Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown

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Fappy:

Monxeroth:

Implying the fact that you most likely have a proper use in mind of generating review scores, a statement im highly interested in and would like to know how such a thing would be possible.

It seems you've misinterpreted my meaning. I suppose I could have been more clear, but I never meant to imply there was a correct way to generate a review score. When I say, "... how people misuse them" I am referring to how consumers/gamers interpret/use them.

So then what is the correct way to properly make use (use that in the future, MAKE use) of review scores and interpret them :U?

Monxeroth:

Fappy:

Monxeroth:

Well that depends on if there is a "correct" use of them and if youre already sitting on it then it would be nice to have that proper use of scores presented as part of your argument, would that be possible maybe :U?

It's simple, really. Reviews are meant to inform consumers and help them decide whether or not to buy a product. It's not supposed to act as a means for people to validate their interests. Different sources of review represent different outlooks and not everyone's going to agree on what does and doesn't make a good game.

Thats the definition of a review

"I hate review scores is due to how people misuse them"

Well, how are review SCORES supposed to be properly used if theyre subjective based?
Please present the correct way of having correct opinions please c: that shouldnt be too difficult right?

Well the best use of number scores I know of is from SF Debris (Who is a Sci-fi reviewer who's mainstay is Star Trek) who uses them as a ranking system to compare to other episodes in the same series. (so a 5 for an Enterprise episode is not the same thing as 5 for an episode of TNG) It's about been able to say these are what I think are the best episodes and these are the worst not to measure some standard of "goodness"

Jim's own Destructiod includes a guide that explains what the numbers mean on there site. So there the numbers are just shorthand.

I think if your going to use number scores you need to give a context on what those numbers mean.

image gave it a 6.5

I'll never catch him again!

Monxeroth:

Fappy:

Monxeroth:

Implying the fact that you most likely have a proper use in mind of generating review scores, a statement im highly interested in and would like to know how such a thing would be possible.

It seems you've misinterpreted my meaning. I suppose I could have been more clear, but I never meant to imply there was a correct way to generate a review score. When I say, "... how people misuse them" I am referring to how consumers/gamers interpret/use them.

So then what is the correct way to properly make use (use that in the future, MAKE use) of review scores and interpret them :U?

I've explained that multiple times already:

Reviews are meant to inform consumers and help them decide whether or not to buy a product. It's not supposed to act as a means for people to validate their interests.

EDIT: Jim's episode outlined a perfect example of what happens when people use it the wrong way when he showed that screen cap of the NeoGAF forums.

Fappy:

Monxeroth:

Fappy:

It seems you've misinterpreted my meaning. I suppose I could have been more clear, but I never meant to imply there was a correct way to generate a review score. When I say, "... how people misuse them" I am referring to how consumers/gamers interpret/use them.

So then what is the correct way to properly make use (use that in the future, MAKE use) of review scores and interpret them :U?

I've explained that multiple times already:

Reviews are meant to inform consumers and help them decide whether or not to buy a product. It's not supposed to act as a means for people to validate their interests.

EDIT: Jim's episode outlined a perfect example of what happens when people use it the wrong way when he showed that screen cap of the NeoGAF forums.

Again you seem to have a problem interpreting.
I specifically asked for the SCORE
not the REVIEW itself, the SCORE is not the REVIEW, the score is the summary of the review, the review on the other hand is..well, the review.

Score =/= Review

Score can say something completely else than my review to someone. For example my review may be good but my score terrible, and vice versa so lets just try ONE MORE TIME here.

What is the correct way to properly make use of a review SCORE

How dare you give chocolate ice cream a 6.5/10? Chocolate ice cream is the ultimate example of how amazing the craft of ice cream making can be done. You are an idiot if you don't see chocolate ice cream's greatness so you must not be a true ice cream fan. Only a casual ice cream eater would say that chocolate ice cream is "not bad". You are exactly what is wrong with the ice cream industry.

see how silly it is when we do this with pretty much anything else?

Monxeroth:

Fappy:

Monxeroth:

So then what is the correct way to properly make use (use that in the future, MAKE use) of review scores and interpret them :U?

