Zero Punctuation: Fable 2

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You know the jobs are pretty useless in this game. I mean once you buy two houses, go play some other game for a week and then put Fable 2 in and watch you wallet explode.

Now I just want Yahtzee to review Mirrors Edge. That would be a lovely roller coaster of annoying jokes.

I hope Yahtzee reviews Left 4 Dead next week, oh ho ho, I wonder what he will think, considering it was made by Valve.

I also find this rather contradictory - recently in an article for news.com.au Yahtzee wrote about the censorship of Silent Hill. In this article, he wrote that anyone who claimed that violence was essential to the gaming experience was A) More or less wrong and B) Slightly psychopathic. Yet here he is, complaining that being unable to hit children somehow damages his enjoyment.

Context. Someone's in need of it.

Yahtzee never said the violence against children was essential - it's just rather out of place in a game where you can murder everyone except children.

Ragdrazi:
Oh please. Graphics back then were not four pixels.

Hyperbole you dolt.

Ragdrazi:
In Fallout 2, when you shot a kid, you could blow out their entire side and see ribs. Every time they got hit they went "Ooh!," and they made a similar little kid scream when they died. And this was the same era in which the first Mortal Kombat was released. Parents were concerned about video game violence. What's changed is that developers no longer want to risk anything, and that means not pushing the envelope, even when it's already been pushed.

This is patently and absolutely false. If you cannot see the divide between Fallout 1 & 2's child killing and child killing in Fallout 3 or Fable 2 you have absolutely no perspective on anything. Fallout 1 and 2 were COMPUTER ONLY, which highly reduced the exposure. If the game was on a console it would have easily received an AO rating.

Then to say that companies and developers not committing career suicide (and it would be just that) is just because they don't want to push the envelope anymore is crap. Why don't you or Croshaw go make a game called "Child Killer/Scat Eater" and put your own names behind it? Oh yeah, because if it was picked up by the media your professional lives would be over. You're just totally full of shit.

"Child Killer"? Feh, you could kill children way back in Deus Ex! Well, maybe not "children", "a child" would be more accurate -- the annoying bugger in the Chinese marketplace, he was the only kid in the game, I think. And DX was ported to PS2 with a rating of M, so HAH!

Worm4Life:

Why don't you or Croshaw go make a game called "Child Killer/Scat Eater" and put your own names behind it? Oh yeah, because if it was picked up by the media your professional lives would be over. You're just totally full of shit.

Go play Derek Yu's freeware "I'm O.K - A Murder Simulator" and kill children all you want, then tell him that his current commercial effort Aquaria isn't selling (which would obviously be a lie) because he ruined his career.

The example's I've given may well be simply isolated cases, but I think that your "Child Killer/Scat Eater" argument seems rather "totally full of shit" itself.
Y's original argument was for the in-game freedom and as for me, I'm much more concerned about the ability to marry my dog are an individual of the same sex in Fable 2, killing children is not on top of my to-do list.

P.S. BTW, can you have same-sex marriage in Fable 2?

Knight Templar:

If you really think it was that bad don't get fable 2.

Well, like I said, I plan on checking it out. I like RPG's and like keeping track of their endless downhill death spiral of quality.

"Checking it out," however, will not involve handing Peter any o'my money.

Worm4Life:

Ragdrazi:
Oh please. Graphics back then were not four pixels.

Hyperbole you dolt.

Actually, that's my line.

Worm4Life:

Ragdrazi:
In Fallout 2, when you shot a kid, you could blow out their entire side and see ribs. Every time they got hit they went "Ooh!," and they made a similar little kid scream when they died. And this was the same era in which the first Mortal Kombat was released. Parents were concerned about video game violence. What's changed is that developers no longer want to risk anything, and that means not pushing the envelope, even when it's already been pushed.

This is patently and absolutely false. If you cannot see the divide between Fallout 1 & 2's child killing and child killing in Fallout 3 or Fable 2 you have absolutely no perspective on anything. Fallout 1 and 2 were COMPUTER ONLY, which highly reduced the exposure. If the game was on a console it would have easily received an AO rating. Then to say that companies and developers not committing career suicide (and it would be just that) is just because they don't want to push the envelope anymore is crap.

