Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

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Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.

Denamic:

Windknight:

Denamic:

You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.

I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?

That's irrelevant. There's no text or message to be read here. They probably drew tits because tits. The worrying part is that you somehow derived a message that woman are decorations to be draped over men or scenery and nothing else from a superficial and cursory analysis of their appearance. None of that is implied anywhere. That's purely your own projections, which is the part I was hoping you'd realize on your own. Though I doubt you will even after I've pointed it out, seeing that you've already ignored -Axle- when he pointed out something similar to you.

So they drew 'tits for tits sake' doesn't say they viewed their female characters as decorations first, characters second?

Slycne:
I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

I could say the same to you here.
We're all well aware that the game has way exaggerated and sexualised depictions of women. Vanillaware games tend to have that. The point me and some others here are trying to make is that sexualised things aren't inherently negative. I don't think anyone here even tried to refute that the game has ridiculous shit in it.

Windknight:
So they drew 'tits for tits sake' doesn't say they viewed their female characters as decorations first, characters second?

Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.

Denamic:

Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.

I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. We have porn for when we want to look at naked girls, why do we need it in video games too?

DugMachine:

ObsidianJones:
snip

My train of thought is that while there are women who want bigger breasts out there, breasts themselves don't empower you in any way physically. Muscles though make you stronger, more resilient. You look tough and like you've put a lot of work into building those muscles. With said muscles, in a fantasy setting, you can fight anyone and anything.

Some women find really muscular men attractive, no denying that but I'd bet money that when the developers were designing characters they were not thinking of them. I see where you're coming from but I just don't see muscular male characters designed with female's fetishes in mind.

[/quote]

I think that this whole "fuck-huge pectorals = strength" idea partially comes from the general public's misunderstanding of fantasy vs reality.

Because the guys with the *biggest* and most defined muscles are not the strongest. And the strongest men in the world do not look particularly large or fit, partially because they have a much higher fat content than the dudes that go in bodybuilding competitions.

Here's the strongest man in the world:

image
Link in case hotlinking doesn't work:
http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2010/Sep/Behdad_Salimi_Wins_the_Supers_at_the_World_Weightlifting_Championships.html

image

Now compare that fatass to your bodybuilders or Mr. Universe competitors, like Arnold Scharzenhager:

While plenty of high school jocks would like to look like the latter, the average guy certainly wouldn't want to look like that, since they understand that it isn't all that sexually appealing to females compared to a 'normal' fit athlete like a soccer player or fit-as-opposed-to-buff football player, and that size does not equate to strength.

What I don't understand is why many females don't understand that the sorceress is as much a male sexual fantasy as the dwarf is a female one: Both are very heavy and grotesque exaggerations of what males or females would want in real life (that is, to look sexually appealing). Only fetishists would consider her breasts or his pecs attractive.

erttheking:

Denamic:

Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.

I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. Porn is the place for wanting to look at naked girls, why should we have it in video games too?

Hello Mr. Strawman. I used porn as an example, it does not mean the game has porn in it, but let's roll with it. Now I can't comment on the characters in this particular game yet, but I think it's fair to use Odin's Sphere as an analogue in this case. Specifically Velvet. Like the women in this game, she's exaggeratedly sexualised. Yet she also has a well crafted personality and an interesting backstory that ties into the events of the game. In other words, sexualisation and good characterisation are not mutually exclusive.

As to why we 'should' have sexualised shit in games? That's a nonsense question. Why should we not? Because some people don't like it? Other people like it, so it's a moot point. That type of question can cover everything in any game ever. Why have games at all? Some people don't like that, even think they're all harmful.

Anyway, this argument is probably over for me now. I'm getting tired of it, and it is 3am.

^So...you like 2 or 3 games, at the most?
MOST video games have horrid characters, when it comes to stories and personalities, male AND female.

Also remember THIS:

Yeah...I don't really recall everyone losing their shit over THAT picture.

Denamic:

erttheking:

Denamic:

Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.

I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. Porn is the place for wanting to look at naked girls, why should we have it in video games too?

