How to Talk About Games #3

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It has been a while since I mentioned how much I love you guys. I love you guys!

Grey Carter:

rhodo:

TheBelgianGuy:
Remember when Critical Miss was about funny comics, not sounding condescending and elitist all the time? Yeah.

Agree with this.

Seriously, it was fun and I enjoyed the first strip. The second one was ok too, I guess. But now, by the third one, it's no longer fun but it's becoming clearly preachy and holier-than-thou.

Also, you have no right to call your reader "motherfuckers" to gain their attention. Pro tip.

Pro tip: It's not a pro-tip if you're not a professional,

...

...

My opinion of you as a person is growing. This made me laugh. Genuinely.

OT: You know what I am finding really funny?

People getting angry about these current comics. Its better than the comics themselves. Its like people are deliberately missing the point. If you are finding this preachy and annoying, or hell, finding this condescending, then I am worried for you. If it is preachy or annoying to have someone explain why, in this case, you cannot just call an opinion subjective and get away with not justifying it then I think one is protesting too much.

In other words, you find yourself making the mistakes that are being outlined and are getting angry and defensive.

Opinions are pretty much worthless unless they are backed up by fact. End of.

tldr;

Grey made a funny and the comics are just getting better. Good points being made and laughter being had. Plus...

Protip: You forgot one thing about protips. Being professional is important, but not everything. I mean, a plumber cannot really give you protips about comics. Then again, I cannot give you protips on anything, due to being a dirty student. So whilst only professionals can give protips, technically, MOST professionals could not, actually, give you applicable protips.

Also I just noticed I put a TLDR in the body of my post instead of at the end. I am tired. And now by adding this I make everything worse.

rhodo:

Grey Carter:
[quote="rhodo" post="6.825461.20030369"][quote="TheBelgianGuy" post="6.825461.20026398"]

Pro tip: It's not a pro-tip if you're not a professional,

...

...

Ahahahah, seriously? XD That's the most arrogant, the most "I-am-so-totally-better-that-you" reply ever. In fact, this explains why you call your readers "moterfuckers". You're that kind of person.

Now I feel more sorry for you than anything else. And no, I am not going to call you the m-word. I'm kinda more mature than that. :)

I can tell you without hesitation that I have never called any of my readers moterfuckers.

oh yeah, caries certainly does have a negative connotation. in fact, I can't imagine any context in which chewing your food causing you pain could be seen as positive

Grey Carter:

rhodo:

Grey Carter:
[quote="rhodo" post="6.825461.20030369"][quote="TheBelgianGuy" post="6.825461.20026398"]

Pro tip: It's not a pro-tip if you're not a professional,

...

...

Ahahahah, seriously? XD That's the most arrogant, the most "I-am-so-totally-better-that-you" reply ever. In fact, this explains why you call your readers "moterfuckers". You're that kind of person.

Now I feel more sorry for you than anything else. And no, I am not going to call you the m-word. I'm kinda more mature than that. :)

I can tell you without hesitation that I have never called any of my readers moterfuckers.

Oh come now, you're just being mean now.

Hilarious, but mean.

Come on guys, this isn't funny at all. Can you stop with the elitist bs and just go back to making witty comics?

FEichinger:

Remember when gaming was about enjoying a passtime rather than whining about everything that isn't to one's precise liking? Yeah.

No actually, I don't. Is that something they've introduced this gen? I hope you don't mind but I snuck a little look at your age... I assure you, people were whining about things in gaming that weren't to their taste long ago and the internet has only increased the scope of this proud tradition, not invented it.

Sorry to intervene, but if I don't challenge ludicrously placed rose tinted specs when I see them my blood curse flares up and I lose 2 nights sleep and need to be chained down.

Mr F.:

Opinions are pretty much worthless unless they are backed up by fact. End of.

For those just joining us, this is not only an opinion, but this is the kind of overblown opinion that might as well be a full on dropped trow dick-wave.

There is very little difference in someone saying "opinions can never be wrong because they're all subjective" and someone else saying "opinions can ONLY be wrong unless you're able to 'present facts' to back it up".

Actually, "Fun" is more complex than the writer is giving it credit for. To be Fun does not mean shallow or lacking intellectual fulfillment. Some people get their jollies from solving complex issues. Some get their jollies from smashing their fingers. One sort of fun is not fundamentally better than another persons fun. Fun, by the media, is the assumption that the activity is simple or basic. For some reason they do not consider that the players at EVO may being having fun beating opponents and learning weaknesses in their own tactics. Fun seems to not be considered when a player is doing his best not to be caught in a game like Tenchu. Where you use your wits to complete the task at hand with the least possible complication or conflict.

Fun is not shallow or lacking in intellectual fulfillment. Fun is simply enjoying the activity you are participating in, plain and simple. It encompasses nearly everything. And yes, I would have fun with that ride.

rhodo:

Grey Carter:

rhodo:

Ahahahah, seriously? XD That's the most arrogant, the most "I-am-so-totally-better-that-you" reply ever. In fact, this explains why you call your readers "moterfuckers". You're that kind of person.

