Jimquisition: Gamer Guys

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
 

Darmani:
Raven I give you that Zlda is a supporting NPC. But she isn't the only girl in gaming we HAVE rpg female characters of messianic repuattion who wield that power on screen and even in player hands. We have Skullgirls, most rpgs (Japanese and Western), and etc. But that goes out the wall because apparently Zelda getting kidnapped is oppressing female gamers?

Zelda was made links PARTNER in Spirit Tracks, was hinted at having a parallel coming of age story in Skyward Sword. This happened with Groose and people love him. Its why male gamers feel the argument is specious. you got that already and you're still upset and moreover games aren't intended to do whatever for gender but convey their entertainment.

Now I'll admit, Tetra just hiding out was kinda bad... and then she shoots at ganon in the final battle as acknowledgement hey she's the princess and its her life. Zelda was practically shoehorned into Twilight Princess because, get this, SHE WASN'T THE FOCUS that was Midna (btw way to ignore the four other significant female characters not counting the Zora Queen there) in the title and please don't say *she* was shortchanged.

And that's just Zelda. There are games conceived of with female characters from the beginning or aimed at female players (the various bishi laden ones) that have diverse powers and grappling with dramatic situations. The mystery series from Nintendo on the DS... Eternal Darkness, Atelier series, Tales, Sands of Destruction, Pokemon, Persona, and others.

So then we get to the more specific issue. There aren't badass females, who don't sexual appeal to male gamers, in "hardcore" titles. The DOA girls, Bayonetta, Bullet Witch, Sheeva Almar, Jill Valentine, and etc.

See dig in its less a desperately superbad situation of "no girls" and more a "not girls in titles I like in the roles I want" and sorry THAT'S NOT OPPRESSION.

Now it is a lack of serving to the customer base and acknowledgement of them.

Yeah it wouldn't hurt for the not exactly strapped for cash Call of Duty series to fit in a lady into the macho tired war stories as they "go deeper" (especially when America is under attack by Russia). But it can also backfire (Other M, the gamer shorthand for sexism in videogames. I'll even concede it didn't do Samus right but was trying and the story isn't more "sexist" than throwing all these paternal issues in video games currently is.. seriously take a step back and Other M is practically a Bruce Willis movie in space)

Why are you bringing in Anita when I haven't, nor do I want to??

Why are you talking to me like I'm a feminist?

Let me explain something here. I'm not a feminist. I'm not a blind follower of Anita.

I'm a female gamer that wants more female protagonists in their own game, and I'd like them to be well written. Of course I'm going to support a game whre Zelda is the main protagonist, and the played character.

Games like Pokemon where you pick a gender don't cut it with me until the gender of the protagonist makes a real diffirence in the game.

I happen to be aware of things like:
http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/brink-no-girls-allowed
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/05/01/god-of-war-ascension-multiplayer/ or http://www.gameinformer.com/games/god_of_war_ascension/b/ps3/archive/2012/04/30/sony-unveils-god-of-war-ascensions-multiplayer.aspx
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists
And that's the -short- list.

Which grinds my gears because female protagonists are getting shafted in so many ways. Modern gaming "conventional wisdom" does not want a strong female presense in games, or in how they're getting made. Women are usually relegated to support.

Some female protagonists aren't even seeing the light of day!

How many of the games have you listed have -only- women as the playable character? Compare that to the games where there's only male playable characters, or both genders. That's why I'm mad at the industry.

And it doesn't help that some of the games with female only playable characters are insulting.

... Other M isn't bad because it's a bruce willis movie in space. It's bad because it takes a lot of the power away from one of the most powerful iconic women in gaming on many levels, and for some strange reason "the baby" has become something of a meme based off it. I wonder why?

Also try this:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13373815860B43920100&i_id=13384263550I62094100&p=17
Credit to JellySlimerMan for providing me with the link.

You largely understand what's going on, though. I'm glad for that. You understand that the industry doesn't exactly have the greatest attitude towards female protagonsts, the women wanting to play games, that there is a lack of female protagonists, and so forth. I just wanted to make my stance clear.

Rebel_Raven:

Even if it was, I doubt most people would actively look it up. It's either common knowledge, or they don't care about adding it to the conversation. I dare say only a few people would care enough.

Still, any info regarding gender on games should be provided. Just like how i like to provide this kind of information when people (specially women) do not get the "privilege" of being a man:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982#.UaC7HEopl-l

"Privilege" being an horrendously subjective term. Also i like to point out that such article exist AFTER Internet was made available to everyone, unlike the 90's and the fucking 56K modems. Where were the feminists when that info was released, i wonder?

I wish I knew what the pivotal point where the conventional wisdom came to be was. I can only guess, myself. I do have a strong feeling it reaches back as far as Mirror's Edge.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them

I definitely agree that the gaming industry as it is is incompitent on so many levels. Developers are dieing off, producers are dieing off, people are getting laid off, people are taking pay cuts, the industry goes for quality of sales over quantity of sales, games are loosing their souls to market testers or being denied outright, and so on.

Hell, it might be that conventional wisdom that's playing a role in killing the industry. Modern games exclude female protagonists, so women, and the guys that like playing a women are getting ticked off, and not buying.
I know I'm less interested in games these days because of that conventional wisdom being put into practice.

But "Beyond Good And Evil" is even older (2003) than Mirror's Edge (2007) and i STILL dont know where do they get that idea. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/BeyondGoodAndEvil?from=Main.BeyondGoodAndEvil

You see, when people tell me its the focus group fault (and therefore the fault of the mainstream gaming audience) i rised my eyebrown so high that its now orbiting Alpha Centaury. It reminds me of those "studies" about how games cause more violence who get a shitton of mentally unstable people to be the subjects of the "study" and conclude that 10/10 people end up more violent. Well, no shit. They are already insane to begin with, and is not really a way to measure the rest of fucking humanity capacity of being affected by games and shit.

It ALSO reminds me of Bioware own "statistics" to prove that the ending bashers were just "a vocal minority" (prove to themselves, cause its not available to the public. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight)
http://o.canada.com/2013/04/24/mass-effect-series-lead-writer-it-working-on-mass-effect-4/

Well, you know what they say:There are three kinds of falsehoods: lies, damned lies, and statistics
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LiesDamnedLiesAndStatistics

But that is still looks like incompetence rather than the Patriarchy™ (as Anita would put it). I sincerely hope the Patriarchy™ pays for ALL the looses. I mean, the fucking Rockefeller were smart enough to make women have equal rights so they can be taxed like men. Cause you know, money. And there is no reason to NOT abuse the new female audience for monetary gain.

Since there is no real grounds to know WHY they think that way since all their info is pure made up bullshit, the only rational explanation i can give is that they are just copying or taking notes from Focus Groups FROM Cinema, since the game industry is trying too hard to be Hollywood after all. So if Hollywood doesn't think there should be females, then so will the game industry.

Where's Korval now? If a person is going to champion the cause, they need to stick with it, or they're going to fade into obscurity, or the fact they tried certainly is.

Korval is busy making a Stardusk analysis and shitting on it for its piss poor shallow romance that makes Twilight look inspired:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13012904770B90347200

Then again, how can that person get into championing the cause if NOBODY tells him/her/it that is doing a good job at it? nobody reads the fucking Metroid Other M blog because people already assume that Korval is a Metroid Prime fanboy who wants his games to have no story like all FPS do (a Poison The Well Fallacy, since they assume that MP is like COD, when COD wasn't even fucking popular back then, nor is MP a FPS, its a First Person Adventure). Or they think the sexist thing is pure bullshit (thanks to the pure incompetence of our journalists for not noticing a true champion for the "sexism in games debate", by dismissing it as "you just want Samus to be silent, you sexist FUCK!")

I wonder, since it is already established that Anita reads Tv Tropes, what would happen when she reads that blog on M:OM, and concludes that the gaming journalists are too stupid to notice something so obviously wrong. Shit will get real.

I've little doubt the game's going to fail and by fail, I mean not live up to the astronomically stupid expectations of the company.

Here is the big one i am scared off. Remember how i said earlier how there is NO evidence that a game with a female has failed hard on the merit of having a female alone? what if EA is trying to get this evidence with Mirror's Edge with Anita in the front?

Imagine, what if EA doesn't try to put absurd standards on this one? what if the game actually fails without ANY of EA meddling and they leave everything to Anita's disposal, and thus making HER responsible for all the failings? EA will finally have its evidence of why females doesn't work, and all they needed to do is to put someone everyone hates on a franchise they dont care about to begin with, and the rest is history.

It will be really hard to distinguish what opinions are made objectively about the game's failings. Maybe the game has a feminist message but its done in such a crude and amateuristic way that puts the plot on hold for 10 hours, and would put the "Who's John Galt?" scene to shame. But everyone else will see that as an unjustified attack on feminism and blah blah.

Maybe we should look back on previous games that had an author that had controversial views, or uses the money to found things like Anti Gay marriage or something. Here is an example, and i wish for everyone to tell me how that went:

People have to try, or else nothing gets done.

But you wont send a Clown to fix a Nuclear Reactor problem, when a Nuclear Physicist Expert can do it better or do it at all compared to the Clown who is just going to press all buttons until the lights stop going red.

The only brand of feminism I can think of that Anita represents is her own, or possibly one created by the input of many feminists provided she's in touch with the community, and wants to represent as many feminists as possible.

Yeah, there's going to be those people who try to demonize you for disagreeing.

But the people dissagreeing are ALSO feminist. Maaaaaaaaybe HER brand of feminism makes everything worse acording to other sources of feminism. Maaaaaaaaaaaybe we should get actual feminist to comment on this so i can stop fucking guessing.

Even then, its not like we need to understand feminism to point out the lack of details and context that her videos omit, if we take them as self contained educational works.

Rebel_Raven:

Yeah it wouldn't hurt for the not exactly strapped for cash Call of Duty series to fit in a lady into the macho tired war stories as they "go deeper" (especially when America is under attack by Russia). But it can also backfire (Other M, the gamer shorthand for sexism in videogames. I'll even concede it didn't do Samus right but was trying and the story isn't more "sexist" than throwing all these paternal issues in video games currently is.. seriously take a step back and Other M is practically a Bruce Willis movie in space)

Metroid Other M is......a special needs game.

This game is basically the first (the second being Mass Effect 3) as for why i dont trust gaming journalism due to sheer incompetence. They ramble on and on of sexism on videogames, but when a real offender, a game that portraits the abusive relationship of Adam and Samus as a Platonic Ideal appears, they do jack shit with it.

http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html
http://www.screwattack.com/news/arguments-other-ms-defense-and-why-they-are-all-bullshit

That is all for the journalists that made some sense. As for the worst offenders well...i will jut say MovieBob and move on.

Its up to the fanbase itself to set things right. Because, as always, we are alone on this on making a real analyzis on the sheer attention to detail put into Samus and Adam "relationship":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ww_NwjC0Q&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX4mhp-8sOc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfS0254dRRw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDZm4wPeu6A

I heard by one of the forum posters here that M:OM is like a Eldritch Abomination. You THINK you can grasp its true form, but actually its your mind desperately trying to make sense out of it. The sexism in this game is so pure that you are not sure what you are actually seeing.

Great episode, Jim!

On criminally brief review of the thread, I think we might have to have a corollary to Godwin's Law saying that all internet discussions involving gender will at some point bring up Feminist Frequency...

Rebel_Raven:

Why are you bringing in Anita when I haven't, nor do I want to??

I don't use the word Anita in my post, I used find to dbl check. I pointed out the actually wide issue in gaming AND that the argument "there are no females allowed in gaming" is being lobbed and point out its a little overstated and why its not responded to with agreement, that a person could disagree, that its actually flawed in its formation.

And yes its relevant, because the general argument is that Zelda being kidnapped represents a bad thing. But to be a bad thing it has to harm someone or something. If the argument is its harmful due to a trend, then you've got something. Otherwise you are telling an artist, without even paying them or the artist offering to take your suggestions, "make me a sandwich *this* way."
I am responding to you with the frustration and dislike of the argument I've met before, yes. Because in your complaint you do not just speak for yourself but "women" that means you open up a response to yourself AS a representative of that group and I can bring in my observations and experiences with them. and that's just what I give the argument, for Sarkeesian I have much more issues.

Females characters as mains are out of fashion. They will get back in fashion. The main thing is looking at where games are trending. Moreover "good writing" is not just subjective but as a request from a female player talking about female characters likely means less good things so much as specific things she is likely to see as good.

NOT EVIL THINGS but it requires more detail than conveyed by "good decent female characters." (FFXIII have none for you with female frontline star? Lightning was first revealed and in all the promotional and tie-in material) Using Jim as a common reference let us go to the "coffeee" example, again where people generally respond with one answer but pick another. So that's a common HUMAN trait. With female gamers I think the frustration is less "no women in games" so much as they feel they aren't welcome or in some cases pandered to as their male counterparts are. But really Femmesheppe ALONE points to how females are not some dark secret or unaddressed in games.
The tendency to interpret along the lines of victimization on instances like women on covers is another element. For one there was a STRONG cycle were women were pushed or femininity or androgyny was in. In response we got the mesomorph western-ish masculine idealization as more popular ESPECIALLY in high performing shooters that became more popular. With a predominantly aging and male audience being elder and especially FATHERS is in.
There are complex reasons this is happening but this isn't the discussion I see offered and had. Its the same old one of females cry out hurt, society get cracking to stop that offense.

Should we stop that offense? Yes.

