Jimquisition: Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

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scott91575:
Now I understand why Jim sounds so frustrated.

It's not that DRM and no used games are part of the things he listed. It's the fact the plusses allow them to add in some negatives and still have it a net overall gain for many users vs. other platforms. It may not be ok for you, and that is fine. Yet, obviously, there are many people who are willing to put up with the DRM and lack of used games in order to take advantage of what the PC can offer. Those same plusses are not available on consoles, so they cannot add in a negative like DRM and eliminate used game. They don't have that luxury.

I have stated this over and over again in this thread. I have no idea why you people cannot fathom that. If DRM destroys any experience for you, then sure, PC gaming not for you. Yet PC gaming offers other plusses that offset that minus for many people. Consoles do not have those added plusses and therefore have less leeway in adding restrictive measures. The consoles simply don't have the added plusses to offset any additional negative features. In order for the consoles to add a negative feature they needed to offset that feature with a positive even though neither is a requirement for the other. From what we saw, there simply were not enough added positives for the consumer to accept a negative addition.

But it's all still a smokescreen. Those advantages are great and all, but this was supposed to be a video about why we accept DRM on PCs and it managed to talk about everything about PC gaming but DRM. Doesn't matter how many sheets we throw over it, the elephant in the room is still there. "LOOK AT THE SHINY SHINY!" is not an argument for why DRM is okay.

I get the point, honestly I do; jingle enough keys at people and they'll eventually look away from the Dig'Em statue, and the XBone didn't offer enough keys; but I think we all know that there's probably no amount of keys you could attach to the 180 that would be enough for a hell of a lot of people. All the anti-DRM arguments that people put forward for the consoles, particularly the hallowed first-sale doctrine (disclaimer: I'm British, so that likely isn't an issue for me - there's probably some different shit going on over here), are still valid for the PC and still not being addressed. There are still questions about why you can't move on used software, for example, and "because Steam! And GoG!" is not an answer to any of those questions.

captcha: let it be. NO.

Reeve:

Dragonbums:

Reeve:

Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.

That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.

You see where I'm getting at here?

The WiiU is backward compatible with the Wii, so I don't know what he'd talking about when he says none of the systems are backward compatible anymore. Also, I bought Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath last December and I still can't play it nor can I find a patch for it. :\ Plus, I could probably think of several PC games that just won't work on modern systems due to them not being backward compatible. And as OSs change, more games will have this problem. Sure GOG is releasing old ones for modern systems, but they can't get to every game and there are sure to be some that just fall through the cracks of time.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that backward-compatibility, or rather the preservation of older games is still a really big issue facing the medium, just like how film had the same problem when the first films ever made weren't preserved and were lost in time. Although I must say I'm really glad with how Nintendo is at least trying to preserve their older titles, if only for the present. Sony has done very little in this regard and I constantly fear for the day my old PS2 discs just stop working.

Kinitawowi:

scott91575:
Now I understand why Jim sounds so frustrated.

It's not that DRM and no used games are part of the things he listed. It's the fact the plusses allow them to add in some negatives and still have it a net overall gain for many users vs. other platforms. It may not be ok for you, and that is fine. Yet, obviously, there are many people who are willing to put up with the DRM and lack of used games in order to take advantage of what the PC can offer. Those same plusses are not available on consoles, so they cannot add in a negative like DRM and eliminate used game. They don't have that luxury.

I have stated this over and over again in this thread. I have no idea why you people cannot fathom that. If DRM destroys any experience for you, then sure, PC gaming not for you. Yet PC gaming offers other plusses that offset that minus for many people. Consoles do not have those added plusses and therefore have less leeway in adding restrictive measures. The consoles simply don't have the added plusses to offset any additional negative features. In order for the consoles to add a negative feature they needed to offset that feature with a positive even though neither is a requirement for the other. From what we saw, there simply were not enough added positives for the consumer to accept a negative addition.

But it's all still a smokescreen. Those advantages are great and all, but this was supposed to be a video about why we accept DRM on PCs and it managed to talk about everything about PC gaming but DRM. Doesn't matter how many sheets we throw over it, the elephant in the room is still there. "LOOK AT THE SHINY SHINY!" is not an argument for why DRM is okay.

I get the point, honestly I do; jingle enough keys at people and they'll eventually look away from the Dig'Em statue, and the XBone didn't offer enough keys; but I think we all know that there's probably no amount of keys you could attach to the 180 that would be enough for a hell of a lot of people. All the anti-DRM arguments that people put forward for the consoles, particularly the hallowed first-sale doctrine (disclaimer: I'm British, so that likely isn't an issue for me - there's probably some different shit going on over here), are still valid for the PC and still not being addressed. There are still questions about why you can't move on used software, for example, and "because Steam! And GoG!" is not an answer to any of those questions.

captcha: let it be. NO.

