Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

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Denamic:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

Windknight:

Denamic:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

Ironically, I find what you just said sexist. Muscles = strength, yes. But in no way does that inherently convey honour nor bravery. These are projected values. And sure, let's go with a fetishised female character. There may be tits and ass, but in a game like this, where female characters are as strong and brave as any male character, you'd still say they convey no strength, courage or honour just because their secondary sex characteristics are exaggerated? Okay.

Denamic:

DugMachine:

Denamic:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.

Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.

Sure, every man dreams of a beard as magnificent as that of a Dwarf, but this argument doesn't really carry any weight as it can be twisted any way you like. Essentially naked woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked muscular woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked woman with small breasts? Still male sex fantasy. As long as the woman's showing skin, it's almost always a 'male sex fantasy'. Hell, as long as there's tits and she's pretty, it's a male sex fantasy. And sure, that may well be the case. I don't really care either way, as none of that has any bearing of how I view actual women. My point is no one bats an eye no matter how the males are portrayed. Slim, muscular, weak, strong, clothed, naked, wherever. Even the most obvious half-naked bishounen fanservice is utterly ignored.

Again, I don't actually care about how either sex is portrayed. What annoys me is the double standards involved with the complaining about these kinds of things.

You're missing the point. The problem isn't with women showing a little bit of skin, the problem is that, more often than not, the amount of fan service is so over the top it completely breaks the immersion for a lot of people. I'm getting tired of stories were I'm supposed to take things seriously, yet at the same time there's a woman with her tits hanging out. I'm ok with a woman looking sexy, so long as she actually looks like and dresses like how an actual Human would on the battlefield.

And the main reason why people don't get on shirtless men is because, A. compared to women, men don't have it that bad and B. 9 times out of 10, video games are about empowerment, mowing down hundreds of men at once, defeating entire armies, the muscles are the cherry on top. And to be honest, people do get on some examples of it. I lost track of how many times people made fun of the characters in Gears of War.

I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?

-Axle-:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?

Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to say. Only this guy did it gooder than me with less words and shit.

Denamic:

Windknight:

Denamic:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

Ironically, I find what you just said sexist. Muscles = strength, yes. But in no way does that inherently convey honour nor bravery. These are projected values. And sure, let's go with a fetishised female character. There may be tits and ass, but in a game like this, where female characters are as strong and brave as any male character, you'd still say they convey no strength, courage or honour just because their secondary sex characteristics are exaggerated? Okay.

Its in the poses. Look how bare-chested men are posed - poses of strength, dominance, power. Skimpy women are draped over the scenery or are emphasizing their sexual characteristics for the viewers pleasure.

-Axle-:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I have no problem with a character that looks sexy, heck, I like RWBY. The thing is, it needs to fit the setting, and in RWBY I don't mind because everything is so over the top. And even then when I stop to think about it their outfits aren't that revealing with the exception of Yang's, they're more silly than anything else. What really bugs me is a setting where, say, the men where very standard and practical armor, and the woman run around with low cut tops and their breasts hanging out. It's something that's really getting on my nerves while I'm playing through the Witcher. That and people with just impossible anatomy.

erttheking:

Yeah they might have, but let me ask you a question. Did they go under the knife so that they would feel more powerful, or so that men would think that they were more attractive? I don't know them personally, I can't say for sure, but I'm going to lean towards the latter.

And actually I've talked to a lot of women on this website, and they say that they like a little muscle on men, but they find big bulging body builder types to be rather unpleasant to look at. They find the idea that all women like big muscular men to be an annoying stereotype. Some do, but not all of them. Come to think of it, I never really liked how the sorceress looked in this game because her anatomy is just, well, impossible. Seriously, how can she stand up straight?

I actually laughed in a pleasant way when I read your first paragraph. My friend Erin and a bunch of us went out to celebrate her recovery. She decided on a club and we were on the line forever (five minutes)! So she goes up, talks to the bouncers, and waves us up. And she went 'Behold, the power of the boob'. That's a funny memory that just popped up.

