no soldier. At the same time when your together with other Americans and they aren't around you'd be supporting what you see as the resistance.

As I said, I don't expect you or others to agree with me, but while I usually don't do so I put up a few links. You can find more if your REALLY curious you could fill up pages with that stuff.... people wonder sometimes why I think what I do... well there you go. On top of that I also had "anti-terrorist training" when I worked for the casinos, and should even have a certificate from Homeland Security around somewhere. At the end of the day I simply think that on this subject messages of tolerance are na´ve, and miss the point that while we're teaching tolerance, those cultures are bombarding their kids with messages of hatred and intolerance from pretty much the beginning of their ability to think. If you consider how much your childhood heroes in cartoons and such influenced you, as did what you learned in school and so on, imagine what it's like down there when they have an analogy to Mickey Mouse beaten to death by a Jew. Think about how that kind of thing doubtlessly affected an entire generation of Muslims, and then consider that it's constantly reinforced.

In closing though I'm going to say something a little contrary to the rest of my post. Islam itself is not the problem, the cultures built around it are the problem. People who bring up all the violence and intolerance in the Qua'ran miss the point that most religions are the same exact way, with rare exceptions. The first thing a religion does is present itself as the absolute truth and a path to salvation, and then pretty much mandates that everyone follows it or should be made to follow it. The Bible is full of tons of stuff both encouraging peace and tolerance, but then telling you "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and similar things, with the broad definition being that anyone who follows another religion is a witch because there is only ONE true religion and all others are the teachings of the devil in disguise. Christians shed tons of blood, as have Hindus, and even Buddhists, Taoists, and others have effectively been in their own little wars, even if mostly defensive ones.

I believe Islam can be practiced peacefully and alongside other religions, cultures, and societies. If you look at how Christianity adapted to the point where unless someone tells you your unlikely to even know what religion they follow, it's easy to see how Islam could adapt the same way without the sacred mosques, violent laws about drawing pictures of mohammad, need to kneel and face the holy land, special prayer rooms, etc. The problem is less the religion than the cultures that have been built up around it, which is a big part of why I believe if we effectively break the cultures in The Middle East, Islam will then be able to reform and assimilate better into global society. Islam is simply at a point where it pretty much demands everything be on it's terms, rather than on the terms of the rest of progressive global society. You can see the problems and how deep the rabbit hole goes when religion is used as an excuse to oppress 50% of the population (women) and outside women when meeting with officials are expected to adopt a submissive demeanor towards men no matter what kind of rank or authority she might otherwise have. When you look at that on a cultural level, and the degree of intolerance for people who disagree, you begin to see the problem. Can Islam be practiced while ignoring those bits? Of course it can. People practice christinity without running around killing anyone that's believed to be a "witch", although at one time that did happen.

I write this to end with a message of hope, and to show where I'm coming from in an overall sense.... and no, I do not believe most people from those cultures want progress. If that was the case when we liberated nations like Iraq and Afghanistan they wouldn't have immediately defined themselves as Islamic states, and we would have achieved originally stated goals like the liberation of women. Some people practicing Islam who were born abroad and entirely separated from those cultures DO managed to assimilate into society, showing that it is possible. Of course there is also the side issue of Muslim offshoots born away from The Middle East, like the "Black Muslim" faith which calls for race war as much as religious war, revolving about a guy called Yakub (look him up, Wikipedia has a fairly accurate version) who created white men to oppress black men in a tyranny which is soon destinied to fall apart. This doctrine is largely what inspired Manson's "Helter Skelter" the race war which whites would lose, but through preparation and the leadership of guys like him would one day recover.... but as I said that's just another face of the problem, and has nothing to do with the central issue this focuses on.

While I have known a few Muslims that were great people, and I know there are many more out there, I think the onus is on them, meaning muslims as a whole, to improve their overall standing in the world. I am all about personal responsibility and it is unfair to pass of the responsibility to represent these people on our media etc. the greater population of Islamists (there are billions) need to do some in-house self policing and improve their own face that is being shown to the world. At this point, rather than just say "I'm not like that", get off your collective asses and prove it to the world.

Now, I feel the need to state that if this were an ethnic group, I would not take this stance. But in this case this is a religion that has violent extreme elements (very large numbers of them) who do what they do IN THE NAME OF the religion traditionally spread at sword point that you are trying to sell me as being benevolent and nonviolent.

