Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown

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Goliath100:
I never gonna get the crying of low scores in a system where the numbers means next to nothing. Can someone tell me the difference between a 8.5 and a 9.0?

6.5: This website gave it a 6.5, let's moan at it.
7.0: I've seen better reviews in Mtv
7.5: Why does this games need (insert lacking and possibly needless feature here) just because (insert game that does) has it?
8.0 You drink your cereal with tears instead of milk.
8.5: Your cereal taste salty out of your fanboy tears.
9.0: A single tear in your coffee makes little difference for those around you, but it does for you.
9.5: GOTY
10: That other website gave it a 6.5, let's moan at it, back to 6.5

Chessrook44:

Goliath100:
I never gonna get the crying of low scores in a system where the numbers means next to nothing. Can someone tell me the difference between a 8.5 and a 9.0?

0.5.

No, really, I'm not trying to be clever. In all honesty there's no difference between them except one is slightly higher.

....ok maybe I'm trying to be a little clever.

Ok, what criterias are the difference between 8.0 and 9.0 then.

Monxeroth:

Chessrook44:

shirkbot:

You know, I don't have much faith in humanity left, and things like this chip away at the remainder a little more every day. I hate the internet. Almost as much as I love TVTropes.

Dear God, if that's true stay far away from NotAlwaysRight. That little bit of faith will go flying out the window.

Was there any to have in the first place?

Yes, when you were young. Or innocent. Or actually met smart and helpful people, what terribly few there are.

This is one of those well duh episodes, it's not like fans who do this are ever going to change their mind just because you made a video.

I do think that you can complain about a review if its factually wrong or contradicts something that the reviewer said before.

Mulberry:
So... the game scored 6.5/10, or 65%, in one review. It scored more than half marks. And this is a *bad* thing?

This is why numerical quantification of a subjective opinion is useless.

Well of course it is seeing as how its only really judged by my own set of standards, completely different from your own for example.
My 6 could be your 10 and vice vers and my 10 wouldnt even exist on your radar or be maybe a 22 out of 10.

I dont believe in that ridiculous simplified equation that a complex subjective opinion can be summarized in a single number out of many other numbers.

themilo504:
This is one of those well duh episodes, it's not like fans who do this are ever going to change their mind just because you made a video.

I do think that you can complain about a review if its factually wrong or contradicts something that the reviewer said before.

I dont even think its made with that purpose in mind but ok.

Yes, you can, and you should, something that Jim does from time to time

Goliath100:

Chessrook44:

Goliath100:
I never gonna get the crying of low scores in a system where the numbers means next to nothing. Can someone tell me the difference between a 8.5 and a 9.0?

0.5.

No, really, I'm not trying to be clever. In all honesty there's no difference between them except one is slightly higher.

....ok maybe I'm trying to be a little clever.

Ok, what criterias are the difference between 8.0 and 9.0 then.

Still pretty much the same thing. Really, different places judge things differently. Some reviewers put everything on a four-point scale, wherin even a 7 is not that great and 6 or lower is WORST GAME EVER. Which I personally think is due to school where anything less than a 65% was an F... but I digress.

It's rare when you see a reviewer that actually considers 5 to actually be "Average". Most ofter 8 is Average, more or less. Or 4, if it's a 1-5 star rating. It's really quite frustrating, and why number-based ratings systems aren't really always that great.

So yeah. All I can really say is "The difference is one point. What does that one point mean? F@*$ if I know."

So this Danielle Riendeau is the One Chosen by the Planet? All for a dissenting opinion on a popular game? Man, Sephiroth must be kicking himself right now! He didn't have to kill Aerith and summon Meteor, he just had to say Final Fantasy VI was crap!

I was laughing through most of the video thanks to the opening. I think the epic music helped.

I don't know whether to praise you for saying things like this, or just feel sad that people don't seem to understand basic common sense.