I believe the title of the video is why "PC Gets Away with it" not "Why Do PC gamers Tolerate DRM"

Dragonbums:

Reeve:

Dragonbums:

That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

You see where I'm getting at here?
I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.

I know. However most people don't want to have to buy their games digitally because it apparently violates their petty sense of ownership of the game. Whereas people don't buy cars, TVs, monitors, heating, cooling etc for a reason as ridiculous as that.

Reeve:

Dragonbums:

Reeve:

You see where I'm getting at here?
I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.

I know. However most people don't want to have to buy their games digitally because it apparently violates their petty sense of ownership of the game. Whereas people don't buy cars, TVs, monitors, heating, cooling etc for a reason as ridiculous as that.

What do you mean by that?
People BUY cars for transportation and OWNERSHIP. Nobody would purchase a car that would never really belong to them.
People BUY televisions because besides entertainment they want to OWN a television.

Dragonbums:

Reeve:

Dragonbums:

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.

I know. However most people don't want to have to buy their games digitally because it apparently violates their petty sense of ownership of the game. Whereas people don't buy cars, TVs, monitors, heating, cooling etc for a reason as ridiculous as that.

What do you mean by that?
People BUY cars for transportation and OWNERSHIP. Nobody would purchase a car that would never really belong to them.
People BUY televisions because besides entertainment they want to OWN a television.

It's not the primary reason though, is it? People buy cars for transport. People buy TVs to watch - First and foremost.
A lot of gamers, on the other hand, when given the choice between getting their games digitally or physically, will go for the physical copy ONLY for the arbitrary reason that they want it to feel like they "own" it. And every time the planet takes another hit.

SoDaRa:
The WiiU is actually cheaper than $400 at its most basic set and does have games that the PC will probably never have. So the WiiU does have that going for it.

Saying a Nintendo console has games that are not available on PC is like saying your brothers wife won't have sex with you.

Dragonbums:

What do you mean by that?
People BUY cars for transportation and OWNERSHIP. Nobody would purchase a car that would never really belong to them.
People BUY televisions because besides entertainment they want to OWN a television.

People lease and rent cars and TVs all the time.

I would argue that nobody buys those things to own them, they buy them to get practical use out of them. Why would you buy a car just to own it? You buy a car for the function it provides - transportation. Only the most vain and superficial people would buy a car just to say that they own it.

hermes200:

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that..

I bought and downloaded SS2 the first day it popped up on GoG.
It works perfectly fine; better than when it was new actually, since it hasn't crashed.

Dragonbums:

Reeve:

Dragonbums:

That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.

You see where I'm getting at here?

You've got to watch out though, thats slipping into Nirvana Fallacy territory. Just because it won't solve the problem completely by itself does not make the choice to take a single more environmentally friendly option any less positive or helpful.

See also: "Why bother giving money to HoH? There will still be homeless people." and "Why quit drinking soda? It's not like that one change will help you lose any real weight."

SoDaRa:
The WiiU is backward compatible with the Wii, so I don't know what he'd talking about when he says none of the systems are backward compatible anymore. Also, I bought Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath last December and I still can't play it nor can I find a patch for it. :\ Plus, I could probably think of several PC games that just won't work on modern systems due to them not being backward compatible. And as OSs change, more games will have this problem. Sure GOG is releasing old ones for modern systems, but they can't get to every game and there are sure to be some that just fall through the cracks of time.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that backward-compatibility, or rather the preservation of older games is still a really big issue facing the medium, just like how film had the same problem when the first films ever made weren't preserved and were lost in time. Although I must say I'm really glad with how Nintendo is at least trying to preserve their older titles, if only for the present. Sony has done very little in this regard and I constantly fear for the day my old PS2 discs just stop working.

Yours is a very strange argument. Nintendo is one entity, the PC is not, you can't compare their policies to each other. The PC is a millions times more backwards compatible than any of the consoles simply because of how adaptable it is; you can also play a boatload of console games through emulation that is how adaptable a PC is. Sure you can play your Wii games on your Wii-U but you can play games from the late eighties on your PC and there are pages and pages of text in treads all across the internet devoted to getting old games to work on newer configurations.