I've explained that multiple times already:

Reviews are meant to inform consumers and help them decide whether or not to buy a product. It's not supposed to act as a means for people to validate their interests.

EDIT: Jim's episode outlined a perfect example of what happens when people use it the wrong way when he showed that screen cap of the NeoGAF forums.

Again you seem to have a problem interpreting.
I specifically asked for the SCORE
not the REVIEW itself, the SCORE is not the REVIEW, the score is the summary of the review, the review on the other hand is..well, the review.

Score =/= Review

Score can say something completely else than my review to someone. For example my review may be good but my score terrible, and vice versa so lets just try ONE MORE TIME here.

What is the correct way to properly make use of a review SCORE

I answered that question a few posts back: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.824314.19974330

The only difference in use between a full review and a score is that a score exists to inform your decision at a glance whereas a full review is a far more involved affair.

Also, if there's noticeable dissonance between a review and its score the reviewer did a poor job.

Initially, i saw this and just went meh... kids being kids and throwing tantrums, then i remembered

No Mutants Allowed.

Its just as likely to be Menchildren throwing tantrums.

Im a big fallout fan, been playing since fallout 1, but i have never mixed with or joined the fallout community that was NMA because it was a cesspit that embodied a single mindset. You said anything that went contrary to the collective fixed mindset... heaven help you.

My sister has told me there is a similar purist clique for the rockman series, as i am sure there are for many other franchises.

If games become art, then they are subject to people who are not gamers, and those people's opinions are every bit as valid as yours. The sooner you grow up and become reasonable, the sooner the points you are trying to make by screaming at the keyboard may be actually considered. Have a hissyfit or pull rank on your level of fandom against people who are casual gamers.... well then the hobby will never be taken seriously and will ultimately stagnate along side you in your parents basement.

I'm so excited about this game, I just drew this! :D

Having said that, yeah, some designs aren't to my taste...but to simply ingore the good cause there's a thing or two your tastes don't agree with is ignorant.

The reviewer ignores a lot of good art design, a whole lot of it, if she uses one the games' BEST features to justify her score of 65. (which is a D, if we go by exams, this game isn't a D)

Maybe there are folks out there who can't enjoy their beloved games because one bad review, hence their outrage. Who knows.

I certainly can't wrap my head around these phenomena. I have fond memories playing critically panned games (like Two Worlds) and that 6/10 The Witcher 2 score certainly didn't stop me having a blast.

What seems to have the folks who are upset in a tizzy is less that it got a less-than-stellar review and more that people are criticizing the game as conveying sexist shit with some of it's imagery. Which, of course, causes many to bemoan that the world is so "PC" (because treating people decently is so shitty), be accused of white knighting (because men can't possibly have interest in sexual/gender equality), and so on.

It's just your typical boys club bullshit combined with bratty fans crying that everyone in the world didn't spontaneously orgasm after the game finished loading.

I'm saying this as an excited fan of Dragon's Crown.

I guess I'm confused, they scored it a 6.5 . . . that's 1.5 above a 5, and to me a 5 means 'average' and average is not bad. There are many games I play and enjoy that I consider to be average. I'd never tell someone not to buy a game because it was average. And this is above average. Maybe I read the reviewers intent wrong, but a 6.5 is a good thing, right? It means despite their personal issues with several design decisions, they though it was still an above average experience.

Now, as to boobs and spread legs and suggestive positions? Fine. Keep em. I don't need them. I don't want them. But if that's a visual style you want to go with, fine.

Why?

I'm okay with any extreme, really, as long as it's happening to everyone in the game. I like variety. I'm okay with that game over there with very conservatively dressed and practically weaponed/armored characters of average to plain male or female body builds. I'm okay with this grossly exaggerated version with lots of exposed skin and suggestive poses and vastly oversized muscled and breasts. I'm okay with that game over there that turns male and female characters into petite pretty boys and girls that wear over the top outfits in garish colors no one would ever be caught did in. I'm okay with that game over there that makes all the male and female characters chibi sized cute characters with soft pastels everywhere. I'm okay with that grim dark and gritty game over there where everyone male and female is ugly, downtrodden and wearing whatever they could get. I'm okay with that dark gothic aesthetic filled with elegant unreal male and female characters that are almost too perfect and too graceful dressed in only the finest and most elegant of clothing. I'm okay with all these design choices and more.

