Jimquisition: Gamer Guys

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Phasmal:
How is someone supposed to learn if they are shunned for not knowing enough?

Well, they would not be banned or anything, they could always learn more and try again next year.

TreuloseTomate:
I'm a bit lost here. Are "gamer girls" really such an issue? I've actually never met any of these caricature gamer girlz that some people seem to be complaining about. What year is this?

They exist, are relatively rare, but draw attention disproportionate to their raw numbers because that's largely why they're there, for attention.

The whole rigmarole about them basically amounted to a tiny handful proclaiming that they absolutely do not and cannot exist, an even smaller handful believing that anyone who accepts that they do exist is claiming that all girls/women interested in games are part of them (IOW that women can't genuinely be interested in games, which is utterly absurd), and the larger swarm of fairly predictable white knights and gender ideologues on both sides arguing regardless of evidence. Oh and a couple of madmen who belonged to the Codename 47 School of Subcultural Membership, where donning an appropriate item of clothing makes you part of a subcultural group.

Really, it's a lot of stink over the couple percent of girl gamers who are Gamer Girls(tm).

Azaraxzealot:
Once again, the problem is not the fact that fake gamer PEOPLE are annoying, it is the fact that they DO actually ruin our culture. Remember what happened to Metal in the 80s when it got all popular with the poseurs? Yeah, exactly. The influx of poseurs in gamer culture IS actually ruining the culture itself because their numbers allow them to sway the industry to their shallow opinions (such as "MAKE MORE DUDEBRO SHOOTERS!"). This is what happened to Metal (leaving all the good Metal to be made in Europe and to struggle in the underground in America) and this is what is happening to geek culture now.

So you are COMPLETELY missing the point when you think it's about us just being butthurt for some arbitrary reason that I don't know what you think it is. The point is that these poseurs ARE hurting the culture, and once they exhaust themselves and get bored of it, they'll leave, leaving it devastated beyond recovery and putting us back in the underground with them making fun of us.

History shows this is what happens when an underground culture becomes popular then gets kicked out of the popular scene.

The whole "subculture gets popular, then gets kicked out of it's own scene, then something else becomes popular and what's left implodes because the new guys left for the new 'in' thing and the old guard was driven away" thing tends to follow a pretty consistent pattern. We're what, about halfway through the process now?

Terramax:

You know what, buddy? I think you hit the nail on the head. You see, why can't people like you make an article on the escapist, rather than people such as Jim, from time to time. Some of the stuff you write hits the point so hard, it fucking HURTS!

I fairly recently saw one of the people who frequently post in these threads suggest that sexism in gaming is a "dirty secret" of the community and industry. I disagree with that presumption -- instead I think that the real "dirty secret" of "geeky" subcultures is that ultimately they were built by, for, and around people who are passionate about and delve deep into escapism, and the sorts of people who do that are rarely undamaged beforehand.

Silentpony:
Obviously this is a spin on the fake gamer girl malarkey going about. I honestly have a good example of a fake nerd girl. There was a girl in my bio-class last semester who after talking with her for a few days admitted she was a hard-core Star Wars fan, loved the movies, read the books and played all the games. I was genuinely impressed. But then! She says that she and her roommate were going to get a pet ferret. Jokingly I asked if she was going to name it 'Boba Ferret" and she looked at me, dead eyed and asked if that was from something. I said "No, its a spin on Boba Fett's name." "Whose Boba Fett?" And then she moved on, saying they were going to name the little ferret 'Whiskers'.

Now I don't know her reasoning behind making up the Star Wars bit, and I honestly don't care. It was painfully obvious to me she just made up the 'I'm a Star Wars fan' and thats enough for me. Are all fans/gamer girls like this? Hell no. But really, please stop pretending there aren't two catagories. There are and please not men can fall under it too. If it makes you feel better, we can label them 'True Fans/Gamers' and 'Hipster Fans/Gamers'. See? Gender neutral and implies that one group is a fan because they truly enjoy it, while another is doing so ironically or whatever hispters do

It sounds like the ferret conversation happened later; maybe she didn't make the connection that you were making a Star Wars reference.

Or maybe she just never learned Boba Fett's name, because it's said only once in the original movies, in a line by Han that's easy to miss. It's possible that she has read a bunch of the books, but they either all took place before Boba Fett was born, or don't reference him in any way. I've read a few of the Rogue Squadron books, and I'm pretty sure he's never mentioned. Maybe if you'd mentioned Jango Fett she would have got the reference, especially since he's mentioned by name much more often, both in the prequels and in certain areas of the expanded universe.

