Jimquisition: Neutered

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Father Time:
There is no right thing to do in this situation other than not trying to get or threaten censorship.
This isn't a moral issue, the game publishers do not owe you anything and they aren't harming anyone with games like Dragon's Crown.

I really like using this quote so I'm going to use it again. It was talking about music censorship but it applies here.

I wasn't talking about Dragon's Crown. Dansrage was acting like asking for the abandonment of certain trite and cliche tropes was akin to calling for the castration of all men whose eyes ever lingered on a pair of breasts. I was pointing out that that line of thinking is both untrue and flawed.

Call me nuts, but isn't the simplest solution to pretty much all of this to let developers make whatever the heck games they want, and then we choose whether to buy them or not? I mean, if the makers of 'Dragon's Crown' lost 50,000 potential buyers because they decided to give the Sorceress a G-cup, or the makers of GTA V lose 100,000 customers because they made all the leads male, the only people who really 'lost' anything there are the developers, as they devoted money and time to the game's development. I certainly didn't invest any money in it, and the only time I spent was looking at previews.

Now if the game was a Kickstarter, well, ok, then I can understand someone saying "I devoted money to this, you need to listen to me", but for most games that simply doesn't apply.

One of the issues in this area is that at least some people only use the "inclusive" and "more variety" labels as lip service when, yes, they seem to want anything they find offensive put away, and most of the rest really don't know they can come off that way. Bringing Dragon's Crown to light by wagging you finger at one character, or poorly reviewing it because you don't like want it was so much you couldn't ask how well it did it, these are not things that get me thinking these people want variety. Most people on forums aren't big into censorship, but when the discussions are about going "this is bad and needs to happen less" more than they're about contributing to the new ideas, it's hard not to think that variety isn't the real goal.

I realize this is the internet, and as such, it's full of people that want to take the easy route and tear things down and leave the new idea creation to someone else, but that's the majority of the problem. We get nothing but angry attacks and finger wagging, but few new ideas. Even your Saints Row 4 praise is less a new idea, than a call for every game to have a customizable avatar (which seems to reduce every complaint down to the aesthetic looks of the main character and little else.) The DiD debate was full of people tired of the trope, but few that could answer "what would you prefer to do instead?" We need to quit passing the creativity buck and start providing developers the concepts we want to see. What we do know might have the opposite of the desired effect as companies decide these "inclusive groups" are just full of complainers while the old demographic is there doling out cash for anything with fanservice.

I'd like to point out that just because one piece of media can be inclusive and not lose any of it's appeal doesn't mean the same is true for everything else.

I give you 12 Angry Men (if you've never seen it, it follows the journey of 12 men on a jury as they argue over whether or not a boy murdered his father, it's one of my favorite movies).

If you had some women jurors in 12 Angry Men the character interactions and the dialogue would play out noticeably differently. And they would for the simple reason that (as a general rule of thumb) men interact with each other differently when they know there's a women in their midst.

I don't mean they'd try to hit on her or that they'd kill all sex jokes but that they'd be less hostile with each other (and with the woman), and less blunt. Yes there's exceptions like if the woman is someone they've known for a while and consider one of the guys but that's not going to happen in a room with 12 strangers.

And the way the characters interact is the film's strong suit. So altering that for the sake of inclusion/appealing to people might've hurt the movie.

There might be a similar effect if you gender swapped one of the protagonists in GTA V.

I can give another example too. Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare. Long story short, a man wants to marry a woman for her money. The woman is incredibly hostile and insults people a lot (hence shrew). He tames her by out-performing her in a 'be a terrible spouse' competition while pretending he's mistreating her in the name of love. And he's the hero of the story.

You can guess how that's been changed to make it more inclusive. And you can't tell me with a straight face that that wouldn't have stifled creativity if Shakespeare had made it today and had been pressured to make those changes.

leviadragon99:

Eve Charm:

Jimothy Sterling:
Neutered

Why do gamers defend their favorite titles from criticism with such volatility? According to some, it's because they don't want to see their genitalia removed.

Watch Video

Can i just point out one of your other things on here is " movie defense force "

Oh yeah, because challenging people to see things the mainstream audience dismiss as terrible in a new light is EXACTLY the same as ravenously demanding that all reviews of a game give it perfect scores.

Really it's different from people JUST saying a movie is awful and no one should ever see it and it should die in a fire then the people that take one look at the art of a game and call it trash? Defend movies on their merits but don't defend games?

It's not about the scores, it's about the existence. You can't and never will be, able to homogenize art. For the good or bad, it should exist and shouldn't have to be watered down for anyone. You can't put a boob slider on Hand-drawn characters, just like the statue of david in real life doesn't come with an "sex appeal slider" often imitated but never duplicated, whether it's your thing or not, it's better to exist then not to exist at all.

Father Time:
I'd like to point out that just because one piece of media can be inclusive and not lose any of it's appeal doesn't mean the same is true for everything else.

I give you 12 Angry Men (if you've never seen it, it follows the journey of 12 men on a jury as they argue over whether or not a boy murdered his father, it's one of my favorite movies).

If you had some women jurors in 12 Angry Men the character interactions and the dialogue would play out noticeably differently for the simple reason that (as a general rule of thumb) men interact with each other in different ways when they know there's a women listening.

I don't mean they'd try to hit on her or that they'd kill all sex jokes but that they'd be less hostile with each other, and less blunt. Yes there's exceptions like if the woman is someone they've known for a while and consider one of the guys but that's not going to happen in a room with 12 strangers.

And the way the characters interact is the film's strong suit. So altering that for the sake of inclusion/appealing to people might've hurt the movie.

There might be a similar effect if you gender swapped one of the protagonists in GTA V.

I can give another example too. Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare. Long story short, a man wants to marry a woman for her money. The woman is incredibly hostile and insults people a lot (hence shrew). He tames her by out-performing her in a 'be a terrible spouse' competition while pretending he's doing it all in the name of love. And he's the hero of the story.

You can guess how that's been changed to make it more inclusive. And you can't tell me with a straight face that that wouldn't have stifled creativity if Shakespeare had made it today and had been pressured to make those changes.

That's an interesting argument that kind of loses some of it's weight because Shakespeare's works were a product of their time. He specifically wrote them to be about the then modern day world, basising them on the then values. If Shakespeare lived in modern day, he would never write anything like that. He would write plays based on modern values.

No one is saying that developed should be forced to go in and change what they wanted to do. They're saying that they want more variety and for people to step out of their comfort zone. When people criticize Call of Duty for doing the same thing over and over again, people don't rush to it's defense, saying that people should stop trying to oppress Infinity Ward's creative vision. Why is it ok for people to criticize call of duty for doing the same things over and over again, but not to criticize the gaming industry as a whole for doing the same things over and over again.

erttheking:

Father Time:
I'd like to point out that just because one piece of media can be inclusive and not lose any of it's appeal doesn't mean the same is true for everything else.

I give you 12 Angry Men (if you've never seen it, it follows the journey of 12 men on a jury as they argue over whether or not a boy murdered his father, it's one of my favorite movies).

If you had some women jurors in 12 Angry Men the character interactions and the dialogue would play out noticeably differently for the simple reason that (as a general rule of thumb) men interact with each other in different ways when they know there's a women listening.

