Why Can't Comedy Games be Funny to Play?

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Sacrifice was very funny, but the humor came mostly from the five gods bickering among themselves (how in the nine hells did they get access to Tim Curry?). Units could be funny mostly by how pathetic most of them look.

Evil Genius works better. There were lots of some-or-other simulation games in the 90s that were pretty funny, like Theme Hospital and Dungeon Keeper and Evil Genius was a callback to all that good stuff. But even a very funny game like Dungeon Keeper had most of its jokes being only funny the first time around. Unless you count being evil inherently funny (torture, starvation, slaping your minions to make them work harder... can all be funny in its ironic way). At least Sacrifice required several iterations working for each of the five gods to get all the jokes, and there were plenty.

Now that I think about it, one of the funniest first-person games I've ever played was Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. The game wasn't even particularly aimed at comedy, but it just gave you the right tools. Using telekinesis to throw stuff at your enemies, leaving a spot of the ground frozen so that a pursuing enemy slips and falls (possibly into an abyss), kicking goblins around so you can feel like a supreme jerk, setting off environmental kills.

Finally, there's Magicka, which was already mentioned (a lot). The several ways to off yourself while trying to cast can be pretty funny, especially in multiplayer. I wish, though, that some enemies weren't just immune to most effects you can throw at them.

There was also Giants: Citizen Kabuto, which had some great dialogue, but also managed to hit the mark with it's art direction, and the casual abuse of (and by) the local inhabitants during gameplay worked off the story. The three different gameplay modes for the three story arcs kept things fresh as well. Mostly it was the combination of many little comedy moments, slightly surreal setting, and fun and varied mechanics that left a positive impression.

My vote goes to the minigames in Saints Row 2, particularly the Insurance Fraud minigame.

They offer fun mechanics, and are short and to the point, only to be repeated if the player wishes, which helps them not overstay their welcome.

As for the Insurance Fraud minigame, throwing myself at traffic and chaining multiple hits on different vehicles as my limp flailing body is bounced around town never stops being funny. Specially in the rather manic way you end up looking to be hurt as the timer reaches completion.

Probably the original Worms games for the pc would be a good example. Had some truly hilarious weapons and death animations; mixed with turned based gameplay and simple play mechanics that lent itself well to the original humour.

The Monkey Island games.
Day of the Tentacle.
And a whole lot of other adventure videogames.

Ratchet and Clank is funny. I've only played the original trilogy and Deadlocked, and I think all four are funny, occasionally hilarious.

Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon

I'm surprised this is considered funny. I've only played regular Far Cry 3, and I can't help but imagine the "funny guy" writer at Ubisoft Montreal to be either some 15 year old, fedora-wearing, MLP loving, "friend-zone" dwelling douche desperately trying to make a topical joke or funny NPC dialogue. It makes me cringe almost every time Far Cry 3 tries to be funny.

Thought of another. GTA is always hilarious and well written in a Louis C.K. kind of way. Half juvenile, half satire.

Oskuro:
My vote goes to the minigames in Saints Row 2, particularly the Insurance Fraud minigame.

They offer fun mechanics, and are short and to the point, only to be repeated if the player wishes, which helps them not overstay their welcome.

As for the Insurance Fraud minigame, throwing myself at traffic and chaining multiple hits on different vehicles as my limp flailing body is bounced around town never stops being funny. Specially in the rather manic way you end up looking to be hurt as the timer reaches completion.

THIIIIIIIIIIS. I remember having no idea what I was supposed to do for Insurance Fraud in SR1 when I started, then figuring it out and not being able to play because all the blood vessels in my face had burst from laughter. And, not only is it death-inducingly funny, it's also satisfyingly challenging

Joshroom:
Probably the original Worms games for the pc would be a good example. Had some truly hilarious weapons and death animations; mixed with turned based gameplay and simple play mechanics that lent itself well to the original humour.

Also, this. Worms is funny, but I would say all of them, rather than just the originals.

For me, I'd say the Katamari games. They're insane on so many levels, and the gameplay certainly not the least of it. The King trying to speak Esperanto never gets old. :)

In my opinion, Borderlands 2's comedy is incredible. The quips the characters say, while eventually repetitious, are memorable enough and enjoyable enough that (at least with my friends) you'll end up laughing and repeating what they said, even after hearing it for the 5000th time.