Schadrach:

I fairly recently saw one of the people who frequently post in these threads suggest that sexism in gaming is a "dirty secret" of the community and industry. I disagree with that presumption -- instead I think that the real "dirty secret" of "geeky" subcultures is that ultimately they were built by, for, and around people who are passionate about and delve deep into escapism, and the sorts of people who do that are rarely undamaged beforehand.

Actually, I said it USED to be a dirty secret (if you were indeed referring to me, I remember making a post like that recently- if you dont mean me disregard this). It used to be something we all knew went on but didn't really talk about it because we expected everyone to just put up and shut up, which is no longer the case.

You can call people damaged all you like, doesn't get them a `get out of acting like a human being`-free card.
And why why why do people keep talking about female gamers like we just showed up yesterday???

You know, this was kind of super depressing, made me realize this is no place for people like me.
For all this talk of inclusion and embracing a larger demographic I have never felt more alienated from it.
Like you found a better group of people to populate the culture with and now the old residents are just trash to be shunned and discarded.
This whole video was just a giant " fuck you, you don't belong and you're not wanted."

magicmonkeybars:
You know, this was kind of super depressing, made me realize this is no place for people like me.
For all this talk of inclusion and embracing a larger demographic I have never felt more alienated from it.
Like you found a better group of people to populate the culture with and now the old residents are just trash to be shunned and discarded.
This whole video was just a giant " fuck you, you don't belong and you're not wanted."

I gotta ask what kind of person are you that you feel excluded?

Rebel_Raven:

magicmonkeybars:
You know, this was kind of super depressing, made me realize this is no place for people like me.
For all this talk of inclusion and embracing a larger demographic I have never felt more alienated from it.
Like you found a better group of people to populate the culture with and now the old residents are just trash to be shunned and discarded.
This whole video was just a giant " fuck you, you don't belong and you're not wanted."

I gotta ask what kind of person are you that you feel excluded?

The kind that doesn't matter.

Jimothy Sterling:
Gamer Guys

Jimquisition travels to another time and another place, examining a world taken over by gamer guys and their testosterone-addled inanity. Something must be done!

Watch Video

Beware alternate universes Jimothy, miniature Fantasy Wilhem Dafoe may betray you there.

I have a new plan for becoming famous on the Internet!
Record myself on webcam, playing games while wearing a tight-fitted T-shirt using my supple smooth body and elegant nipples to sell myself on sex-appeal! It's gonna be great :)~

wait this was not about ms sticking another load of feet in their mouth. wtf.

confused.

What did I just watch? That made absolutely no sense to me...

magicmonkeybars:

Rebel_Raven:

magicmonkeybars:
You know, this was kind of super depressing, made me realize this is no place for people like me.
For all this talk of inclusion and embracing a larger demographic I have never felt more alienated from it.
Like you found a better group of people to populate the culture with and now the old residents are just trash to be shunned and discarded.
This whole video was just a giant " fuck you, you don't belong and you're not wanted."

I gotta ask what kind of person are you that you feel excluded?

The kind that doesn't matter.

Alright, stay vague, then. I'm just trying not to assume anything here.

As far as I gather Jim Sterling is hating on the haters in this vid. The people that gatekeep, and persecute, and divide people. The sort of gamer that excludes others vehemently, even though they aren't directly affected by newcomers, "posers," more casual fans, and/or people who are fans, but not the same way the dividers are.
The kind of people that hate those who want to be included in the hobby, yet aren't into the hobby to the same degree, or same ways.
The sort of person that actively tries to scare off newcomers for what ever reason.
The sort of person who won't accept a person they don't know at face value, and must test them, and harass them, and lable them.

A person can't really be accepted by the masses if they aren't willing to accept the masses they shun.

Jim flipped the genders to show males what it's like to be a woman in gaming.

That's what I took from the video. I dunno if you fit the description, or not.

I'm at a bit of a loss here. See, I liked your Idealization of Men episode, because it correctly communicated the one itch I couldn't get off of me about the non-stop comments about games objectifying women. I couldn't communicate it though, because I couldn't understand what I wanted to communicate. To me, all those men you call "ideal" sort of felt objectified to me before the episode, because I quite frankly do not connect with any of those male figures. I can't really connect with any character, to be honest; I'm a pessimist and even though I do recognize my outstanding and amazing set of privileges I was born into, I can't help but feel the flipside of everyone BEGGING people to recognize it: some of us already do, and in fact, do not enjoy being a part of them. I'm not saying I hate it, I'm saying I hate the bad parts of privilege, because it sets in stone expectations of you. It means you can't for the life of anything complain even once, because you're privileged. It always communicates to me like the people that tell depressed people "You have no right to be depressed, other people have it worse than you"! Well, fuck you then. You have no right to be happy because someone else is happier than you.