Because I like variety. I don't want it all to be the same. And I don't want 'any' design choice made anathema because it might offend a few people. I like variety so that there are games for the people that like things other than what I like. I like variety so that I can have my game, and visuals I prefer, and you can have your game and visuals you prefer.

Me, I like the supposedly 'feminine' designs of the males in Final Fantasy games, that's always appealed to me far more than the big burly and ungodly muscled male characters or the grim gritty unshaven and utterly practices male characters. I even love the over the top and weird Final Fantasy outfits over those guys wearing a loin cloth or wearing practical armor or everyday clothes. I think the first time I ever heard someone ask why the Final Fantasy character couldn't wear normal jeans and T-shirt stuff I was at a loss for words, because why would I want that? There are games to get characters in normal jeans and T-shirts, they're all over the place. Why would you want to take that thing I like away?

Well, the same goes here. This game obviously isn't for everyone, but the second you start asking that its designs be taken away - just because you don't like them, for any reason - leaving the people that enjoy them with nothing is the second you should ask yourself how you'd feel if what you liked were taken away. Yes, there are games that have female characters that are not exploited, that do not show skin, that are not suggestive at every turn and that are utterly practical. Those games exist. So do these other games that do just the opposite. They both should exist. They both have a place. There are genres, not as popular in the west, that exploit male characters physically just as much. I don't personally like them, but I'd never call for them not to exist - someone obviously likes them, even if I don't . . . why should I call for that thing they enjoy to be taken away from them?

And there are people that seem to be calling for that, as if that games are the only thing that this happens in . . . when I can think of countless shows, movies and books that do the same. Games are a big thing to talk about now, of course, is why, and this happened to movies, and shows and books at one point or another too. Those times passed. They really should pass. As long as you're not actively, physically coming out and hurting someone you should be left to your presences, even if the visual style of those preferences isn't what everyone likes.

Jim, I know you do these mid-video parts so gifs will be made of you. I know you do it, and I want you to continue doing it.

Dragon's Crown looks like a ton of fun. Unfortunately I don't have a ps3 or vita to play it though. I love the art style and most of the character designs. The only character design I dislike that I've seen so far is the Amazon. Not because of the clothing (or lack-there-of), but because she just looks shitty IMO. What do I plan to do about that? Cry about my distaste for her design on the internet? Nah, I'll just play a different character if I play the game.

Polar opposite was with Dragon Age 2 where the game wasn't perfect, didn't have enough production time, and everyone condemned it to hell.

I got enjoyment out of Dragon Age 2. I won't replay it like I did with DA1... but gave me joy.

I also still like Pokemon.

I give this episode a 6

Personally I tend to give the reviews that are out of the median more credence than those that do. If a game has relatively low scores but one review gives it a fair bit higher I give it more weight and vice versa. The reason for this is because the person gives it a more critical eye usually. Ones that are in lockstep with one another tend to want to fit in or are a target of some other collusion effort so they are very muck in lock step with each other. Some of those you can tell they were given a bullet point of features, shown a little footage and told to write a review because they're largely the same.

Now how does it affect me? Ehh, marginally. Whether or not I agree with a particular review is irrelevant. I do base it on my own experiences but the oddball reviews do encourage me to look at it with a more critical eye more than anything.

As for the DC case, the reviews I've seen not giving it high scores do tend to focus as the art style as the cause. That's fine, art is subjective and so are reviews. The art style interests me (I've been a fan of the other games with this style) so I don't get upset over it. The reviewers aren't forcing me to play it or avoid it so I see it as what it is: their opinion.

Jimothy Sterling:

Hades:
So Jim, every time you mention Dynasty warriors 8 we get Zhang he on screen fighting against the yellow Turbans. Is he your favourite character?

He is.