I thought Eat Lead was funny as hell. Especially the special "Multiplayer" achievement you get. Comedy gold!

I'm sure all of these have been brought up previously, but I can't be bothered to check. There are many types of games which contain comedic elements as a major factor. These are my favorites that aren't adventure games. Or Valve products:

1. Silly sports games. Your "NFL Blitz"es, "NBA Jam"s, "Mutant League Football"s, et al. These are (at their best) decent sports simulators (with simplified controls and/or more limited options than your standard EA Sports fare) that are packaged as cartoony, over-the-top expansions on the basic premises of the sport. I'd also include "You Don't Know Jack" in this category. Because I feel like it.

2. Games that let Japanese comedy do its thing to such an extreme that it's glorious. Far too many to name all of them, so I will name some of my favorites with brief taglines: "Katamari Damacy": The Joy Of Scale; "Odama"; Finally The Pinball Game You've Been Waiting For, The Pinball Kills People!; "Killer7": Conventions Are For Suckers; "Chibi-Robo": Sweeping Counts As Gameplay, Right?; "Cho Aniki": Well that's...

3. Reasonably Competent Spoofs. I am a fan of "The Bard's Tale" for Xbox and it genuinely evoked laughs, because a) Cary Elwes is a badass, and b) it picks its moments. As a fantasy RPG-ish actiony kinda game, I find it completely competent. None of it is the best in its field, but it all works together nicely. Why it works is that it routinely doles out the funny bits while avoiding the traps of too-oft-repeated quips, which makes it quite enjoyable. It has pretty good jokes that are set-up well from cut-scene to cutscene and running gags that usually work. Plus it also has one of the best "moral choice" systems, in that it doesn't change the story (just the weapons and skills you get) and instead of "good/evil," the options are "nice/snarky." Much better, at least for this setting. This category also includes "Evil Dead: A Fistful Of Boomstick"

4. Finally, standing (unsteadily) alone is "Stubbs The Zombie In: Rebel Without A Pulse." This bafflingly-unpopular gem is funny, more-or-less, from start to finish, and is the best action/comedy game I've encountered. I think this is because every element has such joy in its absurdity. Every attack, even just melee attacks is simple, fully controlled, and hilarious. Just getting Stubbs to run is enough to make me laugh every time. And man, it never gets old beating a cop to the edge of death with his partner's arm and then eating his brains; and even if it does, you can always just tell your zombie horde to do it while you're rocking around in your hover-truck. Every boss fight is different and creative, some using using the many different skills and weapons you've acquired and some entertainingly out of nowhere, and the story (which is entirely married with the gameplay) is well-developed, satirical, and... you know what? Fuck the rest of this post, I'm gonna go play "Stubbs" right fucking now!

The best comedy I usually find in games is the "You've Been Framed/Funniest Home Videos" kind. Basically glitches and random events.

It's what I loved about GTA originally. But as they get more clever and realistic a lot of the humour seems lost.

Portal is very funny and very clever, but I dare anyone to watch some of Birgipall's work and try not to laugh out loud. Literally laugh out loud, not "lol" but honest to goodness wet your pants laughing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpgJcgMA_UM

I've played Sleeping Dogs with my kids and they wet themselves over crashes. It's the joy you get from smashing your toys together and seeing where the pieces fly. Like Serious Sam's Cannonball gun Yahtzee mentions.

So maybe there's only two types of comedy possible in games. The carefully constructed and scripted gags of Portal and point-and-click. Or it's the slapstick of the sandpit where anything can happen and the humour is the surprise and ridiculousness of it.

A couple of Amiga classics spring to mind. Monkey Island knows how ridiculous the point and click adventure can be and rolls with it. Cannon Fodder has the dark absurdity of destroying an enemy building only to see the roof land on half of your squad, and then going back to the intermission screen to show you a bunch of fresh faced recruits eagerly signing on just outside the cemetery where your dead squadies have been buried.

SiskoBlue:
The best comedy I usually find in games is the "You've Been Framed/Funniest Home Videos" kind. Basically glitches and random events.

I've always liked watching speedruns to see how utterly a game can be broken and deviated from what the developers originally intended. Speedrunning seems to me to be (occasionally) quite a subversive form of entertainment.

