Jimquisition: Xbox One No DRM Emergency Special!

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I reckon MS simply decided to 'shoot for the moon' with a far out DRM policy and if it stuck, they'd be happy, but otherwise they'd retract it all to the extreme and win adoration from the crowd as the company which dared put consumers first. It's like praising a murderer because he decided not to kill you today. Sure, it probably took a lot of fortitude to do go against hard instincts, but he shouldn't be killing people anyway!

I'm ready for my thoughts to take a ride on that wave of opinions!!!

Jim was remarkably naive in this video.
Microsoft and xbox are still massive (insert your favourite insult here)s.
They deserve no consumer respect or money after this frankly juvenile back pedalling.
And worst of all, folks. We have entered an incredibly scary time for gaming. Welcome to gaming a la presidential elections!!! Not that I mind, really. No one is going to care and I'm going to gaming under the radar.

Ta.

nah, you fuck with the consumers once, we will not forget, but I'll keep in mind the old M$ who claimed in E3 "... the result of the launch sale will speak for it self, we are confident..." "we have a offline system, it's called Xbox 360" "We here in M$ thinks that ownership is shifting..." Yeah, We the consumers OWNS YOU, You don't treat us like your bitches; it's the other way around! I guess that Xbone-Eighty maneuver is M$'s acknowledgement of that little fact eh~?

WE will not be denied, we will remember, and we WILL make ourselves known, SUCK IT M$!~ PS4 ALL THE WAY!~ (besides, we've got a better system, with better pricing... what more is there to choose from except Bayonetta2? and that had NOTHING TO DO WITH M$...

So is the mandatory Kinnect still there, spying on us? Cause that would be my only issue with it then, as well as all the other features I don't care for.

Entitled:
Also a great new proof of the truth of the older "why complaining is more effective than boycotts" episode.

For everyone who was moaning about how people should just shut up on online forums and vote with their wallet, well, here is the result of not shutting up.

Those people are like Microsoft, they wouldn't understand. Remember that it should work their way and we should just deal with it, because for some reason they can't ignore other opinions.

Reversing their policy don't mean shit, they could always reverse it again later. Unless it's something binding and enforcible by law. Don't be fooled.

Huh, that was fast. I honestly didn't expect Jim to respond this quickly.

Posted this in a thread earlier, holds relevance here too

I have been loyal to MS for my whole computing life, always had windows, always had Xbox, hell I even defended the Zune. I said no. It still comes with the kinect at $100 which I don't want, you can no longer share games online and the fact that they lied, "you cannot just flip a switch, it's core to the system" and then just flipped the switch is too suspicious for me to trust them. And the whole "Patch 1.1: Re-adds all DRM" is too much of a possibility. The PS4 is simply a more powerful system for ~3/4 of the price.

They just need a balance. They are going from one extreme to the other.

Sell a system with and without the kinect. People without it just can't use the kinect commands. Most cross platform games aren't going to have the kinect commands as they will have to write it in specifically for XB1 versions of the game, so even if they do make a kinect friendly version, you will still be able to play without using kinect commands. I also have no problem pressing a button as opposed to saying "XBOX ON" and random people wont be able to walk into the room and yell "throw grenade, quicksave" and run off.

Make the system HAVE to check in every 24 hours if you want to share your games. Sure, if you don't check in, lock the game from your family list, just don't stop them being played in offline mode on the console they are installed on. Or in other words, no check in to play offline on your console, check in for sharing and "family library" play. Yes, it is that simple.

As for trade ins, the selling disks, no selling digital is how it is now and there is no way around that unless they allow us to package up bought games and allow us to gift them to people. I could see this having the 30 day friends restriction ON DIGITAL COPIES ONLY and I would be fine with it. To stop people installing and then selling the game and still play offline, when installing the game via CD, don't install everything, leave one part that boots the game stay on the disk so to play disk based games, you either a- have to have an online connection, which will boot the game or b- insert the disk and the game will boot off the disk then run from the machine. Having a physical copy of my disk is a small price to pay to be able to play when I visit family without internet connections or when I go away.

