Jimquisition: PS4 - Doing Nothing, Meaning Everything

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I think sony while doing the right thing also knew that they would risk third-party support, what's to say EA or Ubisoft wouldn't make there titles exclusive to the xbox one just to give the middle finger to consumers. However at the end of the day it will be the size of sony's bank account compared to microsoft's that will make third-party decide to release on a restriction based platform that only the super rich own and alienate there fans or do we go multiplatform and make everyone happy?

I laregely disagree. If a company, despite the pressure of publishes and their competition, keeps things the same and doesn't dick over their customers, they become very worthy of praise. The whole idea that they 'did nothing' isn't actually true anyway. What they did was release an updated product with greater support for things that we like while avioding adding anything (except possible PS + requirement for multiplayer) that we didn't like. Sony 'doing nothing' would be them not releasing a new product at all and simply saying that if you don't like Xbone, buy a PS3 instead. That would have been 'doing nothing' and that would not have been worthy of priase.

And as you said Jim, this had to be a difficult descision. The fact that they made the right descision despite the pressure is absolutely worth the accolades they are getting. A big part of this stems from our relief. Those of us that count gaming as a core hobby likely felt that we would buy one of the new consoles no matter what draconian things it included. We worried that Sony would follow suit to Microsoft and play the same game (as we've seen so many other industries indirectly collude to do). And if they had done that, we'd have been arguing which one was trying to screw us worse and pick the lesser of two evils. Now, we don't have to. The apocalypse has been canceled because we've been given a way out. Thank God for Jim and thank Thor for Sony.

MichaelMaverick:
People are way more unjustified in applauding this. A year or two after launch, Sony's pulling a 180. Mark my words.

And the moment they do, they'll get the same enraged response. Worse, perhaps, as it would smell strongly of "betrayal", since Sony will be percieved as the good guys of this generation by virtue of not being evil imbeciles.

Until that hypothetical time arrives...*raises a glass to Sony*

thanatos388:
While you can still share disc based games you cannot game share and sony will most definitely move in a more digital centered market in the near future.

You mean like the Microsoft's 10 family member thingy?

I don't know about that, if you interpret their system in the most gamer friendly manner popular then you would have a system that does far more damage to the publishers than used games ever could. Microsoft wouldn't give the publishers such a big bone only to take them behind the shed and shoot em.

Fundamentally though, I would say the system their implementing has everything to do with disc based game sharing. Unlike Steam which is more for personal use, the Xbox One will typically sit in the living room and for larger households be a family device. If little Timmy has an Xbox live account and little brother Jimmy also has his own, it would be suicide for MS to suggest the parents need to buy two 'licenses' of a game so they can both play.

That's what needs to be preserved here. If Sony doesn't have this for their digital purchases and you need that functionality, then you can just buy the retail copy.

CrossLOPER:
I think the truth is far darker....
(snip)

Good God that article makes this E3 look like the climax of a spy movie when the bad guy realizes the good guy swapped out the control pad suitcase for a bomb suitcase. This just gets more and more interesting, and I am perfectly ok with that even as a happy 360 owner.

Microsoft set fire to their own house, all Sony has to do is sit back and fan the flames. The Xbone has even pissed off members of the US military! http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130614/OFFDUTY02/306140030/New-Xbox-sin-against-all-service-members-

Realitycrash:

Rainboq:

MichaelMaverick:
People are way more unjustified in applauding this. A year or two after launch, Sony's pulling a 180. Mark my words.

Why would they? If they get the install base that it looks like they're going to get, leaving the policies in place, while focusing on ramping up the PSN marketplace would net them a lot more cash than turning around and screwing over the consumer. It would make no sense for them to do that.

Maybe because people have already bought a PS4 by then and are reluctant to change just because policies change. It wouldn't surprise me if they caved to the pressure, no.

Still, this is worthy of celebration. Kudos, Sony.