But some things AIN'T opening for discussion to solve it or to convince people to change minds. And large accusations of "you're out to exclude women" don't work as icebreakers. Even if it was true then why aren't you expecting and coolly ready for "Yes we hate you and your vaginas you found out. Muhawahahaha" If its intentional they'll keep doing it. If its some level of intentional, but not lauded going in like that will NOT get you what you want.

Also "I want a female who's hardass" (which isn't that deep a reading) isn't a request by runout minority being oppressed but a consumer who wants to be catered to and rather specific. Akin to "change the ending of this game to satisfy me" which even when the subject is hands down terrible really is going to come off as crappy.

Its also possible the market research is right, to a degree. Games headlining or starring females are on the decline and using market data reflects that. Also demanding gendered stories is... okay not bad but that's personal request for what you want, its not a demand for a universal good. If it for mutually beneficial good sell it for that and not on the negatives of current female characters who aren't written to be what you want.

JellySlimerMan:

Rebel_Raven:

Even if it was, I doubt most people would actively look it up. It's either common knowledge, or they don't care about adding it to the conversation. I dare say only a few people would care enough.

Still, any info regarding gender on games should be provided. Just like how i like to provide this kind of information when people (specially women) do not get the "privilege" of being a man:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982#.UaC7HEopl-l

"Privilege" being an horrendously subjective term. Also i like to point out that such article exist AFTER Internet was made available to everyone, unlike the 90's and the fucking 56K modems. Where were the feminists when that info was released, i wonder?

I wish I knew what the pivotal point where the conventional wisdom came to be was. I can only guess, myself. I do have a strong feeling it reaches back as far as Mirror's Edge.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them

I definitely agree that the gaming industry as it is is incompitent on so many levels. Developers are dieing off, producers are dieing off, people are getting laid off, people are taking pay cuts, the industry goes for quality of sales over quantity of sales, games are loosing their souls to market testers or being denied outright, and so on.

Hell, it might be that conventional wisdom that's playing a role in killing the industry. Modern games exclude female protagonists, so women, and the guys that like playing a women are getting ticked off, and not buying.
I know I'm less interested in games these days because of that conventional wisdom being put into practice.

But "Beyond Good And Evil" is even older (2003) than Mirror's Edge (2007) and i STILL dont know where do they get that idea. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/BeyondGoodAndEvil?from=Main.BeyondGoodAndEvil

You see, when people tell me its the focus group fault (and therefore the fault of the mainstream gaming audience) i rised my eyebrown so high that its now orbiting Alpha Centaury. It reminds me of those "studies" about how games cause more violence who get a shitton of mentally unstable people to be the subjects of the "study" and conclude that 10/10 people end up more violent. Well, no shit. They are already insane to begin with, and is not really a way to measure the rest of fucking humanity capacity of being affected by games and shit.

It ALSO reminds me of Bioware own "statistics" to prove that the ending bashers were just "a vocal minority" (prove to themselves, cause its not available to the public. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight)
http://o.canada.com/2013/04/24/mass-effect-series-lead-writer-it-working-on-mass-effect-4/

Well, you know what they say:There are three kinds of falsehoods: lies, damned lies, and statistics
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LiesDamnedLiesAndStatistics

But that is still looks like incompetence rather than the Patriarchy™ (as Anita would put it). I sincerely hope the Patriarchy™ pays for ALL the looses. I mean, the fucking Rockefeller were smart enough to make women have equal rights so they can be taxed like men. Cause you know, money. And there is no reason to NOT abuse the new female audience for monetary gain.

Since there is no real grounds to know WHY they think that way since all their info is pure made up bullshit, the only rational explanation i can give is that they are just copying or taking notes from Focus Groups FROM Cinema, since the game industry is trying too hard to be Hollywood after all. So if Hollywood doesn't think there should be females, then so will the game industry.

Where's Korval now? If a person is going to champion the cause, they need to stick with it, or they're going to fade into obscurity, or the fact they tried certainly is.

Korval is busy making a Stardusk analysis and shitting on it for its piss poor shallow romance that makes Twilight look inspired:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13012904770B90347200

Then again, how can that person get into championing the cause if NOBODY tells him/her/it that is doing a good job at it? nobody reads the fucking Metroid Other M blog because people already assume that Korval is a Metroid Prime fanboy who wants his games to have no story like all FPS do (a Poison The Well Fallacy, since they assume that MP is like COD, when COD wasn't even fucking popular back then, nor is MP a FPS, its a First Person Adventure). Or they think the sexist thing is pure bullshit (thanks to the pure incompetence of our journalists for not noticing a true champion for the "sexism in games debate", by dismissing it as "you just want Samus to be silent, you sexist FUCK!")

I wonder, since it is already established that Anita reads Tv Tropes, what would happen when she reads that blog on M:OM, and concludes that the gaming journalists are too stupid to notice something so obviously wrong. Shit will get real.

I've little doubt the game's going to fail and by fail, I mean not live up to the astronomically stupid expectations of the company.

Here is the big one i am scared off. Remember how i said earlier how there is NO evidence that a game with a female has failed hard on the merit of having a female alone? what if EA is trying to get this evidence with Mirror's Edge with Anita in the front?

Imagine, what if EA doesn't try to put absurd standards on this one? what if the game actually fails without ANY of EA meddling and they leave everything to Anita's disposal, and thus making HER responsible for all the failings? EA will finally have its evidence of why females doesn't work, and all they needed to do is to put someone everyone hates on a franchise they dont care about to begin with, and the rest is history.

It will be really hard to distinguish what opinions are made objectively about the game's failings. Maybe the game has a feminist message but its done in such a crude and amateuristic way that puts the plot on hold for 10 hours, and would put the "Who's John Galt?" scene to shame. But everyone else will see that as an unjustified attack on feminism and blah blah.

Maybe we should look back on previous games that had an author that had controversial views, or uses the money to found things like Anti Gay marriage or something. Here is an example, and i wish for everyone to tell me how that went:

People have to try, or else nothing gets done.

But you wont send a Clown to fix a Nuclear Reactor problem, when a Nuclear Physicist Expert can do it better or do it at all compared to the Clown who is just going to press all buttons until the lights stop going red.

The only brand of feminism I can think of that Anita represents is her own, or possibly one created by the input of many feminists provided she's in touch with the community, and wants to represent as many feminists as possible.

Yeah, there's going to be those people who try to demonize you for disagreeing.

But the people dissagreeing are ALSO feminist. Maaaaaaaaybe HER brand of feminism makes everything worse acording to other sources of feminism. Maaaaaaaaaaaybe we should get actual feminist to comment on this so i can stop fucking guessing.

Even then, its not like we need to understand feminism to point out the lack of details and context that her videos omit, if we take them as self contained educational works.

Well, since we're using links about lesbian women living as men:
http://vitaminw.co/culture-society/it-gets-better%E2%80%A6when-you%E2%80%99re-straight-man
Take it how you will.

I found it in this site:
http://www.ihollaback.org/blog/2013/06/
where people, usually women submit tales where men try to pick them up on the streets. It's not pretty, the things some of these women went through.

It's not -just- focus groups that I'm blaming. It's the people that get the focus groups together. They look for people who'll confirm what they want to hear over what people in general think. Your example of focus testers getting unstable people to prove games make people more violent is an example of that.

Or they'll get focus groups made of fans of some other series and end up trying to ape that series.

There's a plethora of bad motives, and bad methods that can bias a group really badly.

Of course the people getting the groups together aren't to blame on their own.

Societal pressures can make focus groups liars. The need for acceptance make their answers conform with everyone else instead of saying how they really feel. It's not always the case, but it skews the results.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7405-Damn-Fine-Coffee
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7161-Perfect-Pasta-Sauce
Jim talks about focus groups, and points out flaws, more specefically in Damn Fine Coffee.

I think some attempts are made to try and capitalize on girl gamers. I'm sure we've all seen the pastel worlds of Bratz, or Barbie.
I can't pretend to know how well those do since games like that do. They still get made, so thats gotta be saying something, I guess.
Personally I don't really find it inclusive as opposed to segregational.

Honestly I doubt we'll ever know what caused the whole "boys don't want to play as girls" thing. Maybe nothing started it as it was always there?

As for becoming a champion, you can't do it for feedback, and you can't count of feedback. You have to do it because you want to. Because you've got some kind of passion for it. If you're lucky, people learn about you. It helps to go to get word of mouth advertisement, getting on youtube, or escapist, and talking up your points often, and with some reliability.
Most importantly, despite getting kicked, or praised, you have to want to do it.
Of course you can pick, and chose your fights. You really have to. Reckless advocation for something can wear out your welcome.

Honestly, I don't follow Anita, so I have no idea what to expect from her. Right now all I can look forward to is her Damsels in distress pt 3 where she handles women saving guys. Even then, it's something kinda meh.

While your theory about EA trying to take down Anita may be possible, even if the game fails, if it's exclusive to Xbone, Xbone will be a potential scapegoat.

The Shadow Complex boycott threat does sound like it'll be a precursor to Mirror's Edge 2.

While you don't send a clown in to fix a nuclear reactor, you aren't going to get your point across if no one wants to listen to you. Anita, and Girlwriteswhat have the same problem to me in that their delivery is extremely dry.
Being talked to through a pokerface and a monotonal nature with a fairly bland appearance will mess with my interest level. That's just me speaking from my point of view, mind you.
It's why I prefer Jim Sterling over Anita.

You're going to need a board of feminists to get a feminist point of view on Anita. Like I said earlier, feminism isn't a hive mind entity. Feminists do disagree with feminists. There's a pro-sexuality and anti-sexuality division out there. I'm sure there are feminists out there that demonize other feminists because they stand on opposite sides of the topic. It's like every other grouping of large amounts of people. They're going to disagree within the ranks.
Getting large groups of people together and having them work together for an extended period of time is one of the hardest tasks on earth.

P.S. the post after the one I replied to here is misquoted towards me.

Darmani:

Rebel_Raven:

Why are you bringing in Anita when I haven't, nor do I want to??

I don't use the word Anita in my post, I used find to dbl check. I point out the actually wide issue in gaming AND that the argument lobbed "there are no females allowed in gaming" and point out its a little overstated and why its not responded to with agreement that a person could disagree that its actually flawed in its formation. And yes its relavent because the general argument is that Zelda being kidnap represents a bad thing. But to be a bad thing it has to harm someone or something. If the argument is its harmful due to a trend then you've got something. Otherwise you are telling an artist, without even paying them or them offering to take your suggestions, make me a sandwich this way.
I am responding to you with the frustration and dislike of the argument I've met before, yes. Because your complaint is not just for yourself but "women" that means you open up a response to yourself AS a representative of a group. and that's just the argument for Sarkeesian I have much more issues.

Females characters as mains are out of fashion. They will get back in fashion. The main thing is looking at where games are trending. Moreover "good writing" is not just subjective but from a female player talking about female characters likely means less good things so much as specific things they are likely to see good.

NOT EVIL THINGS but it requires more detail than conveyed by "good decent female characters." (FFXIII have none for you with female frontline star?) Using Jim as a common reference lets go to the "coffeee" example again where people generally respond with one answer but pick another. So that's a common HUMAN trait. With female gamers I think the frustration is less "no women in games" so much as they feel they aren't welcome or in some cases pandered to as their male counterparts are most certainly. But really Femmesheppe ALONE points to how females are not some dark secret in games.
The tendency to interpret along the lines of victimization on instances like women on covers is another element. For one there was a STRONG cycle were women were pushed or feminity or androgny was in. In response we got the mesomorphic western-ish masculine idealization as more popular ESPECIALLY in high performing shooters. With a predominantly aging and male audience being elder FATHERS are in.
There are complex reasons this is happening but this isn't the discussion I see offered and had its the same old one of females hurt, society get cracking to stop that offense.
Should we stop that offense? Yes. But some things AIN'T opening for discussion to solve it or to convince people to change minds. And large accusations of "you're out to exclude women" don't work as icebreakers. Even if it was true then why aren't you expecting and cooling ready for "Yes we hate you and your vaginas you found out. Muhawahahaha" If its intentional they'll keep doing it. If its some level of intentional but not lauded going in like that will NOT get you what you want.
"I want more women in gaming"
"whoah here are reasons we don't do that and its not part of the higher selling model that works" (remember everyone is trying to be call of duty or Limbo they want to reach THAT plateau and THEN they'll diversify)
"Ah but there is this mass untapped market both coming up and now growing in number of people and aims and interest. They want to be caterred to with female stories."
"Like Other M? Fashion Designer? That one where all the dudes on the martial art program need your healing touch? Hell Trauma Center with its General Hospital with minigames make? Dozens of rpgs?"
"Okay look Other M mishandled its gender elements to bluntly and came off hostile where it inserted a female lead and emphasized her gender as a point of characterization in a standard male space adventure plot like LockOut. At the least she should have had a pluck sidekick to play off more or more exploration of the new elements. Also all those thing are mostly ensembles. I mean a game where I can insert myself as a woman into the female character and it feels reflective and aiming of my fantasies and experiences. "
"I don't know does it really matter its a chicks hands holding the iron sights. I mean the game with te spy on morphine didn't sell and remember Mirror's Edge. Also Blackhawk Down and 24 didn't star women. Female characters great to immediately generate empathy and consideration but people hate the tragic and traumatic stuff we put dude characters through or view it as an attack on the gender."
"Most of that is you default to using women as objects to emphasize a certain emotional response. Trust your audience to empathise with the lady."
"Also her being a woman won't in and of itself expand her options beyond kill and sneak past."
"Uhm.. well maybe you might wanna change that
"ITS TOO HARD"
"Okay okay later. but look we've got like tons of female servicemen in Iraq and Afghanistan why not ease in with DLC or spinoff campagins of these gaurdwomen, patrolling for insurgents, scanning for terrorists, disarming IEDs, and end with a setpeice shootout at a.. uhm I don't know that sewing circle rhodey found in Iron Man 3"
"Hmmm.. okay at the least its not more maps and gives us a chance to expand our formula. ANd its attached to something that can sell"

Also "I want a female who's hardass" (which isn't that deep a reading) isn't a request by runout minority being oppressed but consumer who wants to be caterred to and rather specific. Akin to "change the ending of this game to satisfy me" which even when hands down its terrible really is going to come off as crappy.