I don't mean they'd try to hit on her or that they'd kill all sex jokes but that they'd be less hostile with each other, and less blunt. Yes there's exceptions like if the woman is someone they've known for a while and consider one of the guys but that's not going to happen in a room with 12 strangers.

And the way the characters interact is the film's strong suit. So altering that for the sake of inclusion/appealing to people might've hurt the movie.

There might be a similar effect if you gender swapped one of the protagonists in GTA V.

I can give another example too. Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare. Long story short, a man wants to marry a woman for her money. The woman is incredibly hostile and insults people a lot (hence shrew). He tames her by out-performing her in a 'be a terrible spouse' competition while pretending he's doing it all in the name of love. And he's the hero of the story.

You can guess how that's been changed to make it more inclusive. And you can't tell me with a straight face that that wouldn't have stifled creativity if Shakespeare had made it today and had been pressured to make those changes.

That's an interesting argument that kind of loses some of it's weight because Shakespeare's works were a product of their time. He specifically wrote them to be about the then modern day world, basising them on the then values. If Shakespeare lived in modern day, he would never write anything like that. He would write plays based on modern values.

No one is saying that developed should be forced to go in and change what they wanted to do. They're saying that they want more variety

I disagree. There is a ton of variety now and yet we have this argument every time a games comes out with blatant sex appeal aimed just at men (unless it's a series that's been doing it forever like Dead or Alive).

erttheking:

and for people to step out of their comfort zone. When people criticize Call of Duty for doing the same thing over and over again, people don't rush to it's defense, saying that people should stop trying to oppress Infinity Ward's creative vision. Why is it ok for people to criticize call of duty for doing the same things over and over again, but not to criticize the gaming industry as a whole for doing the same things over and over again.

Nobody proclaims that Call of Duty is sexist/racist/bigoted whatever for doing the same thing all the time. Nobody says they have to change their tropes in the name of "moving the game industry forward" or "not alienating people (as if they shouldn't be expected to just avoid series they don't like)".

This type of controversy can neuter games severly

Minion: How should we torment the hero master.
Villain: We attack the one he loves most.
Minion: Actually no, we cant do that.
Villain: Why the hell not!?
Minion: Apparently, putting the female in distress turns her into some sort of "game ball". It pisses off all the feminists.
Villain: I guess we can just spread some nasty rumors about him.

With people like Anita Sarkeesian, female characters in video games become that one kid that is no fun to play with because he begins crying every time he starts losing. The one where you have to tell everyone to "go easy" on him or else he'll take his ball and go home.

Father Time:

erttheking:

Father Time:
I'd like to point out that just because one piece of media can be inclusive and not lose any of it's appeal doesn't mean the same is true for everything else.

I give you 12 Angry Men (if you've never seen it, it follows the journey of 12 men on a jury as they argue over whether or not a boy murdered his father, it's one of my favorite movies).

If you had some women jurors in 12 Angry Men the character interactions and the dialogue would play out noticeably differently for the simple reason that (as a general rule of thumb) men interact with each other in different ways when they know there's a women listening.

I don't mean they'd try to hit on her or that they'd kill all sex jokes but that they'd be less hostile with each other, and less blunt. Yes there's exceptions like if the woman is someone they've known for a while and consider one of the guys but that's not going to happen in a room with 12 strangers.

And the way the characters interact is the film's strong suit. So altering that for the sake of inclusion/appealing to people might've hurt the movie.

There might be a similar effect if you gender swapped one of the protagonists in GTA V.

I can give another example too. Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare. Long story short, a man wants to marry a woman for her money. The woman is incredibly hostile and insults people a lot (hence shrew). He tames her by out-performing her in a 'be a terrible spouse' competition while pretending he's doing it all in the name of love. And he's the hero of the story.

You can guess how that's been changed to make it more inclusive. And you can't tell me with a straight face that that wouldn't have stifled creativity if Shakespeare had made it today and had been pressured to make those changes.

That's an interesting argument that kind of loses some of it's weight because Shakespeare's works were a product of their time. He specifically wrote them to be about the then modern day world, basising them on the then values. If Shakespeare lived in modern day, he would never write anything like that. He would write plays based on modern values.

No one is saying that developed should be forced to go in and change what they wanted to do. They're saying that they want more variety

I disagree. There is a ton of variety now and yet we have this argument every time a games comes out with blatant sex appeal aimed just at men (unless it's a series that's been doing it forever like Dead or Alive).

erttheking:

and for people to step out of their comfort zone. When people criticize Call of Duty for doing the same thing over and over again, people don't rush to it's defense, saying that people should stop trying to oppress Infinity Ward's creative vision. Why is it ok for people to criticize call of duty for doing the same things over and over again, but not to criticize the gaming industry as a whole for doing the same things over and over again.

Nobody proclaims that Call of Duty is sexist/racist/bigoted whatever for doing the same thing all the time. Nobody says they have to change their tropes in the name of "moving the game industry forward" or "not alienating people (as if they shouldn't be expected to just avoid series they don't like)".

Eh, I have to disagree with you on the variety. In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda. The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me. And I don't think there have been any games in recent years where the main character was gay or transexual, unless you count a game where you can customize your character and I don't. Sure, supporting casts have been flourishing and there have been a handful of progressive games but the problem is that they're in the overwhelming minority. For every game with a female or black main character there are five more with straight white men for main characters. Even Borderlands 2, Fuse, Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite force the female characters to share the spotlight with straight white male characters. There's nothing wrong with this and with the exception of Fuse they were all really good games but female main characters are still heavily unrepresented when it comes to them getting a solo game. Come to think of it the African American character in GTA V has to share the spotlight with two other white guys too. And that doesn't make it a bad game, I really like the prospect of the trio of characters in GTA V. I'm just saying that games with stand alone African American and female main characters are very scarce.

No one said that Call of Duty is racist? Um...it's been awhile but you might want to check the comments under the Zero Punctuation Black Ops 2 video. Come to think of it, Yahtzee has thrown a lot of racism claims at the series.

Here's the thing though. I love video games but that doesn't mean we can't criticize them. Metro Last Light. Came out early in the year. Excellent atmosphere, likable characters, interesting conflicts and a wonderful universe. And the way it treats women is absolutely atrocious. Every last female character is either a house wife or a victim. The only exception to this is the lone female soldier, who helps you out in one mission, disappears, reappears, gets kidnapped, has to be rescued by the main character, has sex with him, then drops out of the story again.

I still love Last Light, but truly loving something means accepting and acknowledging its flaws, not ignoring it.

Monxeroth:

For example: Does the sorceress breasts somehow lower the quality of the game? No, no it does not. Only mechanics and actual faults with the game can lower a games overrall quality in my opinion, not subjective personal nonsense like the artstyle not being appealing or the music not being received well by some. Whether you like something or not, its not a valid reason to critique a game for.

"How dare someone make a game with an artstyle that i dont find personally appealing, this game sucks"

I tend to disagree. While some people might take their criticisms of a game's art style and music too far... I'm going to have to deal with it for the entirety of my play experience. If a game has a song I find particularly annoying it's going to distract me from the mentioned game play mechanics. If I'm playing a fighting game and a character is wearing a bright yellow and visually noisy jump suit it's going to distract me from what you're saying makes video games great.