I am reminded of an MCSE course I took in early 2002 that was taught by an instructor who is Egyptian. He was traveling for work on 9/11/01 and flew back home with a group of co-workers. As he put it "You better believe they had me up against the wall frisking me and to tell you the truth, I didn't mind. In all honesty, not all of Arab Muslims are terrorists, but all of those terrorists were Arab Muslims".

After the last decade of global events carried out in the name of one Muslim sect or another or just in the name of Allah in general (because he, like pretty much every other all powerful god appears to be completely incapable of intervening and solving his own problems) combined with the general petty and bigoted intolerances that the religion is filled with (it is, it is as simple as that) I do not feel inclined to be open minded any longer, not like I used to be.

In my opinion, I don't hate muslims, I just feel that globally it is time for them to prove the stereotypes wrong themselves since the most actively vocal among them keep showing the world otherwise. Seems like we have reached that point.

Once again, I hate myself for reading the comments on an interesting article. The Escapist really needs a paywall.

Oh well, at least I got a new book to read. Perhaps some of you on this thread should read it too.

thisbymaster:
Fine, here is the deal Muslims stop bombing/shooting/killing us and each other then we can talk.
/Boston

Aaaand you nailed the entire topic down to the T with just a few simple words.

Oh, please. When has demonizing a group of ethnically and religiously semitic people ever backfired on a large western nation going through a severe economic depression?

Pass the bratwurst.

thisbymaster:
Fine, here is the deal Muslims stop bombing/shooting/killing us and each other then we can talk.
/Boston

Ooh! Can we get white people to stop shooting up schools while we're at it? /Sandyhook

Robert Rath:

A couple of Iraqi students stayed at my dorm as part of an exchange program during college. When I first met them I wanted to make an impression, so I mentioned that my sister was a Middle East journalist who'd lived in Beirut for three years.

I thought they'd be impressed by her bravery, or that maybe we'd find kinship in it - instead they snickered. "Beirut," snorted one. "Beirut is Disneyland Middle East."

God that just pisses me off. Nevermind that she's y'know LIVING IN AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT country, instead of "oh, that's pretty cool" it's "DUR HUR, Beirut is for casuals." I hate it when people burn olive branches.

I wonder if Mr. Rath will take a look at the vast majority of whatever entertainment that comes out of the Middle East (with the sole exception of our good friends in Israel) and see how wonderfully diverse and three-dimension characters that are Westerners, Europeans, Jews, Christians, Americans, or anyone that aren't Middle Eastern and/or Muslim are. Oh wait...we're all shown to be completely and irredeemably evil, up to Jewish people eating the eyes of Muslim babies and cackling like monsters. But then again, I suppose it's best Mr. Rath doesn't point that out, because even though I disagree with him often, I don't want him to get beheaded by a follower of the "religion of peace."

Mahoshonen:
Once again, I hate myself for reading the comments on an interesting article. The Escapist really needs a paywall.

Oh well, at least I got a new book to read. Perhaps some of you on this thread should read it too.

My thoughts exactly. For such an "open-minded" forum, the religiphobia gets really bad sometimes.

LysanderNemoinis:
I wonder if Mr. Rath will take a look at the vast majority of whatever entertainment that comes out of the Middle East (with the sole exception of our good friends in Israel) and see how wonderfully diverse and three-dimension characters that are Westerners, Europeans, Jews, Christians, Americans, or anyone that aren't Middle Eastern and/or Muslim are. Oh wait...we're all shown to be completely and irredeemably evil, up to Jewish people eating the eyes of Muslim babies and cackling like monsters. But then again, I suppose it's best Mr. Rath doesn't point that out, because even though I disagree with him often, I don't want him to get beheaded by a follower of the "religion of peace."

I think you should clarify your point otherwise you'll come off a bit of a bigot.

It's not good how things are on either side, and admittedly the press does focus on how our media might be offensive. Though it doesn't make it any less true.

Things should be done like Southpark, make fun of both sides (but please omit the crude humor).

Fantastic article.

I've been to North Africa/Arabian Peninsula/Middle-East a few times. I'm about to go again for three months to learn Arabic. While I'm there I'll be reading the Qu'ran because it seems appropriate to understand the place I'm living in.

That alone has been enough for some to brand me a "Muslim-lover!" and a "Muslim in disguise!"

They seem to ignore the fact I'm an atheist and I'm also reading the preliminary readings for my Philosophy+Politics degree. I just think more critically than they do, which is especially astounding to those who already think they know it all.

AldUK:
I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of ignorance masquerading as informed and unbiased opinion?

Have you even been to those parts of the world in any significant sense?