Hyperbole, you dolt. Controversial games of the time were getting a lot more exposure then just being on consoles. Games like Moral Kombat, Night Trap, and Rise of the Triad were getting exposure in the US congress. You talk about taking potentially career killing risk? That was the norm of the time. And each any every one of these games received its M-Rating just like Fallout. Not that it makes any sense to say the ESRB rates games based on "exposure". There has never been a video game released that has received an AO rating for anything but sexual content. That includes modern splatter-fests like Manhunt. And there's nothing like that level of gore or brutality in Fallout.

So yeah, the envelope was already pushed, creators were taking career killing risks back then they aren't taking now, and if they had wanted to try again the ESRB would have let them get away with it again.

Worm4Life:
Why don't you or Croshaw go make a game called "Child Killer/Scat Eater" and put your own names behind it? Oh yeah, because if it was picked up by the media your professional lives would be over. You're just totally full of shit.

See, and now you're rocketing down the hill of your own crazy so fast the wheels have come off. It's like I've insulted your mom, and I really don't think I have. Shh, shh, shh, Worm, it's ok. Would you like to talk about it? Here, have some hot cocoa with me.

Allan Foe:

Go play Derek Yu's freeware "I'm O.K - A Murder Simulator" and kill children all you want, then tell him that his current commercial effort Aquaria isn't selling (which would obviously be a lie) because he ruined his career.

Indy boy makes good? Nice to see someone's taking on the gutless blandeur of modern gaming.

Allan Foe:

P.S. BTW, can you have same-sex marriage in Fable 2?

Yes, and group sex and polygamy.

Allan Foe:
"Child Killer"? Feh, you could kill children way back in Deus Ex! Well, maybe not "children", "a child" would be more accurate -- the annoying bugger in the Chinese marketplace, he was the only kid in the game, I think. And DX was ported to PS2 with a rating of M, so HAH!

"so HAH!"? You have a game where you could kill a single kid and you're comparing it to games where you could enact a campaign of bloody genocide against the children of the game world, where your number of child kills would be tracked, where those children could be gibbed, lit on fire, shocked to death, bludgeoned to death, force pushed into a wall over and over. Now you're going to compare this with someone falling to their knees in Deus Ex? At least the "so HAH!" gives me the choice to pretend you realize how bad this argument is.

Allan Foe:
Go play Derek Yu's freeware "I'm O.K - A Murder Simulator" and kill children all you want, then tell him that his current commercial effort Aquaria isn't selling (which would obviously be a lie) because he ruined his career.

wow, I just looked a clip and you're off your rocker if you think that releasing some 2d side scrolling indie fart into a sea of random shock nonsense is anyway comparable to letting a player in Fable torch a kindergarten.

We're talking consoles, we're talking mainstream, and we're talking next gen graphics. You're comparing some stupid little side scroller not impacting some indie game's sales with Peter Molyneux letting you blow children's heads clean off(with a slow mo money shot), this makes you an idiot.

Ragdrazi:
Controversial games of the time were getting a lot more exposure then just being on consoles. Games like Moral Kombat, Night Trap, and Rise of the Triad were getting exposure in the US congress.

The difference between MK's blood heavy attract mode and blowing children's heads off is obvious. I'm sure ROTT and Duke Nukem 3d caught the same kind of fire that Mortal Kombat did ... oh wait they didn't because they were computer games.

There has never been a video game released that has received an AO rating for anything but sexual content. That includes modern splatter-fests like Manhunt. And there's nothing like that level of gore or brutality in Fallout.

Look comparing the climates now and then is pointless. It's almost as if you think there is a physical envelope that has been pushed, and everyone looks to that envelope before they say anything. Fallout 1 was not some world shattering singularity that moved everyone forward to your erudite way of thinking, sorry.

See, and now you're rocketing down the hill of your own crazy so fast the wheels have come off. It's like I've insulted your mom, and I really don't think I have. Shh, shh, shh, Worm, it's ok. Would you like to talk about it? Here, have some hot cocoa with me.