I realize people go looking for excuses about bias and politics and shills to devalue reviews they don't like both positive and negative, but given Dragon's Crown is a game that came to the light of the internet by way of controversy, it may be more valid here. To me, criticism is about trying to acknowledge what a work is trying to be and determining how well it meets that goal, which is different from simply being critical which is going on about how you don't like some aspect due to your own hangups. Being fair to a product is about being able to take a step back and say, this might not be made for me and I shouldn't act like it should be. I fully understand not liking the art style, but unless it's poorly executed or would be detracting to someone not offending by it, it should not be given much credence in your review or score. Feel free to op/ed something, but a review should be about what it wants to be, not what you want it to be. Note, this applies the opposite way. Please watch how much you gush over something that hits all your personal like buttons as reviews aren't helped by drooling fanboys trying to elevate flawed works to ideal status.

I like how Dynasty Warriors is finding its way into every video now.

I don't know if you're framing your argument to include it or it just fits perfectly into every discussion about the industry XD

Also, agreed on all points made. Part of the reason why I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them.

Oh Dragon's Crown, you just never seem to catch a break. First it's a bunch of people crying foul over the overly sexual depiction women and now your fans are foaming at the mouth over some random person from Polygon giving you a 6.5/10. Perhaps it was a good thing that I took Yahtzee's comment on scores to heart ("I don't believe in scores because I believe a complex, personal opinion can't be represented numerically"). No offense to you Jim, I am aware you personally enjoy using scores.

But people really ought to stop giving a flying rat's ass over one lower score than the majority, especially for a game like Dragon's Crown. I already knew I was going to buy and love the game from the first time it was announced those few years ago. No score would ever deter me from buying it or detract from my enjoyment of it. If games are to be "art" then they are to be subjective. Some will like it, others will hate it. Hell, Kamitani never even raised a fuss when people raised an eyebrow over his artstyle before (he once mentioned his wife and editor were "aghast" when he drew Momohime fighting a giant squid for Muramasa) and likely only raised an issue with Schrier over the "14-year old boy" insult.

So bottom line, just like what you like (within limits of course). Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to wait out the last 16 hours before the game is in my hands XD.

Mulberry:
So... the game scored 6.5/10, or 65%, in one review. It scored more than half marks. And this is a *bad* thing?

This is why numerical quantification of a subjective opinion is useless.

60% is a failing grade for a reason. Average is considered by many, including the educations system, 70%. Very few people think of 50% as average. So, yes, a 6.5 is considered a very bad score. Also, if you take a random sampling of game reviews you'll get somewhere around 7 to 7.5 as the average score. Right or Wrong, it is how a lot of people think.

Fappy:
I like how Dynasty Warriors is finding its way into every video now.

I don't know if you're framing your argument to include it or it just fits perfectly into every discussion about the industry XD

Also, agreed on all points made. Part of the reason why I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them.

Well that depends on if there is a "correct" use of them and if youre already sitting on it then it would be nice to have that proper use of scores presented as part of your argument, would that be possible maybe :U?

As much as I think the actual art is amazing (the hand drawn sprites really look great), the fact they they hypersexualized the female aspects of the game aren't helping us. Although I'm aware of the exaggerations also given to the male characters, it doesn't matter: it still gives ammo to anyone or any media outlet who wishes to portray us as basement dwellers who get our rocks off through video games. The "video games are nothing but sex and violence" crowd.

StormShaun:
The facehugger attacks once again. Jim, I fear that you never may escape Aliens: Colonial Marines.
... ever.
(Loved your Lets Play of the DLC by the way. :3)

*ahem*

Now onto the topic at hand. It does feel that the gaming community is spoiled (In my opinion), games as you said that people complain and demand a '10/10' (Whatever 10/10 is these days. It feels like 10/10 should be impossible to achieve). It is annoying that the single bad review is gaining all of the press now instead of the praise.

Now in my opinion, the character design is the thing that turns me off this game. Call it satire, parody of how we portray gaming/RPG characters but ...