Sony 'pulling a 180' is incredibly unlikely unless there are some serious market shifts in the next couple of months. This is because, as things stand now, there is a clear winner in the minds of the majority of gamers. Much like the days of the PS2 vs. the Xbox, Sony is in the driver's seat. Very few game studios could afford to release an Xbox exclusive game simply because a far larger chunk of the market owned a PS2 and didn't own an Xbox so releasing a game for the Xbox and not the PS2 meant that you would get significantly less sales, and hence make significantly less money than you would have if you released a PS2 version of your game.

If things continue as they are, and the PS4 remains the clear victor that it is today, the same will be true of the market. Add the shockingly inflated costs of development of AAA titles into the mix and suddenly you find that those titles literally cannot afford to not release a PS4 version because the reduction in sales means that they may actually lose money on the deal. So what 'pressure' are they going to cave to? If EA says "Hey Sony, put in some built-in DRM and restrict used game sales or we won't release games on your system anymore!" Sony can just shrug it off as the empty threat that it is. They won't be able to AFFORD to not release games for the PS4.

Big_Isaac:
what do you think about Nintendo's more snarky remark "if you're worried about used games sales, make better games"?

Besides the Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS newcomers, people haven't talked much about the Nintendo Direct. Even that quote hasn't gotten very much attention.

I guess I share this apathy towards Nintendo, though the games with Mario in them look good, despite being fancy tip-toes instead of leaps of innovation. I'll probably get a Wii U later this generation after getting a PS4 at or near launch.

Zachary Amaranth:

canadamus_prime:
Yes, how sad it is that Sony just has to say that they'll do things that have been done for years and get lauded for it. Those things should go without saying.

and, at the same time, when the other half of the coin has decided to go balls-out on the restrictions, simply upholding the status quo IS serious business.

Racecarlock:

Plus, no DRM.

No additional DRM. There's a big difference there.

I'd equate this to a Slave Master promising not to use the whips today. Have we become so used to the abuse that not being abused has become cause for celebration?

YEAH YEAH!

Time to get out the mesh tank-tops.

But yes, I do find it somewhat sad that we celebrate Sony doing nothing, but when it's against Microsoft seemingly doing everything wrong, you bet your ass I'll take it.

canadamus_prime:
I'd equate this to a Slave Master promising not to use the whips today. Have we become so used to the abuse that not being abused has become cause for celebration?

No, horrible analogy, try again. Slaves do not get to choose their masters

The most important thing I took away form Sony's E3 conference is apart from everything Jack Tretton said.

To me, it's the simple fact that Sony knew what was happening. That they saw the opportunity to strike the fatal blow to Microsoft and used it. It shows that Sony is reading the news. It means that they know what is happening around them and act accordingly.

Sure, if you're a sceptical person you can see it as nothing more than a little scheme, a publicity stunt designed to win people over. Sony might just be telling us what we want to hear for all we know. But that's kind of the thing. Just the fact that they actually KNOW what we want to hear for a change. That they know just what the fuck they are doing. In an industry lead by a bunch of clueless men in suits who barely know what games are, let alone pay attention to the people who play them, this is kind of a big deal.

Not to mention that when given a choice, I'm always going to go with the company that knows its ass from its elbows.

Big_Isaac:
what do you think about Nintendo's more snarky remark "if you're worried about used games sales, make better games"?

True through and through, if you make a game you can play over and over again and never get old then you are less likely to give the game away, if a player is kept fed in high quality DLC then they will buy high quality DLC. More importantly, if everyone is keeping their copy of a game, there is no used games market because there would be no trade-ins occurring.

Snarky remark in your opinion but true none the less.

Everything regarding the xbox one has just been one massive puzzle box, I've never seen so many different questions, theories and answers regarding a single console before. Microsoft has spun so many webs and have been giving vague answers to questions they think their fans don't like the answer to, before quickly sidestepping and looking the other way when pressed further.