Most people like to ignore when someone has absolutely destroyed them in forums, but not you, you're gonna totally deflect it with your zany brand of humor.

I'll just restate myself, because it is the final word on this topic: No one is making full 3d games where you can blow off a child's limbs because it is taboo, and none of you are going to make them because as much as you'd like to deny it, you understand the reality of the situation. It's currently unacceptable to include that kind of material in a game, end of story. If someone made a game like this for the PC they'd be wise to release it anonymously.

this is best yatzee revue yet. hahahah
how you spell yaytzee and revues?

Worm, you're going to pop something in your brain you keep going like this.

Worm4Life:

"so HAH!"? You have a game where you could kill a single kid and you're comparing it to games where you could enact a campaign of bloody genocide against the children of the game world, where your number of child kills would be tracked, where those children could be gibbed, lit on fire, shocked to death, bludgeoned to death, force pushed into a wall over and over. Now you're going to compare this with someone falling to their knees in Deus Ex? At least the "so HAH!" gives me the choice to pretend you realize how bad this argument is.

The games he's comparing that to of course being Fallouts one and two, where you could do all those things... except Force Push, of course. So, having lost this argument on this somehow being based on graphical superiority, you're now twisting yourself around to say it's about number of instances, just to attack an example offered to you. So you're content to lose this, but just in a different way?

Worm4Life:
You're comparing some stupid little side scroller not impacting some indie game's sales with Peter Molyneux letting you blow children's heads clean off(with a slow mo money shot), this makes you an idiot.

Let's see here. You said I should team up with Yahtzee, who is an independent game designer, to make a child killing / poo eating game so that our careers could be ruined. You were shown that isn't the case, and so now your retconning what you said. Please don't do that.

Worm4Life:
The difference between MK's blood heavy attract mode and blowing children's heads off is obvious.

You think the ESRB agrees with you?

Worm4Life:
I'm sure ROTT and Duke Nukem 3d caught the same kind of fire that Mortal Kombat did ... oh wait they didn't because they were computer games.

Boy I'm sure glad Doom didn't catch any heat. This is ridiculous, you probably weren't even alive at the time. I was. Back then there wasn't a lot of difference between console and computer. We'd just come out of an era in which consoles were computers with the Commodore 64.

Worm4Life:

Look comparing the climates now and then is pointless. It's almost as if you think there is a physical envelope that has been pushed, and everyone looks to that envelope before they say anything. Fallout 1 was not some world shattering singularity that moved everyone forward to your erudite way of thinking, sorry.

Apology accepted, but I'm still failing to understand your "point" here. Amount of violence, amount of exposure has never in the past forced the ESRB to give an AO rating. And this has been demonstrated to you. Video game controversy has followed titles on every format conceivable, and this has been demonstrated to you. The accuracy of the graphics, with Fallout's gibs and ribs, was not a factor, and this this as been demonstrated to you.

I've really got to commend you for calming down a little at the end of your long post, but I don't know why you keep at this, after its all been proven to you. You seem to be taking this real personally, and I want to know why.

yes we can only hope

You know I just realized how funny it is that my wife gets an "allowance" and I decide how much she gets. She seems to be happy with this setup, though. I guess she isn't a feminist.

Ragdrazi:

Knight Templar:

If you really think it was that bad don't get fable 2.

Well, like I said, I plan on checking it out. I like RPG's and like keeping track of their endless downhill death spiral of quality.

"Checking it out," however, will not involve handing Peter any o'my money.

I hope you mean you'll just borrow the game.

I mean exactly whatever it is I mean to mean.

Ragdrazi:
I mean exactly whatever it is I mean to mean.

Then say what that is, clearly.

awesome - i giggled my tits off watchin this

and its all true even though i did like fable 2 i can see where yahtzee is coming from

Lordok:

WickedSkin:

Lordok:

WickedSkin:

Murdering children is the biggest taboo ever, and if someone breaks that, I will tell him "good job".

Fallout 1 anyone? O_o You even got a "perk" that tagged you as a child killer. Made people hate you :o

You are correct! There was porn to wasn't it? Also prostitutes.