That was getting off topic, but what I meant was that your episode has allowed me to understand what it was about the industry that I disliked. And what we have to correct. This just seems to squash the surface issues by being sarcastic, not by trying to view it in depth. And that might work for some, but not for me. It's not that I am one of those that spout fake gamer girl whenever there is a girl that likes games. It's more of an inability to understand females. Zelda, even though so many tout that it is a sexist terrible series, has been the one consistent thing I've found most females feel attracted to. I like Anouma's idea of making Zelda playable. YAY! Go ahead, expand the series, tilt it on it's head, change it! Zelda needs that, it's kind of stagnated in a formula at this point. But why do you have to go pick on the past titles so much? Can you not just enjoy the damned games for what they are? Adventure? Games are not a babysitter; if you expect them to educate your kids, you will have a shitty time with your kids, so the excuse of it's bad for kids is not very valid.

I've a feeling I'm about to be attacked by someone on this forum, it happens a lot. But can someone please help me understand this issue? I just feel lost honestly. I feel like I can't understand it because it's just not something I can relate to; I'm not a girl, and I'm a privileged straight white male. I don't think I've ever been manipulated by females, although maybe I have and just blocked it. I'm just really confused TT__TT

SOMEONE HELP ME UNDERSTAND!!!

Gindil:
What did I just watch? That made absolutely no sense to me...

You're not the only one, totally blew over my head...

IkeGreil29:
I'm at a bit of a loss here. See, I liked your Idealization of Men episode, because it correctly communicated the one itch I couldn't get off of me about the non-stop comments about games objectifying women. I couldn't communicate it though, because I couldn't understand what I wanted to communicate. To me, all those men you call "ideal" sort of felt objectified to me before the episode, because I quite frankly do not connect with any of those male figures. I can't really connect with any character, to be honest; I'm a pessimist and even though I do recognize my outstanding and amazing set of privileges I was born into, I can't help but feel the flipside of everyone BEGGING people to recognize it: some of us already do, and in fact, do not enjoy being a part of them. I'm not saying I hate it, I'm saying I hate the bad parts of privilege, because it sets in stone expectations of you. It means you can't for the life of anything complain even once, because you're privileged. It always communicates to me like the people that tell depressed people "You have no right to be depressed, other people have it worse than you"! Well, fuck you then. You have no right to be happy because someone else is happier than you.

That was getting off topic, but what I meant was that your episode has allowed me to understand what it was about the industry that I disliked. And what we have to correct. This just seems to squash the surface issues by being sarcastic, not by trying to view it in depth. And that might work for some, but not for me. It's not that I am one of those that spout fake gamer girl whenever there is a girl that likes games. It's more of an inability to understand females. Zelda, even though so many tout that it is a sexist terrible series, has been the one consistent thing I've found most females feel attracted to. I like Anouma's idea of making Zelda playable. YAY! Go ahead, expand the series, tilt it on it's head, change it! Zelda needs that, it's kind of stagnated in a formula at this point. But why do you have to go pick on the past titles so much? Can you not just enjoy the damned games for what they are? Adventure? Games are not a babysitter; if you expect them to educate your kids, you will have a shitty time with your kids, so the excuse of it's bad for kids is not very valid.

I've a feeling I'm about to be attacked by someone on this forum, it happens a lot. But can someone please help me understand this issue? I just feel lost honestly. I feel like I can't understand it because it's just not something I can relate to; I'm not a girl, and I'm a privileged straight white male. I don't think I've ever been manipulated by females, although maybe I have and just blocked it. I'm just really confused TT__TT

SOMEONE HELP ME UNDERSTAND!!!

Do keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you when I asy this.
I recommend you watch earlier jimquisition Vids. He talks about the "fake gamer girl" issue, and, on multiple occassions, the sexism in the game industry, like "The Creepy Cull of Female Protagonists."

I kinda broke down the vid in a recent post in this thread.
Adding a bit to that, Imagine an event where you've been excluded. Now multiply that many times over, and add up how much it'd suck. That's generally what it's like to be on the recieving end of the gatekeepers.