If the video part (visuals and sound) part of your video games is distracting you from the game part of your video game then it's a flaw I'd happily use to criticize it. Game mechanics and visuals are different principles, but they aren't two completely separate entities. They both need to mesh well in order to make a good gaming experience.

Dansrage:
Give 'em an inch, they take a mile.

I wanted to respond to more of your post, but I've discovered I can't because your complaints are too vague for me to find any purchase on. "It's all about emasculation?" What is? Who is trying to take away your masculinity, and how? Details help.

Dansrage:
I already have to step on eggshells, be careful about what I say and think in case someone somewhere takes offense to any unpopular or socially unacceptable opinions I may have; I have to censor myself daily on the off chance some perpetual victim will take umbrage. I live in a world where I could be fired for expressing an opinion people don't like, or thinking the wrong thing.

This is sheer hyperbole. Unless your employers are telepathic, there is no way to punish you for unexpurgated thought, and even if there was, I live in an at-will employment state where anyone can fire anyone for any reason, so you'll find my sympathy lacking here that you can be fired for offending your coworkers. At least it's a reason.

Dansrage:
Completely benign or unrelated comments can be twisted into hate crimes based simply on how the 'victim' is feeling that day.

For instance, Mr. Sterling's benign "I would like games to be more inclusive" comment has apparently prompted your victimhood to interpret it as meaning he wants to steal what makes you male.

Dansrage:
Now that it's a larger medium with a wider audience suddenly it needs to be politicized, people use it as a platform to get their extremist views across and, yet again, force free-thinking people to bow to bullying and chastisement.

I can barely understand this sentence. You seem to be saying that it's somehow, I don't know, hypocritical that people didn't complain about something they didn't notice but then when they did notice it started complaining? Or something? And please, do us all the courtesy of acknowledging that your opponents are human beings with real beliefs and real passions, not cartoon villains who see freedom as a threat to be eliminated by concentrated force of evil.

Dansrage:
Every gaming community I can name reacts violently to outspoken feminists, and that reassures me that they have no foothold, despite how much the media panders to them, poor, inoffensive victims that they are.

It is very saddening to me that you find violence against feminists to be a comfort.

TheMadDoctorsCat:
I mean, is there really anybody out there, adolescent or not, who finds the idea of a woman with breasts twice the size of her head sexy?

Yes. It's a bit of a fetish, but it's a real thing. It's a subgenre of porn and it's a theme night at strip clubs.

Err, Jim, I do feel you missed the mark here.

The fear isn't really inclusiveness stifling creativity, it a fear of an Affirmative Action scenario occurring that's going to stifle creativity. Where developers are forced to break away from their original plans to meet a certain level of a particular content or risk being shut down.

It's why the logic is flawed with using SR4 as an example. The game about because the developers essentially flipped the bird to the ones screaming that SR3 wasn't a clone of the second game. It's in spite of the detractors that SR4 came about, not because of them. (you'll note I'm not saying they said no to any criticism, just the ones screaming "I hope you all lose your jobs because the game isn't SR2-2")

It's also where your creative grammar choices example falls flat as well. You willingly chose to make the changes yourself and it sparked new challenges. Had you been forced to make the changes or be told to never speak again I'm sure you would be less welcoming of it.

It's not seeking to appeal that's the fear, as that has already been proven a falsehood. It's the being forced to appease that's the fear, because that tends to require the exclusion of concepts and ideas, rather than the inclusion of new concepts and ideas. To be honest, if inclusiveness was the fear, then games like the Last of us wouldn't have had such trouble getting released and we would all be experiencing the grim reality of Six Days in Fallujah instead of publishers cowing to criticism.

There's the Jim I love, good show chap!

Now why haven't you responded to the special gift I've sent you over on Podtoid?! You asked for it, I've given it, but there's not even a mention of it on Podtoid. I'm disappointed Jim, not even so much as a message back. What's wrong, don't you like Holmes anymore? I did it for you Jim, acknowledge me!!!!!

So whens the next Podtoid coming?

LordLundar:
Err, Jim, I do feel you missed the mark here.

The fear isn't really inclusiveness stifling creativity, it a fear of an Affirmative Action scenario occurring that's going to stifle creativity. Where developers are forced to break away from their original plans to meet a certain level of a particular content or risk being shut down.

It's why the logic is flawed with using SR4 as an example. The game about because the developers essentially flipped the bird to the ones screaming that SR3 wasn't a clone of the second game. It's in spite of the detractors that SR4 came about, not because of them. (you'll note I'm not saying they said no to any criticism, just the ones screaming "I hope you all lose your jobs because the game isn't SR2-2")

It's also where your creative grammar choices example falls flat as well. You willingly chose to make the changes yourself and it sparked new challenges. Had you been forced to make the changes or be told to never speak again I'm sure you would be less welcoming of it.

It's not seeking to appeal that's the fear, as that has already been proven a falsehood. It's the being forced to appease that's the fear, because that tends to require the exclusion of concepts and ideas, rather than the inclusion of new concepts and ideas. To be honest, if inclusiveness was the fear, then games like the Last of us wouldn't have had such trouble getting released and we would all be experiencing the grim reality of Six Days in Fallujah instead of publishers cowing to criticism.

You know what he best way to dodge the PC police is? Willingly be inclusive. Face the "fear" and overcome it.
Developers want to be inclusive sometimes, but forces stand in their way from time to time.

There's not much of a movement to make gaming PC (and such a movement which would be really difficult to pull off as the industry is multinational. I dare say the fear's unfounded.) but the longer the industry decides to tick people off by actively fighting inclusivity, the more likely it'll happen, and the more likely that more people will want to create it.
We can't expect people to shut up about the status quo, and allow the status quo to keep going.

See, some developers -want- to be inclusive, but producers, and even developers sabotage that. Market testing sabotages it. Every time some boneheaded force comes along to change the protagonist, and their agency, gaming becomes less inclsive.

So, it boils down to this. Let the developers be inclusive because they want to be, or wait until the hammer falls, and the PC police step in.

Thanatos2k:

hentropy:
There's a reason why many of the very best games in the gaming history has the player either controlling an everyman/non-human protagonist or allows you to design your own character.

I don't believe that to be true in the slightest.

Deus Ex? Forced Male main character.

Final Fantasy 7? Forced Male main character.

Xenoblade? Forced Male main character.

Suikoden 2? Forced Male main character.

Nier? Forced Male main character.

Metal Gear Solid? Forced Male main character.

God of War? Forced Male main character.

Planescape Torment? Forced Male main character.

The list goes on. It really has NOTHING to do with the gender of the protagonist. Nothing whatsoever.

I said many, not all. Obviously, there are many games, particularly older games, that force you to play a male protagonist. But did you read the rest of my post at all or read that one sentence and flew into some kind of rage?