Anything in excess (or lack of) is confusing to look at. I like breasts, but if she has too much, I don't know how I'd react. I'd like to think I'd react the same way to a woman who's pleasant to me who is flat chested. That I'll take her for who she is and move from there, but I can't deny whatever I like or feel. That's human nature. But we do all have the capability to look pass these things.

Geeks and 'typically attractive' physical attributes were never bosom buddies (see what I did there?). I know for a fact it was really, really hard to get a geek girlfriend because of exactly what you're saying. There's always going to be exceptions like you say. I also know there were a lot of geek women in my circle who started to try to get close to me when I started getting bigger. Those girls just happened to be my friends and I didn't see them like that, and those other girls... well, one said straight out that she thought I was a player that preyed on women I thought would be an easy lay.

More over, I think it's like Ma'idah said. This whole game was supposed to be a farce/send up of those over the top ideas of Album covers and Vans from the 70's/80's. Overblown and stupid. If a farce is based on a power fantasy, is it still a power fantasy?

DugMachine:

ObsidianJones:
snip

My train of thought is that while there are women who want bigger breasts out there, breasts themselves don't empower you in any way physically. Muscles though make you stronger, more resilient. You look tough and like you've put a lot of work into building those muscles. With said muscles, in a fantasy setting, you can fight anyone and anything.

Some women find really muscular men attractive, no denying that but I'd bet money that when the developers were designing characters they were not thinking of them. I see where you're coming from but I just don't see muscular male characters designed with female's fetishes in mind.

So power fantasies are strictly a physical affair? Hmm. That's somewhat understandable. Stupid of them, mind you, as really ridiculously big muscles impede more than they help in combat. They make you slow, if they are hypertrophic in certain way they can limit your range of motion making you not be able to move as well as someone without muscles. I think Default Commander Shepard would be a person I would most question if I wanted to get into a fight with as he has enough muscle to tell me that he does stuff, but still fit and agile enough that I'll have to keep on my toes.

I sometimes think that designers WANT to make their characters appealing, even sexually appealing to people out there... but they just don't know how. Speaking as a typical guy, I really have no clue what makes a guy attractive. But I do know the difference in men. So stupid teen me decided that I would bulk up because muscles are a guy thing, and any guy thing in excess would impress women.

Cue horrible high school/college years where my female peers wanted nothing to do with me, and women I was not interested in at all asked for random screws.

Men are stupid, is where I'm getting at.

Windknight:

Denamic:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).

-Axle-:

Windknight:

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

Windknight:
Its in the poses. Look how bare-chested men are posed - poses of strength, dominance, power. Skimpy women are draped over the scenery or are emphasizing their sexual characteristics for the viewers pleasure.

What you're missing is that those male power poses are also sexual characteristics. We're a sexual dimorphic species, and while females has rounded facial features, smaller frame, wider hips, tits, etc., males has larger frames, a more violent temperament, square facial features, much larger muscles and so on. When exaggerating these features, different poses are necessary. Females are depicted as sultry and sexy and males as big, strong and stupid because of it.

It's just a video game people.

The question is this:
IS IT FUN?
IS IT PLAYABLE?
CAN I HIT 'IT' WITH MY AXE?
WILL I BE ABLE TO BEAT THE GAME WITH GAME CRUSHING LAG?

The whole 'omg hur boobies are too big' is a stupid debate.
This game wasn't met to be some kind of pro or anti women propaganda.

It's homage, a love letter, to the glory days of the 80s and 90s.
Side scrollers like Double Dragon or River City Ransom or D&D: Chronicles of Mystara.
The pop fantasy artwork like Frank Frazetta or John Howe or Larry Elmore.

Everything else is projection by white knights and people with too much time on their hands.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play BloodRayne 2.