These also perfectly represent my feelings.

image

image

Jimothy Sterling:
You mean like major publishers still try to pull on PC all-digital platforms?

Don't pretend companies would magically turn over a new leaf with the Xbox One.

Valve does. EA and Ubi are building their stuff as well, they just can't afford to anger the retailers.
GOG's killing it. The guys at CDPR are making their game, putting it on their own servers and selling it. They don't need a publisher, for this, let alone retailers.
X180's initial policy was destroying disc games, that would've been a big step towards digital only distribution.
Now back at square one.

I didn't know that PS4 was on Fallon as well. That pretty much explains why Microsoft decided to do this. They were counting on uninformed consumers, but that move changed everything.

The funny thing is I don't think people have that much issue with the those specific DRM policies (other than the 24 hour check in) for digital goods. If they had applied all those features strictly to the digital goods yet allowed physical copies to work as they had in the past, people would have strolled willingly into the arms of this new control scheme. After all, more and more digital version of games are being sold all the time.

No its the "we have to take it all and we have to take it right now!" that screwed them.

Tumedus:
The funny thing is I don't think people have that much issue with the those specific DRM policies (other than the 24 hour check in) for digital goods. If they had applied all those features strictly to the digital goods yet allowed physical copies to work as they had in the past, people would have strolled willingly into the arms of this new control scheme. After all, more and more digital version of games are being sold all the time.

No its the "we have to take it all and we have to take it right now!" that screwed them.

aye. steam and co ar a good example for a good vis a vis DRM sheme.

Credossuck:

aye. steam and co ar a good example for a good vis a vis DRM sheme.

What people often forget is that Steam also has an opt-in DRM system. For many titles, for example Europa Universalis III or Crusader Kings 2, it only acts as a content delivery system. After downloading, you can basically copy your files to a different directory and run the game entirely without Steam.

Steam itself should not be confused with DRM - it's a digital content delivery system with the option for DRM.

It's good to know that MS have listened, even if it's with their wallets. I'm still not getting the Xbox One, there is still a good chance they'll gradually bring back all bad patch-by-patch. I'd doubt they'd do it straight but over time they will probably bring all that stuff back, thinking people will have forgotten about it. MS is probably hoping that the user base will just sit back and let it happen, because they've already brought console and won't have much other choice.

Nice evil laugh.

well this is nice, despite that if I'm going to buy a next gen console I'm probably going to get a ps4, mostly because it's cheaper.

But I don't have any plans to buy a next gen console, so really I wonder why I even care.

nevarran:
Valve does. EA and Ubi are building their stuff as well, they just can't afford to anger the retailers.
GOG's killing it. The guys at CDPR are making their game, putting it on their own servers and selling it. They don't need a publisher, for this, let alone retailers.
X180's initial policy was destroying disc games, that would've been a big step towards digital only distribution.
Now back at square one.

I don't think Jim would have a problem with GOG, given its DRM-free policy, so maybe that's unrelated. Having said that, I see what you mean, but the problem with the Xbox one would have been that the DRM was part of the hardware. On PC, you have options, on the Xbox one, you wouldn't have competition between different distribution platforms, it would be either DRM or no games, with just Gamestop-like stores and a single digital one to buy games from. It's the kind of environment that makes it harder to expect drop in prices, sales, and whatnot.

mdqp:
I don't think Jim would have a problem with GOG, given its DRM-free policy, so maybe that's unrelated. Having said that, I see what you mean, but the problem with the Xbox one would have been that the DRM was part of the hardware. On PC, you have options, on the Xbox one, you wouldn't have competition between different distribution platforms, it would be either DRM or no games, with just Gamestop-like stores and a single digital one to buy games from. It's the kind of environment that makes it harder to expect drop in prices, sales, and whatnot.

I see you point about the X180 being closed market. All I'm saying is that it would've pushed people to embrace the digital distribution, make it much more popular than it is now.
And MS would still have Sony's (and partially Nintendo's) competition. Especially now, when their hardware is so similar. They would've competed on prices and features.
And look at Kindle, for example. It's closed system, you buy from Amazon and read on their device. Yet the digital books have lower price than the paper copies.