There sure was. Fallout 1 and 2 are awesome examples of how freedom in games should be (Fallout 3 tried and failed and turned into Oblivion with guns and a crybaby main character :( ). Not saying all games should contain prostitutes, porn och child killing, but they were things that added to the fallout universe. Fable 1 and 2 are far from being as free as Mr Peter M wants us to think. Still they are somewhat good games. Just abit hyped :D

Sir, I take of my hat and salute you. You are a rose among fly agaric and dog crap. Maybe also other roses but you know what I mean.

Mr. M should be punished harshly whenever he speaks. Maybe the tens to hundreds of GBG (game breaking glitches), GG (general glitches) and GA (great annoyances) wouldn't be so bad. Also we wouldn't be fed lies about total freedom and whatnot.

I believe there's now a law against making kids killable in videogames unfortunatley. 'Tis a shame, but what can we do. Awesome review, and while I did enjoy the first game (PC), Fable II still isn't enough incentive to buy an Xbox360.

Great review!

One of the first in awhile where you never stop!

Knight Templar:

Then say what that is, clearly.

Clearly, I do not intend on giving Peter any of my money.

ReaperGeek:
I believe there's now a law against making kids killable in videogames unfortunatley.

Well, that law would be unconstitutional. But if we change the constitution - then we could all sorts of crazy laws!

Ragdrazi:
Worm, you're going to pop something in your brain you keep going like this.

I maintain this pace because momentum is an important factor in piercing bullshit.

The games he's comparing that to of course being Fallouts one and two, where you could do all those things... except Force Push, of course. So, having lost this argument on this somehow being based on graphical superiority, you're now twisting yourself around to say it's about number of instances, just to attack an example offered to you.

Sorry, no. Fallout 1 and 2 do not equal next gen graphics, Deus Ex doesn't either. I mean just look at some of the pictures from the Fallout 3 child killing mod.
They're creepy http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7114/37611226586353gq4.jpg
That's not equivalent to Fallout 1 or 2, that is not equivalent to Deus Ex, that is not equivalent to anything created in gaming up until THIS VERY MOMENT, and it is infinitely understandable and defensible why this content was not included in a major cross platform release.

Let's see here. You said I should team up with Yahtzee, who is an independent game designer, to make a child killing / poo eating game so that our careers could be ruined. You were shown that isn't the case, and so now your retconning what you said. Please don't do that.

It's a bald faced LIE to say that the Aquaria guy is in the same position as Peter Molyneux, and it's also a lie to say that the little side scroller he made would be anywhere near as bad as a full 3d slo-mo murder money shot on as many children as you wanted. You're just lying when you make these comparisons, there is a massive difference.

You think the ESRB agrees with you?

Does it matter? We're not talking about that, we're asking if it's a good idea to put this kind of thing in your game or not.

Boy I'm sure glad Doom didn't catch any heat. This is ridiculous, you probably weren't even alive at the time.

Don't pull those kind of lines. It makes you look bad, and in this case stupid because you're flailing against someone you accuse of being a child.

I was. Back then there wasn't a lot of difference between console and computer. We'd just come out of an era in which consoles were computers with the Commodore 64.

Sorry no. The major Doom controversy was Columbine related, at least the Doom controversy us youngins remember. ID wishes there was that kind of controversy when Doom was released. Bringing up ROTT was a major mistake which you're now trying to distance yourself from with Doom, which was featured on a bunch of consoles eventually ANYWAY.

Apology accepted

Earlier you purported to be an adult, try to remember that.

Amount of violence, amount of exposure has never in the past forced the ESRB to give an AO rating. And this has been demonstrated to you.

Though Fallout 1 and 2 would have received an AO rating(if they were on consoles), and that's what I said. Oh yeah, and it has forced them to give an AO rating, except the games were taken back and retooled, Manhunt 2 specifically. So you're not only wrong in trying to misrepresent my point, but you're actually wrong in the statement you make against my misrepresented point! Weird!

Video game controversy has followed titles on every format conceivable, and this has been demonstrated to you.

Sure, yeah, okay. What are you saying here, "we've always had controversy so why aren't they making more"?

The accuracy of the graphics, with Fallout's gibs and ribs, was not a factor, and this this as been demonstrated to you.