Hello Mr. Strawman. I used porn as an example, it does not mean the game has porn in it. Now I can't comment on the characters in this particular game yet, but I think it's fair to use Odin's Sphere as an analogue in this case. Specifically Velvet. Like the women in this game, she's exaggeratedly sexualised. Yet she also has a well crafted personality and an interesting backstory that ties into the events of the game. In other words, sexualisation and good characterisation are not mutually exclusive.

As to why we 'should' have sexualised shit in games? That's a nonsense question. Why should we not? Because some people don't like it? Other people like it, so it's a moot point. That type of question can cover everything in any game ever. Why have games at all? Some people don't like that, even think they're all harmful.

Anyway, this argument is probably over for me now. I'm getting tired of it, and it is 3am.

Ok, I misunderstood what you said in the post before and I apologize for that.

Why shouldn't we have it in video games? Look, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be in video games, sorry if it came off as so, but the thing is that frankly it just looks stupid and more often than not it ends up being immersion breaking. I'm not saying that you can't like it, I'm saying that I don't like it and a lot of women don't like it.

*Sigh* This argument has gotten out of hand, I don't even remember what we're arguing about. Sorry if I seemed like a jerk.

erttheking:
Ok, I misunderstood what you said in the post before and I apologize for that.

Why shouldn't we have it in video games? Look, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be in video games, sorry if it came off as so, but the thing is that frankly it just looks stupid and more often than not it ends up being immersion breaking. I'm not saying that you can't like it, I'm saying that I don't like it and a lot of women don't like it.

That's fine. Yeah, as I've said earlier in the thread, I can see that people may not like it. Personally, I don't dislike it, but neither am I overly fond of it. I prefer mild exaggeration over heavy exaggeration. I do love the aesthetics in general though. Different folks, different strokes. All I'm trying to get across is that while I am aware there is legitimate criticism to be brought against this sort of thing, it's all too common that people overlook a lot of facts that's right in front of them in favour of superficial and heavily flawed criticism.

Anyway, I'm done for realsies now. I'm going to ban myself from typing anything until I've slept.

I've had a passing interest in the Beat 'Em Up genre and the visuals do look pretty...
Who knows? Maybe this'll make for a nice introduction into the genre for me. Will probably have to wait by years end before I get it but by that time it'll have dropped in price anyway!

When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.

Tanis:
Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.

Since no one(especially the reviewer, strangely) has answered, the only thing we have to go on was the video, which did show a full party fighting various bosses, and it seemed to be pretty smooth to me.

And thank god for that too, if the lag hadn't been fixed, I was going to pass cause it made Odin Sphere unplayable for me.

piinyouri:

Tanis:
Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.

Since no one(especially the reviewer, strangely) has answered, the only thing we have to go on was the video, which did show a full party fighting various bosses, and it seemed to be pretty smooth to me.

And thank god for that too, if the lag hadn't been fixed, I was going to pass cause it made Odin Sphere unplayable for me.

I didn't notice any lag issues. Rarely the game had difficulty connecting to the servers, but that's all I encountered.

Windknight:

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

Yeah muscled men do embody positive traits, but lets not pretend they aren't fetishised and ridiculous as well. All these characters are deformed and sexualized; we just happen to place good qualities on the male designs alongside with the bad. That's not exactly the fault of the artist, though. If the artist went through the effort to make the females more... normal looking(?) they would then be out of place alongside the "living tumors" that the males appear to be. At the end of the day, it was a lose/lose situation.

It is a very pretty game, which can go a long way to winning me over // I got a feel of Diablo III from the button mashing game play but that is not a bad thing // This may go on the "One day I could get this game if it was on sale" list

-M

Nasrin:

piinyouri:

Tanis:
Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.

Since no one(especially the reviewer, strangely) has answered, the only thing we have to go on was the video, which did show a full party fighting various bosses, and it seemed to be pretty smooth to me.

And thank god for that too, if the lag hadn't been fixed, I was going to pass cause it made Odin Sphere unplayable for me.

I didn't notice any lag issues. Rarely the game had difficulty connecting to the servers, but that's all I encountered.