Tanis:
It's just a video game people.

The question is this:
IS IT FUN?
IS IT PLAYABLE?
CAN I HIT 'IT' WITH MY AXE?
WILL I BE ABLE TO BEAT THE GAME WITH GAME CRUSHING LAG?

The whole 'omg hur boobies are too big' is a stupid debate.
This game wasn't met to be some kind of pro or anti women propaganda.

It's homage, a love letter, to the glory days of the 80s and 90s.
Side scrollers like Double Dragon or River City Ransom or D&D: Chronicles of Mystara.
The pop fantasy artwork like Frank Frazetta or John Howe or Larry Elmore.

Everything else is projection by white knights and people with too much time on their hands.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play BloodRayne 2.

You know, I can not like something and NOT be a white knight. Please do not jump to conclusions. I never said that the depiction of women in this game was sexist. I said it was stupid.

Denamic:

Windknight:
Its in the poses. Look how bare-chested men are posed - poses of strength, dominance, power. Skimpy women are draped over the scenery or are emphasizing their sexual characteristics for the viewers pleasure.

What you're missing is that those male power poses are also sexual characteristics. We're a sexual dimorphic species, and while females has tits, rounded facial features, smaller frame, wider hips, tits, etc., males has larger frames, a more violent temperament, square facial features, much larger muscles and so on. When exaggerating these features, different poses are necessary. Females are depicted as sultry and sexy and males as big, strong and stupid because of it.

Not seeing the stupid. Powerful, Aggressive, Dominant, yes. These are all traits that are generally admirable, or positive if tempered, and are male power fantasies - something to make the (male) player feel awesome and great.

As for your descriptor of how women are portrayed, thats pretty much saying all women matter for are their looks, which is pretty much a big problem a lot of people have with this kind of art or portrayal.

I think at this point the proportions just make people uncomfortable.

Which is a real shame because the Sorcerer's hair and face are really pretty.

Windknight:

-Axle-:

Windknight:

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.

DugMachine:

Denamic:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.

Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.

But that is incorrect. Well, the intention may not be there for video games, but the effect certainly is. Male power fantasy is about as equal to female sexual fantasy as female power fantasy is to male sexual fantasy.

I think that this image sums up the "power fantasy" argument pretty well:

image

In regards to this game, I would not want to look like the Dwarf because he is a freakish mutant, and I certainly hope that no rational female would want to look like the Sorceress because she, too, looks like a freakish mutant. Neither are actually sexually appealing (outside of fetishism, or at least when thinking about real life versions of these caricatures) but instead heavily exaggerate the features commonly held as sexually appealing for males and females (abs/pecs and breasts/thighs, respectively).

-Axle-:

Windknight:

-Axle-:

And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.

No, that's not the case. If a woman designed the characters for this game, that wouldn't change my opinion. They still look stupid. The Dwarf looks stupid, the Sorceress looks stupid, the Amazon looks stupid, and the Warrior looks stupid (His head looks like a baby's stuck on a full grown man's body)

Windknight:

Denamic:

Windknight:
Its in the poses. Look how bare-chested men are posed - poses of strength, dominance, power. Skimpy women are draped over the scenery or are emphasizing their sexual characteristics for the viewers pleasure.

What you're missing is that those male power poses are also sexual characteristics. We're a sexual dimorphic species, and while females has tits, rounded facial features, smaller frame, wider hips, tits, etc., males has larger frames, a more violent temperament, square facial features, much larger muscles and so on. When exaggerating these features, different poses are necessary. Females are depicted as sultry and sexy and males as big, strong and stupid because of it.

Not seeing the stupid. Powerful, Aggressive, Dominant, yes. These are all traits that are generally admirable, or positive if tempered, and are male power fantasies - something to make the (male) player feel awesome and great.

As for your descriptor of how women are portrayed, thats pretty much saying all women matter for are their looks, which is pretty much a big problem a lot of people have with this kind of art or portrayal.