No, wrong. To say that nothing changes because of graphics is total bullshit, the more realistic games become the more the rules change slightly, this is undeniable. You're going to tell me Custard's Revenge is equivalent to Artificial Girl?

I've really got to commend you for calming down a little at the end of your long post, but I don't know why you keep at this, after its all been proven to you. You seem to be taking this real personally, and I want to know why.

Your bullshit is my responsibility unfortunately, since no one here is going to own up to how out of touch they are.

Ragdrazi:

Knight Templar:

Then say what that is, clearly.

Clearly, I do not intend on giving Peter any of my money.

For fucks sake stop talking in riddles, are you going to rent the game or download it?

Hell even if you do buy Fable 2 Peter isn't geting your money so stop bitching.

He's boycotting the game! Stick it to the man for not letting you virtually kill children!

Worm4Life:
I maintain this pace because momentum is an important factor in piercing bullshit.

No, it just makes you sound crazy and obsessed. I'm going to try to cut out as much of your sheer word mass as possible.

Worm4Life:
It's a bald faced LIE to say that the Aquaria guy is in the same position as Peter Molyneux,

I couldn't be lying to make such a comparison, not only because I didn't make the comparison, but because one couldn't lie in this way. One could only be mistaken. And if Allan had compared Derek Yu to Peter Molyneux then yes, he would be mistaken in thinking it be apt. But you didn't ask him make that comparison. He compared Derek Yu to Yahtzee Croshaw, and that comparison is very apt. Please do not alter what he said to make it fit what you'd rather it be.

Worm4Life:

You think the ESRB agrees with you?

Does it matter? We're not talking about that, we're asking if it's a good idea to put this kind of thing in your game or not.

Were we? Because when I read what you said, you appear to be saying the ESRB would give an AO for this content. And that's what I disproved for you. So have you changed what we're talking about after the fact, after you've lost, or am I merely mistaken. Everyone here knows its the former but I'm giving you an out.

Do I think it's a good thing in a game? I don't know. It would depend on the game.

Worm4Life:
ISorry no. The major Doom controversy was Columbine related, at least the Doom controversy us youngins remember. ID wishes there was that kind of controversy when Doom was released.

So now you'd like to distance yourself from the fact that it did take heat?

Worm4Life:
I Bringing up ROTT was a major mistake

ROTT and Duke Nukem had right wing citizen groups up in arms, but you're right, I thought they brought ROTT to congress, but they didn't. It's not like that exactly matters. I mean, Jack Thompson never brought a damn thing before congress, hasn't had a single success regulating video games at all, and yet he's feared by this generation.

Worm4Life:

Apology accepted

Earlier you purported to be an adult, try to remember that.

Being as polite as you're allowing me to be, kid.

Worm4Life:

Though Fallout 1 and 2 would have received an AO rating(if they were on consoles), and that's what I said. Oh yeah, and it has forced them to give an AO rating, except the games were taken back and retooled, Manhunt 2 specifically.

Correct. And yet still, in this supposedly more naturally repressive "next gen" environment, Manhunt 2 presents more gore then Fallout. And it's on a console. So, if they can get away with more gore, more shocking content, how would Fallouts one and two have received AOs on a console, and why wouldn't Fallout 3 been able to get away with it today? It's not that I'm out arguing you here, its that your contradicting yourself a lot.

Worm4Life:
IYou're going to tell me Custard's Revenge is equivalent to Artificial Girl?

No, you're right. We look at Custer's Revenge today and we say it's the most ridiculous thing we've ever seen. You can put videos of it on YouTube, and you can't do that for Artificial Girl. Back then Custer's Revenge was kept behind counters in unmarked boxes. Just because you look at it today as stupid looking pixels doesn't mean people back then didn't find it just as risque and enticing. Just because Artificial Girl is fully rendered now doesn't make it any more controversial now then Custer was then.

Just because you look at the child killing mod and find it creepy, doesn't mean that we didn't look at the child killing in Fallout one and two and find it just as creepy.

Worm4Life:

Your bullshit is my responsibility unfortunately,

Wow. You've got some kind of weird fixation there don't you. Please don't tell me I got to get mods involved in this...