Im so glad he spelled it out to people. I left consoles behind soon after the late PS1/N64 era. And have never looked back, back then playing online games with ppl on my 33.6k modem was amazing to me. Consoles once had to plug and play on its side and simple to pick up n play but not anymore. And Pc is just far better in the long run.

fact is the cost of a console and a couple of games = the cost of a good pc gaming rig provided you build it yourself which is not very hard at all. Games are cheaper have a longer life span with added community made stuff etc, Steam sales are always amazing. And on top of that no months xbox/psn fee if you got the net thats it.

honestly its not console bashing if its all true. You console gaming brothers and sisters your being ripped off.

I recently came across a thread wherein I read a bit of concerning news. Apparently, M$ reserves the right, and intends, to revert the DRM policies to the crappy practices later on (the quoted patch was 1.2, I believe).

I really hope this is more conspiracy theory nonsense, but I have been afraid of just this very outcome. I expect the uproar would be unprecedented, but what's to keep XBONE from doing this once the preorders/initial sales are in?

Personally, I am assuming that the previous DRM-laden policy will be for digital games only (like on demand or XBLA), if at all. The point is moot, in my case, since I intend to get a PS4 first anyways, and will likely hold off on next gen (relying on my PC in the interim) for at least a year.

I agree completely with everything brought up in this video.

However, I must also point out that you are forgetting one thing: The PC used game market was dead (relative to the console market anyway) well before digital distribution took off.

Remember the PC game section of your local Gamestop or equivalent 10-ish years ago? No? Well, they did keep that one tiny shelf hidden in the back as well as they could....

Game returns on Steam are pretty easy if you have a valid reason for the return. I bought Defender's Quest during the sale today, and it straight up WILL NOT run on my monitor for some reason I can't figure out. I sent a report to Steam asking if I could get a refund on the game due to being completely unable to get it to work past the title screen. An hour later the game vanished from my library and my Steam Wallet had been refunded the $5 I spent.

Kinitawowi:

But it's all still a smokescreen. Those advantages are great and all, but this was supposed to be a video about why we accept DRM on PCs and it managed to talk about everything about PC gaming but DRM. Doesn't matter how many sheets we throw over it, the elephant in the room is still there. "LOOK AT THE SHINY SHINY!" is not an argument for why DRM is okay.

I get the point, honestly I do; jingle enough keys at people and they'll eventually look away from the Dig'Em statue, and the XBone didn't offer enough keys; but I think we all know that there's probably no amount of keys you could attach to the 180 that would be enough for a hell of a lot of people. All the anti-DRM arguments that people put forward for the consoles, particularly the hallowed first-sale doctrine (disclaimer: I'm British, so that likely isn't an issue for me - there's probably some different shit going on over here), are still valid for the PC and still not being addressed. There are still questions about why you can't move on used software, for example, and "because Steam! And GoG!" is not an answer to any of those questions.

captcha: let it be. NO.

It's not a smokescreen at all, and he addresses it head on several times. I'm not sure how you're missing it at this point.

Yes, PCs have (some) DRM. Yes, DRM sucks. No one is attempting to make the argument that DRM is "okay" for consumers in and of itself. But PC gaming has ALL of these other positives that make DRM more tolerable, whereas consoles have very few of them. It's not a "shiny shiny", it's a cost/benefit analysis, that for most, including Jim, comes up on the positive side. He's arguing that MS is attempting to introduce all of the negatives and few of the positives.

That, combined with the less-obtrusive nature of the DRM on PCs compared to what MS proposed, is "Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It".

BBQSoda:
I agree completely with everything brought up in this video.

However, I must also point out that you are forgetting one thing: The PC used game market was dead (relative to the console market anyway) well before digital distribution took off.

Remember the PC game section of your local Gamestop or equivalent 10-ish years ago? No? Well, they did keep that one tiny shelf hidden in the back as well as they could....

I can't really speak for Gamestop 10ish years ago, but I know my local Best Buy used to have 2+ isles of PC games 10ish years ago. It was bigger than any current console shelf space (of course the PS2 was the biggest area since they dominated consoles at the time).

Jennacide:
Game returns on Steam are pretty easy if you have a valid reason for the return. I bought Defender's Quest during the sale today, and it straight up WILL NOT run on my monitor for some reason I can't figure out. I sent a report to Steam asking if I could get a refund on the game due to being completely unable to get it to work past the title screen. An hour later the game vanished from my library and my Steam Wallet had been refunded the $5 I spent.

Ooooh that's a shame, its a fun game!

