The Big Picture: With Great Power

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DVS BSTrD:
Umm okay not sure what that on this week.

I think this is a slow burn thing. This has really been building up for quite some time.

rembrandtqeinstein:
Looks like Bob's annual voter registration drive for the democratic party is well underway. Note how he proudly emphasized the word "progressive". You could just hear him puffing out his feathers on that one.

Here is one small response to this mess.

1. Someone can use gay and fag in a negative way without hating homosexuals. There is a whole episode of southpark about it.
2. The reason women are generally unwelcome in predominantly male venues is because the presence of women require that men change their behavior. Either the men want to get laid thus stress out over presenting the "right" image
[1]. Or they stress out over saying something wrong that could bring about an expensive sexual harassment charge/lawsuit. Just look at donglegate as an example. Men having a private conversion at a mostly male conference lost their jobs because a woman heard them, was "offended", and determined that her being offended justified her in ratting them out.
3. people who expect others to change because they are "offended" but not harmed need to harden the fuck up, sticks and stones and all that
For reference click the first link http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22offended%22+steve+hughes

So much this, I don't like women in my online games because it's just like being in a public place, It's like you always have to watch your tongue. If I have a good rape joke I can't say that around a woman because they will probably complain to the admins I will get my ass banned in a heartbeat but I can say it around guys because 99% of the time they will either find it funny or just not care. I mean look at all the times comedians have gotten sued or bad press over a joke, all of those hecklers that sue them are women, male hecklers just act belligerent and drunk and get thrown. Women being in my game and actively showing everyone that they are a woman changes the environment, I don't like being restrained on the internet the one last place in the world where I can get on my soap box and say the most racist, offensive despicable stuff without repercussion. If that's sexist then I love sexism because I wouldn't have it any other way.

[1] Note that men who think that how they act around women determines whether or not they get laid are sadly in need of an education.

The-Bas:

"User received a warning for this post."

Jebus kwaist the moderators are horrible on this website.

It was low content. You can't just post a picture without any addition to the discussion.

Axolotl:

Jennacide:
We deserved a better voice for the issues of sexual objectification of women in games and the over-use of certain tropes in games, while commenting on why it has become that way and when it's sometimes acceptable.

Well it doesn't really matter if you "deserved" someone better, Anita is the only one so far willing to invest the time and money so for that she's the face of feminism in video games. You don't have to like it but you pretty much need to accept that it's just the way things are.

No we don't. We don't need to accept anything because they "are". If so, change will never come. We can fight, win over their mind one by one. By logic and well made argument. So you can see why it's sad that Sarkeesian, a real straw feminist in her own right, is the "face of feminism" in video games.

Good grief. What was the point of this? Can't people just enjoy a video game, comic book, movie, board game, D&D, etc? Yes. Yes, they can. But there's no need to tie any of those to politics. Eh. Good luck with your ridiculous and strange crusade Bob.

rembrandtqeinstein:
Looks like Bob's annual voter registration drive for the democratic party is well underway. Note how he proudly emphasized the word "progressive". You could just hear him puffing out his feathers on that one.

Reeve:
Weirdest Big Picture so far. It started out as a history lesson on geek culture then turned into yet another american liberal rant against the patriarchy (that's popular to do at the moment) and then finished by preaching some kind of left liberal geek ideology. O_o

Ok, I'm just curious, but maybe one of you two can answer me.

When the fuck did "Don't be an asshole" and "Consider other people" become exclusively liberal positions as opposed to generally good advice?

Goliath100:

No we don't. We don't need to accept anything because they "are". If so, change will never come. We can fight, win over their mind one by one. By logic and well made argument. So you can see why it's sad that Sarkeesian, a real straw feminist in her own right, is the "face of feminism" in video games.

Nah, using logic against radicals has never worked.

Wow...Thank you internet. You are trying to prove to the world the every negative stereotype we have is not just true, but that we are proud of it. This has to be the most depressing comment list I have ever seen...

Sovereignty:
I really hate how all the "white knights" are advocating for these special treatments of the target demographic they feel is persecuted.

Equality isn't treating a girl nicer than you would a guy on Xbox live. It's treating her the SAME way you'd treat everyone else.

The internet has ALWAYS been a cesspool. You're free to express opinions society finds taboo without any repercussion. Say something the 'community' doesn't like and you can just leave it and find another one. I'm so sick of this bullshit. You don't want equality amongst everyone. You want special treatment.