Its also possible the market research is right, to a degree. Games headlining or starring females are on the decline and using market data reflects that. Also demanding gendered stories is... okay not bad but that's personal request for what you want, its not a demand for a universal good. If it is sell it for what it is and not on the negatives of current females who aren't written to be what you want.

Fair enough on the Anita part, but you're talking a lot about what she does, and topics I don't want to get into. Talking about feminism isn't my strong suit.

Not all women are feminists. Talking to them like they are is not always welcome, and kinda annoying at some points. I may be a "representative" of a group, but what I'm representing is not feminism.

Define "harm" here. Is harm only physical? Or is harm, emotional, mental, and/or spiritual? At what point is it okay to say "okay, this is getting harmful, lets talk about it?"

I am not telling an artist to do anything but make what they want to make. If an artist puts forth something I like, like making a Zelda game where you play as Zelda, then I'm going to support it.
http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/eiji-aonuma-would-consider-zelda-as-a-protagonist-depending-on-demand
"Demand" meaning how popular the idea is more than litteral assertive, aggressive demands.
That's not telling them to do anything they don't want to do since I'm not even sure they are going to make the game!
In fact I'm probably more with you on the point of artistic freedom than against you.
Like I said before, it's the outside forces warping artistic vision that grinds my gears.

That said, I do reserve the right to criticise things. If I don't like what someone is doing, I'm going to say it. An artist can make what game they want, but that doesn't make them immune to criticisms. If I don't lke it, I'm not going to buy it on top of that.
When it's a female protagonist game, and someone else kaboshes it in cancelling it or making the lead a guy, I definitely reserve the right to not like the decision.

Female protagonists are out of fashion? An interesting way to look at it, but the notion that they'll come back into fashion doesn't soothe me at all. So long as I feel deprived I'm going to speak up about it.

Good writing to me is pretty general. Agency, and variety. I might not like it all, but there's the potential I'll like some of it. It'll hopefully be a mixed bag like male protagonists. ... okay, bad example. Male protagonists definitely tend to stick to a portfolio of similar archetypes.
With a greater amount of female protagonists, in female only games I'll have better odds of finding characters I like.

The thing with FF13 for me is all the character switching initually. It's extremely off putting. I can't build much of an opinion on Lightning herself because I, personally, don't care for the game.
It's a wonderful luxury to pick and chose games you don't like when they would normally meet the criteria of a game you'd like. It's one I don't take for granted thanks to the rarity of games where you only play a female protagonist. Then agaiun FF13 doesn't really fit that does it? I've had to play as a guy or two on multiple occassions, and I get the feeling the spotlight is shared. Lightning isn't the hero of her own game it feels like. Not until Lightning Returns, and I'm hesitant to nail that one down as a female protagonist only game. Even then, from my understanding there's going to be a time limit in that game. I hate that mechanic.

It is partly "there are no games with female protagonists" in that there's so few of them, and there's some "conventional wisdom" out there that hampers these women from being produced, if they get produced at all, as my links shown.

Sure there are some games, but they're rare luxuries that get little publicity. As a person that hunts for them, even with friends that share the pursuit of finding them in particular I can safely tell you it's not easy keeping up with their releases.

With so few games I have less luxury in deciding I don't like a game. Some years, if I don't like a game with no female protagonist, I just don't get a new game with one in it.

With the glut of male protagonists in a wide variety of games it gets easy to be choosey about what you buy.
I don't know about you, but I imagine that with so many male protagonists it's easier to play as the rare female protagonists because one can always return to the comfort of playing as someone their own gender. They aren't forced to play as a woman, or barely game at all otherwise.

You do have a point in the matter of women not feeling welcome in gaming. With things like the links I provided going on, I know I don't feel all that wanted. Not only am I not being catered to, I'm actively being denied catering. No, not all the time, but well, when was the last time a male proptagonist was forcibly changed to a female protagonist, sent to the back cover in favor of showing a woman, had to be justified to exist, or told he couldn't have a romance option?

And I agree it's no secret anymore that there are women playing games. I've subscribed to more than a few on youtube. I also have about as many guys playing games subscribed to as well.
The Female Gamers I subscribed to also have a lot of other subscribers.

Funny you talk about icebreakers. Using feminism isn't much of an icebreaker either. At the least, not a good one. Sure it sparks debate, but is it the kind of debate that's desired?

The game industry needs to realize that they are never going to reach the plateu of CoD because CoD is there and there's no real room for anyone else. They need to start branching out now.
I don't particularly see Limbo as a plateu that's insurmountable, though. If there was ever an indie game out there that was king of the hill, I'd say it's minecraft. That's just me, though.

The dialogue in your post touches something that I have advocated. DLC/expansions, preferrably standalone, built on the framework of an existing game. Red Dead Redempion's undead nightmare, GTA IV's Libberty City Stories, Farcry 3's Blood Dragon, Infamous 2's vampire side story, Dynasty Warriors XL/Empires, etc. stand as examples of this sort of thing.
I wouldn't mind it too much if they took this route to add more female protagonists to the gaming world. Especially if it came with the lower prices these types of DLCs tend to. Especially if I didn't have to buy the game it's based off of.
They gaming industry would likely see an increase of units moved that might just offset the lower price presented.
Of course I see some being short sighted enough to make you buy the game the DLC is based off of, but all of the examples I listed do not require the game they're based off of, IIRC.
Honestly, Dynasty Warriors XL is generally a favorite example of mine as it often rewards you for having the original game by merging the two games like most normal DLCs merge with the base game, yet even without the original game you do get your money's worth IMO in a game ith new characters, and gameplay styles.

You'll have to note I don't specefy the personality of the sort of female character I want. That's because I don't just want hardasses, I want a variety of personalities. Raging warrior women wading into combat, demure women, intelligent women, moral women, immoral women, thugs, assassins, introspective women, professionals, unprofessionals, mothers, women who don't like/want children. There's a lot of well written NPC women that could have a decent spinoff game, imo.
I'd like it to not take decades to see a fair amount of these personalities in a female only protagonist game.

I'm pretty starved for variety in female only protagonist games.

You mention wanting her gender to matter. I bring up Other M. I take it you, like many, don't like it. I also mention more female characters won't change what they are doing, especially in popular AAA games. There won't be more socializing, talking it out, or navigating groups or institutions which is more thematic and front and center to female aimed works (Matlock versus Ally McBeal)
Before you go off NO not all women think like X but there is a trend. And VGs in general will have an issue breaking that trend. the deepening of characters with familial and societal context pushes us, *slowly*, to more females back in the forefront as who the character is as to the abilities they will grant will be more of thing and you can get instant empathy with a female character while males being the "default" gender me you're free to do something like Halo 4 to them and it not being against women in gaming
I admit Other M was flawed but the reaction and the themes and style of the reaction was well out of proportion and grotesque and sends one clear message even to me. Don't use or expand female characters as characters people will only bring their own gender politics with it AND punish and judge you for it so badly your game will flop. Samus should be a character not an icon and this game has dozens of little successes but because Adam is an authority figure who actually bosses you around and NOT evil people put on their minority warrior gear and savaged it.

Darmani:
You mention wanting her gender to matter. I bring up Other M. I take it you, like many, don't like it. I also mention more female characters won't change what they are doing, especially in popular AAA games. There won't be more socializing, talking it out, or navigating groups or institutions which is more thematic and front and center to female aimed works (Matlock versus Ally McBeal)
Before you go off NO not all women think like X but there is a trend. And VGs in general will have an issue breaking that trend. the deepening of characters with familial and societal context pushes us, *slowly*, to more females back in the forefront as who the character is as to the abilities they will grant will be more of thing and you can get instant empathy with a female character while males being the "default" gender me you're free to do something like Halo 4 to them and it not being against women in gaming
I admit Other M was flawed but the reaction and the themes and style of the reaction was well out of proportion and grotesque and sends one clear message even to me. Don't use or expand female characters as characters people will only bring their own gender politics with it AND punish and judge you for it so badly your game will flop. Samus should be a character not an icon and this game has dozens of little successes but because Adam is an authority figure who actually bosses you around and NOT evil people put on their minority warrior gear and savaged it.

I disagree. More female characters will bring change to what they're doing. That change will be the reduction of the opposition to female protagonists. Something I see as an extremely important first step. What comes after will come more naturlly. FPSes with female protagonists (maybe a perfect dark sequel/reboot), women with various amounts of depth of writing will appear, maybe a heavenly sword sequel/hack and slashes, parkour, asssassin games, stealth games, and generally a smattering of the sort of games guys already star in, plus agency to have intimate relationships they initiate while you play as them.

One less fear in development that something won't sell might embolden developers to be able to freely create things that people say don't sell? Horror games where you can't fight all that well, if at all? Point and clicks, even though Walking Dead shown that could work, and is already getting a sequel?

Maybe, just maybe there will be a boom of increased revenue as welcomed women join in on buying games in earnest?

But seriously, I'm not expecting some grand gaming rennaissance out of this.

I'm not looking for some far reaching changes to society or anything, here, though with more female protagonists the complaints about female representation will prolly spread out more, and lose focus. People will have more general opinions on female protagonists in games because there will be many directions for them to go.

So long as the gaming industry lives in fear of doing things outside of the status quo, the industry will not mature. It will not grow. Infact, judging by the way things are going, it'll reach a gaming crash. It'll be a disaster. It won't die, per say, as people will strive to keep it on life support, but it'll be nearly wiped out.

The Other M's reaction might have been smaller if she had some real, and more numerous, possibly well known competiition. Don't get me wrong, there would have been a reaction what with her being the longest running series with a female only protagonist being roughly 30 years old, but it might not have been so focused on if she weren't the nail that stuck up the most.

Darmani:
You mention wanting her gender to matter. I bring up Other M. I take it you, like many, don't like it. I also mention more female characters won't change what they are doing, especially in popular AAA games. There won't be more socializing, talking it out, or navigating groups or institutions which is more thematic and front and center to female aimed works (Matlock versus Ally McBeal)
Before you go off NO not all women think like X but there is a trend. And VGs in general will have an issue breaking that trend. the deepening of characters with familial and societal context pushes us, *slowly*, to more females back in the forefront as who the character is as to the abilities they will grant will be more of thing and you can get instant empathy with a female character while males being the "default" gender me you're free to do something like Halo 4 to them and it not being against women in gaming
I admit Other M was flawed but the reaction and the themes and style of the reaction was well out of proportion and grotesque and sends one clear message even to me. Don't use or expand female characters as characters people will only bring their own gender politics with it AND punish and judge you for it so badly your game will flop. Samus should be a character not an icon and this game has dozens of little successes but because Adam is an authority figure who actually bosses you around and NOT evil people put on their minority warrior gear and savaged it.

So i take you didn't read the blog did you?

Also, just like everyone else, you keep assuming that Samus had NO character to fuck over, and the new "character" is welcome since there was nothing to lose by doing so. And you are dead wrong for it.

The devil is in the details my friend. And for a series inspired by Cinema, attention to detail and visual storytelling did more for the whole series and Samus character than a dry monologue would EVER do.

Its about nerdy stuff like this that set people off, they just want consistency to what was presented in previous games. If this were a new character out of the blue without a backstory to fuck up, no one would bat an eye on it. Case in point, the freeware game: IJI. (Thought it deals more with an innocent girl struck in a war scenario and dealing with PTSD, rather than dealing with what it means to be a woman.)

Metroid Other M is THAT kind of game that deserves academy study JUST for the sheer amount of detail that went into making Samus a complete opposite person. Each shot actually has a purpose for this. But if making the most famous Super Heroine of gaming into an submissive bitch wasn't enough, the other females (Samus and 2 others) are equally useless to the plot and they are not even allowed to solve their problems themselves, so its not like there ISN'T a pattern to the sexist argument. Its all over the place.

A similar case happened to Mass Effect 3. People (as in the journalists and the unwashed masses) assumed that they don't wanted Male Shep to be gay cause homophobia and shit, when in reality (where WE live in and the rest of you have to yet catch up) this portrayal is inconsistent with established lore, character, and even announcement of the developers themselves. Proof?:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/shepard-is-heterosexual-by-choice

That announcement existed before ME2 was released. And its one of the many many many many many things that the developers forgot they promised to the audience.

Maybe if the unwashed masses (and the journalist that feeds them) actually do their jobs for once, they would notice that the "vocal minority" actually has a fucking point and facts, not opinions, believe it or not.

Literally laughed out loud on two separate occasions, and now I shall bring into conversation "Legendary Zelda" and "elegant nipples".