I think the dreaded SET PIECE can make for funny moments. They can usually only be done once and at predetermined points in the game. Just put in the effort of coming up with many jokes and these so called spunkgargleweewee type games might have a place in this world.

Also play Frog Fractions.

Hmm I can't really think of a game with comedy blending in well with the gameplay on the spot.

Usually games tend to just have "humorous elements" rather than trying to be funny so I'm stumped.

I think one of the biggest things is to be conscience of what kind of humor you're aiming for.

Physical humor seems to work REALLY well in multiplayer games. Anyone who has played Halo has had a those unscripted slapstick moments where you're doing a little victory dance and a flaming car flies out of the sky and squishes you, or those moments in Little Big Planet where your friend is jumping over a spike pit at the same time as you, but you're not going to make the jump, so you latch on to their little burlap ass in desperation and you both fly, screaming, into the abyss.

Physical comedy works the best in those "I can't believe that just happened" moments, like riding an ATV tandem in Saints Row 2 when an explosion launches you five hundred feet in the air and you and your friend are both screaming and clutching on for dear life and it lands perfectly and zooms off into the horizon, or pretty much anything that happens in Mario Kart.

Actually, having a co-operative game in which you can still screw your teammates over is pretty much always funny. Battle Block Theater is unbelievably hilarious, and 90% of the humor just comes from shoving your teammate off a cliff.

Now actual wit is another thing entirely...

I recently played the first Crysis game and it has some of the most unintentionally hilarious gameplay I've ever experienced. I played it on the highest difficulty setting where you're highly encouraged to be stealthy and engage enemies from long distances. Instead of sneaking around, I ran around punching people and throwing shit at them. The thought of a high tech supersoldier killing his enemies by throwing barrels at them is funny but also incredibly fun to do in game. Conversely, in Saints Row the Third you are given the dildo bat which is funny because lol dildos. It functions the exact same as the other melee weapons and there's no reason to use it as its novelty wears off 30 seconds after you get it.

The most important things to make a game funny are contrast and variety. If the entire game is supposed to be funny (Saints Row 3) then it all feels the same and isn't very funny at all. If the comedy is broken up by tragic deaths and serious action (Saints Row 2) it's way more effective. Like Yahtzee said, if the funny weapon/finisher does the same thing every time, it gets old fast. In Crysis there are so many ways to approach the missions and kill people that it doesn't get repetitive or boring by the end of the game.

I know the game has little if anything in the way of plot. But I always thought Worms was hilarious. It builds on you being creative with the weapons you get, RNG maps make it impossible to simply copy strats, the weapons are over the top and the big hitters either hard to get or hard to use. Pop culture references and high pitched voices, it does a real good job to invite the player to make his own slap stick comedy. It gets a bit into the line of british comedy, weird and sometimes violent or black but never taking itself in the slightest bit serious.

edit: AK-47 was brilliant, I don't know if it merged to well with gameplay. Although I firmly believed he was at least partly a stab at the imperfect system of conversation trees

I guess Monkey Island is a good example of a game where the comedy and gameplay are nicely matched. Adventure games and comedy go quite well together, because whereas in a non-comedic adventure game the routine of clicking on every thing to see what you can do with it can be arduous, in Monkey Island the dialogue that Guybrush Threepwood gives when you click on something makes you WANT to look at everything. I don't enjoy adventure games at all because I inevitably end up looking at the wiki and that defeats the point, but I did enjoy Monkey Island because the comedy kept it fresh. I dunno. Just an opinion.

-Conker's Bad Fur Day
-Psychonauts
-Banjo Kazooie/Tooie (there's a lot of sexual innuendo's that make me laugh)

I think platforming gameplay matches well with comedy because of the environments. With platforming games the player isn't limited to rooms or corridors, the player might see something right at the top of a giant tree (thinking of Click Clock Wood here) and the challenge is to make it up the top with your platforming skills. What's up there the player doesn't know but there is definitely potential for comedy!

Each level is completely different and not restricted to being 'realistic'. Why not have a level made of poo (Conker's)? Why can't there also be a level where the whole place is warped and twisted and there's these guys who won't let you pass unless you look like you belong there (Psychonauts - Milkman Conspiracy)? Why can't the land be shaped in suggestive ways (Banjo Tooie)?

image

Of all of those I think Conker's Bad Fur Day works the best BECAUSE while I still classify it as a platformer it jumps (heh heh) into other genres. You have traditional platforming for the first few levels (in a range of places such as poo, barns and towers) then all of a sudden it turns into an action game where you ride dinosaurs and eat enemies and race others by surfing lava (caveman level).