Knight Templar:

Hell even if you do buy Fable 2 Peter isn't geting your money so stop bitching.

Hmm. Are you sure. Because I'd think he would.

Worm4Life:
He's boycotting the game! Stick it to the man for not letting you virtually kill children!

Well, I don't know. I don't think the child killing would fit in a game as obnoxiously cheery as Fable. But the point the review was making, of course, was that Molyneux really couldn't claim the game had complete freedom and still fit it within the framework he wanted.

And of course, I'd defend the child killing in video games because I defend the first amendment, and find people who don't annoying. Particularly those who are simply to... afraid to.

EnglishMuffin:
Please rip into that piece of shit Fallout 3 next.

Edgy dude is edgy.

i hope he does a review of gears of war 2 or guitar hero world tour next week!

Ragdrazi:
Wow. You've got some kind of weird fixation there don't you. Please don't tell me I got to get mods involved in this...

The first resort of someone winning an argument? Pure class.

Worm4Life:
It's a bald faced LIE to say that the Aquaria guy is in the same position as Peter Molyneux,

I couldn't be lying to make such a comparison, not only because I didn't make the comparison, but because one couldn't lie in this way. One could only be mistaken. And if Allan had compared Derek Yu to Peter Molyneux then yes, he would be mistaken in thinking it be apt. But you didn't ask him make that comparison. He compared Derek Yu to Yahtzee Croshaw, and that comparison is very apt. Please do not alter what he said to make it fit what you'd rather it be.

Hey great you just admitted that what this Aquaria guy does has absolutely no bearing or relation on what someone does with a multi-platform major release, case closed on that. I'd appreciate it if you could provide a new example(you can't).

So now you'd like to distance yourself from the fact that it did take heat?

Haha, what? It certainly wasn't equivalent to the shit storms over console video games.

ROTT and Duke Nukem had right wing citizen groups up in arms, and your right, I thought they brought ROTT to congress, but they didn't.

Woah, right wing groups up in arms? That's how you could tell it is serious.

But that doesn't exactly matter. Jack Thompson never brought a damn thing before congress, he hasn't had a single success regulating video game, and yet he's feared by this generation.

Yeah, it's almost like people are giant alarmist babies.

Being as polite as you're allowing me to be, kid.

Sorry, I was trying to say the text I quoted was childish, not scathing.

Correct. And yet still, in this supposedly more naturally repressive "next gen" environment, Manhunt 2 presents more gore then Fallout.

Did you also boycott Manhunt because Yahtzee told you so, or do you just not know what gore means? A better example would probably be Soldier of Fortune, which is out of the equation because you're murdering turrists, not children.

Just because Artificial Girl is fully rendered now doesn't make it any more controversial now then Custer was then.

If you had anything like either on a modern console, yes, you'd see far more controversy.

Ragdrazi:
Well, I don't know. I don't think the child killing would fit in a game as obnoxiously cheery as Fable. But the point the review was making, of course, was that Molyneux really couldn't claim the game had complete freedom and still fit it within the framework he wanted.

Well you can't rape someone either. Is this a valid point against Assassin's Creed? Is it better to just remove the children like every GTA game? Can anyone claim complete freedom in any game it's claimed in? No of course not, it's a non-point made by a non-reviewer.

And of course, I'd defend the child killing in video games because I defend the first amendment, and find people who don't annoying. Particularly those who are simply to... afraid to.

Defend it, fine. However you lose this whole 'first amendment' angle when you act as if it's something we should expect. If you want to pave new ground for the first amendment you should, but don't decry other people for doing what you never would. If you really gave a shit you'd be out there trying to 'Free Max', but you probably don't even know what I'm talking about.

honesty yahtzee, this is the noun that inspires our appreciation for you
*nod*

Ragdrazi:

Knight Templar:

Hell even if you do buy Fable 2 Peter isn't geting your money so stop bitching.

Hmm. Are you sure. Because I'd think he would.

Screw you, if you're not going to speek stright or stop dancing around questions I'm through talking to you.

i hope he does one on either fallout 3, Gears 2, or Mirrors Edge... i think it would be interesting

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