The reason PC gets away with it is piracy. It is so insanely rampant on PC games, if they didn't control it there would be no games, and piracy is one of the reasons we don't see more games on PCs. I was a long, long time PC gamer. Now that I am older, I enjoy reclining in a soft, fancy chair in front of my home theater and not hunching over a keyboard. Console gaming is more comfortable. The reasons consoles wanted DRM (and Sony did too, they just pulled a little PR coup), is that the used game market cuts into AAA title profits.

BaronVH:
The reason PC gets away with it is piracy. It is so insanely rampant on PC games, if they didn't control it there would be no games, and piracy is one of the reasons we don't see more games on PCs. I was a long, long time PC gamer. Now that I am older, I enjoy reclining in a soft, fancy chair in front of my home theater and not hunching over a keyboard. Console gaming is more comfortable. The reasons consoles wanted DRM (and Sony did too, they just pulled a little PR coup), is that the used game market cuts into AAA title profits.

That logic is pretty flawed considering DRM doesn't stop piracy.

BTW...I lounge in a comfortable chair in front of a big tv while PC gaming. You are doing it wrong.

scott91575:
I can't really speak for Gamestop 10ish years ago, but I know my local Best Buy used to have 2+ isles of PC games 10ish years ago. It was bigger than any current console shelf space (of course the PS2 was the biggest area since they dominated consoles at the time).

Were they new or used games? I remember seeing some respectable shelf space at various stores for new PC games, but I had to really hunt for some used ones.

BBQSoda:

scott91575:
I can't really speak for Gamestop 10ish years ago, but I know my local Best Buy used to have 2+ isles of PC games 10ish years ago. It was bigger than any current console shelf space (of course the PS2 was the biggest area since they dominated consoles at the time).

Were they new or used games? I remember seeing some respectable shelf space at various stores for new PC games, but I had to really hunt for some used ones.

My bad, I thought you shifted to why digital distribution took off after making a point about used games (guess I read it too fast). Yeah, used PC games were never big, ever. In the early days people used to just make bootleg copies like people would do with CD's and tapes. It was incredibly easy (as long as you had a manual or a copy of a manual you were good to go most of the time). I don't even recall Babbage's ever doing used PC games even when over half their store was PC/Mac games. Then that whole internet thing came along and people looking for cheap games just pirated them over the internet. Hey, just like music again.

So yeah, you are right. Used PC games were never much of a market (although I have sold older PC games to Amazon, so there was a small market even in recent years).

the antithesis:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.

So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.

Far more up-to-date and powerful build for $500 from the same guy:

You're a hypocrite Jim Sterling, and this is the last time I will watch one of your videos.

Because if you actually gave a shit about console gaming and if you actually hold Steam and its ilk with the reverence that you suggest then you would be arguing for the console experience to improve, not to fucking stay the same.

If Microsoft is introducing new steam-like DRM into its console, then argue for the rest of the console experience to be improved to a steam like quality. Argue for better indie games, better prices, better everything.

But all people can do is bitch and complain so this next generation will be the same shit as the last one, 60 dollar games with slightly better graphics.

Congratulations. Your irrational fear has helped to further stagnate what is already a stagnant culture.

Because personally, I like to have a little FAITH in people, in companies, to improve the experience. It's easy to be a naysayer and to bitch and complain for views, but it's hard to actually push for positive change and to keep pushing for it. If Microsoft's plans were not good enough for people to buy the console, then push for them to improve the experience to a point where the plans become irrelevant as opposed to simply doing the unimaginative push for them to go back to status quo.

Instead of making excuses for PC DRM that prevents resell and is dependent on servers being around years from now when you want to play again, we should be making our voices heard against PC DRM too.

I find it astonishing Sterling had to make this video to ...not educate people who don't understand the difference but people who instead are insisting marking write ups are facts, that somehow in the insanity that was the X-180's DRM policy there was positive light because it was "similar to steam".

Whoever defends the X-180 old DRM policies and suggests it's the same as Steam/Origin/Uplay/whatatever else has never used these services and doesn't understand how it works and why it's accepted.

Why would anyone defend DRM being implemented? I ...just can't wrap my head around it. I mean Sony has some form of DRM with their devices, and it manages to be better than what the X180 was and what the WiiU has currently.

Buy a SNES game on your WiiU? You can play it on your WiiU...Then if you want to play it on something else, pay the overpriced title on another device.

Buy a PSOne game on your PS3? Play it on your PS3, PSP, PSV, install it on all of them, go hog wild if you want. Transfer save games between them, no sign ins just register the device. Works preeeeeeeetty well.