Thank you for answering! ^^

To clarify, we aren't talking about lag in connections while online, but rather the game's frame rates going down drastically simply because of all the stuff going on on-screen compounded by the super high quality of the sprites.

Boss fights in Odin Sphere were like power point presentations sometimes.

KissingSunlight:
When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.

No. That isn't what this is about at all. There's a difference between a character choosing to wear revealing clothing, and an IRL person choosing to do so. One had the choice made by someone else, the other made the choice herself. Also, no one is shaming anyone for liking the game, they're just criticizing the game itself.

Also, I checked with my friend, she finds it creepy when a character is too objectified, regardless of the gender of the artist. Objectified to the point where the character isn't a character but a walking sex object.

To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".

This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that exists above sea level.

CBanana:
To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".

Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to the final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish, stop getting offended by anything that breathes/moves, and just let artists create whatever fantasy/art they like without having their moral status questioned.

erttheking:

KissingSunlight:
When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.

No. That isn't what this is about at all. There's a difference between a character choosing to wear revealing clothing, and an IRL person choosing to do so. One had the choice made by someone else, the other made the choice herself. Also, no one is shaming anyone for liking the game, they're just criticizing the game itself.

Also, I checked with my friend, she finds it creepy when a character is too objectified, regardless of the gender of the artist. Objectified to the point where the character isn't a character but a walking sex object.

A character is fiction. Someone would have to write or draw what they wear. So, people who want any excuse to complain about objectification in video games, movies, books, etc. will have carte blanche to do so. Except for men who want to complain about how they are depicted in the media. Because, "Shut up! It's not the same."

Yuuki:
This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that is above sea level.

This makes about as much sense as labeling your post "This post is being done by a Men's Right Activist". Your usage of feminist as a perjorative does indicate you're engaging in the Ad Hominem logical fallacy. Simply put, you're arguing that that her opinions should be dismissed because of their source.

Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to the final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish, stop getting offended by anything that breathes/moves, and just let artists create whatever fantasy/art they like without having their moral status questioned.

You completely missed my point in that you can't really use the bare chested buff guys as proof that men and women are equally exploited. As for Tera Online (the game in the clip), even within that game, the fanservice is heavily skewed towards the male gaze of female characters and overall, we're light years away from anything approaching a gender equal portrayal of fanservice.

Yuuki:
This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that is above sea level.

CBanana:
To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".

Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to my final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish and just enjoy art for art's sake.

"This reviewer has slightly criticized this game based on it's art, while still saying it's pretty great looking! They must be an evil feminist!"

Ever stop to think, maybe people just don't like the character art? And that's why people "aren't enjoying the art"?
Ya know, because they don't like it. Like every real person who doesn't like something, and not some made up strawman feminist.

Anyway, game does look quite beautiful. May pick it up at some point.

KissingSunlight:

erttheking:

KissingSunlight:
When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.

No. That isn't what this is about at all. There's a difference between a character choosing to wear revealing clothing, and an IRL person choosing to do so. One had the choice made by someone else, the other made the choice herself. Also, no one is shaming anyone for liking the game, they're just criticizing the game itself.

Also, I checked with my friend, she finds it creepy when a character is too objectified, regardless of the gender of the artist. Objectified to the point where the character isn't a character but a walking sex object.

A character is fiction. Someone would have to write or draw what they wear. So, people who want any excuse to complain about objectification in video games, movies, books, etc. will have carte blanche to do so. Except for men who want to complain about how they are depicted in the media. Because, "Shut up! It's not the same."

When was the last time a man did complain how his gender was depicted in media? I'm not saying that they're depicted flawlessly in media, but people only ever claim that they're sexist or objectified when the whole sexism debate against women gets brought up, and usually as a counter point against those who are trying to argue about sexism against women in the industry.

The problems with the depiction of women in the industry and the depiction of men in the industry are commonly said that they're different because they more or less are. The situations just aren't the same.

Yuuki:
This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that exists above sea level.

Yep, someone a little put off by every female thing in the game having their sex appeal ramped up for the sake of fanservice reviewing that game is the exact same thing as someone reviewing something they're completely ignorant of.