JellySlimerMan:

Darmani:
You mention wanting her gender to matter. I bring up Other M. I take it you, like many, don't like it. I also mention more female characters won't change what they are doing, especially in popular AAA games. There won't be more socializing, talking it out, or navigating groups or institutions which is more thematic and front and center to female aimed works (Matlock versus Ally McBeal)
Before you go off NO not all women think like X but there is a trend. And VGs in general will have an issue breaking that trend. the deepening of characters with familial and societal context pushes us, *slowly*, to more females back in the forefront as who the character is as to the abilities they will grant will be more of thing and you can get instant empathy with a female character while males being the "default" gender me you're free to do something like Halo 4 to them and it not being against women in gaming
I admit Other M was flawed but the reaction and the themes and style of the reaction was well out of proportion and grotesque and sends one clear message even to me. Don't use or expand female characters as characters people will only bring their own gender politics with it AND punish and judge you for it so badly your game will flop. Samus should be a character not an icon and this game has dozens of little successes but because Adam is an authority figure who actually bosses you around and NOT evil people put on their minority warrior gear and savaged it.

So i take you didn't read the blog did you?

Also, just like everyone else, you keep assuming that Samus had NO character to fuck over, and the new "character" is welcome since there was nothing to lose by doing so. And you are dead wrong for it.

The devil is in the details my friend. And for a series inspired by Cinema, attention to detail and visual storytelling did more for the whole series and Samus character than a dry monologue would EVER do.

Its about nerdy stuff like this that set people off, they just want consistency to what was presented in previous games. If this were a new character out of the blue without a backstory to fuck up, no one would bat an eye on it. Case in point, the freeware game: IJI. (Thought it deals more with an innocent girl struck in a war scenario and dealing with PTSD, rather than dealing with what it means to be a woman.)

Metroid Other M is THAT kind of game that deserves academy study JUST for the sheer amount of detail that went into making Samus a complete opposite person. Each shot actually has a purpose for this. But if making the most famous Super Heroine of gaming into an submissive bitch wasn't enough, the other females (Samus and 2 others) are equally useless to the plot and they are not even allowed to solve their problems themselves, so its not like there ISN'T a pattern to the sexist argument. Its all over the place.

A similar case happened to Mass Effect 3. People (as in the journalists and the unwashed masses) assumed that they don't wanted Male Shep to be gay cause homophobia and shit, when in reality (where WE live in and the rest of you have to yet catch up) this portrayal is inconsistent with established lore, character, and even announcement of the developers themselves. Proof?:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/shepard-is-heterosexual-by-choice

That announcement existed before ME2 was released. And its one of the many many many many many things that the developers forgot they promised to the audience.

Maybe if the unwashed masses (and the journalist that feeds them) actually do their jobs for once, they would notice that the "vocal minority" actually has a fucking point and facts, not opinions, believe it or not.

I am familiar with Korval's blog. But it starts from an assumption of Samus character when this set out to define it. This was rejected because... it wasn't as appealling by what was made before with the sop excuse and newbies wouldn't get it.
Funny I was new to metroid, I mostly got it. I saw it had flaws but liked it. It didn't despite what butthurt fans keep saying "throw out" Metroid Prime so much as de-emphasized that part.
The problem is fans of Samus came to the conclusion, on their own, Samus having maternal feelings for the baby was bad. I can put to fanfic and other articles indicating this. For the most part she was blank as a character with lots of ideas built around her coming to a consensus with minor input from the author. The author sought to redefine the character along lines he felt more comfortable with and started by focusing on Samus's most distinct trait her gender and famous relationshop with the Metroid hatchling that bonded to her and saved her life.
He used this as a means to redefine the character. WE KNEW THIS WAS COMING YOUR FANFICS WILL BE RUINED

And the butthurt and nerdrage was glorious Some of it valid
I forget her name but the reviewer from G4's Xplay who was deluged in hate mail (not cool nintendo fans, we owe her an apology) pointed out it forced an icon into a story about proving herself. As many women in gaming at every level were going through this hazing being forced to witness this with their hero was unacceptable and the backlash was harsh
This didn't make it correct, ignores that "proving herself" was ultimately to herself and she reasserted herself the whole time. I was there folks. People rejected everything and the quick use of "The Baby" as a meme or that annoying microwave beam gotta make breakfast for Adam gif was ridiculous. Having an acceptable way to validate this bitchiness internet fandom screamed sexism
The shooting mechnics SEXISM.
Lack of exploration SEXISM.
No scanning SEKISM.
Game breaking glitch Sectsimem
Samus taking orders from the highest ranking officer of the army who's property it was on the scene. In tense situaiton like exploring a likely compromised vessel for survivors after proven damaged and infested with enemies? SEXISM
Samus having PTSD flashback for 40 seconds while she's attacked in 2:30 cutscene performing all sorts of flips and shots and screwing up the resolve to reactivate suit in midair while being crushed by giant spacedragon SEXISM (according to Korval the hero is Anthony... uhm yep the guy knocked aside is the hero)
Adam telling you what to do and expecting it done without justifying his orders to you (well actually he did and later we know WHY he's being secretive AND distant) SEXISM
Ridley is a redherrring SEXISM
Motherhood as a theme SEXISM
The Baby SEXISM

Yay for gender equality it validates and replaces any need for criticism. Its why so many years later I defend the game even when, oh yeah, its flawed. But its a flaw of execution and disparate expectations of Samus by fans as a whole (toon link all over again) and protagonists in scifi shooters with military bent (She's not starbuck or the guys from Resistance where authority against her is proven flawed and tedious?)
Korval can recognize this when he takes the piss out of ATLA but not Other M? We have little to talk about and isn't a defense.

Since when was feminist a swear word?
I'm a feminist, and I have a penis. I have watched the Feminist Frequency blogs, I kinda prefer Nostalgia Chick as she's less moralistic, but Anita does have a lot of good points (And I find that she does a lot of videos in a flannel shirt hilarious). And is fighting for general equality, with what affects her being at the forefront. Totally understandable.

Having a penis shouldn't preclude you from playing with dolls and wearing dresses. Having a vagina should not preclude you from building forts.

Duke Nukem isn't offensive because of its content. Duke Nukem is offensive because the content reflects the lack of equality in our world.

Fix the world, the games become harmless.

Rebel_Raven:

Darmani:
*snipped as I remember what I said*

I disagree. More female characters will bring change to what they're doing. That change will be the reduction of the opposition to female protagonists. Something I see as an extremely important first step. What comes after will come more naturlly. FPSes with female protagonists (maybe a perfect dark sequel/reboot), women with various amounts of depth of writing will appear, maybe a heavenly sword sequel/hack and slashes, parkour, asssassin games, stealth games, and generally a smattering of the sort of games guys already star in, plus agency to have intimate relationships they initiate while you play as them.

A lot of relationships aren't initiated by players *now.* The stories had designated love interests (Pandora's Tower) or multiple possible appealing females (OoT) that may or may not become love interests (Valkyria Chronicles, Bioware, otome games).
Okay but point the thing is we're kind of already there its just a matter of expansion.

Personally I think female characters, especially if "gender matters" as you've requested, aren't going to work outside an ensemble piece. Just like dudes fall for babes in bikinis, explosions, and narratives where "they are the one the only one" in whatever context ladies seem to like games where they have character that has a social or interactive context. Okay not as petty a drive as the girl in bikini but it is a thing. Even in TTRPGs this is practically standard for "so you're having or want to have female players in your group" this is advice 101. Give them some respect, eliminate elements that feel hostile or unwelcoming, put a wasketbasket next to the toilet and clean the bathroom, and make sure you have a social aspect or forum and ability to resolve conflicts that way in your game.
All those things will help make females more welcome and more participatory in gaming even if they always play fighter jocks.

Even ignoring that.. what about sports and driving games? Shooters its gotten criminal espeically with all the modes and body hopping and in police procedurals female characters have long become accepted and even standarized and played by Michelle Rodriguez 3 out of 5 times. But how do you put a female protagonist in other genres where they aren't just rare by virtue of lack of use but genuinely out of place.

One less fear in development that something won't sell might embolden developers to be able to freely create things that people say don't sell? Horror games where you can't fight all that well, if at all? Point and clicks, even though Walking Dead shown that could work, and is already getting a sequel?

Maybe, just maybe there will be a boom of increased revenue as welcomed women join in on buying games in earnest?

Doubtful gaming sale's "decline" is due to the greying of the market and grouping thanks to internet. Don't by half a dozen titles to fill up your hours between classes or part-time job buy the latest CoD for the year plus DLC to play it with your friends from school, college, or just acquaintances from work between your 40-60 work week, gym, taxes, bills, and parenthood. Making Halo and CoD more female friendly (and they've started note the ads and marketing) might do more than putting out more females as single protagonists in games. Also gendering a story can backfire and likely requires more...preparation in the creation process earlier in the design phase. Also there is the whole "Okay this game is about like black ops from Kennedy to Reagan" and a female protagonist may feel out of place for the iconic and basic story they are telling.
In terms of free time eating who suffers more male or females as they grow up and get families and jobs? Moreover of this social freetime just how acceptable is shooting as general rule?

Not one of my usually needling questions I don't know.

Again there are women gamers. But how many of you and your girlfriends go "what the hell, we have a spare 70 minutes let's get on Xbox live and get a deathmatch going" and that is an overall neutral and inclusive activity, not planned or just for me, Jenny, and Natasha (sorry about the names I suck at naming). Versus say guys who can likely get on the horn or with their coworkers and do the same as an opening icebreaker or no commitment no judgement thing. Honest question I know its *changing* and again there are female gamers even shooter, FPS, folks. But as a general baseline event is that more of thing? Not to stereotype but I thought it was more female gamers into RPGs, action adventure games, single player, ryhthm, party, MMORPGs (built in social and artistic elements) and so , and yeah recent increase in fighters I think are more of thing.

But seriously, I'm not expecting some grand gaming rennaissance out of this.

Okay but the issue is if there isn't solid money and risk of loss of money AND face from deviating from the tried and true just on mechanical progression and story (many games play out like B level movies). My main theme is the most popular game of the moment is the dudebro shooter. Making the guy who holds the gun a woman will likely NOT have the positive impact you have requested (she won't be more noticeably visible for one and agency in these things is nonexistant its just that it follows an accepted male leaning narrative we don't notice... would Pvt Soap make a good female for you?)

I'm not looking for some far reaching changes to society or anything, here, though with more female protagonists the complaints about female representation will prolly spread out more, and lose focus. People will have more general opinions on female protagonists in games because there will be many directions for them to go.

Agreed. I think they already have them from the last cycle of prominence and I think with the deepening of characters and their relation to the setting in general coming or already here (again with the Femmesheppe and Lightning and even other m Samus to a degree, note Lara Croft is back, we just had Remember Me, and picking your gender is more and more prevalent). Its just now we're on the war story MP cycle and once that's knocked out then gender variation will be on the rise but not before we get sick of shooting everything. And given the response to Bioshock Infinite (another game I really think couldn't have hoped to work with a female protagonist... so Booker DeWitt.. female pinkerton agent, self hating mixed blooded american, possible mother of pseudo mormonism, baby seller, drunk, gambler, and genocidal slaughterer sound like what you're in for?).

So long as the gaming industry lives in fear of doing things outside of the status quo, the industry will not mature. It will not grow. Infact, judging by the way things are going, it'll reach a gaming crash. It'll be a disaster. It won't die, per say, as people will strive to keep it on life support, but it'll be nearly wiped out.

I don't think there will be life support. I think Moviebob is right. As an industry or set set of entertainment video gaming is too big to fail. At best even if Sony, MS, and Nintendo tank we have the whole iOS and Android market and GoG to keep the history and Steam to keep trying what works. The fear of outside the status quo is founded though. I'm honestly struggling how to convey the same experience of Modern Warfare with a female lead but NOT do the hated GI Jane plot that got Other M part of its lambasting. Moreover Modern Warfare taps into so much going on with us right now as thin as it does...I think the DLC concept I pitched was the best I got.
I'm reminded when gay comic fans wanted more representation and they certainly didn't mean for this. Because the modern male character in videogames goes through some brutal shit and when Lara Croft was shown doing so accusations of misogyny and wailing about discomfort with the images and material flew even when the context made sense (a pirate attempting to rape a captive! NEVER!!!)
That said I agree for diversity. I just think wait you'll get more women in gaming and on gaming covers. But I don't think it will satisfy your fundamental dissatisfaction (shooting galleries, etc) or result in something like today (Is she going to look like Robin in Arkham City)

The Other M's reaction might have been smaller if she had some real, and more numerous, possibly well known competiition. Don't get me wrong, there would have been a reaction what with her being the longest running series with a female only protagonist being roughly 30 years old, but it might not have been so focused on if she weren't the nail that stuck up the most.

Again I think they took the right risk making her a character first not an icon (see Yatzhee's mocking of Mario versus Luigi for how that can end up, heck look at Princess Peach who's gotten more And MORE inoffensive and bubbly). There are some questionable points. And deserved criticism. the lady from G4's issue about Samus not having to prove herself, valid complaint. I still think its wrong but valid. But the sexism as accusation for all faults got out of hand and gave the game and its voice actress a reputation undeserved. That the solution was Jennifer Hale and Retro Studios makes me want to produce snakes from my mouth when people go "we don't just want hardass superbeing you're misinterpreting me" because that's what Hale does and is most known for thanks to Femmesheppe and her other Bioware roles and that's what the Prime Cycle following PC gaming trends alluded to.