Think of it this way: did any of those characters truly NEED to be male? The only one I can think of where it really shaped the story in a meaningful way is Kratos, and he's not even properly human. They were male because that's what the devs and publishers wanted, because especially back then you couldn't actually put a female in the lead. But as gaming has evolved and moved on in time, most of the games we think of as legendary in this generation have been more open-ended experiences, where players are free to choose their gender and craft their characters. You couldn't do that back in the day due to technical limitations, so you were forced to play a pre-determined character and that character had to be male in order to get greenlit.

This was really my main point, and you seem to miss it completely to prattle on about irrelevant matters. I'm not even sure what you're even talking about with the last line. If anything, you've proven my point: it has EVERYTHING to do with gender as all those characters are male, and if you're a female you might feel alienated, just as a male might not have as much fun playing a female character (though I don't personally see why).

It's all about choice and freedom to craft your own experience, instead of being forced to experience solely what the devs want you to experience. I think that's just the best way to approach things in order to be both inclusive but to also expand the horizons.

erttheking:

Father Time:

erttheking:

That's an interesting argument that kind of loses some of it's weight because Shakespeare's works were a product of their time. He specifically wrote them to be about the then modern day world, basising them on the then values. If Shakespeare lived in modern day, he would never write anything like that. He would write plays based on modern values.

No one is saying that developed should be forced to go in and change what they wanted to do. They're saying that they want more variety

I disagree. There is a ton of variety now and yet we have this argument every time a games comes out with blatant sex appeal aimed just at men (unless it's a series that's been doing it forever like Dead or Alive).

erttheking:

and for people to step out of their comfort zone. When people criticize Call of Duty for doing the same thing over and over again, people don't rush to it's defense, saying that people should stop trying to oppress Infinity Ward's creative vision. Why is it ok for people to criticize call of duty for doing the same things over and over again, but not to criticize the gaming industry as a whole for doing the same things over and over again.

Nobody proclaims that Call of Duty is sexist/racist/bigoted whatever for doing the same thing all the time. Nobody says they have to change their tropes in the name of "moving the game industry forward" or "not alienating people (as if they shouldn't be expected to just avoid series they don't like)".

Eh, I have to disagree with you on the variety. In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda. The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me. And I don't think there have been any games in recent years where the main character was gay or transexual, unless you count a game where you can customize your character and I don't. Sure, supporting casts have been flourishing and there have been a handful of progressive games but the problem is that they're in the overwhelming minority. For every game with a female or black main character there are five more with straight white men for main characters. Even Borderlands 2, Fuse, Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite force the female characters to share the spotlight with straight white male characters. There's nothing wrong with this and with the exception of Fuse they were all really good games but female main characters are still heavily unrepresented when it comes to them getting a solo game. Come to think of it the African American character in GTA V has to share the spotlight with two other white guys too. And that doesn't make it a bad game, I really like the prospect of the trio of characters in GTA V. I'm just saying that games with stand alone African American and female main characters are very scarce.

No one said that Call of Duty is racist? Um...it's been awhile but you might want to check the comments under the Zero Punctuation Black Ops 2 video.

Here's the thing though. I love video games but that doesn't mean we can't criticize them. Metro Last Light. Came out early in the year. Excellent atmosphere, likable characters, interesting conflicts and a wonderful universe. And the way it treats women is absolutely atrocious. Every last female character is either a house wife or a victim. The only exception to this is the lone female soldier, who helps you out in one mission, disappears, reappears, gets kidnapped, has to be rescued by the main character, has sex with him, then drops out of the story again.

I still love Last Light, but truly loving something means accepting and acknowledging its flaws, not ignoring it.

Sorry, but you flat out don't play (or aren't familiar with) enough games.
"In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda."
Let's see, this is just off the top of my head: Torchlight 2, Diablo 3, Dragon's Crown, ANY game that lets you choose to be a female or a male (I don't see why that wouldn't 'count', and that right there adds dozens, if not hundreds of games), the entire cast of Skullgirls (actually any fighting game), all 3 Mass Effect games, both Dragon Age games, and Gears of War 3. Like I said, that's what I thought of just sitting here not even looking anything up.

"The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me."
Again, ANY game where you can customize the characters skin color (which again adds dozens of games), and you can also add "Prototype 2" and "Rise of the Triad" to that. Also, the protagonist in "Remember Me" isn't African-American, she's living in Paris, nothing American about her (I'm assuming, I didn't play the game but I'm gonna guess there isn't some storyline about how she was born on this side of the pond).

erttheking:

Eh, I have to disagree with you on the variety. In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda. The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me. And I don't think there have been any games in recent years where the main character was gay or transexual, unless you count a game where you can customize your character and I don't. Sure, supporting casts have been flourishing and there have been a handful of progressive games but the problem is that they're in the overwhelming minority. For every game with a female or black main character there are five more with straight white men for main characters. Even Borderlands 2, Fuse, Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite force the female characters to share the spotlight with straight white male characters. There's nothing wrong with this and with the exception of Fuse they were all really good games but female main characters are still heavily unrepresented when it comes to them getting a solo game. Come to think of it the African American character in GTA V has to share the spotlight with two other white guys too. And that doesn't make it a bad game, I really like the prospect of the trio of characters in GTA V. I'm just saying that games with stand alone African American and female main characters are very scarce.

You named pretty much all the good games that have stand out characters. I mean lets face it the rest of the games out their are Sports games, fighting games, FPS's which to be honest you can basically replace the gender, voice and sexuality of the main character and it wouldn't make a difference. I wouldn't call GTA 4 your typical white male character, FF13 is an female lead, Tales of xilla, Portal ( but that kinda falls under the FPS can be swapped), The Atelier games, Hyper dimension Neptunia, mirror's edge. Hell the only good white males to leave this generation have been Nathan Drake and Cole Mcgrath. We aren't seeing many African American characters but we are seeing a lot of other races.

As for sex, I think most or almost all games that went as far as to include sex in the game have had, Straight/gay/bi options. Mass effect, dragon's age, fable, saint's row 4. I only think Catherine is the only game about sex that's only straight.

I'm sure I only touched on a bit of it but I don't think you can come off and say your not represented enough in gaming. The only downfall tends to be is that the characters who are basically nothing more then a floating gun all come off as While male protagonists.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I still would not want to get rid of or change Dragon's Crown. Dragon's Crown did nothing wrong. It's a style, one style, amongst many. It should exist. This style should exist and be used. No it shouldn't go away. It shouldn't judged for doing it either. Just like I said last time.

Why?

Because neither should any other stylistic choice. I want them all. I get in different moods. The more practically clothes styles, the in the middle styles, the games that let me pick any style the various variations in between all the extremes and the things beyond. I want them all. Every single one. I don't want a single one to go away. I don't think a single one is wrong for doing what they do.

As for gender, I love male and female characters as they are. I love male and female characters as they could be otherwise as well. I want all the variations. Variety. I want it all. I don't want just one thing. I want the market to be flooded with variety, and I do not, ever, want someone pointing at one of the styles of male or female heroes and how they are clothed, regardless of how it is, and screaming, "You should not be doing that." I want it all. Dragon's Crown is one style, and it deserves to exist as readily as anything else, and all those other possibilities deserve to exist and be stylized.

