Escape to the Movies: Man of Steel

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SuperMan as the flawed hero? Thats......not good.

Ok so in story telling there are a set of archetypes that appear in classical story's through all of human history. I do not know that everyone one would agree on exact number of them or how to define them but there is one archetype that is always popular. Superman is the Demi-god.

Specifically the direct offshoot of the Hero archetype. Characters like Hector, King Aurthur, and The Kid from Bastion are good examples of this. Characters that are at once larger then life but still very human and vulnerable. The hero is always virtuous and stalwart. The hero knows what the score is and which side they are on, honest to a fault and always ready for whatever challenge is over the next horizon.

While the Flawed Hero is someone who want's to do good but is largely obstructed by their own flaws and constantly screw up. Characters like Spiderman, Batman, Ironman, Lancelot, and Achilles.

The Demi-God could be any other type of hero (Hero,Anti-hero,Flawed hero) accept that their traits are always magnified. Hercules is a good example of a flawed Hero who is also a Demi-god. Always seeking to great deeds and slaying monsters but never able to be happy for long because his own rage are a strong as his valor and he kills friends and foes alike.

But Superman is the Hero Demi-god. He is everything the hero is but with the power to act without compromise. He is the ideal and perfect exemplar of his archetype. He fits into the same category as Jesus, Buddha, and Maui.

Of course good characters are often a mix of more then one archetype just like real people are. This is why the flawed hero is generally more interesting then the strict hero. They have issues that we can relate to. But it is just not who Superman is. I do not know if you could make that work for him unless he goes through character growth and becomes the Hero he wants to be by the end of the movie.

I'll see it just for Michael Shannon; even in mediocre films, he's amazing to watch.

I never ever liked Superman, and that was before I heard he was imagined as "God" in a super hero costume. Lame. Honestly the best thing about the Dark Knight trilogy in my opinion was the writing, or rather a few REALLY good dialogue sequences. I don't know if Christopher Nolan wrote those scenes or not, but I like the tone of them and the movies. That said.. if this really was made for people who never liked superman, guess it might be worth checking out for me.

Great review Bob, oh and I really hope Del Toro delivers too.

Sorry about Tim. You guys will pull through it though.

When you remove Bob's constant undeniable bias (he hated Amazing Spiderman too because...potato), this sounds like a spectacular movie. Will see tomorrow.

Ashoten:
While the Flawed Hero is someone who want's to do good but is largely obstructed by their own flaws and constantly screw up. Characters like Spiderman, Batman, Ironman, Lancelot, and Achilles.

How is Batman a Flawed Hero? What's the character flaw that prevents him from succeeding?

So now we know which persons will be making the next DBZ movie then.
Please make it good this time!

ah, so good but not great? I agree maybe we need to move away from the Nolan-ness.

Unusually, I actually agree with a lot of Bob's criticism, but I don't think the flaws are as serious as he makes out. It's not completely joyless, there were a few moments in the film when the audience laughed. But, yeah, much less so than most Marvel films. I do agree that it was hard to believe their was any attraction between Superman and Lois, despite both actors doing a great job, it was lacking in the script.

Overall, I really enjoyed it and I'm such a Superman fanboy I went in my Kingdom Come Superman t-shirt.

TsunamiWombat:
he hated Amazing Spiderman too because...

it was a mindnumblingly stupid CW production on a mass budget that only gets even a smidgen of Stockholm Syndrome-esque love from people simply due to the over-dramatic disappointment of Spider-Man 3, who's biggest crime was just that there was too much going on to sustain one movie. I mean just take out Venom and that would've A) given HobGoblin/Sandman more screen time to make a tighter film and B) gotten people MASSIVELY hyped for a Spidey 4 if the final shot was Venom lunging toward the screen at that belltower scene. But it's nowhere near as bad as you all think it is ("but but Emo Spidey Grrrr! STFU -_-). It was just bloated as all hell because of too much studio interference and "d00d we gotz to sell moar toyz of moar popular characters lawl!"

With the ASM the studios won and that movie was nothing BUT a toy commercial. The Lizard was almost Star Wars: Clone Wars levels of plasticy...