All that said I want more women in video games. I like the diversity but at the same time they are there so I think its better for female gamers to be more specific in what they want catered to them. No gatekeeping, okay. But that's specific, the argument is specific. The experiences are specific. My most defense is there is an issue to be and non"you're a pig" reasons (and approaches) had but gatekeeping is still over all wrong. With females as protagonists...I think really its a matter of waiting and looking. Fairytale; Wet; Mirror's Edge; FFXIII-1,2,3; Fable; Metroid; DOA; Okami, Nancy Drew. And even if not as headliners playable female characters as general picks and alts or just filling the cast in Blazblu and other fighting games is more and more a thing. (Shinobu in NMH2)
Its why I have such negativity for the argument of the lack of females in gaming. Its translating more you're not the most prominent in the most popular games in gaming and only for a time because we see an increase. I think it oversimplifies what is going on and enables more outrage than actual analysis and discussion
Even where there is a valid complaint or some serious questions to prepare us for (again with what do females in gaming have to be to be satisfying to that wide untapped female audience)
You mention minecraft in response to my fictional dialogue. I just want to point out if that is so how could you make the next minecraft and make it MORE welcoming to female players? It just seems with some genre too risky, not worth the effort, and with others redundant, in that it won't make a difference in appeal in either respects.

At times I wonder if I should read such long winded wall o text replies... But then I am reminded that this is the internet. And they're more for masturbation than changing the world.

Darmani:

Rebel_Raven:

Darmani:
*snipped as I remember what I said*

I disagree. More female characters will bring change to what they're doing. That change will be the reduction of the opposition to female protagonists. Something I see as an extremely important first step. What comes after will come more naturlly. FPSes with female protagonists (maybe a perfect dark sequel/reboot), women with various amounts of depth of writing will appear, maybe a heavenly sword sequel/hack and slashes, parkour, asssassin games, stealth games, and generally a smattering of the sort of games guys already star in, plus agency to have intimate relationships they initiate while you play as them.

A lot of relationships aren't initiated by players *now.* The stories had designated love interests (Pandora's Tower) or multiple possible appealing females (OoT) that may or may not become love interests (Valkyria Chronicles, Bioware, otome games).
Okay but point the thing is we're kind of already there its just a matter of expansion.

Personally I think female characters, especially if "gender matters" as you've requested, aren't going to work outside an ensemble piece. Just like dudes fall for babes in bikinis, explosions, and narratives where "they are the one the only one" in whatever context ladies seem to like games where they have character that has a social or interactive context. Okay not as petty a drive as the girl in bikini but it is a thing. Even in TTRPGs this is practically standard for "so you're having or want to have female players in your group" this is advice 101. Give them some respect, eliminate elements that feel hostile or unwelcoming, put a wasketbasket next to the toilet and clean the bathroom, and make sure you have a social aspect or forum and ability to resolve conflicts that way in your game.
All those things will help make females more welcome and more participatory in gaming even if they always play fighter jocks.

Even ignoring that.. what about sports and driving games? Shooters its gotten criminal espeically with all the modes and body hopping and in police procedurals female characters have long become accepted and even standarized and played by Michelle Rodriguez 3 out of 5 times. But how do you put a female protagonist in other genres where they aren't just rare by virtue of lack of use but genuinely out of place.

A lot of male protagonists get to initiate relationships in games.
Kratos had a wife, and daughter, and gets orgies in pretty much every game he's in!
Nathan Drake has love interests.
Niko Bellic has optional dates in GTA IV. Pretty sure he's not alone in that series.
Wei Shen in Sleeping dogs has optional relationships.
There's a long list of guys out there that go on quests because their wife and/or kid are in peril, or their girlfriends are.
Even in games where women get to have relationships, the PoV is at times changed to a guy, and they're the ones really initiating it. I'm hard pressed to think of the reverse of that.
When was the last time a game company told a developer they could -not- have the guy have a relationship?

Lara Croft had do love interests, and Nilin was actively denied one.

I agree respecting women is the way to get them involved, but that doesn't mean making them unappealing to guys, and one must be careful to not make them unappealing to anyone.
As much as Bayonetta took flak for her style, some people, women among them, like Bayonetta.

You seem under the mitaken impression that to have female protagonists, you must have a dialogue rich game for it to work. While it might help, it's not the end all, or be all.
There's female gun enthusiasts out there that may enjoy shooters.
There's women who like cars that might enjoy racing games. A female driver could be awesome.
Sports games? Women can like sports, too. Fantasy sports have contained weomen in the past, and don't have to rely on real teams.
Women are people. You can't necessarily constrain their preferrences any more than you can for guys. Women aren't limited to liking certain sorts of games.

Thinking of women, and men in stereotypical boxes is what caused this mess to begin with.

Also, I absolutely adore Michelle Rodriguez. It is a bit of a shame she's typecast as the tough girl, but she sure can pull it off.

One less fear in development that something won't sell might embolden developers to be able to freely create things that people say don't sell? Horror games where you can't fight all that well, if at all? Point and clicks, even though Walking Dead shown that could work, and is already getting a sequel?

Maybe, just maybe there will be a boom of increased revenue as welcomed women join in on buying games in earnest?

Doubtful gaming sale's "decline" is due to the greying of the market and grouping thanks to internet. Don't by half a dozen titles to fill up your hours between classes or part-time job buy the latest CoD for the year plus DLC to play it with your friends from school, college, or just acquaintances from work between your 40-60 work week, gym, taxes, bills, and parenthood. Making Halo and CoD more female friendly (and they've started note the ads and marketing) might do more than putting out more females as single protagonists in games. Also gendering a story can backfire and likely requires more...preparation in the creation process earlier in the design phase. Also there is the whole "Okay this game is about like black ops from Kennedy to Reagan" and a female protagonist may feel out of place for the iconic and basic story they are telling.
In terms of free time eating who suffers more male or females as they grow up and get families and jobs? Moreover of this social freetime just how acceptable is shooting as general rule?

Not one of my usually needling questions I don't know.

Again there are women gamers. But how many of you and your girlfriends go "what the hell, we have a spare 70 minutes let's get on Xbox live and get a deathmatch going" and that is an overall neutral and inclusive activity, not planned or just for me, Jenny, and Natasha (sorry about the names I suck at naming). Versus say guys who can likely get on the horn or with their coworkers and do the same as an opening icebreaker or no commitment no judgement thing. Honest question I know its *changing* and again there are female gamers even shooter, FPS, folks. But as a general baseline event is that more of thing? Not to stereotype but I thought it was more female gamers into RPGs, action adventure games, single player, ryhthm, party, MMORPGs (built in social and artistic elements) and so , and yeah recent increase in fighters I think are more of thing.

I never meant to imply that removing women from the equasion was the sole cause of gaming's financial woes, but I can imagine it playing a part in it. If women spending more on games could help the situation, but the industry is not trying to reach out to them, then it's the gaming industry's fault.

My significant other and I do, often sit down and game for an hour easy. It may not be deathmatches, but we have played Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, Dead Island, Minecraft, Rainbow Six Vegas 1 and 2, borderlands 1, little big planet, Red Dead Redemption, Civilization Revolution, Monster Hunter, Resident evil outbreat 1 2 and 5, and a great many other games with a preferrence for, but not exclusively co-op.
We even tried out Dust (a shooter based on the Eve universe), my SO also played Eve a while.
You can imagine we're diverse gamers, eh?

I mainsly stick to consoles, though since a Wii U is a stronger system than my laptop, and I have a great deal of preference for consoles for assorted reasons.

But seriously, I'm not expecting some grand gaming rennaissance out of this.

Okay but the issue is if there isn't solid money and risk of loss of money AND face from deviating from the tried and true just on mechanical progression and story (many games play out like B level movies). My main theme is the most popular game of the moment is the dudebro shooter. Making the guy who holds the gun a woman will likely NOT have the positive impact you have requested (she won't be more noticeably visible for one and agency in these things is nonexistant its just that it follows an accepted male leaning narrative we don't notice... would Pvt Soap make a good female for you?)

Sure, people might be mad if they made a CoD/MW where a woman held the gun, but what if they made it epic enough that the story the woman is in made up for it?

So long as if they atleast tried to live up to the standards of the rest of the series, yes, Pvt. Soap as a female soldier would be fine. People buy CoD, and MW generally knowing what they're getting. Expecting more, or settleing for less just won't fly too well.

I'm not looking for some far reaching changes to society or anything, here, though with more female protagonists the complaints about female representation will prolly spread out more, and lose focus. People will have more general opinions on female protagonists in games because there will be many directions for them to go.

Agreed. I think they already have them from the last cycle of prominence and I think with the deepening of characters and their relation to the setting in general coming or already here (again with the Femmesheppe and Lightning and even other m Samus to a degree, note Lara Croft is back, we just had Remember Me, and picking your gender is more and more prevalent). Its just now we're on the war story MP cycle and once that's knocked out then gender variation will be on the rise but not before we get sick of shooting everything. And given the response to Bioshock Infinite (another game I really think couldn't have hoped to work with a female protagonist... so Booker DeWitt.. female pinkerton agent, self hating mixed blooded american, possible mother of pseudo mormonism, baby seller, drunk, gambler, and genocidal slaughterer sound like what you're in for?).

[/quote]
I don't really believe there's things resembling phases in videogame wants. Just people making something, and if it sells well, other people glom onto it. I don't believe it'll go out of fashion until the unlikely event these stop selling, or they believe it won't sell.
Waiting these thigs out may well be folly.

Yes, we got Remember Me, but how did you hear about this game? Did you see a TV commercial for it?
Personally I saw next to no advertisement of the game, and a lot of that was the controversy, and some game event vids. Moreover I've seen a lot of people asking what the game was on facebook via the comments section on videos, and what not. If it fails, I'd say a good part of it was the simple fact not enough people knew it exists. The rest may not have had their standards lived up to.

Tomb Raider got a few commercials, and they were largely attached to Gamestop, but the commercials came and went in an astoundingly short amount of time.

As for the Booker type of character, having played Saints Row 2 I can safely say I was a genocidal, drunk, gambling woman in game, and I even got wasted on drugs more than once, and was quite the criminal, and tap danced over the event horizon into villainy. If the drugs and alcohol were in Saiknts Row 3, I would've screwed around with them in that game, too. So that's everything but the religious part, and the baby selling part. That said, I'd be down for a female protagonist that had those 2 parts added.

Like I said, I like variety, and I want variety. That includes good traits, and bad traits.

So long as the gaming industry lives in fear of doing things outside of the status quo, the industry will not mature. It will not grow. Infact, judging by the way things are going, it'll reach a gaming crash. It'll be a disaster. It won't die, per say, as people will strive to keep it on life support, but it'll be nearly wiped out.

I don't think there will be life support. I think Moviebob is right. As an industry or set set of entertainment video gaming is too big to fail. At best even if Sony, MS, and Nintendo tank we have the whole iOS and Android market and GoG to keep the history and Steam to keep trying what works. The fear of outside the status quo is founded though. I'm honestly struggling how to convey the same experience of Modern Warfare with a female lead but NOT do the hated GI Jane plot that got Other M part of its lambasting. Moreover Modern Warfare taps into so much going on with us right now as thin as it does...I think the DLC concept I pitched was the best I got.
I'm reminded when gay comic fans wanted more representation and they certainly didn't mean for this. Because the modern male character in videogames goes through some brutal shit and when Lara Croft was shown doing so accusations of misogyny and wailing about discomfort with the images and material flew even when the context made sense (a pirate attempting to rape a captive! NEVER!!!)
That said I agree for diversity. I just think wait you'll get more women in gaming and on gaming covers. But I don't think it will satisfy your fundamental dissatisfaction (shooting galleries, etc) or result in something like today (Is she going to look like Robin in Arkham City)

Well, considering that there was some 125 game developers out there, and now we're down to 1/5th that, plus so many game companies are going bankrupt especially in recent times, all the jabs at anti-piracy/DRM, pleas to buy games twice, crazed eagerness to get the CoD bucks to the point where games feel like they sell their souls, offputting DLC practices, and all the other ways they try and make money besides actually selling their games kinda points to a faltering system. How bad it gets remains to be seen, but it may get worse.

I think it's kinda simple on how to make a story of a female soldier. Respect it. Let her do her job. Don't skimp any more than you would a guy.
If the plot is epic enough, people are going to overlook the fact the protagonist is a woman.

Best you have, or not, I agree that a DLC approach could be viable.

Having played through Tomb Raider from start to finish, then a second helping to get 100% I can see where the rape thing might have come from, as it lingered a bit uncomfortably on one scene, but failing the scene after is just a straight up death. And as bad as that scene looks, it's a pivotal one in Lara's life if you get through it.

You're misreading me. I know this much because of what you say later in the thread. My fundamental dissatisfaction is the lack of female protagonists, and the people that try to prevent their existance, and attack their agency.

The Other M's reaction might have been smaller if she had some real, and more numerous, possibly well known competiition. Don't get me wrong, there would have been a reaction what with her being the longest running series with a female only protagonist being roughly 30 years old, but it might not have been so focused on if she weren't the nail that stuck up the most.

Again I think they took the right risk making her a character first not an icon (see Yatzhee's mocking of Mario versus Luigi for how that can end up, heck look at Princess Peach who's gotten more And MORE inoffensive and bubbly). There are some questionable points. And deserved criticism. the lady from G4's issue about Samus not having to prove herself, valid complaint. I still think its wrong but valid. But the sexism as accusation for all faults got out of hand and gave the game and its voice actress a reputation undeserved. That the solution was Jennifer Hale and Retro Studios makes me want to produce snakes from my mouth when people go "we don't just want hardass superbeing you're misinterpreting me" because that's what Hale does and is most known for thanks to Femmesheppe and her other Bioware roles and that's what the Prime Cycle following PC gaming trends alluded to.