So...because it was always a cesspool, we should be proud of it? We should be proud that online gaming is full of misogynistic, racist, homophobic garbage? The fact that we are trying to get rid of this is a bad thing? Is really asking people to think before they open their mouths special treatment? To show common decency? To realize that other people are PEOPLE? I literally cannot comprehend your thinking. Maybe I'm too naive, but I thought that the Cross Assault guy was wrong. That mean-spirited name calling WASN'T part of our culture and if it was, SHOULDN'T be. But here I'm seeing that it is something we should be proud of?!? And when anyone wants people to not to such a thing is "White Knighting?" "Giving Special Treatment?"

rembrandtqeinstein:
Looks like Bob's annual voter registration drive for the democratic party is well underway. Note how he proudly emphasized the word "progressive". You could just hear him puffing out his feathers on that one.

Here is one small response to this mess.

1. Someone can use gay and fag in a negative way without hating homosexuals. There is a whole episode of southpark about it.
2. The reason women are generally unwelcome in predominantly male venues is because the presence of women require that men change their behavior. Either the men want to get laid thus stress out over presenting the "right" image
[1]. Or they stress out over saying something wrong that could bring about an expensive sexual harassment charge/lawsuit. Just look at donglegate as an example. Men having a private conversion at a mostly male conference lost their jobs because a woman heard them, was "offended", and determined that her being offended justified her in ratting them out.
3. people who expect others to change because they are "offended" but not harmed need to harden the fuck up, sticks and stones and all that
For reference click the first link http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22offended%22+steve+hughes

1. Yes, someone can. Someone can use those words without hating homosexuals. However, it must also be said that words have consequences. Saying terms like fag and gay in such hateful manner can and will be taken in the same manner one says N***** and C*****.
2. Okay, so that is a good excuse for their behavior? The fact that they are afraid of what they might say might offend women? That speaks to a bigger social problem.
3. The reason people ask people to watch what they say is because of history. Stick and stones may break bones, but words can show underlining hatreds. Just look at America during the civil rights movement when words BECAME sticks and stones. Watch how watching a black person hang became like a family gathering. Watch the casual misogyny many senators make when restricting women's rights. The thing with words is, if you say it enough times, you start to believe its true, and that can take humanity to truly dark places.

[1] Note that men who think that how they act around women determines whether or not they get laid are sadly in need of an education.

I agree with this statement Bob.

Also, people who use the term "White Knight" as a negative descriptor for people with enlightened views on gender should get off the keyboard and either get an education or get a job more suited for their fetal alcohol syndrome effected brains like sweeping the floor.

Zor

I'm confused. I always thought it was the job of the impowered to suppress others. Also ever since humanity decided to stay in one place it's been tradition to step on the people below you as you are stepped from above. I thought that was breed into us.

And yes, this is flame bait. Truthful bait but still.

xaszatm:

1. Yes, someone can. Someone can use those words without hating homosexuals. However, it must also be said that words have consequences. Saying terms like fag and gay in such hateful manner can and will be taken in the same manner one says N***** and C*****.
2. Okay, so that is a good excuse for their behavior? The fact that they are afraid of what they might say might offend women? That speaks to a bigger social problem.
3. The reason people ask people to watch what they say is because of history. Stick and stones may break bones, but words can show underlining hatreds. Just look at America during the civil rights movement when words BECAME sticks and stones. Watch how watching a black person hang became like a family gathering. Watch the casual misogyny many senators make when restricting women's rights. The thing with words is, if you say it enough times, you start to believe its true, and that can take humanity to truly dark places.

Words like 'Nigger' and (I have no clue what the other one is) are only offensive when people perceive them as offensive, Doug Stanhope does a great bit which basically boils down to "You're going to teach people that certain noises you can make with your mouth are horrific and just the worse thing you can do? How fucking weak are you?". To put it bluntly, I like the cock and it sickens me that people will campaign and get defensive and offended when someone says "That's so gay", it's pathetic. In a truly free society with true free speech you can say whatever you like and offend nobody, that is a utopia, 'Free speech' today is a mockery. You're top of the food chain and you let a word or some hick fuck's stupid meaningless opinion offend your equally meaningless feelings?

I have nothing to add to your second point apart from this, there is sexism on both sides, the topic has been done to death and the only way out is just adopt a free for all mentality, each to their own. You aren't going to fix women getting offended or males acting like dicks.