DVS BSTrD:
As unpleasant as it may be we're just going to have to accept the fact that cups of D just aren't everybody's cup of T.

As this guy says ... big bosoms are not not my thing.
BUT WAIT. I can just choose another character, the elf right?
Yeah true.

I guess I can't make my final opinion up until I played the damn game.
So I remain neutral on the subject.

Basically ... I agree with what you said.

...
...
Also I think "The Last of Us" deserves a seven.
Just to troll people, I actually haven't played the game so once more I remain neutral on it.

Funny thing about the characters, from the reviews I've seen(even the positive ones) they sound like the lesser example of the games problem with titillation. I am getting the game soon, but I'd probably just be getting my hopes up to expect it to not be there in plenty.

As for todays topic, too games that have gotten A LOT of positive acclaim recently that I have played are Bioshock Infinite, and The Last of Us.

However, I did find one person who was able to give some really interesting criticisms of both games that I can't really argue as invalid. Campster, who makes the show Errant Signal.(Warning: If ya haven't played the games yet, he pretty much spoils everything about the games.)
That said, even though I actually agree with the criticisms, I still love both games just the same, if not more so now.

As for Dragon's Crown? I'm getting it with a friend, so hopefully that will help me enjoy the game more when I get it.

As always, thank God for you, Jim. =w= b

It's one thing when I find someone who disagrees with me on something. You can't make something for everyone, or something that everyone will enjoy. But then there are times when someone hates something, and I literally can not understand where they are coming from. I try as hard as I can, but I literally can't see their point of view, and that's when I start to get like the people who throw a hissy fit, just because someone doesn't "want to join in the party", so to speak. Either that or I just leave. It still bothers me, but at least I'm not constantly at odds with it.

well since the dw stuff i tend to ignore all reviews they may not like the game/series but i do
the only thing stopping from getting dragon's crown is does it have a decent length and decent sp

The way I see it, if you can't criticise something you say you love, you don't really love it. I love the hell out of City of Heroes even now it's shut down but I still have a list of criticisms for it (all the instanced missions were fairly repetitive, there were plenty of defunct zones and with all those instances the world felt fairly empty a lot of the time, not to mention a freaking high reward trial for level 1-5. level 10 - 15 would make sense but that trial was easy to power level and did a disservice to everything else in the game). How, after all, can you improve something without criticising it?

Speaking of 'not everyone has the same tastes as the majority', I don't care for The Last of Us and thought Uncharted 2 was massively over hyped. Not bad by any means, just not this legendary piece of software it's made out to be. On the other hand, Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts was a hell of a lot of fun for me, if mainly as a construction toy. It could have used some more interesting challenges as supposed to lots of races and collecting missions and a bit of platforming would have been nice.

It seems Jim didn't understand why people were objecting to this review. Basically people have to decide whether the good reviews or bad reviews are right about a game. So when people feel that a game only gets good reviews because it's a triple A game or bad reviews for petty reasons it's no surprise that people complain about this and only this.

A diversity of opinions in game reviews is only useful if they all raise valid points about whether a game is good or bad. When they praise or condemn a game for petty reasons then these reviews are of little benefit to anyone and undermine the validity of reviewing games.

Monxeroth:

Fappy:
I like how Dynasty Warriors is finding its way into every video now.

I don't know if you're framing your argument to include it or it just fits perfectly into every discussion about the industry XD

Also, agreed on all points made. Part of the reason why I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them.

Well that depends on if there is a "correct" use of them and if youre already sitting on it then it would be nice to have that proper use of scores presented as part of your argument, would that be possible maybe :U?

It's simple, really. Reviews are meant to inform consumers and help them decide whether or not to buy a product. It's not supposed to act as a means for people to validate their interests. Different sources of review represent different outlooks and not everyone's going to agree on what does and doesn't make a good game.

GAunderrated:

shirkbot:
Wait... This was actually a thing? People actually got bent out of shape enough over a single review, and do so on a regular enough basis, that Jim felt he should do an episode about this? ... Fantastic.