All that said I want more women in video games. I like the diversity but at the same time they are there so I think its better for female gamers to be more specific in what they want catered to them. No gatekeeping, okay. But that's specific, the argument is specific. The experiences are specific. My most defense is there is an issue to be and non"you're a pig" reasons (and approaches) had but gatekeeping is still over all wrong. With females as protagonists...I think really its a matter of waiting and looking. Fairytale; Wet; Mirror's Edge; FFXIII-1,2,3; Fable; Metroid; DOA; Okami, Nancy Drew. And even if not as headliners playable female characters as general picks and alts or just filling the cast in Blazblu and other fighting games is more and more a thing. (Shinobu in NMH2)
Its why I have such negativity for the argument of the lack of females in gaming. Its translating more you're not the most prominent in the most popular games in gaming and only for a time because we see an increase. I think it oversimplifies what is going on and enables more outrage than actual analysis and discussion
Even where there is a valid complaint or some serious questions to prepare us for (again with what do females in gaming have to be to be satisfying to that wide untapped female audience)
You mention minecraft in response to my fictional dialogue. I just want to point out if that is so how could you make the next minecraft and make it MORE welcoming to female players? It just seems with some genre too risky, not worth the effort, and with others redundant, in that it won't make a difference in appeal in either respects.

Princess peach got more inoffensive? That's arguable. In Super Princess Peach she battled her enemies, and solved puzzles with wild mood swings, and was on a quest for the "vibe sceptor" with the implications it's the sort of thing that makes mothers happy.
I admit this video
http://youtu.be/e_xbSMK390s
is a bit of overanalyzation, but it pretty much backs up the implication that Princess Peach is fighting her enemies with massive mood swings, and is on the hunt for a what's essentially a vibrator.
I'm not exactly hopping mad, enraged, or particularly offended, but I am kinda dissapoiunted it went that way, and more inoffensive isn't exactly the word I'd use.
Stacked with Other M, and http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=252 (granted it's a joke) I worry for Nintendo's next female hero.

Yeah, I have most of the games you mentioned. Do keep in mind that some of them aren't female protagonist only games.
It can feel like an eternity between game releases, and I actively hunt, and look for games with female only protagonists. I get what I prefer most coz I can't afford them all at times. Mind you that's not so much out of a year's release as several years of releases. It's nowhere near as bountiful as male options. Some years I didn't even get a new game with a female protagonist.

You understood my problems with women just being supporting NPCs. The case is similar for fighting games, too.

I don't have anything against voice actors. It is a sad fact they do get type cast so it's harder to get the sort of roles other than what they're known for, though. Hale's career as a tough girl voice actor isn't limited to Femmeshep. She's sort of what Michelle Rodriguez is to tough women in movies as far as Voice Actors go. It's not rearlly her fault she's typecast, and she has to work.

Feeling negative about this sort of talk is fine. I don't hold it against you. At least you're willing to talk about it as opposed to shouting down your opposition, or ignoring it.

It's not so much a matter that women aren't in the most popular games, it's that those that are out there are easy to not know about and having to research and dig for them is annoying, they're being prevented from being made, and their agency is being reduced.

It's an oversimplification because, to me, it's a very simple matter. Producers, and developers need to stop treating female protagonists, and their agency poorly. At least compared to male protagonists, and male agency.

How would minecraft be more welcoming to women? Have a default woman skin next to Steve, and a woman's voice for grunts by default. Not terribly hard, imo. I wouldn't be too surprised if they've already done it.
The modding community's made a lot of nice female skins, and minecraft is fairly popular with women. I only mentioned it in being more popular than Limbo, IIRC.

I don't think making female the immediate star of CoD will make anyone mad. Not initially. I think it will be deeply unsatisfying for your request of females in games. And feel out of place because of response likely to be elicitted from the audience, more later. Mostly the FPS star is an empty vessel we don't see following the words of a voice over a radio shooting things. I don't see how it will satisfy one of your stated goals for variety and representation if that "character" is a female.

It should be noted in that game EVERYONE used emotions to get powers. Peach could control hers.. well the player could. Also the idea of "emotion keyed" powers is far from female only. Harry Potter for a quick example. Also we've had yoshi's get power from eating for a while so...while I can get the implications they seem more cheeky for a cartoon then offensive. Also I think --- Mama... okay the real offensive it was science papa more than anything but before that comic came out we had Cooking AND Education Mama. And really I have to wonder why those spinoffs didn't happen.. okay Doctor Mama would just be Trauma Center, Educated Mama a little redundant but Business/Executive Mama seemed a rather offensive missed step. And business/sim games were in (at least there is a niche as Eve proves).

I'm not a fan of "agency" as an arguing point. The point in Bioshock.. all of them is the struggle of and lack of agnecy. This is even the thing in God of War (okay got me there with the choose your partner thing).

With female characters I think the pitfalls will outweigh the possible gains. Again pointing to Tomb Raider. I think its rather silly in similar situations *guys* aren't threatened with sexual assault, in that one it made perfect sense. But it stirred more negative press and contraversy than Jackie Maa likely dating bad girls. We get really sensitive about females and more judgemental.
Booker DeWitt maintains our sympathy and consideration as a hero we follow, his death is a sacrifice and a tragedy. His flaws endear us to seem him overcome them. His crossing the line is really meant to be him selling his kid.
Could that same level of empathy but lack of shock or hatred to the game or its creators come to pass if Dewitt was female? It would more likely be taken as a statement of women as a whole. A point to this is how people objected to rabid popular coup women Daisy Fitzroy leading public executions when she worked by raising anger, promised vengance, and pursued a revolt by means of arms. That it became a reign of terror was *duh* that this was going to be More Dredd Scott or the Bolsheviks was perfectly sane. But still the largest criticisms aren't Booker's dissolute character but the villification of Fitzroy and the Vox Populi when BOTH are underdogs.

I don't mean to imply you want to play a goody two shoes. I think more you want to play Captain Kirk, in particular 2009 reboot Captain Kirk and won't get that from Female Pvt Soap or Female Booker DeWitt. Given how rare these stories and depth are (and STILL found wanting) and don't fit, or I propose they don't, how could one do. And hope for "epic enough" is a little vague as "strong female character" or "good writing" The only box I put the theoritcal female in is that of the pre-existing male protagonist.

Speaking of...
The large appeal of sports games is another way to be a fan or engage in the culture of sports teams and celebrities. You get to own and run the mariners, Peyton manning follows your play, etc. I didn't mean to say females don't like sports. Actually the opposite. I assume as fans of sports...why would they want or expect or put in female players? Do we then focus on the other sports or leagues with more women? Wasn't there a try for a WNBA game and it.. didn't do so well?
How much do games with original or nonlicensed stars sell? I thought there was a very specific appeal being packaged with sports games its why Madden sells so reliably and strongly year, after year. Its part of the NFL merchandising machine and the play off that culture and sports. That's why I mentioned it as a stumbling block of just not belonging. We watch the NFL and the NFL not alot of women, so PLAYING an NFL game not alot of women. Admittedly because there is more simulation of something in the real world going on.
Still good point on Minecraft, I was just mentioning how Gender seemed mostly irrelevant and I was surprised it didn't already HAVE a female skin/option. Then I rememberd "oh yeah out of a dude's basement"

Heck I though racing games "protagonists" were generic or just an excuse for the cars. Drive-atar HAVING a gender seems weird. Ditto Splt/Second.

That all said yeah there are boxes just from taking cue from the world around us that don't have a lot of women so far. My idea for the DLC (focusing on another element of warfare/being a soldier and a general campaign ideA) reflected what little I knew about where women soldiers were deployed and what soldiers should be doing. However it is, overall, kinda boring to adventures set out in CoD for today. On the other hand as I said with all the body hopping and diverse scenarios already its rather silly just as part of the ensemble we don't control more women.

I also meant to use girlfriends in the term I thought acceptable as "familiar or liked female acquaintances" that I thought was okay. I did not mean to inquire that much on your private life but my question still stands. In general as an activity is gaming acceptable. Your example points to diverse taste AND possible means of interst, but one I'm sore to consider for female gaming households (co-oping everything) and unfortunately reinforces some of my preposed thing (females gravitating to games with strong social components, female gamers few in number or more closed off gaming with each other but not, as much as a general simple thing). It doesn't answer just how the greying and growing up issue that's contracted and influenced the market trends and is expressed through females or more generally. Learning you and your SO enjoy coop games is great. But that tells me to appeal more to female gamers include co-op or multiplayer modes. Something I think is part of problematic trend. Making these have more female avatars or characters is also a good idea. But it doesn't give me as wide a view on "okay how to make multiplayer THE thing to do for females"

Urgh I'm not conveying this clearly I think. Do you understand what I am getting at?

TornadoCreator:
You're wrong, Jim. The problem I, and many others, have with fake geek girls isn't the girls bit, it's the fake bit.

Then why isn't the term "fake gamers" and not "gamer girls," and why do you spend the following paragraph explaining how women are out to get men?

JimB:

TornadoCreator:
You're wrong, Jim. The problem I, and many others, have with fake geek girls isn't the girls bit, it's the fake bit.

Then why isn't the term "fake gamers" and not "gamer girls," and why do you spend the following paragraph explaining how women are out to get men?

Yup. I love the whole `I'll put a tiny bit about fake geek men and then move back on to bashing women, no one will suspect a thing!` bit.
Cause fake geek girls are TOTES a thing, but fake geek men *psh* yeah maybe!

My boyfriend asked me the other day why this stuff still annoys me so much- because it never goes away for me.
I'm not going to wake up a dude one day and then never face this stupid bullshit ever again.
Every single time I meet another gamer, or dare to use mic, this fucking issue comes up.

regardless of anyone's feelings on the matter, I think this accurately reflects jims video, and I found some of them pretty funny:

http://fakegeekguys.tumblr.com/

Darmani:
I don't think making female the immediate star of CoD will make anyone mad. Not initially. I think it will be deeply unsatisfying for your request of females in games. And feel out of place because of response likely to be elicitted from the audience, more later. Mostly the FPS star is an empty vessel we don't see following the words of a voice over a radio shooting things. I don't see how it will satisfy one of your stated goals for variety and representation if that "character" is a female.

It should be noted in that game EVERYONE used emotions to get powers. Peach could control hers.. well the player could. Also the idea of "emotion keyed" powers is far from female only. Harry Potter for a quick example. Also we've had yoshi's get power from eating for a while so...while I can get the implications they seem more cheeky for a cartoon then offensive. Also I think --- Mama... okay the real offensive it was science papa more than anything but before that comic came out we had Cooking AND Education Mama. And really I have to wonder why those spinoffs didn't happen.. okay Doctor Mama would just be Trauma Center, Educated Mama a little redundant but Business/Executive Mama seemed a rather offensive missed step. And business/sim games were in (at least there is a niche as Eve proves).

I'm not a fan of "agency" as an arguing point. The point in Bioshock.. all of them is the struggle of and lack of agnecy. This is even the thing in God of War (okay got me there with the choose your partner thing).

With female characters I think the pitfalls will outweigh the possible gains. Again pointing to Tomb Raider. I think its rather silly in similar situations *guys* aren't threatened with sexual assault, in that one it made perfect sense. But it stirred more negative press and contraversy than Jackie Maa likely dating bad girls. We get really sensitive about females and more judgemental.
Booker DeWitt maintains our sympathy and consideration as a hero we follow, his death is a sacrifice and a tragedy. His flaws endear us to seem him overcome them. His crossing the line is really meant to be him selling his kid.
Could that same level of empathy but lack of shock or hatred to the game or its creators come to pass if Dewitt was female? It would more likely be taken as a statement of women as a whole. A point to this is how people objected to rabid popular coup women Daisy Fitzroy leading public executions when she worked by raising anger, promised vengance, and pursued a revolt by means of arms. That it became a reign of terror was *duh* that this was going to be More Dredd Scott or the Bolsheviks was perfectly sane. But still the largest criticisms aren't Booker's dissolute character but the villification of Fitzroy and the Vox Populi when BOTH are underdogs.

I don't mean to imply you want to play a goody two shoes. I think more you want to play Captain Kirk, in particular 2009 reboot Captain Kirk and won't get that from Female Pvt Soap or Female Booker DeWitt. Given how rare these stories and depth are (and STILL found wanting) and don't fit, or I propose they don't, how could one do. And hope for "epic enough" is a little vague as "strong female character" or "good writing" The only box I put the theoritcal female in is that of the pre-existing male protagonist.

Speaking of...
The large appeal of sports games is another way to be a fan or engage in the culture of sports teams and celebrities. You get to own and run the mariners, Peyton manning follows your play, etc. I didn't mean to say females don't like sports. Actually the opposite. I assume as fans of sports...why would they want or expect or put in female players? Do we then focus on the other sports or leagues with more women? Wasn't there a try for a WNBA game and it.. didn't do so well?
How much do games with original or nonlicensed stars sell? I thought there was a very specific appeal being packaged with sports games its why Madden sells so reliably and strongly year, after year. Its part of the NFL merchandising machine and the play off that culture and sports. That's why I mentioned it as a stumbling block of just not belonging. We watch the NFL and the NFL not alot of women, so PLAYING an NFL game not alot of women. Admittedly because there is more simulation of something in the real world going on.
Still good point on Minecraft, I was just mentioning how Gender seemed mostly irrelevant and I was surprised it didn't already HAVE a female skin/option. Then I rememberd "oh yeah out of a dude's basement"

Heck I though racing games "protagonists" were generic or just an excuse for the cars. Drive-atar HAVING a gender seems weird. Ditto Splt/Second.

That all said yeah there are boxes just from taking cue from the world around us that don't have a lot of women so far. My idea for the DLC (focusing on another element of warfare/being a soldier and a general campaign ideA) reflected what little I knew about where women soldiers were deployed and what soldiers should be doing. However it is, overall, kinda boring to adventures set out in CoD for today. On the other hand as I said with all the body hopping and diverse scenarios already its rather silly just as part of the ensemble we don't control more women.