I've been saying that one of the major advantages of consoles over the years was the plug in and play aspect. It wasn't something I thought about when growing up, but nowadays, it's sad to have seemingly been lost. Every game system from the PS2 and earlier did not require updates or patches. That was a strength. I really hope console gaming returns to that root. Otherwise, one of the biggest advantages over PC will have been lost.

It's really annoying to have to wait for my game to download, update the system, update the game, and the require an online connection. On a console...

canadamus_prime:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.

That's something I really hope we get with the PS4, now. Sony seems to have learned a lot from this last generation. So, hopefully, this is something that will be a thing we can enjoy once more. Sit, down, plug in the console, and play a game.

So hopefully less updates to the system. And supposedly, we'll be able to play even while downloading games, so maybe that will translate into playing games even when downloading other things as well. Hopefully.

LaochEire:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by €20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.

You get taxed by the EU if you use steam for some reason. They don't like steam and are willing to tax the hell of what you buy from them.

Yeah, I don't get why anyone would tax internet purchases either.

Some people try to get past the taxes by having an American sell them for cheap, but steam is legally bound to ban them from the service for tax dodging. A serious crime that can drag Valve into an EU court.

Akalabeth:
You're a hypocrite Jim Sterling, and this is the last time I will watch one of your videos.

Because if you actually gave a shit about console gaming and if you actually hold Steam and its ilk with the reverence that you suggest then you would be arguing for the console experience to improve, not to fucking stay the same.

If Microsoft is introducing new steam-like DRM into its console, then argue for the rest of the console experience to be improved to a steam like quality. Argue for better indie games, better prices, better everything.

But all people can do is bitch and complain so this next generation will be the same shit as the last one, 60 dollar games with slightly better graphics.

Congratulations. Your irrational fear has helped to further stagnate what is already a stagnant culture.

Because personally, I like to have a little FAITH in people, in companies, to improve the experience. It's easy to be a naysayer and to bitch and complain for views, but it's hard to actually push for positive change and to keep pushing for it. If Microsoft's plans were not good enough for people to buy the console, then push for them to improve the experience to a point where the plans become irrelevant as opposed to simply doing the unimaginative push for them to go back to status quo.

You are allowed to have as much faith as you want but the reason stuff like this scares people is because companies have already proven that they CAN NOT be trusted with these things besides only about three things in Microsoft's "Future of gaming" would have actually pushed the industry forward the rest would have sent it to the dark ages.

RhombusHatesYou:

Zachary Amaranth:
I mean, I like GOG, but it shouldn't be a method to excuse the fact that we have a monopolistic platform on PC as well.

Exactly. GOG shouldn't be used as an excuse for Steam, it should used as a large hammer to beat Valve around the head with.

I like that line of thinking. TO ARMS!

targren:

Machine Man 1992:

Holythirteen:
Console gamers are running out of excuses to not go PC.

You mean beisdes prohibitive cost?

You can build a middling gaming-PC, on par with console experience, for the same or less than the cost of an XBone.

Or the fact that some of us have an extensive console library already?

Irrelevant. Whether you build a gaming PC or buy the next gen of consoles, you won't be able to play those without the old console you already own.

Or the unspoken guarantee that a game put in a console will work, every time?

Unspoken, and not particularly true.

All that said, I have to disagree with Jim on this one. I know he's more forgiving of PC DRM, but the fact is that Steam is just as bad as Origin in that your only choices are to agree to whatever they might feel like jamming into the TOS, or your library is forfeit (Origin is more obnoxious about this so far, but Steam's done it too). But for some reason he glossed over one of the big arguments against the XBone: anyone with a bad/no internet connection is screwed. Now that you get titles like DX:HR and Borderlands 2 coming with steam even on the physical disc (there are many more examples, those are just the ones I can think of that I wanted but passed on) has those people just as screwed.

My history with PC gaming has not been a nice one, let me tell you.

Yuuki:

the antithesis:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.

So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.

Far more up-to-date and powerful build for $500 from the same guy:

Lemme know when you've got a setup for under $350.

Yep I've always been a PC first console second guy simply because of the freedoms and options I've always had on PC. Most importantly the pricing. Their are literally 100s of games I've bought on pc for less than a quarter of their price on console when the pc version is the better one. Absolute madness.

I was under the impression there was no used game market for PCs because it was all too easy to just buy a game, copy it, then turn it back in, making it so retailers didn't even want to engage in it. Kind of the same reason return policies at major retailers are fairly strict about opened software. Is it just as easy to buy a 360 or PS3 game, copy it, then turn it in at Gamestop?

Actually, that doesn't make sense. Gamestop would still be getting their money, and probably at a faster rate too. I dunno.

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