Then it goes into a horror-theme (my personal favourite) where you get a shotgun and shoot porcelain zombies with massive heads (and the best head explosion sound effect ever) the game is really dark here and extremely violent. Finally, the game becomes a third-person shooter and ends up as a completely different game as it started. Why more games don't do this I don't know?

Why does a game have to be in a specific genre? Why can't it change or mix into other video game genres? It would help with the comedy because there's no repetition. Each level feels completely different and the potential for comedy increases.

"what other comedy games, besides Portal, possess raw gameplay and challenge mechanics that could be interpreted as reflecting the context and tone of the humour?"

Well, when the context and tone of the humor aren't established by the story but instead by the other elements such as Graphics and Gameplay and Characters it seems pretty easy to come up with a few examples.

Team Fortress 2 even after logging around 700 hours (not a lot compared to some, I know) still manages to crack me up whenever I hear a domination line from pretty much any class. "Nobody's gonna miss you, ya mutant!"

One game that manages to make me laugh so hard I cry no matter how much I play it will be Worms Armageddon. Everything about that game is oriented to be funny, and I still love playing it even though its been 15 or so years.

My biggest issue is that I've never encountered a game where the writing was half as good as a movie or TV show of similar caliber, such as big budget or AAA, or even independent. On the occasion a real writer is chosen we might get some gems, but to be honest they are, again, not in like with their counterparts on other medium, half the time the jokes are completely predictable or they've been done before in one sense or another, are a type of or take on The Aristocrats, essentially becoming the antigen of comedy.

My very simple take on this; comedy requires two major components that are nearly impossible to emulate in a video game, timing and humanity. These are not mutually exclusive but rather they depend on one another to work, then the same old jokes or the punchlines we see coming before half the gag is set up can still be hilarious. It's an almost intangible element that people play upon one another to create a moment that connects with a very human reaction. We can no more simulate true comedy than we can true love.

On the other hand I know that games were perfectly capable with slapstick, which requires little effort and happens a lot in video games accidentally. In this case a game Like Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 had a friend and I in stitches nearly every time we played it.

I just wrote a blog post about incorporating lessons from comedy into gameplay: http://blog.serenityforge.com/post/55828887895/why-deadly-premonition-is-important

Here's the image-free version:

Deadly Premonition is a game thatfs divided the critics more than most any other game. It has gotten scores as low as 2/10 and as high as 10/10. And in a sense, both scores are correct. The game rating system tells us how much the reviewer would recommend that game. Some people will see this game as an abomination and some will see it as a one-of-a-kind treasure.

In the avant-garde art world, this means that Deadly Premonition is a roaring success.

The trend for game-changing art is that it will offend the vast majority, while piquing the interest of the experimental community. Once itfs been discussed at length and copycats start incorporating lessons from the artwork, it will be praised as a masterpiece; a start to a new genre. Deadly Premonition is a game thatfs gso bad itfs goodh in the cheesy 80Œs horror movie sense. And it knows what itfs doing.

Therefs currently a hyper-self-aware comedy scene thatfs has its roots in Andy Kaufman. The comedy is based around the concept that therefs a mock show and a real show hidden underneath it. Andy came on stage as a character named gForeign Manh. People thought that this person was real. Foreign Man would do a stand-up act and it would be terrible. THAT was the joke. Foreign Man would be a character so vivid that people thought he was really a terrible comedian. Audiences hated him. Until the punchline. Foreign Man eventually made Andy Kaufman millions of dollars when the character was renamed gLatkeh for the sitcom gTaxih.

This was the beginning of gcringe humorh, a form of comedy that uses the comedianfs failure as the joke. The humor has evolved since then, but the multi-layered act is a staple in todayfs alt comedy scene.