I also meant to use girlfriends in the term I thought acceptable as "familiar or liked female acquaintances" that I thought was okay. I did not mean to inquire that much on your private life but my question still stands. In general as an activity is gaming acceptable. Your example points to diverse taste AND possible means of interst, but one I'm sore to consider for female gaming households (co-oping everything) and unfortunately reinforces some of my preposed thing (females gravitating to games with strong social components, female gamers few in number or more closed off gaming with each other but not, as much as a general simple thing). It doesn't answer just how the greying and growing up issue that's contracted and influenced the market trends and is expressed through females or more generally. Learning you and your SO enjoy coop games is great. But that tells me to appeal more to female gamers include co-op or multiplayer modes. Something I think is part of problematic trend. Making these have more female avatars or characters is also a good idea. But it doesn't give me as wide a view on "okay how to make multiplayer THE thing to do for females"

Urgh I'm not conveying this clearly I think. Do you understand what I am getting at?

With all the people playing in the world, and the bad rep the players of those games have (not because they're the majority, just the most well known, and loudest) I'd say some people would be mad. And I'd say it's a safe bet they'll be mad over the likely gender option in the multiplayer. There's going to be people who don't see it as a good thing.

Variety includes empty vessels. How often do you see women on the modern battlefield? Almost never? Variety!
How often do you see female modern day soldiers in games? Pretty much never. More of that variety.

While people get power from emotions, the emotion mechanic in Super Princess Peach overdid it, IMO. I doubt Potter changed his emotional state at a whim hundreds of times over the course of a game to drastic, stereotypical extents, or just to solve puzzles.
And I don't think a vibe scepter/wand came into play, either. :P
Considering Yoshi can lay eggs when he eats, I can say it's more justified.

I am a fan of agency as part of this discussion as agency is the dividing line between NPC, and Playable character, IMO. No NPC will ever have as much agency as a playable character.
NPCs will react the way the CPU tells them to. At times this comes with zero variance from game to game.
Lets look at the President in the old NES game Bad Dudes for the sake of getting away from some of the norms. No matter what you do in the game, he acts the same way no matter what. The president has no agency in that game. Zero. None.
This isn't relegated to the old NES era, this sort of thing happens to this day.
Playable characters often have greater agency. The titular "bad dudes" have agency. Defeat the ninja with a punch, or kick? Take the upper platforms, or not? Pick up a weapon, or not? These decisions can vary from game to game. Granted they get their agency from your decisions as they are the avatars of your will, it remains that their agency is nowhere near as limited as an NPCs.

Pardon the phrasing, but as far as adding female protagonis or not goes, you're damned either way.
The status quo is getting the game industry a very very focused anger. It's costing them customers. People are eagerly talking about this subject.
Personally, I don't feel that avoiding the problem is better than any problem that would arise by tackling it.
You still won't please everyone if you add more female protagoinists, but as I said before, the complaints will disperse over a larger area as people get the ever so wonderful luxury of having a long list of female protagonists to have opinions over in a more recent history. Why, we could possibly have decent rivalries! Like guys have between the protagonists of Infamous, and Prototype, and what they represent as a super powered game characters.
Having much more to talk about keeps things interesting.

You mentioned instant empathy with female protagonists. I dare say what reaction that Booker got would be amplified because of that. Would it be universally liked? No, nothing ever is.
And like Other M, if every problem with te character is going to be looked at more if there is a lack of competition. It's easy to notice the details of a lone tree. Not so much in a forrest.

You're still assuming too much. I don't just want to play as a Kirk type character. It's impossible to limit what I want to one character,character type, example, or even any group of people you can count.
The lack of female protagonists won't be solved by any one character, or any one character type. It's going to take a lineup of characters of varying types across a number of games.

Yes, I admit that Sports games are going to have difficulty incorporating women, but that didn't stop one of my fav sports games from having them. NBA Jam On Fire Edition had Faith from Mirror's Edge, Kaori and Elise from SSX, Sarah Palin, and a girl panda off the top of my head.
You better believe that put a smile on my face and had me unlocking them ASAP. Well, Faith, Kaori, and Elise. I'm not a fan of politics in general.
Golf, and Tennis will have an easier job.
I could have sworn a recent sports game had a gender option. I just can't remember. Was it a hockey game, or a soccer game? Agh...
Still, there's non league options. Fantasy leagues, or maybe a game based on people just playing in real life could work? No stars, just average people.
I really don't know how a game based on the "lingerie football league" would go over. On one hand it had women wanting to compete seriously, but, well, the word Lingerie, and the women wore skimpier but decent versions of male uniforms, and less protective gear. And yes, it exists, or did exist. Might be in off season now. I watched a few games, not for the lingerie (ok, partly coz of it. >.>), but to see them compete.

Protagonists with gender in racing games are silly? Tell that to Mario Kart. :P
But in all seriousness, silly or not, if you aren't going to make any effort to add women as playable in a game, why would women want to make effort to add your game to their library?
Sure you might get some women buy the game, but people in general do not feel included when they're excluded. It may be a silly notion, but it's a token of good will.

Even with the body hopping in shooters, playing as a woman will have to come with an interesting story. With women not on the front lines, odds are it'll require an unlikely, but possible scenario where she's thrust into having to act in a way that makes for an exciting story. My ideas on that are kinda limited, really.

I know you meant girls who just happen to be friends, or friends in general, but I'm just somewhat open about being lesbian.

I have an idea of what you're talking about, but there's not going to a formula on how to appeal to female gamers other than respecting the representation of female characters, and female protagonists in the same ways that male protagonists are.
I mean I love co-op in sharing my experiences with other people, but I also like a single player experience all my own.
Like Jim Sterling said, there is no perfect pasta sauce. Only perfect pasta sauces.

Rebel_Raven:
Games like Pokemon where you pick a gender don't cut it with me until the gender of the protagonist makes a real diffirence in the game.

Gender doesn't make someone a well-written character. Gender of the protagonist won't make a difference in a game unless you want your game filled with gender stereotypes. Well-written male and female characters are really exactly the same. They are interchangeable.

Blue Ranger:

Rebel_Raven:
Games like Pokemon where you pick a gender don't cut it with me until the gender of the protagonist makes a real diffirence in the game.

Gender doesn't make someone a well-written character. Gender of the protagonist won't make a difference in a game unless you want your game filled with gender stereotypes. Well-written male and female characters are really exactly the same. They are interchangeable.

I never said that was the case? Red Dead Redemption was pretty well written as a whole.
More than a few games I played had well written male protagonists.
And a handful of times there were well written women.
Of course there were drek writing for both genders in my experience, too.

They aren't always interchangeable, IMO. People do happen to react to men, and women differently at times. Frankly I think it's an undeniable truth for the world in general. Sometimes I appreciate it when games aknowledge this.

Rebel_Raven:

Blue Ranger:

Rebel_Raven:
Games like Pokemon where you pick a gender don't cut it with me until the gender of the protagonist makes a real diffirence in the game.

Gender doesn't make someone a well-written character. Gender of the protagonist won't make a difference in a game unless you want your game filled with gender stereotypes. Well-written male and female characters are really exactly the same. They are interchangeable.

I never said that was the case? Red Dead Redemption was pretty well written as a whole.
More than a few games I played had well written male protagonists.
And a handful of times there were well written women.
Of course there were drek writing for both genders in my experience, too.

They aren't always interchangeable, IMO. People do happen to react to men, and women differently at times. Frankly I think it's an undeniable truth for the world in general. Sometimes I appreciate it when games aknowledge this.

They are interchangeable because gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of. The only reason people think otherwise is because of gender stereotypes they can't seem to get rid of. Well-written stories don't need to have someone's gender make a real difference. So I don't see how games where picking your gender but the gender not being a big deal is a problem. Sure, stories can acknowledge how people view a character, but that can go both ways, good and bad. Discrimination is not something only females know. On some level practically everyone can relate to that.

Blue Ranger:

Rebel_Raven:

Blue Ranger:

Gender doesn't make someone a well-written character. Gender of the protagonist won't make a difference in a game unless you want your game filled with gender stereotypes. Well-written male and female characters are really exactly the same. They are interchangeable.

I never said that was the case? Red Dead Redemption was pretty well written as a whole.
More than a few games I played had well written male protagonists.
And a handful of times there were well written women.
Of course there were drek writing for both genders in my experience, too.

They aren't always interchangeable, IMO. People do happen to react to men, and women differently at times. Frankly I think it's an undeniable truth for the world in general. Sometimes I appreciate it when games aknowledge this.

They are interchangeable because gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of. The only reason people think otherwise is because of gender stereotypes they can't seem to get rid of. Well-written stories don't need to have someone's gender make a real difference. So I don't see how games where picking your gender but the gender not being a big deal is a problem. Sure, stories can acknowledge how people view a character, but that can go both ways, good and bad. Discrimination is not something only females know. On some level practically everyone can relate to that.

You certainly do have a point in saying gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of. Videogames, especially aren't constrained by anything but the limits of what they're played on, and the people that program it.

I'm not saying all well written stories need to make a big deal about gender, but well written stories can. That sort of variety is a good thing, IMO, even if it's not necessarily the best light of a person, male or female.

I'm definitely not saying I can't appreciate a game like Skyrim where gender is almost entirely an aesthetic choice, or pokemon where AFAIK gender doesn't matter at all. I just can't live off games like that, or the opposite purely.

Even in games like that, it's nice where there's instances like Dragon's Dogma, where ogres frenzy, and focus on nearby women out of excitement. There's an instance of a troupe of female bandits that a guy has to dress in drag to get in peacefully to interact with. For the most part, though, gender doesn't really matter in Dragon's Dogma, those events aside.

As annoiying as it is, the fact women can't have safe sex with women in Fable is different. The world reacts to your gender, too.

Basically, what I'm saying is there's room for both stories that do, or do not have a world or point of view that alters based on gender for me. I welcome both. Infact, at the end of the day, I'd say I need both.

Phasmal:
My boyfriend asked me the other day why this stuff still annoys me so much: because it never goes away for me. I'm not going to wake up a dude one day and then never face this stupid bullshit ever again. Every single time I meet another gamer, or dare to use mic, this fucking issue comes up.

I can't think of anything to say here that isn't overstepping my bounds, so I'm just going to acknowledge your response and say nothing except that I'm sorry for the prejudice you face.

Blue Ranger:
They are interchangeable because gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of.

I wonder if "gender" is the word you actually mean here. Gender does not refer to the biological differences between the sexes, but rather the social ones; it describes what roles a given society expects them to fill, in other words. Gender is that aspect of the character that is shaped by the world he lives in, and while it's not impossible to tell a story where gender doesn't matter, it does require the story to go out of its way to avoid such things. I don't think Rebel_Raven is wrong for wanting a game about someone who spent all her life being told she was supposed to get the Happy Meal with the ponies instead of the Transformers in them, yet is now in the position of being an action hero or whatever. If such a character can overcome the social pressure to defer to men, for example, but still keep those aspects of feminine gender she wants to keep, then that sounds like an interesting story to me.

Blue Ranger:
I don't see how games where picking your gender but the gender not being a big deal is a problem.

It's not a problem, really. It's probably even progressive. It might come off as whitewashing gender inequality issues, but that would be a problem with a specific game's presentation, not a categorical problem.

Darmani:

I am familiar with Korval's blog. But it starts from an assumption of Samus character when this set out to define it. This was rejected because... it wasn't as appealling by what was made before with the sop excuse and newbies wouldn't get it.

So you say before that the games had nothing regarding plot and characterization, which would mean that anyone playing them would get it cause its not that difficult, and yet you say that M:OM was made for newcomers because it IS too difficult to "get into" the franchise.

......right.

Funny I was new to metroid, I mostly got it. I saw it had flaws but liked it. It didn't despite what butthurt fans keep saying "throw out" Metroid Prime so much as de-emphasized that part.
The problem is fans of Samus came to the conclusion, on their own, Samus having maternal feelings for the baby was bad.

Or, it could be that the intro of Super Metroid made ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that Samus didn't have 2 shits about the Baby Metroid:

Otherwise, she would have shown some restrain or worry when she send the Baby to the scientist on the space station. She didn't complain nor expressed in a monologue (like she does on M:OM or Fusion) that it HAD to be done DESPITE her feelings. There is none of that, and therefore the way M:OM presents it is just a bad Retcon from many many more to come. She could be sad AFTER the baby who defended her out of instinct died, but not from the VERY SECOND she meet the thing, which is what M:OM implies.

I can put to fanfic and other articles indicating this. For the most part she was blank as a character with lots of ideas built around her coming to a consensus with minor input from the author.

Minor input or not, there IS an input that Sakamoto was in full control to do as he pleased. He was the director of Super Metroid after all. Hell, even Retro was in constant watch by Nintendo and Shigeru Miyamoto (yes, that guy) when they made Metroid Prime, and was developers the japanese way (and sadly, that wasn't still enough for the franchize to be popular in its homeland, but for Westerns it was excellent). So, if there was something he wanted to do before, he could have done it....and he did.

He made sure that on ALL his works there was a pattern on the way Samus reacts to stuff:

That element is present in the majority of games (even with the Prime series out of the timeline, the mayority of games of the series belong to Sakamoto), and a pattern is created. If Sakamoto didn't want this to happen cause he wanted to tell a story for later, he could have prevented it at any moment during development.