Jim is really one of the best game journalists in the industry, I find I agree with his stance over 90% of the time...AND he's really entertaining to watch.

So yes, thank god for you :)

Norrdicus:

canadamus_prime:
I'd equate this to a Slave Master promising not to use the whips today. Have we become so used to the abuse that not being abused has become cause for celebration?

No, horrible analogy, try again. Slaves do not get to choose their masters

Well closest analogy I could think of.

I pretty much agree with Jim on this one, but I would like to add that when the PS3 was released, it was easy to build a PC with reasonably equal specs for about the same price. But for $399 USD, it is going to be about two full years before you can build a PC to match the PS4's specs, and even then you would still likely have to run Windows.

So, Sony has done right by budget gamers so far. But remember you do not have to pre-order anything right now, you can just wait and see what the future brings before you commit.

To be honest, Microsoft keeps having more and more bad news come out of E3 in regards to their Xbox One that it's becoming like Background noise. There's nothing left of the consumer trust to shred: they basically not only shredded it, they burned it up in a fire pit and made smoke signals with it. To find out they were even running the games on Windows 7 and Nvidia graphics cards instead of on dev kits isn't even surprising anymore, and they likely are going to bait and switch.

All someone needs to do is come out with a commercial Debian distribution that has closed source support like Adobe Creative Suite, out of the box games support, and good driver support. The entirety of Microsofts financial empire would start crumbling down around them.

I think you got half of it Jim. The other half is that Sony announced that they were going to attempt to sell us the product we want to buy, not the product they want us to buy.

The past 7 years have not been great for the AAA video game consumer. From the broken promises of motion controls to the constant battle against consumer rights this has been one of the most difficult periods to be a gaming enthusiast. It has been genuinely difficult to remain enthusiastic about the main industry. We have been trained to know that there is a cloud in every silver lining.

And so Microsoft one again trots out the old lies. They tell us that their new console will be amazing. They don't tell us how or why, they just tell us to "think of all the cool things you could do with all this stuff! And don't worry, we promise not to screw you over even though we are setting up the perfect mechanism to do so!" But I don't care what the Xbox One could do, I want to know what it will do. And I just can't trust that Microsoft wont screw us over as hard as they can as soon as they can because that is what they do. Their track record is not good enough to backup the trust they are asking for.

What Sony did was special because they recognized all these problems and responded to them. They know we do not trust them, so they did not put a system in place that requires our trust. They knew that what we wanted was a simple gaming platform, and that is what they promised.

Sony did not promise us the moon and they did not promise to revolutionize the gaming industry. But lets be honest here: we do not want a gaming revolution, not now. Not after so many false revolutions and attacks on our rights as consumers. What we want now is just to be able to be excited about the next big game.

Maybe someday we will again be able to be excited about the possibilities of the future, but right now what we need is to stop the downward spiral. And that is what Sony promised. And what is more, it is a promise I can believe.

Anyone think Microsoft will backtrack with all this backlash?
Or is it way to late in the game to do that?

Sony wanted to actually sell consoles to consumers. Every move has been calculated to do so, though Microsoft made which moves are necessary dirt-fucking stupidly obvious.

The real thing to see is the fallout when the consoles finally go on the market. I figure some Xbox Ones will be sold, because there is always going to be a contingent for whom the issues that many here have are not issues. However, I expect the market will reveal a very clear choice for PS4 (and even Wii U) over Xbox One, and developers/publishers needing to sell games (hence make money) will be forced to PS4. I expect, in the aftermath, there will be a guillotine erected in the courtyard of Microsoft as King Balmer exacts punishment on the bumbling VPs who were placed in charge of this fiasco. Only time will tell if such expectations prove precognitive. Regardless, for the time being, my money is on the PS4, and possibly a Wii U, but never an Xbox One.