But, I have to know, is it just this game, or any video game with scantily clad women for the sake of lazy, childish fanservice (what a list that would be!) that feminists just simply can't review without the need for a warning about their apparent ignorance?

CBanana:
To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".

Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to the final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish, stop getting offended by anything that breathes/moves, and just let artists create whatever fantasy/art they like without having their moral status questioned.

It's always nice to be told that ubiquitous tit-armor, blatant fanservice in the form of barely dressed women and ridiculous proportions, and reported attempts to keep female protagonists from existing (or be in a straight relationship that might make the mens feel awkward), among other things I'm forgetting at the moment aren't sexism.

Even better to be told that I should no longer be offended by something regardless of whether or not it actually offends me, because poor artists would then have to deal with criticism of the messages and implications of their work.

erttheking:

KissingSunlight:

erttheking:

No. That isn't what this is about at all. There's a difference between a character choosing to wear revealing clothing, and an IRL person choosing to do so. One had the choice made by someone else, the other made the choice herself. Also, no one is shaming anyone for liking the game, they're just criticizing the game itself.

Also, I checked with my friend, she finds it creepy when a character is too objectified, regardless of the gender of the artist. Objectified to the point where the character isn't a character but a walking sex object.

A character is fiction. Someone would have to write or draw what they wear. So, people who want any excuse to complain about objectification in video games, movies, books, etc. will have carte blanche to do so. Except for men who want to complain about how they are depicted in the media. Because, "Shut up! It's not the same."

When was the last time a man did complain how his gender was depicted in media? I'm not saying that they're depicted flawlessly in media, but people only ever claim that they're sexist or objectified when the whole sexism debate against women gets brought up, and usually as a counter point against those who are trying to argue about sexism against women in the industry.

The problems with the depiction of women in the industry and the depiction of men in the industry are commonly said that they're different because they more or less are. The situations just aren't the same.

I think it's a fair counterpoint. If people are going to complain how women are dressed in videogames(because these women don't chose that outfit for themselves.) Then men have a right to speak up and say "What about these absurdly muscular men that are barely dressed?"

You are right that video games are made and marketed to a male audience. The most effective way to get companies to make and market to women is to support games that appeal to women. Most of the time the complaints about how women are depicted in games comes off as sexual shaming.

Yuuki:
This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that exists above sea level.

CBanana:
To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".

Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to the final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish, stop getting offended by anything that breathes/moves, and just let artists create whatever fantasy/art they like without having their moral status questioned.

Um, first of all it won't really "happen to men too" until something like this happens.

http://g33kp0rn.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/1367286878401.jpg

Second of all, I have to commend that game. You see, it does sexy characters right. It's not overblown sexualized characters that frankly are just laughable, they're just people that happen to look fairly sexy. See, if you want to have female characters that are sexy, do it that way. Just to clarify, doing it right.

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Samus.Aran_.full_.227697.jpg

Doing it wrong.

http://www.60-fps.com/60fps/wp-content/gallery/sexy-female-characters/tera_high-elf.jpg

KissingSunlight:
I think it's a fair counterpoint. If people are going to complain how women are dressed in videogames(because these women don't chose that outfit for themselves.) Then men have a right to speak up and say "What about these absurdly muscular men that are barely dressed?"

You are right that video games are made and marketed to a male audience. The most effective way to get companies to make and market to women is to support games that appeal to women. Most of the time the complaints about how women are depicted in games comes off as sexual shaming.

I'm sorry, but it just isn't the same. You will encounter countless people who will say that this is sexy.

image

You will be hard pressed to find someone who says that this is sexy.

image

More often than not, female characters are put in skimpy clothing purely for the titillation of male viewers. Now, there are some good female characters with skimpy clothing, like Poison Ivy who's main weapon is seducing people, or Bayonetta, who my female friend loves to death because of how awesome she is and how much she parodies the concept of fan service, but that's the thing. Them dressing in skimpy clothing has a point, it's a part of their character. 9 times out of 10, a character isn't wearing skimpy clothing because it adds to the story or is a part of who they are. They're there for the sake of putting boobs on display. And frankly it's just classless. And really, the same thing doesn't happen to men. 300 wasn't designed to appeal to women.