About the Zelda issue, it's met an immense amount of resistance and hatred as illustrated in the comments of this article:
http://www.destructoid.com/gamers-urge-nintendo-for-a-playable-zelda-257454.phtml

I can't fully fathom some of the reasons people have against the idea of a playable Zelda short of the fear she'll get the "Princess Peach" treatment and get sent on a mission for a happy making vibe-sceptor using wild moodswings to make her journey, or treated like Samus in The Other M, which aughta speak for itself.

Honestly, every time we buy something advertised by a person deemed attractive, we've been manipulated, or we acted like the people who were manipulated. Either way, mission accomplished in that they got your money.

Phasmal:
Ok, all of you who believe the fake gamer girl thing, ask yourself this, and actually think about it.

Are these fake women MORE of a problem than female members of our community getting a nasty grilling for no reason other than their gender? Are they more of an issue than the hostility thrown at anyone female for speaking about games without sitting the written exam?

I really freaking doubt it.

What's more is the silliness of it all. We're being exclusive here? Us? Nerds who have had a history of being excluded and singled out from the "cool" kids groups are trying to exclude people who are interested in our culture and new to it just because they don't have a long and established history in it? We should have been so lucky in school to have had people pretending to be like us. To be fair, I was a nerd and a jock (president of the chess club and wrestler/football), but my friends were certainly nerds and I saw how they were treated. But man, I can't imagine any one of them excluding someone for wanting to hang out with them or pretending to like the same things they like just to fit in.

It's ridiculous. As I said earlier. Maybe this is similar to the person who farted blaming someone else first so that they don't get blamed themselves. Maybe it's the fake nerds trying to call other people fake early so that their friends know that they're true super-nerds.

Man... how that word, nerd, has changed in my lifetime.

Rebel_Raven:

IkeGreil29:
snip

Do keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you when I asy this.
I recommend you watch earlier jimquisition Vids. He talks about the "fake gamer girl" issue, and, on multiple occassions, the sexism in the game industry, like "The Creepy Cull of Female Protagonists."

I kinda broke down the vid in a recent post in this thread.
Adding a bit to that, Imagine an event where you've been excluded. Now multiply that many times over, and add up how much it'd suck. That's generally what it's like to be on the recieving end of the gatekeepers.

About the Zelda issue, it's met an immense amount of resistance and hatred as illustrated in the comments of this article:
http://www.destructoid.com/gamers-urge-nintendo-for-a-playable-zelda-257454.phtml

I can't fully fathom some of the reasons people have against the idea of a playable Zelda short of the fear she'll get the "Princess Peach" treatment and get sent on a mission for a happy making vibe-sceptor using wild moodswings to make her journey, or treated like Samus in The Other M, which aughta speak for itself.

Honestly, every time we buy something advertised by a person deemed attractive, we've been manipulated, or we acted like the people who were manipulated. Either way, mission accomplished in that they got your money.

Thank you, that actually sort of helps. I still feel lost though; what do gamer girls want?

The best example I got off this discussion was how I constantly feel uncomfortable around metalheads for maybe not coming across as intense enough. Most of my friends aren't, I've only got one good friend who is, but it always makes me so nervous I won't come across as the real deal. I guess it's kind of like that, the metal community can be rather cutthroat at times. If it's like that, then I don't really see the issue of games becoming more accepted by all areas of society. In fact, I feel like it needs to happen so that they're not seen as chastity belts and all the other negative associations society has with gaming.

Something just dawned on me... could it be that certain male gamers are dubious of gamer girls because they have been shunned romantically before by them, particularly because when in a relationship you're not expected to be absorbed by games 24/7? Maybe, just maybe?

Rebel_Raven:
snip
The sort of gamer that excludes others vehemently, even though they aren't directly affected by newcomers,
snip

Well, you have to monitor your own people. If you don't, you're gonna end up with an equivalent of the TvTropes forum. So, in a way, they are affected.

*deleted*

rasputin0009:

Sir Thomas Sean Connery:
snip

WOOSH!!

Right over your head. By about 10,000 feet. At around Mach 1 speeds.

Excellent points made.

Very constructive.

10/10 post.

IkeGreil29:

Rebel_Raven:

IkeGreil29:
snip

Do keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you when I asy this.
I recommend you watch earlier jimquisition Vids. He talks about the "fake gamer girl" issue, and, on multiple occassions, the sexism in the game industry, like "The Creepy Cull of Female Protagonists."