Microsoft thinks to "educate" consumers. However, I think Microsoft will discover, much to its shock and horror, that it will be the consumers who will educate Microsoft on how not to treat paying customers. Mainstream, Triple-A gaming is in serious need of an enema; Microsoft, after all this, is probably as good a place to start as any other. Only better places I could think of would be EA and Ubisoft.

Microsoft has been impatient more than anything else. Many of the analyses of what has happened miss the fact that very soon the great majority of games will be sold online. Not only that, I doubt you can have cloud features and streaming with a game unless you tie it irreversibly to your user account (and say goodbye to sharing and selling it). What Microsoft is forcing through DRM will eventually be accepted by most gamers for convenience.

In fact, if you think of it, the conditions of the Microsoft system (sharing with 10 friends) are probably going to be the most consumer friendly of them all when this happens, o_0

And PC is not an alternative to console DRM, every AAA title is either on Steam or on Origin or GFWL.

Everyone went nuts about the PS4, which I can certainly understand. Any new console is going to look fantastic when compared to the Xbox One (or as I like to call it, the Xbox LOST). Me, I was all "eh" about it. I was a lot more focused on Nintendo's part, but really, saying that the PS4 ISN'T going down the road the Xbox LOST is going down really is a good thing... Because it shows that at least SOME people (who isn't Nintendo, which nobody cares about, apparently) isn't doing someone so stupid and thoughtless and actually CONSIDERING the future of the industry.

Big_Isaac:
what do you think about Nintendo's more snarky remark "if you're worried about used games sales, make better games"?

I don't think it holds true. Not for me at least. I buy nearly all my games from the bargain bin (I play PS3 predominantly). The only games this gen that I bought full price (personally, not as gifts) are Far Cry 3 and (preordered Collector's Edition) Aliens; Colonial marines. I cancelled the latter.

One of the reasons is that it's very common for games to be re-released a few years later with all the DLC for 1/3rd the price of the original game without DLC.

For example, I got GTA 4 with all 3 campaigns for $20 Canadian. It's a difficult decision to buy new when I know that I can get fantastic bargains like that in the not-too-distant future.

EDIT

Sorry, I misread.

It is a bit dismissive of the great games that get overlooked, but I think it was aimed at the generic FPS crowd. If that's the case, I agree. If he's stating it as absolute universally-applicable fact, he's wrong as indicated with my example above.

Top notch, Jim.

I've gone through my standard new console generation check list and have found Microsoft wanting in every category when compared with the competition this time around. I'm surprised since the last generation Microsoft took home most of the categories. But even the exclusives seem to be calling me to Sony and so my money will follow.

I agree Microsoft has been stupid. Their E3 conference was actually pretty good but they'd dug themselves such a hole to start with they still can't see the day light, especially with Sony's attempts to bury them.

What Microsoft are aiming to do is take on Steam with the added bonus of a possibility of being able to trade in a few games, depending on the wimps of the Publisher who has fuck all to do with the actual development of the game. Some of the ideas are solid, but they're executed terribly and any money taken from Gamestop for a second hand sale is guaranteed to go to the executives who did nothing to actually make the game and expect all the reward.

At the moment, I'm likely to get a PS4 at some point while XbOne is sat as a 'maybe' depending on price drops and a change or two in policy (stranger things have happened, amazingly). Besides, the only game that really jumped up and grabbed me for Next Gen systems was The Crew, which I could ultimately take or leave and just get FUEL again instead. Also, Smash Bros remains at the top of my "NEED!!" list.

So what do you reckon Jim, seeing as you're quite happy to do Xbox One vs PS4: How do they stack up to Steam?

Why is it that these executive types always sound like condescending pricks when ever they open their mouths ie Don Mattrick. You would think that you'd have to have social skills to rise through the ranks of a multi national corporation.

Awesome Podtoid reference! Always appreciate those :D

PUT ON YOUR MESH TANK TOPS!

I want to say am very dissented with today's episode, While customers may prefer the PS4 to the Xbox One 3 to 1 , Microsoft prefers the Xbox One to the PS4 1 to 0.