I don't support the male or female side of things. I'm no feminist, but I'm no misogynist either. I don't take sides. I believe in absolute equality, and to me that means that all things are game on all sides guns blazing no exceptions. The women in my life, my own mother, and women I get along with aren't sheep, and they aren't under anyone's thumb but they look at something like Dragon's crown and don't blind any eye anything more if they'd seen a man in nothing but a loincloth flexing his big burly muscles for them. It's all game to them. It's all game to me. Personally, left to my own tastes, I tend toward more effeminate varieties of male characters, in more interesting and less mundane clothing. It's fun. I like it. And I never judge a game for having a style other than my personal preference.

-

I think, personally, and I know people don't count them, and I think that's sad, that games that let you customize a character to your liking are the top shelf selections. The more options and less restriction the better. That guy wants a big burly character? Cool. I want to make a smaller more lithe male character? Cool. That person wants to make a busty curvy girl? Cool. That one wants to make a toned muscle bound and tall woman? Cool. That one wants to make a petite little girl? Cool. That one wants to make a more average joe with a stubbly chin? Cool. Clothes? Everything. Everything. All the clothes. All the styles. Same for armor. No holds barred. Bring it.

Customization is my preference.

erttheking:

Father Time:

erttheking:

That's an interesting argument that kind of loses some of it's weight because Shakespeare's works were a product of their time. He specifically wrote them to be about the then modern day world, basising them on the then values. If Shakespeare lived in modern day, he would never write anything like that. He would write plays based on modern values.

No one is saying that developed should be forced to go in and change what they wanted to do. They're saying that they want more variety

I disagree. There is a ton of variety now and yet we have this argument every time a games comes out with blatant sex appeal aimed just at men (unless it's a series that's been doing it forever like Dead or Alive).

erttheking:

and for people to step out of their comfort zone. When people criticize Call of Duty for doing the same thing over and over again, people don't rush to it's defense, saying that people should stop trying to oppress Infinity Ward's creative vision. Why is it ok for people to criticize call of duty for doing the same things over and over again, but not to criticize the gaming industry as a whole for doing the same things over and over again.

Nobody proclaims that Call of Duty is sexist/racist/bigoted whatever for doing the same thing all the time. Nobody says they have to change their tropes in the name of "moving the game industry forward" or "not alienating people (as if they shouldn't be expected to just avoid series they don't like)".

Eh, I have to disagree with you on the variety. In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda. The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me. And I don't think there have been any games in recent years where the main character was gay or transexual, unless you count a game where you can customize your character and I don't. Sure, supporting casts have been flourishing and there have been a handful of progressive games but the problem is that they're in the overwhelming minority. For every game with a female or black main character there are five more with straight white men for main characters. Even Borderlands 2, Fuse, Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite force the female characters to share the spotlight with straight white male characters. There's nothing wrong with this and with the exception of Fuse they were all really good games but female main characters are still heavily unrepresented when it comes to them getting a solo game. Come to think of it the African American character in GTA V has to share the spotlight with two other white guys too. And that doesn't make it a bad game, I really like the prospect of the trio of characters in GTA V. I'm just saying that games with stand alone African American and female main characters are very scarce.

I thought you just meant games without huge tits in them. Because games like that are the minority.

erttheking:

No one said that Call of Duty is racist? Um...it's been awhile but you might want to check the comments under the Zero Punctuation Black Ops 2 video. Come to think of it, Yahtzee has thrown a lot of racism claims at the series.

They're separate complaints from it being the same gameplay over and over.

Ihateregistering1:

erttheking:

Father Time:

I disagree. There is a ton of variety now and yet we have this argument every time a games comes out with blatant sex appeal aimed just at men (unless it's a series that's been doing it forever like Dead or Alive).

Nobody proclaims that Call of Duty is sexist/racist/bigoted whatever for doing the same thing all the time. Nobody says they have to change their tropes in the name of "moving the game industry forward" or "not alienating people (as if they shouldn't be expected to just avoid series they don't like)".

Eh, I have to disagree with you on the variety. In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda. The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me. And I don't think there have been any games in recent years where the main character was gay or transexual, unless you count a game where you can customize your character and I don't. Sure, supporting casts have been flourishing and there have been a handful of progressive games but the problem is that they're in the overwhelming minority. For every game with a female or black main character there are five more with straight white men for main characters. Even Borderlands 2, Fuse, Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite force the female characters to share the spotlight with straight white male characters. There's nothing wrong with this and with the exception of Fuse they were all really good games but female main characters are still heavily unrepresented when it comes to them getting a solo game. Come to think of it the African American character in GTA V has to share the spotlight with two other white guys too. And that doesn't make it a bad game, I really like the prospect of the trio of characters in GTA V. I'm just saying that games with stand alone African American and female main characters are very scarce.

No one said that Call of Duty is racist? Um...it's been awhile but you might want to check the comments under the Zero Punctuation Black Ops 2 video.

Here's the thing though. I love video games but that doesn't mean we can't criticize them. Metro Last Light. Came out early in the year. Excellent atmosphere, likable characters, interesting conflicts and a wonderful universe. And the way it treats women is absolutely atrocious. Every last female character is either a house wife or a victim. The only exception to this is the lone female soldier, who helps you out in one mission, disappears, reappears, gets kidnapped, has to be rescued by the main character, has sex with him, then drops out of the story again.

I still love Last Light, but truly loving something means accepting and acknowledging its flaws, not ignoring it.

Sorry, but you flat out don't play (or aren't familiar with) enough games.
"In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda."
Let's see, this is just off the top of my head: Torchlight 2, Diablo 3, Dragon's Crown, ANY game that lets you choose to be a female or a male (I don't see why that wouldn't 'count', and that right there adds dozens, if not hundreds of games), the entire cast of Skullgirls (actually any fighting game), all 3 Mass Effect games, both Dragon Age games, and Gears of War 3. Like I said, that's what I thought of just sitting here not even looking anything up.

"The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me."
Again, ANY game where you can customize the characters skin color (which again adds dozens of games), and you can also add "Prototype 2" and "Rise of the Triad" to that. Also, the protagonist in "Remember Me" isn't African-American, she's living in Paris, nothing American about her (I'm assuming, I didn't play the game but I'm gonna guess there isn't some storyline about how she was born on this side of the pond).

First of all, half of the games you mentioned were games where you choose the main character's gender. That's not really a female character...come to think of it that's not really a character period. I don't count Gears of War 3 because the main character of that game is very much Marcus with Sam and Ayna being reduced to supporting characters reserved for players 2 and 3,and like I said before, the games where you have a choice between a male or a female characters are great, but it's kinda sad that we can't just have a game with a flat out female main character. Half of those games don't really have a strong focus on character driven story anyway, which is what I'm looking for.

I can't comment on Rise of the Triads and I'll give you Prototype 2, but even all together that's a grand total of 5 games. Not a whole lot. Once again I don't count games with customization because those aren't really characters, they're faceless caricatures for you to project yourself into. Once again I'm asking for a character driven story where the characters happen to be African American, and Also African-American has kind gotten to the point where I just use it to describe Africans that live outside of Africa. Force of habit. Probably should stop doing that. But exactly what terms do I use to describe Africans who live in Europe? Euro-African or just Africans?

Stabby Joe:
Saints Row IV seems to be receiving a lot of "pre-hate", at least what I've seen so far, mostly because of story and gameplay changes. Despite that though I wonder how much it will come up here.