Yes what an odd world we live in that if someone doesn't agree with you on something, they feel offended and dedicate all their time to explaining why you should agree with their opinion.

Explaining is the euphemism we use nowadays for anonymously threatening to kidnap someone's children and burning them alive in an abandoned shed. This also happens on a regular basis.

Captcha: Stay safe. Thanks Internet.

Mumorpuger:
As much as I think the actual art is amazing (the hand drawn sprites really look great), the fact they they hypersexualized the female aspects of the game aren't helping us. Although I'm aware of the exaggerations also given to the male characters, it doesn't matter: it still gives ammo to anyone or any media outlet who wishes to portray us as basement dwellers who get our rocks off through video games. The "video games are nothing but sex and violence" crowd.

Funny thing about "ammo" in any medium: if people want to find things to be offended by, they will go and find it. Very, very easily in fact and no matter how grandiose or minuscule it is. I would also point out that Dragon's Crown is only in this "spotlight" because it is new. I imagine when the next entry in Grand Theft Auto or Saint's Row comes out they'll get the same claims of how "they're glorifying sex and violence". This isn't a new thing at all. Before games, it was movies. Before movies, it was books and paintings. It just doesn't end.

Fappy:

Monxeroth:

Fappy:
I like how Dynasty Warriors is finding its way into every video now.

I don't know if you're framing your argument to include it or it just fits perfectly into every discussion about the industry XD

Also, agreed on all points made. Part of the reason why I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them.

Well that depends on if there is a "correct" use of them and if youre already sitting on it then it would be nice to have that proper use of scores presented as part of your argument, would that be possible maybe :U?

It's simple, really. Reviews are meant to inform consumers and help them decide whether or not to buy a product. It's not supposed to act as a means for people to validate their interests. Different sources of review represent different outlooks and not everyone's going to agree on what does and doesn't make a good game.

Thats the definition of a review

"I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them"

Well, how are review SCORES supposed to be properly used if theyre subjective based?
Please present the correct way of having correct opinions please c: that shouldnt be too difficult right?

I want to get this game but my TV is bust(so cannot use ps3 atm) and its not on pc yet/not sure if ever? but will get it at some point soon :) haven't even read any reviews but know they're mostly positive and this looks like my sort of game... oh and i'm cool with the art style and boobs :P

The Escapist gave the game a 3 out of 5. Which makes it an average score. Where's the outrage there?

Windu23:
The Escapist gave the game a 3 out of 5. Which makes it an average score. Where's the outrage there?

They probably took their abject rage to another forum site to complain which is why you don't see it here.

It's reactions like this that are causing games not being taken seriously to come to a middle. Why do gamers get upset if every critic doesn't agree with them? When it comes to movies it's common for a movie that critics nearly universally hate to make decent box office. The people who spend that money on a "bad" movie don't get up in arms and demand that scores be changed. They just accept that sometimes the critics just don't "get it." But when it comes to games, it seems like any time a reviewer goes against the "perceived consensus of the hive-mind" the full force of fan ire must be brought to bear to correct their thinking. To an outsider this might come off as looking childish.

Thank you Jim. This is one of nerddom's most annoying aspects. I have two theories why this happens.

First off, nerds have a habit of basing their self-worth on the things they like (aka I like this cool thing so I am cool). If someone criticizes that thing, they respond as if that person has criticized them personally. This is why they try so hard to dismiss the criticism as invalid; they want their thing to be objectively "good" so they can be objectively good for liking it.

Secondly, nerds tend to like it when everything fits into neat numbers and patterns. This becomes a problem when applied to subjective things, like game reviews (and other people in general). If a review doesn't fit the common pattern that review must be invalid, because the pattern says that the game is objectively good/bad.

(also, Fun Fact: every single piece of writing on the internet was written in the hopes of attracting page-views, including all the positive Dragon's Crown reviews.)