PatrickXD:
If you don't have an internet connection, you have the option of - no, not the xbox 360 - the PS4. It's there. It's a choice. A safe choice. It's not changing anything. The Xbone? Previously we didn't know if it would be a safe choice. We didn't know if it was what we wanted. It certainly wasn't a rich dark roast. And that's what we want, isn't it? We all want a rich dark roast. We all sing together that we know what we want and what we want is a rich dark roast.

While that is a lovely callback, you're using it, I think, in error. The 'rich dark roast' argument is an argument wherein people SAY they want apparently interesting, classy things, but then opt for the familiar, safer, milder choice. The PS4 is the milder choice. It plays games, and doesn't throw hurdles in front of you. That's the baseline everyone wants. The Xbone was the rich dark roast - it came with all the extras, like the Kinect, and promises of cloud gaming, and being a media centre, all things people say they'd like if their console also did - but when it comes down to it, the more things it does other than gaming, the worse it looks to most of us. And then, they put that rich dark roast in a state of the art coffee cup which disintegrates when you leave the store with it - they say it's so that you don't need to go through the hassle of disposing of it, but really it's so you have to spend more time in their store, or have to deal with getting burned when the coffee spills down your pants.

Moreover, regarding the rest of your argument, the features taken out of the Xbox have nothing to do with cloud games and whatnot. What's been removed is the mandatory 24-hour check in, and the game-sharing nonsense. If a developer makes a game that requires a constant connection to the internet and takes advantage of the cloud (whatever that means), they can still do it. In fact, they can also do it on the PS4, or computers. That was the problem with this policy in the first place - a 24-hour check up has nothing to do with what kind of games your machine is capable of playing.

In summary, while Xbox's promise of cloud gaming might have been a game changer, this won't change that. Either it'll come true, or Microsoft will just have made empty promises.

For my part, Microsoft is now back in contention. They're still far from an equal contender - they'd need to outpace Sony in terms of exclusives that I want if they want an even match - and given Sony's strong record with good exclusives, I don't see that happening.

nevarran:

mdqp:
I don't think Jim would have a problem with GOG, given its DRM-free policy, so maybe that's unrelated. Having said that, I see what you mean, but the problem with the Xbox one would have been that the DRM was part of the hardware. On PC, you have options, on the Xbox one, you wouldn't have competition between different distribution platforms, it would be either DRM or no games, with just Gamestop-like stores and a single digital one to buy games from. It's the kind of environment that makes it harder to expect drop in prices, sales, and whatnot.

I see you point about the X180 being closed market. All I'm saying is that it would've pushed people to embrace the digital distribution, make it much more popular than it is now.
And MS would still have Sony's (and partially Nintendo's) competition. Especially now, when their hardware is so similar. They would've competed on prices and features.
And look at Kindle, for example. It's closed system, you buy from Amazon and read on their device. Yet the digital books have lower price than the paper copies.

But as the kindle is concerned, you can download the kindle app on any device. I have kindle synced up on both my iPad and Samsung phone.

luvd1:
But as the kindle is concerned, you can download the kindle app on any device. I have kindle synced up on both my iPad and Samsung phone.

See, that makes my point even stronger. Given the chance, companies would lower the digital prices. So Amazon is not just selling you books at lower price, because you have to buy their device, they're selling cheaper, because digital goods are replicated virtually for free.

nevarran:
I see you point about the X180 being closed market. All I'm saying is that it would've pushed people to embrace the digital distribution, make it much more popular than it is now.
And MS would still have Sony's (and partially Nintendo's) competition. Especially now, when their hardware is so similar. They would've competed on prices and features.
And look at Kindle, for example. It's closed system, you buy from Amazon and read on their device. Yet the digital books have lower price than the paper copies.

Yeah, but you don't have a single e-book format (not all e-books have DRM), and you can read e-books on all sorts of platforms, while Xbox One games are obviously only for the Xbox One, which means the digital market will almost assuredly be a monopoly (and they would have all had to stay under one big DRM umbrella), handled by Microsoft.