I also captured over an hour of DW8 footage for Destructoid's video review and I'll be damned if I'm not gonna squeeze my money's worth out of it every time I mention the game.

Does 8 do anything new Jim? I stopped playing after 7 because I felt it was getting abit stale but... I do pine for the battle field.

OT: I really hate it when people hate on a reveiw, especially one thats genuine. In some respects, reveiwers could be coincidered artists and as such should be allowed to express themselves however they see fit. Personally, I like the look of Dragons Crown, the whole 'taking it to its extreme' has been done before but I like the look of the art. My sister on the other hand would be uncomfortable with the whole 'parody' aspect so I wouldn't expect her to like it, let alone play it.

Jim was not wearing the right glasses and he did not have his red tie on!! I DEMAND this episode be stricken from the site immediately!! He wears those every episode so he should always wear it!! Quit trolling us Jim!! It be like Yahtzee without his hat! UNACCEPTABLE!!

*my analogy of the topic

Ickabod:
I give this episode a 6

Check yourself before you wreck yourself fool!

Yeah.. people are way up in arms about Dragon's Crown. If someone doesn't even like the game because of specific things like the women's design in it- suddenly you're bashing the game and people will start to bash you. Pretty crazy overall.

I think the game personally looks fun, but it would be nice if I can also question the art style along the fact others can accept people liking the game regardless. Though, now people are getting up in arms because the game was rated a 6.5 on one website? Why must the game be praised by everyone for you to enjoy it? Personally a few people disliked Pacific Rim but I love that movie with a passion, it's my favorite of 2013.

The problem is in my opinion, that people fear if someone says a certain game/movie/book isn't good, then a lot of people will start disliking it too. Or perhaps that people will start questioning the game itself therefore it triggers some sort of defensive behavior. Who knows, but what I do know is that we all need to take a step back and accept the fact not everyone's going to like something, but we can still enjoy it. The other way around is just as true (I don't like the women's designs in Dragon's Crown, but do play it if you love the game anyways guys no one's stopping you from playing it.)

I haven't heard of that review until this Jimquisition. The reason these things get blown out of proportions is because there is always one more guy who has one more thing to say about it. That includes this episode. I liked most of them but this one felt pointless.

If people think that that site has biased reviews, then they can always stop using that site. That's what I eventually did with Gamespot more than a decade back, and it never bothered me since.

I'm also reminded of the bad reviews Postal 2 got back in its time. While it was far from perfect, it was very fun and innovative. It got very low scores because it offended several religions and political views. Very few people complained about it though.

Another great video Jim, and I agree with the points that you've raised, especially the "why cause a fuss over the bad review" point. The only thing I thought was missing was perhaps talking about the Atlus PR Manager who commented on the review, saying

Love the review, Danielle. It's a fair assessment and completely factual. I'm truly thankful that it was you who wrote it, and wouldn't even think of requesting you change a single letter. The comments from the game's supporters are definitely disheartening. It's ok to not like a game based on an art style, and Polygon is allowed to score the game however they feel necessary. It goes through multiple levels of editing before it's fully approved, and they're entitled to their own, informed opinion of the game. I urge you to please respect the Danielle's/Polygon's opinion and then form your own instead of trying to force your opinion on them.

A class act, in my opinion

shirkbot:
Wait... This was actually a thing? People actually got bent out of shape enough over a single review, and do so on a regular enough basis, that Jim felt he should do an episode about this? ... Fantastic.

It wasn't just that, the reviewer actually insulted the reader. That's something that should never have gotton past the editor. Hell, when Jim reviewed The Last Story, he gave it a 4, but said his review shouldn't deter people from enjoying it.

Also, it seems MS gives Polygon their checks. Which explains their TLoU review.

I love how Jim always shows Zhang He when he talks about Dynasty Warriors, he doesn't get enough love!

You can't have an adult conversation with people who are not adults.

Off topic, I know, but I'm going crazy trying to figure out where the sinister music in the bit with the face hugger is from. Sounds like it might be from a PS1 era final fantasy game, but I just can't place it. Help?