I kinda broke down the vid in a recent post in this thread.
Adding a bit to that, Imagine an event where you've been excluded. Now multiply that many times over, and add up how much it'd suck. That's generally what it's like to be on the recieving end of the gatekeepers.

About the Zelda issue, it's met an immense amount of resistance and hatred as illustrated in the comments of this article:
http://www.destructoid.com/gamers-urge-nintendo-for-a-playable-zelda-257454.phtml

I can't fully fathom some of the reasons people have against the idea of a playable Zelda short of the fear she'll get the "Princess Peach" treatment and get sent on a mission for a happy making vibe-sceptor using wild moodswings to make her journey, or treated like Samus in The Other M, which aughta speak for itself.

Honestly, every time we buy something advertised by a person deemed attractive, we've been manipulated, or we acted like the people who were manipulated. Either way, mission accomplished in that they got your money.

Thank you, that actually sort of helps. I still feel lost though; what do gamer girls want?

The best example I got off this discussion was how I constantly feel uncomfortable around metalheads for maybe not coming across as intense enough. Most of my friends aren't, I've only got one good friend who is, but it always makes me so nervous I won't come across as the real deal. I guess it's kind of like that, the metal community can be rather cutthroat at times. If it's like that, then I don't really see the issue of games becoming more accepted by all areas of society. In fact, I feel like it needs to happen so that they're not seen as chastity belts and all the other negative associations society has with gaming.

Something just dawned on me... could it be that certain male gamers are dubious of gamer girls because they have been shunned romantically before by them, particularly because when in a relationship you're not expected to be absorbed by games 24/7? Maybe, just maybe?

What do gamer girls want? I cannot speak for them all, but largely the same thing gamer guys want, and often get as far as I'm concerned. Gamer Girls and gamer guys are two sides of the same gamer coin. Gamer Girls are people just like gamer guys. They're all as diverse as the other.

Your example about metalheads works well.

Personally I don't see the problem about games being widely accepted either, but that doesn't change the fact that people are actively being excluded, and there's people that support that exclusion which does cause problems. To say the least they aren't helping the image of the gamer improve.

A part of the negative associations with being a gamer won't go away, though. That part is the angry belligerent gamer. They use other gamers to vent on, and troll. They do this because there's not much that can be done in retalliation.v It's a sad fact of things that won't change until humanity does.

It's one thing to be dubious about the women that shunned them. It's another matter entirely to be dubious of women one just met, haven't met, and/or never will meet. That's just discriminating based on gender, to put it gently.
One one hand reactions like that are human nature to not be fond of what caused hurt. I get that.
On the other, one can always strive to rise above hating the many for the crimes of the few, or at least act like they have.

Miroluck:

Rebel_Raven:
snip
The sort of gamer that excludes others vehemently, even though they aren't directly affected by newcomers,
snip

Well, you have to monitor your own people. If you don't, you're gonna end up with an equivalent of the TvTropes forum. So, in a way, they are affected.

Not directly, still.
And if you're going to monitor your own people, you should be prepared to police your own people. If you're gate keeping, but not taking account the trouble makers you already let in, then, well, it's a bad thing, isn't it?
The bad people will ruin the rep of your own people, and the people turned away certainly won't be able to help clean up the rep, will they? They'll be on the outside, looking in, remembering the monitors that treated them poorly, and see the loudest, most obnoxious, most noticeable of your own people, and largely unable to see the rest.
Bad reps are created through misunderstandings, lack of information, twisted truths, and exclusion. Keeping people in the dark will not help.

The gaming community fits in well with what I just said. Are the trolls, and jerks the majority? All the bigots, sexists, racists, etc.? Doesn't matter because they're the loudest, most obnoxious most noticeable people. The fewer people allowed in to say "there are lots of good people that are gamers" the more prominent this bad rep will remain.
Once there are enough people involved in the gaming community, there will be enough to officially kill the bad rep.

Is this still a thing?

I mean, I'm not pretending all the ill will and insular attitudes in some (not all) groups of male gamers went away overnight, but I had kind of gotten the impression that maybe the worst offenders had at least gotten the idea that complaining about "fake girl gamers" was a non-starter that wasn't going to score them points with anyone but a very small choir (of the "preaching to" variety.) And pretty much everyone else was going to say, "Oh, are we issuing membership cards now? Should I have a resume handy? Do you think you have particular qualifications by which you can include yourself and your friends and exclude anyone with an extra "x" chromosome willy-nilly"?