I can't see the future, nor can I know for sure what they'll do with the system, but it's just hard to compare the PC market with the console market, so it's also very difficult to predict prices going down just because digital copies become widespread, or at least, this is how it seems to me.

nevarran:

Jimothy Sterling:
You mean like major publishers still try to pull on PC all-digital platforms?

Don't pretend companies would magically turn over a new leaf with the Xbox One.

Valve does. EA and Ubi are building their stuff as well, they just can't afford to anger the retailers.
GOG's killing it. The guys at CDPR are making their game, putting it on their own servers and selling it. They don't need a publisher, for this, let alone retailers.
X180's initial policy was destroying disc games, that would've been a big step towards digital only distribution.
Now back at square one.

They were trying to take step five before they took steps one, two, three, and four. Consoles need to do a lot more to justify moving toward a near-all digital format. They don't get to suddenly move into it without providing a lot more of what PC provides customers first.

"Maybe it's that I find it hard to forgive the follies and vices of others, or their offenses against me. My good opinion, once lost, is lost forever."

- Mr. Darcy

I am glad they reversed their decision, but like Jim, I will never forget what they tried to do. I will never forget any of the things companies have done, or tried to do, and I will still not be buying an Xbox One. Why? Because shame on me if I do. Knowing they could reverse this decision again, that the system is set up to go this route again at any time I cannot, and will not, in good conscience support a company that even 'tried' to do this. No matter that they reversed their decision, they tried to do this, and I respect that, but I cannot forget. I cannot forget that Microsoft employee after Microsoft employee treated people that thought their old policy was bod like freaks, and some even responded to criticism and question - just questions - with anger and annoyance. This is not the way a company I want to buy from treats critics and customers.

My good opinion, dear Microsoft, is indeed lost forever.

snip

Microsoft does not listen to customers, no matter how many snarky critical videos would have been made, they just don't care. The only language such corporations speak is the business chart one. They did not back from anything after the reveal; E3 only cemented their misguided policies. However, miraculously, after a time that I assume would be enough to gather their firs preorder info, they had a change of heart. Let noone get fooled, this is the only kind of argument they understand. There probably is a lot of research done on how preorders translate into later purchases, it surely allows companies to do some accurate estimates. I can only guess that prepurchases that they saw now must have made them shit a metaphorical brick.

Microsoft did not reverse all the bad things it's doing. It merely tries to do damage control and then signify it with their massive PR money. It is still a console for which you have to pay 100$ more in order to get a device that will be a quite useless gimmick at best, and an easily hackable spying device at best. With the whole PRISM scandal, I would be extra careful about what devices such as this are capable of learning about me. It still is a 100$ more expensive piece of hardware with inferior specs.

Jimothy Sterling:
They were trying to take step five before they took steps one, two, three, and four. Consoles need to do a lot more to justify moving toward a near-all digital format. They don't get to suddenly move into it without providing a lot more of what PC provides customers first.

Oh, I agree. MS are a bunch of arrogant morons, and they are to blame for all this shit-storm.
Had they have been able to communicate their vision and plans with us, in a more understandable and consumer-friendly manner, even take a step back, if necessary, the change, I think needs to happen, would have.

Yuuki:

(to so many who asked, yes it's a microphone on the right guy's face)
image

That interveiw was amazing for just how defensive Microsoft were over simple aspects of their console. It seems they KNEW they were actively attacking consumers and just didn't care. They were hoping they could cover it up. He dealt with almost none of Joes (and everyone elses) concerns, he wasn't able to answer basic questions without deflecting. It was a PR massacre. Joe isn't exactly Jeremy Paxman and they still looked like Richard Nixon after Watergate.

I'm just flabbergasted at how badly they've done every aspect of this.

There's nothing like the smell of victory in the morning..

Great news, now you can all go buy it on release date without guilt. ^^

Sadly the internet has a very short memory. Ironic.

Oh they've reviewed their DRM policy and other shitty stuff, ok I'll get one now...