So, essentially, the biggest problem is that it could've used a better screenplay? OK, then.

That all I need to hear (it's good) so onward to tomorrow (watching it with my uncle)! I guess I will find out tomorrow if I agreed with Bob statement. In saying so if it did turn out bad, I would of still watch it tomorrow as there is no way I am watching After Earth (I never intend to watch another M Night movie after The Lady in the Water)!

Falseprophet:

Ashoten:
While the Flawed Hero is someone who want's to do good but is largely obstructed by their own flaws and constantly screw up. Characters like Spiderman, Batman, Ironman, Lancelot, and Achilles.

How is Batman a Flawed Hero? What's the character flaw that prevents him from succeeding?

Guilt, revenge, feelings of powerlessness over the death of his family, duty at the expense of himself. There's alot of anger and mistrust is his newer persona that has a tendency to get him into trouble. Rejecting help when he needs it and sometimes letting someone like joker push his buttons and blind him to what's really going on. I dunno I think it fits.

Just got back from seeing it, amazing movie...absolutely everything I hoped the movie would be. If you have doubts about this moving not living up to the hype don't, its freaking awesome.

I actually found the movie to be pretty damn good, i've accepted that Nolan Verse movies have no connection to the comics outside of person place and maby thing.

And quiet frankly i like this superman, he was angsty or emo that Bob had us believed, he was a guy looking for his place in the universe.

And i LOVED how everything tied together and how everything was explained, it expanded not only superman but the world he lived in and actually had really inspiring moment, like when:

Well that actually sounds like fun.

TsunamiWombat:
When you remove Bob's constant undeniable bias (he hated Amazing Spiderman too because...potato), this sounds like a spectacular movie. Will see tomorrow.

To be fair, Amazing Spider-man did suck a bag of floppy donkey dicks.

Loki_The_Good:

Falseprophet:

Ashoten:
While the Flawed Hero is someone who want's to do good but is largely obstructed by their own flaws and constantly screw up. Characters like Spiderman, Batman, Ironman, Lancelot, and Achilles.

How is Batman a Flawed Hero? What's the character flaw that prevents him from succeeding?

Guilt, revenge, feelings of powerlessness over the death of his family, duty at the expense of himself. There's alot of anger and mistrust is his newer persona that has a tendency to get him into trouble. Rejecting help when he needs it and sometimes letting someone like joker push his buttons and blind him to what's really going on. I dunno I think it fits.

That's the thing about Batman...at least with the guilt part of it. The powerlessness I get, so becoming the martial arts badass I get, sure. But guilt? I mean he was a little kid, there was literally NOTHING he could have done to stop those mugger dudes anyways. Peter Parker feels guilty because he actually had the chance to stop the guy that wound up killing Uncle Ben but didn't due to his own vendettas, so it's easier to see why he blames himself. With Bruce though, yeah your parents dying is majorly tragic and all, but we need like Robin Williams' character from Good Will Hunting to keep telling him "Bruce...it's not your fault...BRUCE...IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT..."

I dunno, I just think a lot of other superheros have more baggage than Bruce that don't end up as big of the No Friends reclusive cynic as he becomes in his adult years. But that's just me.

Got a big feeling that this is for Moviebob the same thing as with the Dark Knight Rises. He doesn't like it but tries to find ways to not break it into the ground, despite he will non-stop in future videos. My guess? It's a gotta be great movie, Moviebob just doesn't feel that way.

the way he decried this movie it sounds pretty perfect.
(No i'm not 14 or i like warhammer 40K)
But i've never really like superman because he's the sort of character you're not meant to think to much about.

That's not to say he's never worked for me, I think he's works and the head of the justice league or when Clark kent is the main character e.g. new adventures of superman.
But whenever he's going solo....
I don't know, it just he's presented as all good all powerful but he never seem to be doing much good. When he's only a side you can image that he does that off screen but when Superman is centre stage i start to wonder why he's flirting with Louis what ad that same time he can probably hear at least twenty people who need his help.
Or is there like no crime anywhere in the world going on at that time?
http://www.crimevictimservices.org/page/sexassault/76
I mean if he spends ten minutes playing catch with Jimi that's 13 forceable rapes he could have prevented (2010 source above)

From the review sounds like that's kind of can i save everyone? problem is the exact sort of thing that the film addresses
Will go to see

Well I'm not a Superman fan but I am a Nolan fan. Still watching it.