Sincerely

Don Bot

Yeah, I can see your point. But hey, right now it's still a better alternative to the XBOX ONE. As others have said, I do hope Sony keeps their promises.

RandV80:

thanatos388:
While you can still share disc based games you cannot game share and sony will most definitely move in a more digital centered market in the near future.

You mean like the Microsoft's 10 family member thingy?

I don't know about that, if you interpret their system in the most gamer friendly manner popular then you would have a system that does far more damage to the publishers than used games ever could. Microsoft wouldn't give the publishers such a big bone only to take them behind the shed and shoot em.

Fundamentally though, I would say the system their implementing has everything to do with disc based game sharing. Unlike Steam which is more for personal use, the Xbox One will typically sit in the living room and for larger households be a family device. If little Timmy has an Xbox live account and little brother Jimmy also has his own, it would be suicide for MS to suggest the parents need to buy two 'licenses' of a game so they can both play.

That's what needs to be preserved here. If Sony doesn't have this for their digital purchases and you need that functionality, then you can just buy the retail copy.

A little anecdote for you.
My friend has playstation plus and I do not. Mostly because I just haven't gotten around to it, and it's low on my priorities. He came over to my house loaded his profile on my system and downloaded a copy of dungeon defenders to my console so we could play it. After he left I could still play dungeon defenders on my system without logging into his account, or even being logged into the system itself as him. My account can play things his account installed.

Sony kind of has a cut down version of Microsoft's family plan, except their not advertising it as a feature it's just part of the console. It's not as extensive but it works to its own degree.

Wasn't the PS3 basically a more powerful console then the xbox360 but the 3rd party games had never shown that. This was because it would have taken them longer and cost more to make games to fully utilize the power of the PS3 so they just settled on a standard that looked great on both console but the PS3 could have looked better.

I personally believe that when microsoft was saying that it's awesome server cap of 300,000 and its cloud services will not get properly utilized by 3rd party devs because they will not want to spend the extra bit to add on the features. So the really cool stuff the Xbone could possibly do will only be seen on MS exclusive games and if the 360 is an example there wasn't many exclusives outside FPS games and Alan wake.

I'd be looking forward to see how they work it into Dead rising 3 but I don't think I'll get a Xbone its far to multiplayer based I want my game console to cater to singleplayer first then MP but maybe I'm just old fashioned.

Anyone who thinks good Journalism is parroting the talking points for both large corporations is wrong. I get that people can get upset when their favorite journalist has an opinion contrary to their own but journalism is more than just repeating the talking points for both corporations out of the fear of being called biased. Jim is doing his job and is doing a great job of it.

PainInTheAssInternet:

Big_Isaac:
what do you think about Nintendo's more snarky remark "if you're worried about used games sales, make better games"?

I don't think it holds true. Not for me at least. I buy nearly all my games from the bargain bin (I play PS3 predominantly). The only games this gen that I bought full price (personally, not as gifts) are Far Cry 3 and (preordered Collector's Edition) Aliens; Colonial marines. I cancelled the latter.

One of the reasons is that it's very common for games to be re-released a few years later with all the DLC for 1/3rd the price of the original game without DLC.

For example, I got GTA 4 with all 3 campaigns for $20 Canadian. It's a difficult decision to buy new when I know that I can get fantastic bargains like that in the not-too-distant future.

EDIT

Sorry, I misread.

It is a bit dismissive of the great games that get overlooked, but I think it was aimed at the generic FPS crowd. If that's the case, I agree. If he's stating it as absolute universally-applicable fact, he's wrong as indicated with my example above.

yes, Reggie directed that mainly at devs of annual games like CoD and Madden

basically "We here at Nintendo aren't worried about used games because people WANT to keep playing Mario Kart. people WANT to keep playing ... . we don't do annual game updates, so used games aren't an issue for us"
or something along those lines

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