Also, if the following scene doesn't speak volumes for her character without a word, then i dont know what is:

The author sought to redefine the character along lines he felt more comfortable with and started by focusing on Samus's most distinct trait her gender and famous relationshop with the Metroid hatchling that bonded to her and saved her life.
He used this as a means to redefine the character. WE KNEW THIS WAS COMING YOUR FANFICS WILL BE RUINED

The interviews made it clear that he didn't use M:OM to tell a story of Samus, he did it because he wanted to make a political statement. So i dont see where did you get the idea that he cares about her character:

This didn't make it correct, ignores that "proving herself" was ultimately to herself and she reasserted herself the whole time.

I have no idea what the fuck you mean here. If by "proving herself" you mean Samus, i am pretty sure that blowing up Eldrictch Abominations that would make "The Thing" of John Carpenter blush, AND the fact that in the Prime series she gets people from the Galactic Federation to greet her in awe an inspiration should be proof enough of her worth.

I was there folks.

If that ever worked on a court of law, then most cases will end with just a witness saying: "HE DID IT! I WAS THERE" Case closed. Justice has been served.

Samus taking orders from the highest ranking officer of the army who's property it was on the scene. In tense situaiton like exploring a likely compromised vessel for survivors after proven damaged and infested with enemies? SEXISM

Soooooo apparently the woman that cleans this kind of disasters for a living apparently isn't capable of doing just that again WITHOUT the GF because........because? Apparently Fusion doesn't exist in your timeline.

Samus having PTSD flashback for 40 seconds while she's attacked in 2:30 cutscene performing all sorts of flips and shots and screwing up the resolve to reactivate suit in midair while being crushed by giant spacedragon SEXISM (according to Korval the hero is Anthony... uhm yep the guy knocked aside is the hero)

PTSD doesnt work that way. If she EVER had PTSD then all the Ridley battles should have a moment like that. She did suffer from it in the manga but she got over it, you know why? because that is not PTSD, that is just a plot device. PTSD is incurable and you cant just get over it, even in this galaxy far far away and years into the future where medicine should ALSO be on top of the line, there is still people that use glasses instead of eye surgery or even contact lenses (I am talking about the Tutorial guy in M:OM).

So doing badass stunts instead of AFFECTING THE PLOT is what a proper hero does? May i present you with this trope?:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MilesGloriosus

Or this famous quote:
According to a loose enough definition of 'hero', we qualify. Well, more or less. The point is that good deeds were done and we were nearby.-Red Mage

Adam "The greatest military mind that commanded everyone to split like an Scooby Doo cartoon when not even together could do shit" and the others idiots are the heroes because they actually move the plot forward than the supposed heroine.

Remember Korval (and everyone else) definition of Strong Character?
What is a "strong character?" It doesn't really have anything to do with strength, rebelliousness, or things of that nature.

Narrative is a non-linear combination of three elements: plot, character, and theme. A strong character is one who's actions directly affect the plot. Strong characters drive the plot directly; they are the most important characters to the plot. And while other characters may affect them in some way, those characters only affect the plot in the way that they effect the strong characters. Bruce Wayne and the Joker are strong characters in The Dark Knight. Alfred is a well-drawn and important character, but he's not strong because he never does anything that directly affects the plot.

Strong characters are the agents of the plot, the movers-and-shakers of the story. The ones the plot is built around. The reason the "strong female character" is a litmus test of sorts for feminism is because... there really aren't that many of them. Which means that females in fiction, by and large, only have an indirect effect on the plot. This speaks to a more passive, supportive role for women in general, which ties into the whole "feminine" ideal that many would like to see women not forced into.

And conveniently enough, the other females of the story are equally as useless compared to the manly men. I wonder, what is the definition for when the cast of one gender is portrayed as ineffectual and weak compared to the cast of the opposite sex who get shit done? ......fuck, i cant remember. Oh well.

Adam telling you what to do and expecting it done without justifying his orders to you (well actually he did and later we know WHY he's being secretive AND distant) SEXISM

Except that even in the flashbacks where we are supposed to "get" his character and why Samus respects him, he STILLS acts cold, secretive AND distant. He is always like this, and we are not given a proper reason why would Samus would consider him a father figure when the fucking CHZO where the ones that revive her after the Ridley incident AND gave her the suit (portrayed both in the manga and Zero Mission, by Sakamoto)

And lets not forget the gem that the scene with Adam shooting Samus in the back FIRST, before shooting the deadly Metroid that was about to attack her. Did we get a proper reason as for why he did that, or why Samus doesnt even PROTEST to the mere fact she got shoot by her "trusted" mentor that almost got her killed? no?

Why is this hobo person ordering Samus again?

Motherhood as a theme SEXISM

Korval and the others mentioned Motherhood done right in the movie Aliens. You know, that movie series that inspired Metroid in the first place?

You just didn't read it and you are pulling my leg.

Rebel_Raven:

It's not -just- focus groups that I'm blaming. It's the people that get the focus groups together. They look for people who'll confirm what they want to hear over what people in general think. Your example of focus testers getting unstable people to prove games make people more violent is an example of that.

Or they'll get focus groups made of fans of some other series and end up trying to ape that series.

There's a plethora of bad motives, and bad methods that can bias a group really badly.

Of course the people getting the groups together aren't to blame on their own.

Societal pressures can make focus groups liars. The need for acceptance make their answers conform with everyone else instead of saying how they really feel. It's not always the case, but it skews the results.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7405-Damn-Fine-Coffee
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7161-Perfect-Pasta-Sauce
Jim talks about focus groups, and points out flaws, more specifically in Damn Fine Coffee.

I think some attempts are made to try and capitalize on girl gamers. I'm sure we've all seen the pastel worlds of Bratz, or Barbie.

What about the franchises that were working fine with a non specific audience in mind (My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic), but then they were retooled into the same crap that was already made before? see the Equestria Girls movie controversy:

Where do they get the focus group this time? Why do they even NEED to do so since they already swim in money?

I can't pretend to know how well those do since games like that do. They still get made, so thats gotta be saying something, I guess.
Personally I don't really find it inclusive as opposed to segregational.

Honestly I doubt we'll ever know what caused the whole "boys don't want to play as girls" thing. Maybe nothing started it as it was always there?

And there is this thing you keep implying that it was always there.

If there was a problem with girls or feminism with games in the 90's then we should have seen it already. Remember the shitstorms that were made when Mortal Kombat was made? or about the "controversy" (and i use that word veeeeeeery loosely) of "Night Trap", where "you" murder innocent women and politicians made a hearing to ban it?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/NightTrap?from=Main.NightTrap


If a game they didn't bother to play for 1 minute to see the premise of "you" being a cop that is supposed to protect women is enough to make a hearing, therefore, by virtue of a variation of this trope:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MissingWhiteWomanSyndrome

..i can definitely say that, if there was a white feminist woman with a...shall we say.. "problem" with the games she played, then we could hear the sirens of the Police and the plastic burning from Jupiter.

As for becoming a champion, you can't do it for feedback, and you can't count of feedback. You have to do it because you want to. Because you've got some kind of passion for it. If you're lucky, people learn about you. It helps to go to get word of mouth advertisement, getting on youtube, or escapist, and talking up your points often, and with some reliability.
Most importantly, despite getting kicked, or praised, you have to want to do it.

The human organism desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization. That feedback is what makes possible this kind of passion. Without it, or a negative one, it can send you into a depression because people keep insisting there is something WRONG with you.

Hell, they even made a videogame about trying to make a girl regain her will to live after being told many times:

While you don't send a clown in to fix a nuclear reactor, you aren't going to get your point across if no one wants to listen to you. Anita, and Girlwriteswhat have the same problem to me in that their delivery is extremely dry.
Being talked to through a pokerface and a monotonal nature with a fairly bland appearance will mess with my interest level. That's just me speaking from my point of view, mind you.
It's why I prefer Jim Sterling over Anita.

GWW makes her videos just to make a point, not to entertain. She did it because apparently the blogs weren't enough to make people listen to her due to constant abuse of Ad Hominem. Men's rights activists are regularly dismissed as crazy, delusional, and misogynist simply by virtue of being men's rights activists. She started making videos instead of writing, because she was being called a guy who's mad at women because he can't get laid; and/or a fat, ugly woman desperate to hold onto the only man that would be in a relationship with her by pandering to him.

It was the last resort to make her point across. Complaining about the delivery is like complaining that Anita uses a shitton of make up and lots of things to make herself look good on camera, like she doesn't have confidence on her own body or something.

https://twitter.com/Bendilin/status/356947874661154818/photo/1
Oh

When dealing with something as batshit ridiculous as "a woman accused a cab driver of rape, just to avoid paying 35$ bucks" we need a straight, dry, non sarcastic delivery to let the audience know that this is fucking real.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2009/05/15/edmonton-cab-driver-lawsuit.html

Besides, if you don't like dry delivery, then i take you didn't like Kreia from Knights of The Old Republic 2.

JellySlimerMan:
-snip-

Kinda falls into that group of stuff that goes down badly because they listened to market testers and fsulty focus groups, no?

Why do they do it? I'm no mind reader, but I imagine either the desire to make more money, or "good intentions," ya know, the sort the road to hell is paved with? :P

Businesses get dumb sooner or later.

Oh come on, we don't even see people railing the gaming industry on sexism/feminism on the news -now- aside from a short stint on Anita a while ago, do we? I'm waiting for sensational madness that makes anything I've said extremely reasonable, and sane. Heck, I've expected it for years, but maybe I missed it?

Violence is easiest to use to scare people, though. At least over feminism, and sexism. It's a lot easier to use as a tool to get ratings.

I agree that we do like judgement. We like getting responses. Still, when you campaign for something, you have to make yourself known, or be interesting enough for word of mouth to spread.

While it would be nice if I got noticed by some bigshot outside of the forum, or people in general, I realistically know it's absurdly unlikely.

It's a shame that a yourtube channel was GWW's last resort, sinc that's one of the best ways you can get out there. Make your voice heard often, and as loud as possible.

Hey, it's just my opionion on GWW's and Anita's delivery. Both are pretty dry.
Entertaining, and getting a point across are not mutually exclusive, IMO. Despite that, however, there's room for both extremes and everything in between. My opinion is just that. If you enjoy either of their deliveries, that's fine.

I never played that game unfortunately, so I can't comment on Kriea. I doubt she talks in a monotonal way for 30 minutes, though.

"I have no idea what the fuck you mean here. If by "proving herself" you mean Samus, i am pretty sure that blowing up Eldrictch Abominations that would make "The Thing" of John Carpenter blush, AND the fact that in the Prime series she gets people from the Galactic Federation to greet her in awe an inspiration should be proof enough of her worth."

It isn't for Batman, Wolverine, Spider-man, Dexter, Jack Ryan, almost any Bruce willis character, Bruce Banner, and Dr. Strange. Second movie like clockwork whatever there successes they feel hurt and undermined by the losses or sheer STRESS of the battle. And how does the game open. Yes it does recontextualize events. inserting depressing tragedy or fear and angst where it was mostly passported before. But Metroid has always been eerie and even macabre. Even with the opening of Super Metroid, at a time most nintendo properties were all sunshine Samus sounds melacholy, distant, and even morose. This is followed up in Fusion as well where she names a disembodied voice after a dead commander.
This is a pretty grim character. Seeing her in a tale where she experiences grimness but isn't the cause of it is a way to deepen the setting, redefine the character, and maintain a sense of heroism.
Other M gives us a "small" victory admist a tragic circumstance. Versus Super Metroid
where a great tragedy happened amongst celebrated circumstances. It opens with Samus plagued by the vision of her nearly dying and someone dying in her place and needing to kill a monster. she functions but is unnerved and unhappy even empty. This is continued with how she "feels" about accomplishing some great galactic good.
The universe sees her as a hero. She feels...numb and unsure and someone who saved her life, whatever their species, is gone even forgotten. Even if before the end of super metroid Samus never saw the baby as anything but a goal by it sacrificing itself. Merging with her. GIVING her energy that was affecting her. . .that could easily have an enormous impact.
I mention Bruce Willis because a near cliche of his movies is an opening encounter with or establishment with a child character and seeing how they reflect off him. its the opening to Hostage, Mercury Rising, and arguably the Sixth Sense or similar to it.
I liked that Samus didn't argue jurisdiction with Adam and that Adam didn't just immediately embrace her as one of the team. That would have rang false and a little cliche. I wonder if everyone misses how almost every encouter with the Marines starts with Samus and them aiming at each other. I masterfully love the emotional thread and manipulations the story pulls off making you tense and unsure, even hating Adam as he's openly authoritative and restricting.
I like how the weapons and so on are handled feels boss and new and like I'm in a tense situation and have to be careful plus I feel powerful or expert like. using the right tool assigned for the job.
I do feel they messed some things up. I agree with Korval points happen in the plot that have no after the facts are to light justification, the hellrun, but I don't see it with Adams knock out of Samus he's plainly doing this to disable her and entrusting her with his mission as he wants to save her, won't trust her to face the metroids, and believes if not incapacitated she'd disobey orders to save him. Yes it was a contrived heroic sacrifice, but when do we come down on those as establishing validation for abusive relationships? Oh right when it stars gamings virgin mary.

yep gaming especially retro is the new Ramones tshirt.great vid. Jim!

Damn, Jim's on to me.

Guess I have to start bouncing my balls around on some new gamer site, everyone here is getting too clever.

I hope we just make progress on why there aren't enough Female Protagonists soon.
Because i wanna talk about why there aren't enough Black Protagonists. (Male and Female respectively.)

I see we agree on how very very sexy Jonathon Holmes is.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here