If I recall correctly, those great by-the-book Muslim empires known as the Caliphates expressly did not try to convert anyone, or stop them practising their religion.

Read the Qu'ran yourself rather than trusting the famously paradigmed religionofpeace.com. That site is a mish-mash of half-truths and uncontextualised talking-points. Not unlike Fox News. The very section you link only mentions the parts advocating it, out of context. It's an epic poem, so pulling verses out is even worse than pulling verses out of the bible.

I mean come on:

"For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking to the god of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous."

You can't possibly trust people who say shit like that.

I don't know a lot about Muslims or the Middle East/North Africa/Arabian Peninsula, but I know a damn site more about them and it than, I'd wager, anyone else who has commented on this article so far.

TakerFoxx:

Mahoshonen:
Once again, I hate myself for reading the comments on an interesting article. The Escapist really needs a paywall.

Oh well, at least I got a new book to read. Perhaps some of you on this thread should read it too.

My thoughts exactly. For such an "open-minded" forum, the religiphobia gets really bad sometimes.

It's a critically thinking echo chambre.

I'll leave you to enjoy the irony. It makes me angry more than anything.

Time to add some old school social criticisms from the past about religions of ALL stripes (though, admittedly, they bash Christianity the most):

Moral of the story: Religion is bullshit. Especially the fundamentalist versions.

It's fine if you want to believe in it, go right ahead. But I'll tell y'all something here and now: don't think your beliefs will shield you from my criticism or that it's a catch all against any criticisms, and about the time you infringe on someone else's life and freedoms simply because you don't agree with them and their beliefs, your own beliefs become null and fuckin' void.

Totally agree with most of this article

But If I can be allowed one nitpick....the Redguard one isn't a good example, in the Elder Scrolls, Redguard culture has been explained like crazy in the lore, its nothing like the stereotypical "Arab" portrayal

CrazyCapnMorgan:
Time to add some old school social criticisms from the past about religions of ALL stripes (though, admittedly, they bash Christianity the most):

Moral of the story: Religion is bullshit. Especially the fundamentalist versions.

It's fine if you want to believe in it, go right ahead. But I'll tell y'all something here and now: don't think your beliefs will shield you from my criticism or that it's a catch all against any criticisms, and about the time you infringe on someone else's life and freedoms simply because you don't agree with them and their beliefs, your own beliefs become null and fuckin' void.

Dont know why it quoted you and posted this >-<

my bad

Danny Ocean:
Fantastic article.

I've been to North Africa/Arabian Peninsula/Middle-East a few times. I'm about to go again for three months to learn Arabic. While I'm there I'll be reading the Qu'ran because it seems appropriate to understand the place I'm living in.

That alone has been enough for some to brand me a "Muslim-lover!" and a "Muslim in disguise!"

They seem to ignore the fact I'm an atheist and I'm also reading the preliminary readings for my Philosophy+Politics degree. I just think more critically than they do, which is especially astounding to those who already think they know it all.

AldUK:
I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of ignorance masquerading as informed and unbiased opinion?

Have you even been to those parts of the world in any significant sense?

If I recall correctly, those great by-the-book Muslim empires known as the Caliphates expressly did not try to convert anyone, or stop them practising their religion.

Read the Qu'ran yourself rather than trusting the famously paradigmed religionofpeace.com. That site is a mish-mash of half-truths and uncontextualised talking-points. Not unlike Fox News. The very section you link only mentions the parts advocating it, out of context. It's an epic poem, so pulling verses out is even worse than pulling verses out of the bible.

I mean come on:

"For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking to the god of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous."

You can't possibly trust people who say shit like that.

I don't know a lot about Muslims or the Middle East/North Africa/Arabian Peninsula, but I know a damn site more about them and it than, I'd wager, anyone else who has commented on this article so far.

I had made a mental note not to further comment on this thread in order to prevent escalation of emotions resulting in warnings being handed out. But your post actually ticked me off. What you're saying here is that you know more than anyone else on this subject why? Because you've been to a certain part of the world a few times? How about you tell us about your experiences there and provide actual reasoning behind your statement? As to the site I linked, it's the result of a google search, I knew that those passages existed, I simply needed to find a website quoting those passages to provide proof to my statement, something which you haven't done.

My point is, don't simply wade into a discussion to belittle somebody based on a rhetoric which you can't back up with facts and information. If you can, then by all means, post again and tell us all about why I and others here are wrong in feeling uneasy about holding out the peace laurels to a religion which is closely associated with international terrorism.

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