I haven't seen this myself but i have to ask. Why? Saints Row is made to be over the top, outta this world, ridiculously raunchy and fun. Why would it get hate for doing what it's been doing all these years and getting good review for? Not to mean I'm directly asking you my friend I'm just asking in general and quoting this so I don't get people confused.

OT: Awesome video Jim. You're a fabulous speaker, as always my friend.

Why would GTA have a female lead? The things people do in GTA are not really cut out for females. It has female characters, yes, and they are pretty nicely rounded and believable. If GTA had a female lead she would most deffinetly be a pscyco like the Boss in SaintsRow!
Female leads are good where they fit the gameplay/story or if the game is designed around a female lead.
Quit preaching this PC bullshit, please.

Great show Jim, would have been on earlier but there was a mis understanding else where.
I'd like to thank you for the inadvertent review of saints row.
the only down side of your video is that i'm taking away is "Saint row 4 is bad ass." i know that wasn't the point LOL of the video.

erttheking:

Ihateregistering1:

erttheking:

Eh, I have to disagree with you on the variety. In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda. The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me. And I don't think there have been any games in recent years where the main character was gay or transexual, unless you count a game where you can customize your character and I don't. Sure, supporting casts have been flourishing and there have been a handful of progressive games but the problem is that they're in the overwhelming minority. For every game with a female or black main character there are five more with straight white men for main characters. Even Borderlands 2, Fuse, Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite force the female characters to share the spotlight with straight white male characters. There's nothing wrong with this and with the exception of Fuse they were all really good games but female main characters are still heavily unrepresented when it comes to them getting a solo game. Come to think of it the African American character in GTA V has to share the spotlight with two other white guys too. And that doesn't make it a bad game, I really like the prospect of the trio of characters in GTA V. I'm just saying that games with stand alone African American and female main characters are very scarce.

No one said that Call of Duty is racist? Um...it's been awhile but you might want to check the comments under the Zero Punctuation Black Ops 2 video.

Here's the thing though. I love video games but that doesn't mean we can't criticize them. Metro Last Light. Came out early in the year. Excellent atmosphere, likable characters, interesting conflicts and a wonderful universe. And the way it treats women is absolutely atrocious. Every last female character is either a house wife or a victim. The only exception to this is the lone female soldier, who helps you out in one mission, disappears, reappears, gets kidnapped, has to be rescued by the main character, has sex with him, then drops out of the story again.

I still love Last Light, but truly loving something means accepting and acknowledging its flaws, not ignoring it.

Sorry, but you flat out don't play (or aren't familiar with) enough games.
"In the last few years the only games that I can think of that have a female playable characters are Tomb Raider, Fuse, and Remember Me. The Last of Us kinda, Borderlands 2 kinda and Bioshock Infinite again kinda."
Let's see, this is just off the top of my head: Torchlight 2, Diablo 3, Dragon's Crown, ANY game that lets you choose to be a female or a male (I don't see why that wouldn't 'count', and that right there adds dozens, if not hundreds of games), the entire cast of Skullgirls (actually any fighting game), all 3 Mass Effect games, both Dragon Age games, and Gears of War 3. Like I said, that's what I thought of just sitting here not even looking anything up.

"The only games I've seen recently with an African American protagonist are GTA V, Walking Dead, Fuse and again Remember Me."
Again, ANY game where you can customize the characters skin color (which again adds dozens of games), and you can also add "Prototype 2" and "Rise of the Triad" to that. Also, the protagonist in "Remember Me" isn't African-American, she's living in Paris, nothing American about her (I'm assuming, I didn't play the game but I'm gonna guess there isn't some storyline about how she was born on this side of the pond).

First of all, half of the games you mentioned were games where you choose the main character's gender. That's not really a female character...come to think of it that's not really a character period. I don't count Gears of War 3 because the main character of that game is very much Marcus with Sam and Ayna being reduced to supporting characters reserved for players 2 and 3,and like I said before, the games where you have a choice between a male or a female characters are great, but it's kinda sad that we can't just have a game with a flat out female main character. Half of those games don't really have a strong focus on character driven story anyway, which is what I'm looking for.

I can't comment on Rise of the Triads and I'll give you Prototype 2, but even all together that's a grand total of 5 games. Not a whole lot. Once again I don't count games with customization because those aren't really characters, they're faceless caricatures for you to project yourself into. Once again I'm asking for a character driven story where the characters happen to be African American, and Also African-American has kind gotten to the point where I just use it to describe Africans that live outside of Africa. Force of habit. Probably should stop doing that. But exactly what terms do I use to describe Africans who live in Europe? Euro-African or just Africans?

You could just call them black and save yourself a lot of trouble. I've never met a single black person, whether from Europe or the States, who got pissy when someone called them black, so I think for simplicity's sake that might be a good way to go.

Second, Saying "well a customizable character doesn't count" is hogwash in video games. Why? Because in so many games out there, even if the character is ________ race, they aren't really even much of a character. For example, your character in 'Singularity' is a white male. Now, tell me something about him. Where did he grow up? What was his name? You don't know and they never tell you, and thus he's not really a "character", he's just a game model. Your character in 'Rage' is a white male, what's his name? Why was he selected to be buried in the ark? Again, he's not even really a character, he's simply a projection.

In the "Command and Conquer" games, during the cutscenes, they look at you and refer to you as "Commander". What race are you? What gender? You're whatever the heck you want to be. That's the point: video games are not like movies or books. The point of them is that you are controlling what happens, and thus (more frequently than not) the 'character' is whatever you want them to be.

To be honest, games with a strong focus on character driven story are the distinct minority in the overall field of video games, for the most obvious reason that writing good characters with good dialogue is difficult. Also, blacks make up about 13% of the US population, so shouldn't they only represent about 13% of game characters? Likewise, why is it that people whine all the time about the lack of black characters, but no one ever seems to mention the lack of Hispanic or Asian characters? How about Indian characters?

But worry not, the solution to adding more equal representation or diversity or whatever we wish to call it to video games is incredibly simple: just raise the money and create your own video games, then you can put whoever the heck you want in it!

OtherSideofSky:
So tell me, Jim, what exactly separates Dragon's Crown from Saints Row other than a hell of a lot more money and staff to work in specific scenarios for all those extra options? Last I checked, the sorceress wasn't the only option for a playable female character, and the other two had radically different body types from her. You are effectively complaining that comically large breasts are an option, even though you listed that among the strengths of Saints Row. Maybe you think there should have been multiple body types for every class in Dragon's Crown, a game made by a team of about 20, some of whom were working on other projects at the same time? Do you have any idea how much money and work it would take to make that many additional art assets, given that Vanillaware actually painted them all, instead of using easily modifiable CG models? From where I'm standing, you just come off as a hypocrite.

Yeah seriously. There is a female character you can pick with unrealistically huge tits. There's a female character you can pick with an unrealistically huge ass. And there's a female character that.....doesn't have either of those. That looks completely normal. Same with the male characters. There's one with an unrealistically broad chest. There's one with unrealistically huge muscles and....an unrealistically broad chest. And there's one that is perfectly normal.