Deadly Premonition not only employs cringe humor, but uses this same concept for the gameplay. The game is horribly broken, but it never destroys the experience. It just exposes its own flaws and pretends like nothing is wrong. This game is, in reality, two games: The one youfd expect and the meta-game. The fighting WITH the game. In Deadly Premonition, there are several scenes in which you drive passengers to locations, some with time limits. They all talk to you while youfre driving, but instead of just hearing their voices, the camera turns to look at the characters. While driving. How are you supposed to drive without seeing the road? After hitting a number of walls, you realize that you can stay on the road while only looking at the mini-map.

THIS is the revolutionary game mechanic. Fighting with the game HAS BECOME THE GAME. And you know what? Itfs really fun.

This should be a rallying call to game developers. Video games are no longer just crafting a polished world. Gamers know that theyfre playing a game. If you can make them realize it without frustrating them, youfve hit something great.

Now, you might argue that the developers of Deadly Premonition made a broken game because of funding issues or incompetence. Thatfs besides the point. Andy Kaufman never considered himself a comedian; he thought of himself as a performance artist. And yet, modern comedy is thanks to him. The developers intent of Deadly Premonition is irrelevant. The game has shown us something powerful and the community should be taking note.

Also, I Wanna Be The Guy is the funniest game I've played. It's funny because it has constant misdirection. And that's funny gameplay, not funny story.

The funny yet difficult move being effective also has something to do with you deciding you wanted to see it. Call it the Fatality effect, a comedic bit isn't annoying when we deliberately decide we want to see it, regardless of how many times we've seen it before. It doesn't have to be hard, but it does have to be intentional and if it offers a gameplay reward, the reward would have to be so negligible that we wouldn't feel the need to suffer the joke just to get it.

Ok, I wrote a whole other comment with lots of bullshit, but having read all of the rest of you, I have to ask:

Have any of you played "Stubbs the Zombie in Rebel Without a Pulse"?

And if so: did you not find it funny?

Because I think it's hilarious AND really, really fun.

It's been said already a few times, but my first thought was also Worms. Yes, being entirely a multiplayer melee sort of game, it had no plot, but it was still one of the funniest games, and also one of the most fun, I've ever played. And I even include the very first game, which is how I was introduced to the series. The comedy and gameplay are inextricably related - mean, superweapons like literal banana bombs, literal carpet bombs, and of course, the all-powerful concrete donkey?

(You know, I should look into one of the more recent incarnations, see if they've added to it or just messed it up. Haven't played any of them more recent than World Party.)

"So, there's your answer, comedy action game makers: just create enough one-liners and silly animations to attach to every copy-pasted combat encounter in the entire game with no repeats. Hop to it."

You mean like they did with No One Lives Forever? Alright, so it wasn't animation, but the unique conversations of the various waiting henchmen skillfully encouraged the player to adopt a particular approach without ever making it a "rule". (It's no coincidence that the "enforced stealth" levels were the most frustrating and weakest of the lot.)

The logic goes like this: If I sneak up to guards rather than charging in gung-ho, I'll overhear their conversations, which are almost always very funny. Therefore, I have an incentive to behave as a spy would (ie using extreme caution and scoping the scene before engaging the enemy).

The game deserves way more love than it gets. It's a classic!

EDIT: This mechanic also reinforces the idea that making comedy a reward for challenging the player is a great idea.

Has Yahtzee ever played a Ratchet & Clank game? They seem like the answer to everyone of his complaints about triple A gaming these days.

It seems like a catch-22: truly funny things are required for a game to be funny, but they're terrible in excess. The obvious answer is to place funny things in a judicious way, but pack the remainder of the game with scads of things that stop just shy of being funny; for example, funny RPGs like Alundra 2 usually concentrated the actual jokes in cutscenes, with the remainder of the game serving mainly to keep the audience warmed up. RPGs are more literary in nature so there's really no tradeoff to leaning on cutscenes in this way, but the more interactive genres might demand more cleverness; for example, funny deaths. Anyway, I like this answer because it suggests there are a ton of games out there that are just a hair away from being good comedy games. For example, any game where it's fun to mess with NPCs; just a handful of well-delivered jokes would be sufficient.

Negatempest:
Personally I believe that Deadpool game should not of been a hack&slash game. When reading his comics, the majority of the time is that Deadpool does his jokes and a small portion may be dedicated to fighting sequence. At most, deadpool should of been an adventure/exploration game. With some fighting sequences to showcase his agility. With the game being focused on adventure/exploration than hack n' slash, we can see deadpool tinker with the 4th wall constantly. Which is why we all enjoyed deadpool when he wasn't fighting clone wave number 34.