What I'm saying is that when secondary sexual characteristics are exaggerated, secondary sexual characteristics are exaggerated. Nowhere did I even imply what women matter for. Watch your mouth.

Looks like a decent side scrolling beat em up with an amazing art style. Now I'm not going to lie, the characters massive assets are a bonus for me. Ill do my best not to go out and oppress every woman I see where I haven't before after playing.

erttheking:

-Axle-:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I have no problem with a character that looks sexy, heck, I like RWBY. The thing is, it needs to fit the setting, and in RWBY I don't mind because everything is so over the top. And even then when I stop to think about it their outfits aren't that revealing with the exception of Yang's, they're more silly than anything else. What really bugs me is a setting where, say, the men where very standard and practical armor, and the woman run around with low cut tops and their breasts hanging out. It's something that's really getting on my nerves while I'm playing through the Witcher. That and people with just impossible anatomy.

There has been a general observation lately with respect to ludonarrative dissonance and video games, and your above point would be a branch of that very same thought. The idea that certain things just don't make logical sense or don't follow the same rules or just seem out of place in the context of the whole picture / universe that has been created.

Although in this game, with the fantasy setting and 500lbs men, I can't say its out of place (IMO).

Denamic:

Windknight:

Not seeing the stupid. Powerful, Aggressive, Dominant, yes. These are all traits that are generally admirable, or positive if tempered, and are male power fantasies - something to make the (male) player feel awesome and great.

As for your descriptor of how women are portrayed, thats pretty much saying all women matter for are their looks, which is pretty much a big problem a lot of people have with this kind of art or portrayal.

What I'm saying is that when secondary sexual characteristics are exaggerated, secondary sexual characteristics are exaggerated. Nowhere did I even imply what women matter for. Watch your mouth.

My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.

To the people that are complaining about the 3/5 stars, Dtoid gave this game a 9.5/10 so I'm just gonna guess that your millage may significantly vary as to how much you like or dislike this game.

-Axle-:

erttheking:

-Axle-:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I have no problem with a character that looks sexy, heck, I like RWBY. The thing is, it needs to fit the setting, and in RWBY I don't mind because everything is so over the top. And even then when I stop to think about it their outfits aren't that revealing with the exception of Yang's, they're more silly than anything else. What really bugs me is a setting where, say, the men where very standard and practical armor, and the woman run around with low cut tops and their breasts hanging out. It's something that's really getting on my nerves while I'm playing through the Witcher. That and people with just impossible anatomy.

There has been a general observation lately with respect to ludonarrative dissonance and video games, and your above point would be a branch of that very same thought. The idea that certain things just don't make logical sense or don't follow the same rules or just seem out of place in the context of the whole picture / universe that has been created.

Although in this game, with the fantasy setting and 500lbs men, I can't say its out of place (IMO).

Hey, I'm not saying that you can't like it, I'm just saying that I don't like it. And to be honest there really is something I just don't like about it. I still like RWBY though. I think part of it is for all the silliness, the sexualization is kept to a minimal (Especially with Ruby herself, pretty much everything is covered) and there still is a certain class to it, the creator said that he wanted to avoid panty shots at all cost. And the thing is, although they are sexualized a little, all of the characters are still clearly Human beings, it doesn't go over the top like the Sorceress.

I just really don't like the design of these characters. Part of it is I just don't like the basic foundation, but I think part of it is the art style. Everyone is saying that they like it. I think it looks hideous. Also the Dwarf and Amazon look like abominations of nature.

Windknight:
My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.

You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.

erttheking:

-Axle-:

Windknight:

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.

No, that's not the case. If a woman designed the characters for this game, that wouldn't change my opinion. They still look stupid.

Your opinion is not what I'm debating, its the argument that its a negative portrayal of the female form.