All that horror and genocide and murder in the past is, in the past. It happened and most of the time most of the people who persecuted it are dead. As a new generation why don't we learn to laugh at the atrocities that have happened and get over such stupid mundane bullshit like 'bad words'. It's stupid.

image

Why can't we all just get along? I have never understood all the BS that surrounds the geek culture, I've always striven to rise above it. Show people stuff about it and enlighten them, so they too can enjoy new things. Stop being elitist and trying to shove out those that you deem "do not fit in with the group" like people do.

Slow clap, building to standing ovation.

Goliath100:

Axolotl:

Jennacide:
We deserved a better voice for the issues of sexual objectification of women in games and the over-use of certain tropes in games, while commenting on why it has become that way and when it's sometimes acceptable.

Well it doesn't really matter if you "deserved" someone better, Anita is the only one so far willing to invest the time and money so for that she's the face of feminism in video games. You don't have to like it but you pretty much need to accept that it's just the way things are.

No we don't. We don't need to accept anything because they "are". If so, change will never come. We can fight, win over their mind one by one. By logic and well made argument. So you can see why it's sad that Sarkeesian, a real straw feminist in her own right, is the "face of feminism" in video games.

You certainly could fight. But you won't will? You'll just bitch and whine and moan about how the prominent voices in the gamer culture aren't saying what you wish they were saying.

Or perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps you're running your own kick-starter for a more reasonable feminist critique of the current state gaming.

Subconsciously, I at least think if a person looks like they have the choice to have lots of sex, they probably aren't a nerd. Is that fair? No. But neither is being born attractive. At least let the nerds have something.

Monxeroth:

Like bob says: Sexism, Racism and other type of toxic behaviour is one of those things we have to take a stand against now that we hold the talking pillow (for anyone who gets that ref, check me up on steam for a free copy of bioshock infinite).

1. Was that a Breaking Bad reference?

2. Is that offer serious or am I being punk'd again.

OT: Good episode today.

Although I get a bad feeling that there are people that just roll their eyes now whenever there is mention of something negative within "geek culture". :/

DerangedHobo:

So much this, I don't like women in my online games because it's just like being in a public place...

Because you are?

Eh, what can I say? Power corrupts. The first and hardest step is to beware of the corruption yourself and try to combat it.

teebeeohh:
would bob have used wounded knee as an example without bioshock infinite?

Ayn Rand says 'no', but consciousness is a philosophical concept and therefor inherently subject to personal beliefs.

Machine Man 1992:
Those "homophobic, sexist, trolls" you rail against are just that-- trolls. They aren't going away, ever, no matter how much mainstreaming is done.

So man the fuck up and deal with it.

That is a terrible reason not to combat homophobia and sexism. Simply not being able to entirely eradicate a problem doesn't mean that you shouldn't try. Otherwise we might as well give up on trying to police criminals because 'oh well, there's always going to be another murderer anyway'. No, you try to diminish their numbers as much as possible. Looking the other way isn't 'manning up'; in fact, it's the exact opposite of manning up: it's cowardice. There's no logical or moral reason not to oppose discrimination.

Dead Century:
Can't people just enjoy a video game, comic book, movie, board game, D&D, etc? Yes. Yes, they can.

Sure they can. You know what'd make it easier? If we didn't have thousands or millions of people harassing people like hateful little man-children. This would seem especially poignant considering the concept of pointing out that nerd culture feels unfairly maligned themselves.

It's not a political message. And speaking of....

Mr. Omega:

Ok, I'm just curious, but maybe one of you two can answer me.

When the fuck did "Don't be an asshole" and "Consider other people" become exclusively liberal positions as opposed to generally good advice?

Have you seen conservative campaigning lately? "don't be a dick" is pretty much the antithesis of modern American conservatism.

When? Well, when did Fox start their branding campaign? Mid-nineties?

Accusations of anything that disagrees with your being political are the cornerstone of said empire.

xaszatm:
Wow...Thank you internet. You are trying to prove to the world the every negative stereotype we have is not just true, but that we are proud of it. This has to be the most depressing comment list I have ever seen...

The internet rushes to both deny that there's an issue and to display a belligerent attitude that demonstrates it. Must be Tuesday.

Yeah speak for yourself Bob. It's still not accepted over here in Britain and it is nowhere near cool.

jmarquiso:

DerangedHobo:

So much this, I don't like women in my online games because it's just like being in a public place...

Because you are?

A public place, I.e. 'the real world' were general social rules apply where I can't make dead baby jokes without looking like a sociopath and being beaten with sticks, those 'public places'.

The-Bas:

"User received a warning for this post."

Jebus kwaist the moderators are horrible on this website.