If you don't like the disproportionate characters you aren't forced to pick them. Go with the Elf or Wizard. Dragon's Crown is a wonderfully inclusive game. It has someone for every gameplay preference AND art style preference if that matters to you for some unknown reason. Just like Saint's Row 4.

Unless you think that the other characters shouldn't exist AT ALL in any game period, and that's going above and beyond "inclusivity" into full blown stifling of creativity for your own twisted sensibilities. And that would include Saints Row 4 given that anyone could create a giant breasted woman.

hentropy:

Thanatos2k:

hentropy:
There's a reason why many of the very best games in the gaming history has the player either controlling an everyman/non-human protagonist or allows you to design your own character.

I don't believe that to be true in the slightest.

Deus Ex? Forced Male main character.

Final Fantasy 7? Forced Male main character.

Xenoblade? Forced Male main character.

Suikoden 2? Forced Male main character.

Nier? Forced Male main character.

Metal Gear Solid? Forced Male main character.

God of War? Forced Male main character.

Planescape Torment? Forced Male main character.

The list goes on. It really has NOTHING to do with the gender of the protagonist. Nothing whatsoever.

I said many, not all. Obviously, there are many games, particularly older games, that force you to play a male protagonist. But did you read the rest of my post at all or read that one sentence and flew into some kind of rage?

You said "the very best games in the gaming history" without actually thinking about gaming history. Don't blame me.

hentropy:
Think of it this way: did any of those characters truly NEED to be male? The only one I can think of where it really shaped the story in a meaningful way is Kratos, and he's not even properly human. They were male because that's what the devs and publishers wanted, because especially back then you couldn't actually put a female in the lead. But as gaming has evolved and moved on in time, most of the games we think of as legendary in this generation have been more open-ended experiences, where players are free to choose their gender and craft their characters. You couldn't do that back in the day due to technical limitations, so you were forced to play a pre-determined character and that character had to be male in order to get greenlit.

This was really my main point, and you seem to miss it completely to prattle on about irrelevant matters. I'm not even sure what you're even talking about with the last line. If anything, you've proven my point: it has EVERYTHING to do with gender as all those characters are male, and if you're a female you might feel alienated, just as a male might not have as much fun playing a female character (though I don't personally see why).

So you're arguing that the characters aren't even really male characters because they didn't need to be male, AND simultaneously arguing that females are alienated because there's so many male characters and no one for them to identify with. Make up your mind. And really, stop selling women short. I've never been "alienated" by having to play a female character, I wouldn't have cared if JC (JessiCa?) Denton was a woman, and I'd hope women don't care that he was a man.

hentropy:
It's all about choice and freedom to craft your own experience, instead of being forced to experience solely what the devs want you to experience. I think that's just the best way to approach things in order to be both inclusive but to also expand the horizons.

See, the thing is, a tight well written linear story doesn't really allow you the freedom to craft your own characters and experiences. A tight well written linear story has preexisting characters that can't be changed with some checkboxes and dialogue choices. They go through arcs from the beginning of the story to the end. They change according to the wishes of the author. Linearity is not and has never been a BAD thing, just a different way of telling stories.

In Mass Effect, while it has a good story for the most part (lol ending), Shepard doesn't change from the beginning of Mass Effect 1 to the end of Mass Effect 3 at all. Many of the other characters have arcs but Shepard acts almost identically the whole way through. Same thing happens with most other games that have character creation. In games like Dragon's Dogma and Demon's Souls your created character doesn't even really say or do much themselves - they barely even HAVE a character. Same with Baldur's Gate, Kingdoms of Amalur, etc.

So going in with that type of game is severely limiting to your character (which COULD result in creativity in other ways as Jim points out in this episode) but also completely contrary to many types of storytelling. Storytelling we have seen it work in games already throughout the years, and making everything "inclusive" for the sake of it results in these types of experiences being lost. You want to see what happens when they try anyways? Look at the abomination that is White Knight Chronicles, where they try to allow you to create your main character while also having a character driven linear JRPG story.

Father Time:

erttheking:

Father Time:
I'd like to point out that just because one piece of media can be inclusive and not lose any of it's appeal doesn't mean the same is true for everything else.

I give you 12 Angry Men (if you've never seen it, it follows the journey of 12 men on a jury as they argue over whether or not a boy murdered his father, it's one of my favorite movies).

If you had some women jurors in 12 Angry Men the character interactions and the dialogue would play out noticeably differently for the simple reason that (as a general rule of thumb) men interact with each other in different ways when they know there's a women listening.

I don't mean they'd try to hit on her or that they'd kill all sex jokes but that they'd be less hostile with each other, and less blunt. Yes there's exceptions like if the woman is someone they've known for a while and consider one of the guys but that's not going to happen in a room with 12 strangers.

And the way the characters interact is the film's strong suit. So altering that for the sake of inclusion/appealing to people might've hurt the movie.

There might be a similar effect if you gender swapped one of the protagonists in GTA V.

I can give another example too. Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare. Long story short, a man wants to marry a woman for her money. The woman is incredibly hostile and insults people a lot (hence shrew). He tames her by out-performing her in a 'be a terrible spouse' competition while pretending he's doing it all in the name of love. And he's the hero of the story.

You can guess how that's been changed to make it more inclusive. And you can't tell me with a straight face that that wouldn't have stifled creativity if Shakespeare had made it today and had been pressured to make those changes.

That's an interesting argument that kind of loses some of it's weight because Shakespeare's works were a product of their time. He specifically wrote them to be about the then modern day world, basising them on the then values. If Shakespeare lived in modern day, he would never write anything like that. He would write plays based on modern values.

No one is saying that developed should be forced to go in and change what they wanted to do. They're saying that they want more variety

I disagree. There is a ton of variety now and yet we have this argument every time a games comes out with blatant sex appeal aimed just at men (unless it's a series that's been doing it forever like Dead or Alive).

erttheking:

and for people to step out of their comfort zone. When people criticize Call of Duty for doing the same thing over and over again, people don't rush to it's defense, saying that people should stop trying to oppress Infinity Ward's creative vision. Why is it ok for people to criticize call of duty for doing the same things over and over again, but not to criticize the gaming industry as a whole for doing the same things over and over again.

Nobody proclaims that Call of Duty is sexist/racist/bigoted whatever for doing the same thing all the time. Nobody says they have to change their tropes in the name of "moving the game industry forward" or "not alienating people (as if they shouldn't be expected to just avoid series they don't like)".

Not to mention that Shakespeare would have been pressured to make changes - not by the people - but by the play's producers and the crown. That said, he was the populist blockbuster writer of his day. So if you don't think he took criticism to heart, you'd likely be mistaken.

Father Time:
I can give another example too. Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare. Long story short, a man wants to marry a woman for her money. The woman is incredibly hostile and insults people a lot (hence shrew). He tames her by out-performing her in a 'be a terrible spouse' competition while pretending he's mistreating her in the name of love. And he's the hero of the story.

You can guess how that's been changed to make it more inclusive. And you can't tell me with a straight face that that wouldn't have stifled creativity if Shakespeare had made it today and had been pressured to make those changes.