NO! That kind of attitude is not good. M$ should be burned for even suggesting all this to begin with, they deserve to have a failed system and exit the console market. Buying something because they reversed their shitty policy does not excuse the behaviour especially when it's been so easy to do a 180 on it. If you think it will stop here you're laughing. They will keep pushing and pushing with new and insidious ways to skrew the consumer over. If ever there was a time to familiarise yourself with consumer rights with regards to shop and online purchases now is the time.

Jim is right, don't ever forget this and be vigilant.

PatrickXD:
I just thought I'd point out something that really irks me about this whole Xbone situation, as I feel it represents the gaming industry and culture as a whole.
People complain, day in and day out, about the lack of change in games. The repetition of the exact same systems and stories from past generations of game. And yet, when Microsoft tried something new with a console, everyone cried 'What's wrong with the way things are? Can't everything just be the same? Everything is fine here, we don't need change!'.
Food for thought.

No change is better than a bad change. Say every day, a man comes up and kicks you in the shins. You'd want change right? If that change were to be the man coming back with steel toe-caps, you'd think that perhaps this isn't the change you wanted.

I'm less disinterested in getting an XB1 now, but I'm still not planning to get one.

If nothing else, I've learned to never buy/install anything from Microsoft that's v1.0.

Give the XB1 a couple years of evolution, and then we'll see.

Techno Squidgy:
No change is better than a bad change. Say every day, a man comes up and kicks you in the shins. You'd want change right? If that change were to be the man coming back with steel toe-caps, you'd think that perhaps this isn't the change you wanted.

Whereas Sony has kicked customers in the shins for years and years, and then suddenly said that they're going to stop.

That promised change makes them awesome?

I must say I'm surprised that this happened - but now the question is what'll happen next

I'm guessing that M$ will enable some kind of online registration of your Xbone games to enable the 'steam-like' feature for your disc-bought games, adding that doing so will lock it to your account, but then allow you to download it from other xbone's that you log on to

...and if you ever want to sell it, you just de-register the game online to 'free up' the disc so you can go and sell it

This is perfectly doable and enables both systems.

Xbox One drops its shitty DRM policies and the fastest Jimquisition on record?!?

Great, they brought two componenets up to par with what Sony was already doing. Now they just need to give us anything that is actually better than the alternative. Then they need to give us ENOUGH things that are better than the alternative because right now I'm still stinging from the slap they gave would-be consumers.

They saw all this as the future and simply tried to make it happen. Same with the Win8 GUI (that I happen to personally like) where they forced it instead of making it optional when they could have. Dumb.

This still does not fix:

1. The console being weaker.
2. The console being more expensive.
3. The whole kinect debacle that watches you while you touch yourself any time the Xbone is on and is required for use.
4. The console likely requiring cloud computing to compete with the ps4 in a few years (because the ps4 is estimated to be around 50% more powerful and Sony also has cloud processing capabilities of their own). This will effectively require always on and be a logistics nightmare if they plan to double or triple the computing power while getting all that data across the network instantly to NOT lag your single player experience.
5. Their 2 games/month is still ending in December 2013. Meaning that their membership service is more expensive and less valuable.
6. The fact that they purposefully treated the consumer like crap. Literally telling reporters that consumers were too dumb to pay attention to details. I couldn't believe they actually said that their data showed that. They actually gave us insight into the negative way they view us as mindless money bags. There's nothing they can do to this short of admitting fault and basically groveling and even that may not do the trick here. If they do stuff like this when they think they have leverage and only undo it when it's clear they don't, then we can't have faith in them as a company in the future. Sure, future consoles should be backwards compatible if they exist, but will we want the next Xbox? Not if they stick to their guns then. The ps3 may have done some weird stuff, but that was cost and difficulty for developers. Not an outright war on consumers' rights and wants. If the message at Microsoft is that the consumer is always dumb and always wrong, then I can't justify giving them more money than I have to.

Comparing Microsoft with the PS4 still results in the PS4 having all positives or equivalent scores while giving Microsoft all negatives or equivalent scores. It's quite staggering that they dropped the ball this much and even such a bold move only brings them up to par.

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