The same thing just doesn't happen to men. Kratos runs around in a loincloth all the time, but he is nowhere near a sex fantasy, is a power fantasy 100%. And no, no one is trying to shame people for being sexual. The difference between sex shaming and this is criticizing a couple for having sex, and criticizing a couple for having sex where everyone else can see them. There's a time and place for it, and more often than not, games put it in where it isn't appropriate.

Both genders are barely dressed. Yet, you are saying, women being barely dressed is bad, because it makes men think of impure thoughts. Since games are being marketed to men. Any barely dressed man is a power fantasy. Women find different body types sexy as much as men do. I think a good example is sports. It's an activity that is marketed to men. Yes, it is a power fantasy for males. Yet, you can't deny that women do find athletes sexy.

The point I guess I'm making is that the energy spent on criticizing men liking video games with barely dressed women could be spent on more effective ways on achieving your goals. Like I mentioned before, buying only games that are positive towards women. Also, bigger issues like women health care clinics being shut down by religious fanatics.

KissingSunlight:
Both genders are barely dressed. Yet, you are saying, women being barely dressed is bad, because it makes men think of impure thoughts. Since games are being marketed to men. Any barely dressed man is a power fantasy. Women find different body types sexy as much as men do. I think a good example is sports. It's an activity that is marketed to men. Yes, it is a power fantasy for males. Yet, you can't deny that women do find athletes sexy.

The point I guess I'm making is that the energy spent on criticizing men liking video games with barely dressed women could be spent on more effective ways on achieving your goals. Like I mentioned before, buying only games that are positive towards women. Also, bigger issues like women health care clinics being shut down by religious fanatics.

I'm sorry, the same argument could be directed right back at you. Men face some real problems in the world. Female on male abuse is rarely reported because of the social stigma that men are supposed to be strong and women not so much.

CBanana:
This makes about as much sense as labeling your post "This post is being done by a Men's Right Activist". Your usage of feminist as a perjorative does indicate you're engaging in the Ad Hominem logical fallacy. Simply put, you're arguing that that her opinions should be dismissed because of their source.

Oh, the reviewer is female. I couldn't really tell the first time I saw the name (my fault)...I take back everything I said about the review title being misleading and all that stuff about feminists. Since the reviewer is female I have zero issues with any criticism she has for female character design, I have nothing to add/argue. The final 3-star verdict is fair, I stand corrected in that aspect. Didn't really mean to raise the roof about it :(

CBanana:
You completely missed my point in that you can't really use the bare chested buff guys as proof that men and women are equally exploited. As for Tera Online (the game in the clip), even within that game, the fanservice is heavily skewed towards the male gaze of female characters and overall, we're light years away from anything approaching a gender equal portrayal of fanservice.

But at least it's a step towards change. As long as it goes towards making things "fair" i.e. give all artists the ability to have endless scope for freedom with BOTH genders without over-sensitive people waving the sexism flag. For me even a small change is a good change, games like Dragon's Crown and TERA are heading in the right direction by establishing that there is always room for all art styles.

LifeCharacter:
Yep, someone a little put off by every female thing in the game having their sex appeal ramped up for the sake of fanservice reviewing that game is the exact same thing as someone reviewing something they're completely ignorant of.

But, I have to know, is it just this game, or any video game with scantily clad women for the sake of lazy, childish fanservice (what a list that would be!) that feminists just simply can't review without the need for a warning about their apparent ignorance?