I get the point, it just feels like this was odd timing for an entire episode on the subject. Am I wrong? Have there been recent events suggesting this attitude is still widely prevalent? I'm not asking rhetorically; it seems from where I stand that this hasn't been front-and-center for a while. I could certainly be wrong.

Rebel_Raven:

IkeGreil29:

Rebel_Raven:

snip

snip

What do gamer girls want? I cannot speak for them all, but largely the same thing gamer guys want, and often get as far as I'm concerned. Gamer Girls and gamer guys are two sides of the same gamer coin. Gamer Girls are people just like gamer guys. They're all as diverse as the other.

Your example about metalheads works well.

Personally I don't see the problem about games being widely accepted either, but that doesn't change the fact that people are actively being excluded, and there's people that support that exclusion which does cause problems. To say the least they aren't helping the image of the gamer improve.

A part of the negative associations with being a gamer won't go away, though. That part is the angry belligerent gamer. They use other gamers to vent on, and troll. They do this because there's not much that can be done in retalliation.v It's a sad fact of things that won't change until humanity does.

It's one thing to be dubious about the women that shunned them. It's another matter entirely to be dubious of women one just met, haven't met, and/or never will meet. That's just discriminating based on gender, to put it gently.
One one hand reactions like that are human nature to not be fond of what caused hurt. I get that.
On the other, one can always strive to rise above hating the many for the crimes of the few, or at least act like they have.

I want games to be able to be part of someone's identity, certainly; I don't want gamer to become anyone who has played Angry Birds and Bejeweled. But I think movies went through a similar thing. They were at first mostly appreciated by certain people and have become one of the most popular things to do socially now. But there's still a boatload of movies that are made more for the people that like the intricacies of film. Much like that, I feel that games like Dark Souls and other more niche titles will be what "separates" people. Those titles have something to talk about though, unlike the constant regurgitation of similar titles that surround it. Kitsch movies are needed; sometimes you want to indulge in a Michael Bay style stupid film, just like sometimes an FPS is what will satisfy your gaming urge. Indie games are asking questions about gameplay and pushing the boundaries of it like indie films often do. They aren't the same, games and movies, but they're the newest form of media and I find it easier to compare them because of that.

Beligerent gamers I can handle. What I can't is the constant jokes made at the expense of the medium simply because of stupid associations.

IkeGreil29:

Rebel_Raven:

IkeGreil29:
snip

What do gamer girls want? I cannot speak for them all, but largely the same thing gamer guys want, and often get as far as I'm concerned. Gamer Girls and gamer guys are two sides of the same gamer coin. Gamer Girls are people just like gamer guys. They're all as diverse as the other.

Your example about metalheads works well.

Personally I don't see the problem about games being widely accepted either, but that doesn't change the fact that people are actively being excluded, and there's people that support that exclusion which does cause problems. To say the least they aren't helping the image of the gamer improve.

A part of the negative associations with being a gamer won't go away, though. That part is the angry belligerent gamer. They use other gamers to vent on, and troll. They do this because there's not much that can be done in retalliation.v It's a sad fact of things that won't change until humanity does.

It's one thing to be dubious about the women that shunned them. It's another matter entirely to be dubious of women one just met, haven't met, and/or never will meet. That's just discriminating based on gender, to put it gently.
One one hand reactions like that are human nature to not be fond of what caused hurt. I get that.
On the other, one can always strive to rise above hating the many for the crimes of the few, or at least act like they have.

I want games to be able to be part of someone's identity, certainly; I don't want gamer to become anyone who has played Angry Birds and Bejeweled. But I think movies went through a similar thing. They were at first mostly appreciated by certain people and have become one of the most popular things to do socially now. But there's still a boatload of movies that are made more for the people that like the intricacies of film. Much like that, I feel that games like Dark Souls and other more niche titles will be what "separates" people. Those titles have something to talk about though, unlike the constant regurgitation of similar titles that surround it. Kitsch movies are needed; sometimes you want to indulge in a Michael Bay style stupid film, just like sometimes an FPS is what will satisfy your gaming urge. Indie games are asking questions about gameplay and pushing the boundaries of it like indie films often do. They aren't the same, games and movies, but they're the newest form of media and I find it easier to compare them because of that.

Beligerent gamers I can handle. What I can't is the constant jokes made at the expense of the medium simply because of stupid associations.