People have used the premise that women showing only "tits n ass" are worthless, empty, shallow, etc. when judged solely by their presentation. Where as, an overly muscular man is dismissed as a negative portrayal because it can be perceived as a power fantasy by men.

At the end of the day, you're left with two judgements made on the same basis (physical traits) and people seem to want to encourage that one is okay and the other isn't. Its inconsistent reasoning with a very subtle consequence that I don't see discussed as much as I'd like to see.

n of any kind.[/quote]

-Axle-:

Windknight:

-Axle-:

And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.

Not really. I'm saying a woman has a right to chose how she dresses and how she carries herself.

When it comes to artwork, games, comics etc, the woman in question did not chose her personality, attire or pose the artist did. I'm not judging a woman on what she chose - I'm judging an artist on what they wanted to portray in their art.

A thread on the escapist about Dragon's Crown? I wonder how many pages of back-and-forth arguing this will drag on for without actually discussing the game itself instead of prattling on about the art style, human anatomy, and proportions.

Anyway, I'm glad that this is finally on the verge of releasing. I've heard some great things so far about the gameplay and amount of content available. It's been a long time since I've had the chance to play a proper beat 'em up with friends. Just wish the PS3 version weren't so pricey, but eh what can ya do.

Oh, and the art style looks pretty good to me!

Denamic:

Windknight:
My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.

You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.

I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?

erttheking:

Zeckt:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.

The score reflects how much the reviewer liked the game. If the characters made the game less enjoyable for him, then the score would naturally suffer. The same goes with drugs and prostitutes in GTA, if in made the game less enjoyable it would warrant a lower score. But is that really an apt comparison? The characters are constantly on the screen in this game, while the amounts of prostitutes and drugs in GTA are minimal. It's more about guns and car on car carnage.

Fair enough. I can respect that, but I will take the rpgfan and rpgamer reviews more seriously as they specialize in these sort of games and are very trustable sources. Both of those sites I've browsed for over 10 years and I mean this in the nicest way possible but I feel did a better job and were more fair on the game. I'm not trying to insult the reviewer here, I'm just giving constructive feedback.

I get kind of nervous reading reviews where something as simple as a visual art style impacts their decision too much. It's like the games meat and potatoes are actually quite delicious, but the person eating them is angry because of mushrooms in the gravy.

That made me hungry.

-Axle-:

erttheking:

-Axle-:

And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.

No, that's not the case. If a woman designed the characters for this game, that wouldn't change my opinion. They still look stupid.

Your opinion is not what I'm debating, its the argument that its a negative portrayal of the female form.

People have used the premise that women showing only "tits n ass" are worthless, empty, shallow, etc. when judged solely by their presentation. Where as, an overly muscular man is dismissed as a negative portrayal because it can be perceived as a power fantasy by men.

At the end of the day, you're left with two judgements made on the same basis (physical traits) and people seem to want to encourage that one is okay and the other isn't. Its inconsistent reasoning with a very subtle consequence that I don't see discussed as much as I'd like to see.

You seem to be under the impression that giant musclar men are sexist, and I frankly just don't see the connection. They're not the best characters, more often than not I find them kind of bland, but it just doesn't have the same sexist impact as sexualized women. If you go around and ask men what they feel about a big musclar men as characters and ask women what they feel about women with big breasts as characters, you're going to be getting a lot more eye rolls from women than men.

Windknight:

Denamic:

Windknight:
My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.

You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.

I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?

That's irrelevant. There's no text or message to be read here. They probably drew tits because tits. The worrying part is that you somehow derived a message that woman are decorations to be draped over men or scenery and nothing else from a superficial and cursory analysis of their appearance. None of that is implied anywhere. That's purely your own projections, which is the part I was hoping you'd realize on your own. Though I doubt you will even after I've pointed it out, seeing that you've already ignored -Axle- when he pointed out something similar to you.

I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Slycne:
I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Wait what? OH COME ON! That seriously happened in game? We can do better than that! Seriously!

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