Joriss:
Got a big feeling that this is for Moviebob the same thing as with the Dark Knight Rises. He doesn't like it but tries to find ways to not break it into the ground, despite he will non-stop in future videos. My guess? It's a gotta be great movie, Moviebob just doesn't feel that way.

Okay, why do you think this? He said it was a good movie. A flawed movie, but a good one. Why can't there be problems in a movie and still be good. Just because the movie isn't a perfect one doesn't mean its bad. Heck, I thought the movie was great and I had major problems with it. (mainly with the chemistry between the two main leads) Does that mean its bad? No! It's great. It just has a lot of problems.

pfft, No one liked 90's superman. Not even in the 90's.

Also, enjoy Tim Tebow when they truck him out for being left handed. (I really think that's it)

As long as the action sequences are good then I'm sold.

nice to know the NFL has put the too douchiest quarterbacks on one team eh bob?

I figured thats what the movie would be like, im not surprised at all

I saw it last night @ midnight and I liked it. Nolan doesn't do "grim 'n' gritty", he does "grounded and believability" which means there is an in-story reason for everything, and the story is driven by characters' decisions and emotions. Mainly, young Clark's feelings of alienation when he discovers he's different and sets out to find the answers, and Lois Lane's journalistic instincts drive her to find out the truth of this mystery man. It wasn't Superman himself being dark, it was the atmosphere of the world around him when Zod & his minions (who were suitably scary and dangerous, as they should be) came a-knockin'. Speaking of Zod, his portrayal was awesome, where under that veneer of cold and calculating determination was white-hot psychotic fury! My only gripes are how

Lets be honest with ourselves... Dark & gritty are two words that should NEVER be used to describe Superman.

When I heard that Nolan was working on a Superman film, my immediate reaction was "Aw CRAP!" Until I heard that it was 52 universe Superman.

Again... Lets be honest; the 52 universe SUCKS!!!

-Batman looks like an Ironman Knock off.
-Power Girl is dressed all conservatively.
-Wonder Woman is dressed like some kinda "Yummy mummy".
-and Green Lantern... is gay!

It's like Marvels "ultimate" comics; anything can happen and nothing actually counts.

xaszatm:

Joriss:
Got a big feeling that this is for Moviebob the same thing as with the Dark Knight Rises. He doesn't like it but tries to find ways to not break it into the ground, despite he will non-stop in future videos. My guess? It's a gotta be great movie, Moviebob just doesn't feel that way.

Okay, why do you think this? He said it was a good movie. A flawed movie, but a good one. Why can't there be problems in a movie and still be good. Just because the movie isn't a perfect one doesn't mean its bad. Heck, I thought the movie was great and I had major problems with it. (mainly with the chemistry between the two main leads) Does that mean its bad? No! It's great. It just has a lot of problems.

Oh there's nothing wrong with that, I'm just comparing it to Bob's reaction to The Dark Knight Rises. He said it was a good movie but afterwards he mocks it for all it's flaws and how bad he thought Bane was and so on, that's just my point.

I know it's a stock-comment from a stock-does-not-really-care-about-superman-fan, but Superman is still a Boring Invincible Hero.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I will still see the movie, but I do not imagine I will get the same thrill out of it as say the Avengers or Batman.
You know what blatant omnipotent Superman-expy I do like, though? The Sentry. Why? Because the Sentry is fucking insane. Not insane as 'ax-crazy' but insane as 'Oh-my-god-too-many-people-around-me-I'm-going-to-cry-and-go-catatonic'.
Why am I saying this? Because A: Even if this movie proves good, I doubt the sequel will avoid the 'gee what are we going to throw at Superman this time?' problem and B: I fucking hope The Sentry is in Avengers 2 (Oh, I know, he won't be, but it would be an hilarious cameo).

misterprickly:
Lets be honest with ourselves... Dark & gritty are two words that should NEVER be used to describe Superman.