It violates two of the rules of the site. I don't get why that makes the moderators "horrible." They are enforcing rules we all agreed to when we signed up.

Zombie_Moogle:

Renegade-pizza:
In connection to the Tropes vs Women reference, I don't take Alisia Sarkeesian seriously.

Watch her episode, then Facts vs Women and you'll see why.

While Thunderf00t's videos made rational counterpoints to Sarkeesian's videos, and that's a great start, we shouldn't forget the maelstrom of troll fire that arose after she announced her kickstarter

The side of the gaming community driven by compassion & perspective is ever growing, but there is still work to be done

Movie Bob, excellent video

After seeing Tropes vs Women, I really wish that the passion had been thrown towards showing "Hey! Look at this woman can't make a good argument! Don't give her your money!" rather than just death and rape threats.

DerangedHobo:

A public place, I.e. 'the real world' were general social rules apply where I can't make dead baby jokes without looking like a sociopath and being beaten with sticks, those 'public places'.

Oddly enough, you've no guarantee to that even without women present. Quelle dommage.

I would say that conflating the gamer community and greater geekdom is a pretty bad mistake. Online venues such as forums aren't nests of hatred and various -isms because of geeks; they're venues of hatred and shittiness because they're accessible to everyone, not just geeks. Some geeks and nerds are awful racists, sexists, etc. This I admit. But when every frathouse in the country has between one and three Xboxes, a large number of people use a gaming console as a babysitter, and the crowd at the latest showing of Star Trek has more popped collars than not...well, perhaps it's time to entertain the idea that equating most traditional mainstays of geekdom to actual geeks needs to be rethought.

DerangedHobo:

jmarquiso:

DerangedHobo:

So much this, I don't like women in my online games because it's just like being in a public place...

Because you are?

A public place, I.e. 'the real world' were general social rules apply where I can't make dead baby jokes without looking like a sociopath and being beaten with sticks, those 'public places'.

The day you get beaten with sticks over the internet is the day I think we have a few more problems. That's the thing though - you're responsible for hat you say WHEREVER YOU SAY IT. That's the other side of Freedom of Speech. It isn't a matter of political correctness, it's a matter of accepting that other people exist in the spaces you visit and will treat you accordingly.

Zachary Amaranth:

Mr. Omega:

Ok, I'm just curious, but maybe one of you two can answer me.

When the fuck did "Don't be an asshole" and "Consider other people" become exclusively liberal positions as opposed to generally good advice?

Have you seen conservative campaigning lately? "don't be a dick" is pretty much the antithesis of modern American conservatism.

When? Well, when did Fox start their branding campaign? Mid-nineties?

Accusations of anything that disagrees with your being political are the cornerstone of said empire.

Oh believe me, I follow politics closely enough to know this has been the message for a while. But I just try to have a little more faith in my fellow man that this is just the fringe reacting. A vocal minority.

That being said, the more time passes, the more I begin to wonder just how "fringe" it really is. The reaction to this video, combined with a couple other troubling threads I've seen here regarding politics, certainly isn't helping.

More OT: I thought Bob was going a little to far this week. Then I read the comments, and that certainly showed why this kind of video was necessary.

Pretty awful that this still needs to be said, but it does.

Mr. Omega:

That being said, the more time passes, the more I begin to wonder just how "fringe" it really is. The reaction to this video, combined with a couple other troubling threads I've seen here regarding politics, certainly isn't helping.

More OT: I thought Bob was going a little to far this week. Then I read the comments, and that certainly showed why this kind of video was necessary.

Unfortunately, some of the reactions aren't fringe because...well, they're mainstream. The same mainstream that plundered geek culture while kicking it every chance they got. Geekdom isn't mainstream- it's components are, like online gaming.

Here's an idea: listen to Fox News or it's leftist equivalent, and see where the overlap is next time you listen to the idiots on Xbox Live as they pour racism into your game.

This isn't a geek issue, it's an everyone issue.

As Tommy Lee Jones said in MIB: A person is smart and rational; people are stupid and irrational.

The rise of the internet and it's anonymity do nothing more than give society the opportunity to be the morons they have always been; nerds are just more eloquent about it.

klaynexas3:
I can say that we should work on toxicity as a community, but using Anita as an example of unwelcome is a bad example. While she does get sexist comments hurled at her by trolls and the like, there are genuine reasons not to like her, for one that she does take a stance basically saying that any given moment where a women might be shown in any sort of danger is automatically sexist, even if men are in the same said danger, and acts like that that one moment defines that woman and that nothing else she does has any merit.