This is an example that proves the opposing point, if anything. Despite the content of Taming of the Shrew, and despite the era in which it was created, Shakespeare's body of work is not generally viewed as exclusionary toward women. Why? Because he wrote a variety of stories, with a wide variety of female characters, both as protagonists and antagonists, in addition to supporting characters. He wrote some of the juiciest female roles in theater past or present. Even the titular "Shrew" is an interesting character, actually, despite the problematic elements of the play. The diversity and variety of his plots and characters means that even if one finds certain elements grating, there are other elements to enjoy.

Which is what most people who are calling for greater diversity in gaming want.

I for one welcome our new feminist gaming overlords. Allow me to introduce you to the ideal, perfectly inoffensive gaming protaginst that welcomes and includes everyone, as imagined by dirty cis-men far more intelligent than I. They're good for some things after all, amirite femisisters?

I give you the perfect blank slate that nobody can possibly find unappealing because it doesn't have anything, the Greendale Human Being.

image

Not icky racial or gender markers in site, and no nasty lumps or bumps to make people think dirty, impure, unfeminist thoughts.

Because that's what this is all about at the end of the day. If you are enjoying something feminists don't want you to enjoy, they'll screech until it changes for them, because why create something for yourself if you can just whinge until everything you want is handed to you by a disgusting man?

I agree fully with Jim near the end, it IS difficult to break habits and a challenge to change behaviours to adapt to a new environment. Which is why no feminist has ever done it, instead they just stamp their feet until the environment changes to match whatever the fuck it is they say is right.

Have you lot ever seen what happens when a group of assorted lesbians, cross-sexual, feminist types of different leanings have arguments about stuff? I have. It's like watching thunderstorms have a fight.

I don't agree that games must cater to all taste or people (Dark Souls). I prefer the artist create whatever they so desire and let people vote with their wallets. I like Jim, but he really comes off as preachy sometimes. Nothing is inherently wrong with Dragons Crowns art direction or games viewed as sexualizing certain characters or genders.

erttheking:
Snip

You should probably check out Tales of Xillia. The main character and resident deity, Lord Maxwell, is a woman whom you can play and is very much a female character, one in a long line of great and very powerful women in Tales games particularly and JRPGs in general.

Tales of Vesperia, on the 360, had blossoming(and confusing) lesbian feelings being handled very tastefully and Lost Odyssey had some incredibly poignant moments on it that made my mrs cry, simply by being in the room with me playing it that's how powerful they spoke to a distinctly female sense of family and loss.

Estelle from Legend of Heroes is great.

In actual fact, most of the 'destined super-power changing the world by their presence' types in japanese things across media, are females. Do they not count because they're attractive? That's a serious question. Because it seems to me most of the whining from feminists and mangina types gets negated by 'what if the character was ugly'. If the sorceress in DC was a proper ancient crone do you think anybody would've swooped on that game like they did? Don't answer that, I'm just putting something out there. I'll save us both some time:

"Misogyny. Sexualisation. We can't allow women to maybe feel bad because apparently they have the mental strength and self esteem of a toddler. Creepy."

Or I suppose some of these wouldn't count since they're 'reduced to supporting characters'? How about games with multiple leads, like KH Birth By Sleep? Fighting games? They actually do have characters, writing them ALL off because you don't know this is a massive disservice(not that I've met a feminist yet who cared about fair play in their rhetoric, but I can try!).

The VAST realms of games where you aren't a character? God games, sim games, Theme-style builder games, strategy games... All worthless?

kailus13:
I think more games need to panda.

I don't think Saints Row is the best example to use. A game where you can create your own character shouldn't be compared to a game where the characters are already created for you.

Also, people might be worrying that characters like the sorceress wouldn't be allowed if detractors got their way, which would be stifling creativity somewhat.

More character diversity would be nice though.

I agree, we need more pandas. It would be nice to play as one outside of WoW and Tekken.

The shrimp pictures still confuse me. :(

This is a touchy subject. I don't think it is unreasonable to say that there are some individuals, such as the vocal "feminists", that simply have a diametrically opposing view of what is acceptable/fun to them and therefore what is necessary to be "inclusive" by alluring them to the hobby, compared to other core elements of the gaming community. Saying "find more creativity" in reference to dealing with their requests (or demands) isn't the answer - the question is, as an artform, should all games be encouraged or even forced to acquiesce?

It is even more worrisome about how "creativity" was referenced in this episode. Its a little like being an evolutionary biologist professor teaching a science class, and having varying forms of flat earth and creationists joining the class and demanding that you bend your curriculum to appeal to their beliefs to be "inclusive" ; which mind you, means that you are going to have to generally reject aspects of your current curriculum which are opposed to them, lest they stamp their feet and say that you're not being sensitive to everyone in the class. Now, saying "Hey, its BORING to just assert that this is evolution and science as we understand it and thereby offend them. Instead, be CREATIVE and find the mental gymnastics necessary to rectify those two opposing schools of thought and make everyone happy!" I don't believe is how one should deal with this issue, especially as any theories that came up sufficient to entice the creationists would by nature have "watered down, or neutered" the core science curricula (while probably not even being truly sufficient for the creationists hardcores) and make the rest of your students wonder why you're even wasting your and their time, ruining your lesson content, all to cater to people who's arguments have absolutely no merit or bearing in terms of scientific content - you're running a science class, not a religion class. This, is in many ways the circumstance we have regarding some of those vocal elements of the "Gaming must change to be politically correct" caste.

Inclusiveness is great, but we can only go so far. Saint's Row IV and Mass Effect are very inclusive in terms of gender and sexual alignment, as are Skyrim and many other "create or customize your own hero" games. This is a good thing. Giving people options is always a benefit. However, when someone says that GTA 5 should have a female protagonist, or that X game is lacking Y characters who are Z color/gender etc... this becomes a problem. Sometimes, someone wants to tell a story or provide an experience, and it is not some insult aimed at a person or group of people that the main character doesn't share your race or gender, or includes certain tropes etc... Watching the insinuations of these groups, such as those god-awful Anita Sarkeesian videos, it becomes obvious that making this particular group of people happy will require a huge change to the point that gaming would indeed be neutered.

grumpymooselion:
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I still would not want to get rid of or change Dragon's Crown. Dragon's Crown did nothing wrong. It's a style, one style, amongst many. It should exist. This style should exist and be used. No it shouldn't go away. It shouldn't judged for doing it either. Just like I said last time.

Why?

Because neither should any other stylistic choice. I want them all. I get in different moods. The more practically clothes styles, the in the middle styles, the games that let me pick any style the various variations in between all the extremes and the things beyond. I want them all. Every single one. I don't want a single one to go away. I don't think a single one is wrong for doing what they do.

As for gender, I love male and female characters as they are. I love male and female characters as they could be otherwise as well. I want all the variations. Variety. I want it all. I don't want just one thing. I want the market to be flooded with variety, and I do not, ever, want someone pointing at one of the styles of male or female heroes and how they are clothed, regardless of how it is, and screaming, "You should not be doing that." I want it all. Dragon's Crown is one style, and it deserves to exist as readily as anything else, and all those other possibilities deserve to exist and be stylized.

Nobody is saying these games should go away. We'd just like them to be one of a choice, not the only choice available.

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