When I heard that Nolan was working on a Superman film, my immediate reaction was "Aw CRAP!" Until I heard that it was 52 universe Superman.

Again... Lets be honest; the 52 universe SUCKS!!!

-Power Girl is dressed all conservatively.

-and Green Lantern... is gay!
.

..How are these two things 'bad'? How do they relevantly affect the character in any way? What, power-girl revolves around her boobs? Really?
What makes the Green Lantern an interesting character is his sexuality? Really? It's not being an interplanetary space-police? Or kicking ass with the most powerful-weapon in the universe? No, it's about that he kisses dudes?
What..The..Actual..Fuck?
I sincerely hope I have misinterpreted your intentions.

Hooray I'm not a superman fan. Now another movie to add to my summer watch list.

Realitycrash:

misterprickly:
Lets be honest with ourselves... Dark & gritty are two words that should NEVER be used to describe Superman.

When I heard that Nolan was working on a Superman film, my immediate reaction was "Aw CRAP!" Until I heard that it was 52 universe Superman.

Again... Lets be honest; the 52 universe SUCKS!!!

-Power Girl is dressed all conservatively.

-and Green Lantern... is gay!
.

..How are these two things 'bad'? How do they relevantly affect the character in any way? What, power-girl revolves around her boobs? Really?
What makes the Green Lantern an interesting character is his sexuality? Really? It's not being an interplanetary space-police? Or kicking ass with the most powerful-weapon in the universe? No, it's about that he kisses dudes?
What..The..Actual..Fuck?
I sincerely hope I have misinterpreted your intentions.

Have you ever read a Power Girl comic? In the comics she's asked "Why don't you wear a mask?" She replies...

image

As for Green Lantern... Yes it is bad. Why? Because it doesn't REALLY add anything! One minute he's white, then black, then Latino, then an angry red head and now GAY; what's next the bipolar version?

So MovieBob thinks it's Meh...Awesome!

I learned a long time ago that when it comes to Moviebob, he has this weird thing going on that any movie he thinks is Meh usually turns out to be Awesome (Christopher Nolan's Batman, new Star Trek series), and what ever he thinks is Awesome is usually just Meh (The Avengers and all the movies building up to it, Spiderman series).

Great to hear the movie is Awesome Bob...Thanks!

;)

Bob was the one person I was expecting to gush about the movie, but it definitely puts those other negative reviews from non-geeky critics into perspective a bit more (didn't hurt that he explained some more plot details that are unique to this reboot than other critics who's main point of focus seemed to be that it wasn't as fun as the original Reeves movies).

I really thought they were going to go the Jesus route but I shouldn't know they weren't after Zod was the villain. The first movie would've been about getting people to accept him by performing miracles and passive aggressively fighting overly suspicious haters like Lex Luthor (and I guess the military) by showing that he was truly good, THEN you bring in Zod in the sequel to ask "Why bother?" and see where that goes from there.

Anyway, wonder what this means for DC's Justice League plans. Will it all really start with the Batman reboot?

I'm a Superman fan and I fucking loved it. He didn't feel like a nineties anti-hero, he felt like a nice guy who happens to have to ability to fly. He's serious, but not dark and edgy; his most brooding period is as a teenager and don't most teenagers have enough problems without dangerous super-powers manifesting? And he does have some fun. Hell, did you see the look on his face during his first flying scene?

Honestly, it's a better Superman film the 1978 and a damn good lead in to a shared DC universe.

Falseprophet:

Ashoten:
While the Flawed Hero is someone who want's to do good but is largely obstructed by their own flaws and constantly screw up. Characters like Spiderman, Batman, Ironman, Lancelot, and Achilles.

How is Batman a Flawed Hero? What's the character flaw that prevents him from succeeding?

The deep psychological scar from watching his parents murdered in front of him. It is both his motivation to stop crime as well as the reason he cannot form any meaningful long lasting relationships and like to brood alone. This is also the reason he does not use guns and locks criminals up that are too dangerous to let live such as the Joker. Batman knows that the Joker will escape again and that he will kill more people yet he still holds out some hope that he can be cured or controlled.

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