Conker and Portal were not really hack n' slash focus. To occupy the possible quiet time, that is when the witty part of the game came in.

Yeah, I could see this. I do have to give some kudos to the creators though. The game might not have been anything special, but comedy and hack and slash is hard.

Also let's face it, deadpool isn't easy either. He's an intentional, low-hitting, mockery of superheroes who, almost all the time, never gets recognized when he does save the day. It's why I like the character in the comics. All the stuffy, I'm so serious, inflamed hero attitudes people get obsessed with are challenged upfront as obnoxious and redundant.

At least they tried :)

Since repetition usually kills the humor (and the fun) has there ever been a game that limits your ability to repeat actions?

Like, if deadpool just refused to use his Uzis because it's just not funny anymore - it'd force the player to explore other fighting mechanics.

... I remember playing maybe halfway through God Hand. While i dug the variety of moves you could buy, i don't remember what the incentive was to buy them. did you just buy them out of curiousity?
... Basically i'd love to see a godhand game where moves become less powerful, until the character just flat out refuses to do them, unless you change them up to keep them fresh.

... maybe related: I remember being slightly baffled by the fighting challenge stages in the Batman:Arkham games. like you got some kind of score for using a variety of movies. I wasn't sure how they were judging this (there were times I thought i rocked it, only to see some kind of low score). but maybe they already implemented a lightweight example of what I'm babbling about here?

Previously... [I'm not going to quote you all]
(Saints Row series was funny)
(Bulletstorm was funny)
(ArmA II could have funny moments)

To some extent it depends on how receptive the player is. Saints Row can be played straight, if the player just goes for the full gansta experience. Granted there were some really well scripted and planned parts of the game (Pierce, the dope making school teacher, etc etc) that were absurd and could be funny, it's really up to the player to make the transition from absurd to hilarious. You could play the game straight, or you could embrace the absurdity by running around in the octoberfest tutu, sledgehammering your foes into paste.

Bulletstorm rubbed me the wrong way, and as a result, I wasn't receptive to what you assert to be humor. Throughout the game I chafed at the color scheme and invisible walls. The vulgarities made me feel embarrassed for the writers. I didn't even enjoy the robotic dinosaur because it was difficult for me to control. The various stylized kills were amusing at first, but then repetition rears its ugly head. Even the "my best friend is a cyborg now" part of the story was off-kilter. There are parts where I expected to hear the studio audience laugh uncomfortably, but it would only be because the "Laugh" sign had been illuminated.

I don't wish to ever play Deadpool, but I have a retro-active suggestion to make it funny/er. I hear that it's hack/slash, so I presume that there are melee attacks. Add a button for *wacky* melee attacks. This works best if the developers went out of their way to script and render nearly a hundred different wacky attacks. When you engage the wacky attack, only a handful of the attacks are valid for specific enemy types, and of that handful, the first two that are executed would be random. This would keep it fresh, since these enemy types get an atomic wedgie, while those guys get a mackerel in the face. As I mention above, receptiveness is key here, or the 'indian burns' might be taken at face value.

Personally, I think that the best comedic games involve being able to let the player make as many of their own funny moments as possible, using the tools of the gameplay. An obvious example is the open-world genre, whether it's raising hell on wheels and throwing down with the cops, like Grand Theft Auto, or using a grappling hook and an infinite amount of parachutes out your ass to make physics your bitch, like Just Cause 2. This also extends to customization, with Saints Row being the king of this particular challenge by giving countless costume options, and even several voices to add to the havoc.

However, I think some of the greatest comedic material from games comes when people go one step beyond the actual game to create entirely fictional works within the game world. Specifically, I'm talking Machinimas, like Rooster Teeth turning a multiplayer skirmish in Halo into an epic, comedic series that stands as tall as the actual game lore. Or things like Garry's Mod and Valve Filmmaker, which allows people to stage their own comedic adventures using characters and stages from Valve's games, and beyond even that thanks to Steam. Hell, this extends to Let's Play videos, where the player has a running commentary of the action as it happens, or Fanfics, which can capture all the comedic potential and then some with words.

True, I think a good comedy game should still be funny on it's own. But a great one should give it's players enough tools to create and share moments of their own as well.

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