Unspoken, unenforced divisions can be had pretty readily. You can take pride in the fact that you played games others haven't, but when you persecute those who haven't for whatever reasons, then the problem arises.

You're free to be dissapointed that others haven't taken an interest in what you have. You're free to disagree with what they have taken interest in, but it stops being okay when you start kicking people in the teeth over it. To be tolerated, you must be tolerable, and that means tolerating others. :P
At the worst, if you disagree with others, then just don't associate with them, and have no hard feelings, and get away before the hard feelings can arise.

Your identity is your own, just like as other's identities are there. It's a bit old fashioned, but treat peope the way you want to be treated.

As far as the whole problem with being seen in a negative light is that the people outside of that light are often in the dark. They lack information, and it'll take more than a few people saying "That bad rep is undeserved!" while keeping the people that are to be convinced are kept out, and/or mistreated.

Rebel_Raven:

Miroluck:

Rebel_Raven:
snip
The sort of gamer that excludes others vehemently, even though they aren't directly affected by newcomers,
snip

Well, you have to monitor your own people. If you don't, you're gonna end up with an equivalent of the TvTropes forum. So, in a way, they are affected.

And if you're going to monitor your own people, you should be prepared to police your own people. If you're gate keeping, but not taking account the trouble makers you already let in, then, well, it's a bad thing, isn't it?
The bad people will ruin the rep of your own people, and the people turned away certainly won't be able to help clean up the rep, will they? They'll be on the outside, looking in, remembering the monitors that treated them poorly, and see the loudest, most obnoxious, most noticeable of your own people, and largely unable to see the rest.

Well, policing it is then. About time we deport all the douchebags out, and it should be done regardless of gatekeeping part.

Miroluck:

Rebel_Raven:

Miroluck:

Well, you have to monitor your own people. If you don't, you're gonna end up with an equivalent of the TvTropes forum. So, in a way, they are affected.

And if you're going to monitor your own people, you should be prepared to police your own people. If you're gate keeping, but not taking account the trouble makers you already let in, then, well, it's a bad thing, isn't it?
The bad people will ruin the rep of your own people, and the people turned away certainly won't be able to help clean up the rep, will they? They'll be on the outside, looking in, remembering the monitors that treated them poorly, and see the loudest, most obnoxious, most noticeable of your own people, and largely unable to see the rest.

Well, policing it is then. About time we deport all the douchebags out, and it should be done anyway.

Good luck playing bouncer against all the bad elements, douchebags, and the sort of your people. I mean that sincerely.
Personally I'm convinced it's impossible to get rid of them due to human nature.

Still, we all fight our battles how we think we should.

IllumInaTIma:
I just love how Jim talks about nipples with Jonathan Holmes playing Wii U on a background.

Pretty fitting footage if you ask me. :D The video needs more mention of anus though.

i was hoping this would be 12 pages of people saying "Jonathan Holmes' anus"

*sigh*

neonit:

Thing is, if you want to point out the stupidity of other "way of thinking", people tend to chose the most extreme cases.

And when one side has prevalent "extremes" and the other doesn't, that's false equivalence. That's not to say they don't exist, but trying to take the piss on a small group to show the other side of the intolerance of the mainstream looks inane and hypocritical.

Lightknight:
Well, our culture hasn't exactly been known for social aptness, particularly around women. We do have extremely anti-social or just plain awkward members in our ranks.

Well, a couple problems there:

1. This isn't the same culture anymore. Whether or not you (or anyone else) likes it, video games have developed into a much larger community.

2. This is at the same time we're seeking legitimacy from the mainstream. And since you think women should expect gamers to behave like hostile basement-dwelling manchildren, I expect you agree that gamers should at the same time expect to be treated as hostile, basement-dwelling manchildren. I mean, it's only reasonable, right? I hope you've never been one of those folks to act like we should have legitimacy.

But do you generally have evidence that our culture as a whole is particularly anti-female gamer?

Numbered again for my sanity:

1. You just spent two paragraphs excusing, explaining and justifying a behaviour you don't believe is actually prevalent?

2. Examples have been given frequently, including this thread. I'm always wary of people who ask for evidence after evidence has been given. Perhaps you really did just saunter into the thread, but it seems suspect. Especially when you're already making excuses for the behaviour.

I'd also attest that the continuation of this thread largely hinges on such a mentality. I'm not sure what else people are protesting. Well, most people. Some people seem to be trying to skirt it.