Except she hasn't actually said that and that's not her stance. What she actually says:

Anita:
When I say Violence Against Women I'm primarily referring to images of women being victimized or when violence is specifically linked to a character's gender or sexuality. Female characters who happen to be involved in violent or combat situations on relatively equal footing with their opponents are typically be exempt them from this category because they are usually not framed as victims.

Look, I understand that not everyone is going to agree with her points or like what she says, but you aren't doing any favors to your argument when you completely misrepresent her points. It just gives an impression that either you haven't actually watched her videos or that you haven't understood what she says.

MooShoo:
Instead what we get are feminists coming in and demanding that we change for THEM and we should adapt to THEIR needs, not even the needs of real girl gamers (they too have been around since the beginning) because from what I read they don't see the problems all these crazy feminists are talking about either.

So 'real girl gamers' cannot be feminists? You do know that there are plenty of female gamers on the Escapist who also identify as feminists?

Jennacide:
I just want to say that while a lot of the outcry directed at Anita Sarkissian announcing her videos was sexist, mysognist nonsense, that too often it's glared over that thinking individuals like myself also did not want her doing it. Not because I don't believe there is something that could be said, but because I don't want Anita being the one to do it. There are many other notable feminists in the games sector that are well spoken, and will attempt to have an actual dialogue with people. Anita is the worst kind of militant feminist, the kind that make it so when I tell people I'm a feminist, they assume that means I burn my bra, hate pornography with a passion, and don't bathe.

I really don't understand the argument that 'she shouldn't be the one to do it'. Why is that a problem? Other feminists are completely free to start their own projects and do their own game critiques. (And using the word 'militant' seems a bit of an overkill in this context.)

Damn right.

No matter the defensiveness and excuses, there is still plenty of bigotry in the community that we need to stamp out, I for one will not suffer bigotry in silence.

No, Bob, "we" didn't "win". "We" are still getting kicked around while others enjoy small parts of geek culture since 2008

You think the average schmuck is suddenly going to be interested in some 35 year old in a hulk t-shirt's conversation about their vast knowledge of backstory in the comics just because Batman movies are good? No, they'd still smirk and call him a dork. To be a nerd and a geek is still a bad thing, no real one likes to be identified as such outside their circles of friends.

Today people talk like nerds and geeks enthusiastically threw themselves into comic or roleplaying sub-culture and shunned typical social interaction, when most everyone in traditionally nerdy interests had some sort of social or personal damage recieved in school.

In many cases they were bullied, verbally harassed or beaten up occassionaly over the course of years, so yes, Bob, they were by definition victimized and have every right to complain when people come into the subjects they ran to for escapism for so long, and expect them to "just deal with it and change to suit my opinions" or begin telling people who already have emotional damage how awful they are if not doing what they're told.

In my case I went to a religious school when I started realizing I liked dudes as much as the girls and started to withdraw from social interaction to keep from being found out as "a bad person". When I became more awkward because of it, was bullied and got into video games, table-top, and magic cards to escape it as a kid.

That sort of thing changes people and some cases are more severe than others, but the fact is you can't just tell people who went through this stuff to "Just stop it" or "What happened to you doesn't matter". You can't flip a switch and turn off years of your life that affected you so much. It took me years after of highschool to get my problems with religion and sexuality worked out and function more as a normal person.

The mainstream is bad for nich sub-genres too. The mainstreaming of video games is what has turned the industry into a big pile of generic corporate shit.

The mainstream is still giving geeks an nerds their lumps as well, but differently since being a nerd is "cool"; The new folks moving in on these sub-cultures are weirded out by these "losers" with social issues and start telling them how their favorite past times have to change to suit people who aren't nearly as passionate about them. The moment anyone complianed they started being called "Misogynists", "losers", "women-haters", hell... practically rapists, and the "Nice guy" label started being used against them to poke more fun at their continued lack of ability with women. This had led to pathetic goveling of nerds on forums "B-but I don't want to be a 'Nice Guy'!", because attacking a nerd's love-life has always been part of it.

image

Monxeroth:
You guys are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact that mainstream now wants to exploit the everliving crap out of you and it wont stop until you as a consumer stop throwing money at them and stop watching big bang theory for example.

Until then, have fun being part of the collectivist conform that you didnt sign up to but now everyone tries to cater to you, hooray :U

Awfully hipster outlook of you dude... also not really relevant to the core discussion that we need to do some housecleaning of the douchier members of our culture.

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