Jimothy Sterling:

Hades:
So Jim, every time you mention Dynasty warriors 8 we get Zhang he on screen fighting against the yellow Turbans. Is he your favourite character?

He is.

I also captured over an hour of DW8 footage for Destructoid's video review and I'll be damned if I'm not gonna squeeze my money's worth out of it every time I mention the game.

Zhang He's cool but my favourite character has got to be Sima ''Mwahahaha'' Yi.

Monxeroth:

Fappy:

Monxeroth:

Well that depends on if there is a "correct" use of them and if youre already sitting on it then it would be nice to have that proper use of scores presented as part of your argument, would that be possible maybe :U?

It's simple, really. Reviews are meant to inform consumers and help them decide whether or not to buy a product. It's not supposed to act as a means for people to validate their interests. Different sources of review represent different outlooks and not everyone's going to agree on what does and doesn't make a good game.

Thats the definition of a review

"I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them"

Well, how are review SCORES supposed to be properly used if theyre subjective based?

Reviews are just as subjective as their scores.

How people interpret review scores should be no different than how they do so with the reviews themselves:

"Different sources of review represent different outlooks and not everyone's going to agree on what does and doesn't make a good game."

A score in a vacuum tells you very little and should only be used to inform a consumer whether or not they should buy a product at a glance. I feel like I am repeating myself when I say that people shouldn't use scores to validate their interest in something. Just because someone gave your favorite game a 2 it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it yourself.

Please present the correct way of having correct opinions please c: that shouldnt be too difficult right?

I don't remember ever stating there was any right way to writing a review or generating a score if that's what you're implying.

EDIT: The foundation of my argument is basically that review scores should be used as a consumer tool/aid, not a means in which people can seek validation for their fandom.

Fappy:

Monxeroth:

Fappy:

It's simple, really. Reviews are meant to inform consumers and help them decide whether or not to buy a product. It's not supposed to act as a means for people to validate their interests. Different sources of review represent different outlooks and not everyone's going to agree on what does and doesn't make a good game.

Thats the definition of a review

"I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them"

Well, how are review SCORES supposed to be properly used if theyre subjective based?

Reviews are just as subjective as their scores.

How people interpret review scores should be no different than how they do so with the reviews themselves:

"Different sources of review represent different outlooks and not everyone's going to agree on what does and doesn't make a good game."

A score in a vacuum tells you very little and should only be used to inform a consumer whether or not they should buy a product at a glance. I feel like I am repeating myself when I say that people shouldn't use scores to validate their interest in something. Just because someone gave your favorite game a 2 it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it yourself.

Please present the correct way of having correct opinions please c: that shouldnt be too difficult right?

I don't remember ever stating there was any right way to writing a review or generating a score if that's what you're implying.

and i dont remember making such a statement that accused you of doing that i simply asked you to elaborate and explain your: "I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them"

Implying the fact that you most likely have a proper use in mind of generating review scores, a statement im highly interested in and would like to know how such a thing would be possible.

TheProfessor234:
Might just be me, but I always feel better if there is negative criticism about something, or rather, two or multiple sides to something.

I don't know how to explain it but I always get a weird feeling if something is highly loved by every single person.

I feel exactly the same. My feeling is that there's no such thing as a perfect game. When I see games get perfect scores I get very suspicious. Adam Sessler gave Bioshock infinite and Last of Us a 5/5. They are great games but they both certainly have problems and in his review of Infinite, in particular, he spoke about the game as if it had no flaws whatsoever

All this bother about Polygon.

I mean who are Polygon and why should I care what they say?

Don't answer that, it was rhetorical. Except the care part 'cause I don't.

Monxeroth:

Implying the fact that you most likely have a proper use in mind of generating review scores, a statement im highly interested in and would like to know how such a thing would be possible.

It seems you've misinterpreted my meaning. I suppose I could have been more clear, but I never meant to imply there was a correct way to generate a review score. When I say, "... how people misuse them" I am referring to how consumers/gamers interpret/use them.

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