Knew that one was gonna bite me on the ass, should've clarified. She's never really made an effort to say that she liked gaming, if you know what I mean.[/quote]

Since she HAS done as such, I'm assuming you mean "I haven't actually watched her TVW videos but I hate her anyway, likely for reasons that I heard someone say and accepted wholly without any attempt at verification." In fact, you seem to be endemic of the problem being discussed at this point.

If I'm wrong, of course, please clarify. However, it's hard to believe you actually watched her videos and took that away.

The most notable example of this was that whole thing with her calling out Bastion for sexism because she ignored a big part of the game where most of the character development happened.

Haven't played the game, but even descriptions from sites about the game offer very little to make me think Anita is wrong. It also doesn't look as though she has to "ignore a big part of the game." Isn't most of her development missable? Again, if I'm wrong, feel free to clarify, but I've looked at a couple dozen pages now that talk about it in completely skippable terms. And even then, it speaks to characterisation less than history.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I can, at this point, only rely on what I've Googled.

Before Jim got into the excitingly homo-erotic stuff, it didn't actually feel like he was talking about a parallel universe. I would not be surprised if the people who feel they need to vet gamer girls are the same ones that don't count guys who play Call of Duty and Madden as gamers.

Rebel_Raven:
[quote="IkeGreil29" post="6.821269.19846402"]
About the Zelda issue, it's met an immense amount of resistance and hatred as illustrated in the comments of this article:
http://www.destructoid.com/gamers-urge-nintendo-for-a-playable-zelda-257454.phtml

I can't fully fathom some of the reasons people have against the idea of a playable Zelda short of the fear she'll get the "Princess Peach" treatment and get sent on a mission for a happy making vibe-sceptor using wild moodswings to make her journey, or treated like Samus in The Other M, which aughta speak for itself.

No one's against the idea of a playable Zelda. It just makes NO sense given the mythos of the Zelda games. She created the Master Sword, has untold amounts of power, then you want her to just be able to fight and beat up the bad guys? That's a Mary Sue character and not very interesting.

What people seem more interested is a female Link character or the option to choose the gender. If people made that more interesting, that'd be understandable. But playing as just Zelda when she already does so much in the game based on Wisdom, not Courage, is too dangerously close to being a character that becomes uninteresting.

IT'S TRUE. I'm a fake geek boy, and I just want your attention.

*cries bitterly*

I love you, Jim Sterling.

Gindil:

Rebel_Raven:
[quote="IkeGreil29" post="6.821269.19846402"]
About the Zelda issue, it's met an immense amount of resistance and hatred as illustrated in the comments of this article:
http://www.destructoid.com/gamers-urge-nintendo-for-a-playable-zelda-257454.phtml

I can't fully fathom some of the reasons people have against the idea of a playable Zelda short of the fear she'll get the "Princess Peach" treatment and get sent on a mission for a happy making vibe-sceptor using wild moodswings to make her journey, or treated like Samus in The Other M, which aughta speak for itself.

No one's against the idea of a playable Zelda. It just makes NO sense given the mythos of the Zelda games. She created the Master Sword, has untold amounts of power, then you want her to just be able to fight and beat up the bad guys? That's a Mary Sue character and not very interesting.

What people seem more interested is a female Link character or the option to choose the gender. If people made that more interesting, that'd be understandable. But playing as just Zelda when she already does so much in the game based on Wisdom, not Courage, is too dangerously close to being a character that becomes uninteresting.

Funny, you say no one's against it, but here you are saying you're against it since it makes no sense in game, and she'd become mary sue, and she'd be uninteresting. That's very much against Zelda having a more heroic role as the protagonist.
And lets not forget the comments section on that article, here.

Shiek? Tetra? Both combat capable Zeldas in the mythos of the game. Zelda helped fight now and then actively as herself, especially in fights vs Gannon.

How does it make sense that she's as powerful as all that, yet gets kidnapped in nearly every game? How wise is it to leave yourself vulnerable to being kidnapped in the first place, or not have people won over so you have a legion of people who volunteeer to, or insist on defending you? It's a bit of a long standing peeve of mine with "intelligent" people in games, tv, and movies. They seem to know everything but how to defend themselves.

Why ya gotta keep Zelda in the role of getting kidnapped? Are you saying it's impossible for Zelda to be the hero?

If she were well written as the hero of her own legend, she could pull it off without being mary sue.

A gender select Link would be ok, I guess, but I think Zelda as a hero would be more pallatable for me.

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