Meh, I say fuck 'em. Just because someone doesn't like a I game that I like (I like FFXIII...a lot...so there!), I feel no need to proselytize them into my world-view. It's perfectly okay for others to be different and have different tastes. Doesn't spoil my ability to enjoy the game one iota. The Universe has no obligation to conform to my ideals, and I am perfectly accepting and at harmony with this fact. In fact, I prefer it that way, because the Universe would be otherwise very boring if it did everything exactly as I expect and desire it to. There would be no surprise, nothing to look forward to or strive for. It's that little element of random that makes it interesting.

I'll be honest, I'm very much tempted to break my expense budget this month and go get this game, today, right now, in fact (it's only $50; I can probably deal with that), because I have a lot of interest in it, primarily because it harkens back to the old-school gaming days of my youth. Even further, I am most interested in playing the elf because I really like and prefer playing physical ranged characters (i.e. archers/rangers). The sorceress and her boobs blowing in the wind are comical and certainly cause me to chuckle (the videos of her are just so absurd, I can't help but laugh; however to me, her breasts are just images of a body part, nothing more and not the real thing), but she's otherwise uninteresting to me (in fact, to me, she looks like the worst playing character based on the trailers and previews). In fact, I'm pretty much not interested in any of the characters other than the elf simply because, as I said, I really like and prefer playing physical ranged characters.

EDIT: minor grammar corrections and word changes for clarity and emphasis.

EDIT: double post due to capcha system error.

I can personally say I've never dwelled on the scores given to games for long. I'd be like well that's pretty dumb if I saw a score I thought was out of line, then proceed to do something else with my day with in a minute of that. Regardless of how well it reviews or gets panned I'd already made up my mind I'd check out Dragon's crown. I love old school beat em ups and so I want to get it since it's up my alley. I know what I like and I don't usually need to have someone else tell me what I like for me to buy it. I just needed to know the game existed (I saw a screen shot months/a year back in a magazine and forgot about the game till Jim had a video about it to remind me it existed and like yeah I want that game still.)

When I'm sitting there playing a game I don't think man if only it didn't get a review that wad bad on one website I know about I could really enjoy this game fully....What form of madness is that. I enjoyed Revenge of the Fallen, if I felt I had to defend that film on every front on the web I'd never sleep. I saw people trolling it just because they felt like it; At some point I just shrugged and went well I don't have to have an opinion on everything, everywhere. I just make my voice heard on the handful of sites I think matter enough for me be a part of the community of, and if people hate something else where....have at it. Some websites are just hiveminds on whatever thought process and you aren't going change their views no matter how many 10 page rants you post. (believe me I've tried hehe.)

ineedscissors:
Off topic, I know, but I'm going crazy trying to figure out where the sinister music in the bit with the face hugger is from. Sounds like it might be from a PS1 era final fantasy game, but I just can't place it. Help?

Final Fantasy 7 I believe.

Earthfield:
People defending DC: Ignore boobs,talk about gameplay.
People who hated it: Ignore gameplay, talk about boobs.

I feel in the eye of the hurricane now, but I'm still getting this, my only question now is if I should get this on PS3 or Vita.

Maybe I should do a comic about this...

I don't think anyones hated it because of boobs.

been made uncomfortable by its depiction of women, maybe, but no hatred. And its not so much its depiction itself, as what was intended as an exaggerated art-style meant to be an affectionate parody of fantasy tropes and art was still fairly interchangeable with how the industry generally depicts its female characters.

And now that this is a hot topic we're going to get a lot of people complaining about the character design in Skull Girls when it comes out on PC in a few weeks. Great. -.-

Monxeroth:

Fappy:

Monxeroth:

Implying the fact that you most likely have a proper use in mind of generating review scores, a statement im highly interested in and would like to know how such a thing would be possible.

It seems you've misinterpreted my meaning. I suppose I could have been more clear, but I never meant to imply there was a correct way to generate a review score. When I say, "... how people misuse them" I am referring to how consumers/gamers interpret/use them.

So then what is the correct way to properly make use (use that in the future, MAKE use) of review scores and interpret them :U?

:D There isn't one!