There's definitely games which have scantily clad women for the sake of lazy, childish fanservice, and I believe they have a right to exist just as much as any other form of media. Criticizing a fanservice-driven game for having fanservice is like criticizing a gnome for being short, it's totally valid but will ultimately fall on deaf ears. So criticize away, but don't act surprised when it doesn't stop because it will continue to exist as long as the audience/market exists. It's a bit like drugs, but with the huge difference of being completely legal, fictional and therefore harmless :)
Now considering what I just said, I don't think Dragon's Crown is a game that is going for blatant fanservice out of sheer laziness. That is simply an insult to what the developers have put into this game and this has already been discussed to death in previous Dragon's Crown controversy threads. The devs have tried to keep the over-sexualisation balanced across the male characters and female characters, the art style is consistent with the theme/setting/gameplay elements of the game, they have gone for a retro nostalgia factor and succeeded. Calling it lazy fanservice strikes me as lazy criticism :)

Anyway as I stated above, the reviewer is female and I have no problems with her marking the game down for the female character design. It is normal.

erttheking:

KissingSunlight:
Both genders are barely dressed. Yet, you are saying, women being barely dressed is bad, because it makes men think of impure thoughts. Since games are being marketed to men. Any barely dressed man is a power fantasy. Women find different body types sexy as much as men do. I think a good example is sports. It's an activity that is marketed to men. Yes, it is a power fantasy for males. Yet, you can't deny that women do find athletes sexy.

The point I guess I'm making is that the energy spent on criticizing men liking video games with barely dressed women could be spent on more effective ways on achieving your goals. Like I mentioned before, buying only games that are positive towards women. Also, bigger issues like women health care clinics being shut down by religious fanatics.

I'm sorry, the same argument could be directed right back at you. Men face some real problems in the world. Female on male abuse is rarely reported because of the social stigma that men are supposed to be strong and women not so much.

This is why I hate having online discussion anymore. You couldn't take an agreement for an answer. You couldn't meet me half way and agree with me on some of my points. Like even though Kratos wasn't designed to be a sex object. Yet, some women will find him sexually appealing. Not all, some. I don't find the woman in Dragon's Crown sexy. If I saw her in real life, I would be concerned about her back.

The ridicule men receive from reporting abuse from women is intense. That is the burden of being a man. We have to take it like a man. It's not right. It's the way it is. Anyway, people who were offended by big breasts were the ones who brought this issue up. Not men who have been abused by women.

RaikuFA:

rbstewart7263:
I think we can add this to the list of "overblown controversies" right alongside the tomb raider "OMG He caressed her leg WITHOUT PERMISSION!!" scandal and the ken levine box art fracaus.

That bitter nonsense aside I cant wait to play this Ive always loved vanillaware games.

Actually, XSEED is now refusing to localize Senran Kagura due to fear of being attacked by Kotaku or the rest of the gaming media.

that's unfortunately to be expected. If you thought Dragon's Crown was bad, Senran Kagura is made as both fanservice and action (not sure what got priority). At least the people in Dragon's Crown are believed to be adults; you will have a hard time with characters with a chest like the sorceress on teenagers.

shame, heard the characters are actually both funny and decent

Much like other Vanillaware games I'm not sure if I want the game or just an art book of the game.

Disregarding the "skimpy" issue, these character designs apart from the Elf and the Wizard dude just creep me the fuck out!
It's always good to exaggerate your character designs to a degree, but for Christ's sake keep it balanced. Most of the characters in this game look like they're suffering from elephantiasis. This amount of body horror would make David Cronenberg blush.

As for the actual game... Odin Sphere was okay, but monotony set in pretty soon. I don't know how this game compares to that.

Windknight:

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

Another difference: A game character is just that; a character. No matter how multi-dimentional, it does not hold the facets that a real personality does. I'll say that, for me, that's grounds not to sweat this situation TOO much.

Slycne:
I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Oh. OHHHHHHHH. -giggle-

On a serious note, I do want to ask; Isn't the 'fantasy' genre the right home for this kind of tripe?

Ma'idah's 'regressive' comment sparked this, but considering not only the tag 'fantasy', I.E. 'in your mind', but also the time period that fantasy usually draws from (I'll shoot for around medieval), it wasn't a friendly and pure place, and it wasn't like how fairy tales and kids games would like us to imagine it as. Not going to get deep into it (cuz I'm too lazy to research), but I think the 'myth' of, say, the alluring sorceress (by spell or not) or the sexually repressed nun have some roots in the time period presented.

Surely it doesn't stand in the contemporary mindset, but realize (or at least pretend) you also go BACK in time in this of genre.

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