An interpretation can't be "the right one". However, individuals can like individual interpretations.

As for review scores, I like the way X-Play did it with there 5/5 system, because to get the most out of it you had to read the review, or at least watch it.

The trick was the score was about how good the game was, but rather how well the reviewer could recommend it.

For example:

1/5= I really fond this game to be terrible. It had a lot of issues, and few redeeming qualities. I can not recommend buying this game. If for whatever reason you want to see it for yourself, at most, I say rent it.
(To get the most out of it, you have to check the review to see what was so bad.)

2/5= I found the game to be pretty bad, but it did have some good things. However, they are so out numbered/valued by the bad I can just not recommend someone to buy it. Rent it if ya want to see how it is, and then maybe buy it later.
(Again, ya got to see the review to find out more about the game.)

3/5= The game was alright. It was pretty good in some parts, but it still had some bad flaws you really couldn't ignore/avoid. Worth a rent at the very least.

4/5= The game was pretty good. Most of the time I was enjoying myself. However, there are a few issues that may be deal breakers, but if they don't bother you, feel free to buy the game. At the very least you should rent it, and see what it's like.

5/5= The game is great! Not perfect, but I can completely recommend that you buy the game. There are very few reasons why you shouldn't.
(To find out why you may not want to buy the game(or why you should) ya have to check the review.)

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that this is "the right way to do it", or maybe even the best way, but it's the way I like.

Dreiko:
I'm so excited about this game, I just drew this! :D

Having said that, yeah, some designs aren't to my taste...but to simply ignore the good cause there's a thing or two your tastes don't agree with is ignorant.

The reviewer ignores a lot of good art design, a whole lot of it, if she uses one the games' BEST features to justify her score of 65. (which is a D, if we go by exams, this game isn't a D)

First off: I am very jealous that I can't draw that well.

Second: As I said, there isn't a "right way" to do scoring so just going off the score can't mean much. Especially with the 10/10 system. Some use it like the school system(in that a 6 is a failing grade, and anything lower is just a more pungent turd), but some like Angry Joe have 6/10 as there average mark, so a 6.5 would mean somewhat above average.

So I'd go more by what the reviewer said, rather than just the score they gave. For example, even in the positive reviews I've seen of the game(like here on the escapist) the reviewer did mention the issue with the titillation. One even commented on how he was surprised the narrator was able to say all his lines without laughing.

That said, there are a few other miner issues I've heard about Dragon's Crown. Repetitiveness being one, but that's to be somewhat expected with a brawler, and it wasn't a major issue. The others were that the quests are sometimes had to follow, and that the upgraded gear didn't look all that different from the lower level gear. Those ones are a bit more important, at least to me.

What I'm trying to get at is the game does have some flaws, and perhaps that adds to the issues with the titillation problems. Because the game isn't doing as good as it could, you notice the smaller problems more. It doesn't help that it sounds like the game shoves the problem in your face.

That said, I can't make a final call until I've played the game myself. Which will be soon.

It's something I don't understand either. Adam Sessler (rightfully) gave God of War: Ascension a 3 out of 5 and people flipped their shit. You see, this is the internet, and the biggest number wins; so if some reviewer out there doesn't tow the line and give Call of Duty a score above 9, the fans get angry. Most people just try to justify it with the whole "they don't like Call of Duty anyway, so that reviewer's score shouldn't count 'cause it's not objective" line. It's why I'm always suspicious of games that get 10s across the board. The Last of Us was no where near as good (to me) as I was led to believe and I would personally rate it at a 7 or an 8 if I was feeling generous, yet the game had only a few less than perfect scores.

There's really no such thing as an objective review anyway. You can try and say that there is, but at the end of the day, you're asking for someone's opinion on something. It's like asking for someone's opinion on something and then getting pissed off at them because their position doesn't line up with your own. The real question is why anyone would care what a reviewer has to say about something you already like. I can only imagine it's because people view those scores as an insult against them.

But then again I also like Dynasty Warriors, so I got used to ignoring reviews a long time ago. You'll never really know unless you pick up a game and play it for yourself.

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