Now I feel more sorry for you than anything else. And no, I am not going to call you the m-word. I'm kinda more mature than that. :)

I can tell you without hesitation that I have never called any of my readers moterfuckers.

You're right; you called them motherfuckers.

Grasping at a small typo..... aren'tcha soooooo clever. :)

Yeah, sorry about that - you aren't really worth my time, and I'm already giving you way too much attention. Your kind of replies are all I needed to realize I shouldn't bother writing to sad little you.

Ciao. ;)

It... It took you over three years to figure out how Grey interacts with people?

By the way, being bafflingly condescending and holier-than-thou, while hilarious, doesn't do you any favours in the court of public opinion.

lacktheknack:

It... It took you over three years to figure out how Grey interacts with people?

What exactly makes you think that I've been following this comic for three years or that I've written to this Grey person before...?

-Now- I know what kind of person he's like. Disappointing, really, as his comic can range from total crap... to something truly funny.
Then again, finding out what sad type of person he is, really explains some unsufferable attitudes he displays in his comic strips.

By the way, being bafflingly condescending and holier-than-thou, while hilarious, doesn't do you any favours in the court of public opinion.

Ditto. :)

UltraDeth:
"We essentially use it synonymously with "entertaining" or "engaging," but the word carries negative connotations. It implies the experience is shallow and lacking in intellectual fulfilment."

I believe I learned something new

Yes I have directly quoted from the comic, but I never imagined the word "Fun" being a negative.

Well, for gaming it's had an increasingly negative connotation for a while. One of the big issues in the gaming community is that casual gamers have ruined gaming because their vast numbers and simple contentment to have shallow fun has encouraged the gaming industry to increasingly make games targeted at that kind of demographic since it can make the most money. Gaming companies looking exclusively at the bottom line have thus largely ceased to make deep games (even if they claim nearly every game is deep as a buzzword, as even shallow people like to think of themselves as deep or intellectual). Weighty games becoming fewer and further between, and increasingly you have to look to the indie circuit where the low budgets mean that a lot of the most satisfying games to those looking for depth are done on a shoestring and look like crap. Increasingly even indies have gotten casual as every private developer on a budget nowadays seems to want to try and be the guy with the next "Angry Birds" or "Peggle".

Increasingly it comes down to a game being fun to someone who talks about it is a "duh" so in a discussion for a game to matter it has to have something behind it other than just being fun. On a certain basic level "Twin Stick Shooters" are fun which is why people keep making them, but it's not something that has much in the way of redeeming merits, has anything to really say, stimulates the intellect or in any way moves gaming or humanity forward.

It's sort of like the old movie skit about "Oh, I can't hear you over all the fun I'm having!" once viewed as a smackdown on snobs, it's increasingly become the negative stereotype of the lowbrow gamer, someone who occupies the basic niche of a primitive having a great time banging two rocks together to make noise, being totally unaware of anything better, and perhaps so out of context developmentally that they might not be able to appreciate it if they did (ie Bobo the Caveman is unlikely to be able to appreciate the Opera is you just brought him there, and after a lifetime of living in caves even after a decade he's unlikely to have changed so much given his formative years that he will be able to gain an appreciation of it).

Apologies for the ramble, this is pretty much a more in depth explanation of how "fun" has a negative connotation on it's own. This is not to say that it's right.

Definition of ELITISM
1
: leadership or rule by an elite
2
: the selectivity of the elite; especially : snobbery <elitism in choosing new members>
3
: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
- elit·ist noun or adjective

(From: http://www.merriam-webster.com )

Retrograde:

Mr F.:

Opinions are pretty much worthless unless they are backed up by fact. End of.

For those just joining us, this is not only an opinion, but this is the kind of overblown opinion that might as well be a full on dropped trow dick-wave.

There is very little difference in someone saying "opinions can never be wrong because they're all subjective" and someone else saying "opinions can ONLY be wrong unless you're able to 'present facts' to back it up".

Not wrong, worthless. They can, in retrospect, be proven to be right. But if they are not based in fact, listening to them is simply futile.

Easy, simplistic example.

Imagine a politician in the 1930's saying "Hitler needs to be stopped because Germans are all warmongering maniacs". Said politician would have been right, hitler should have been stopped and was a warmongering maniac, but the premise of the argument is incorrect and the opinion is pretty much worthless (And grounded in xenophobia and racism.).

So, I accept that the opinion I put forward there is an opinion and, under my own premise, worthless because I am not putting forward a fact to back it up (Just further opinion.). In some cases you do not need to put forward the facts (Very rare cases mind) if the facts are assumed to be universally known. Within a poltics final, for example, if you need to reference the Harm Principle of JS Mill, you are not expected to have to explain the principle or who JS Mill was, simply because it is safe to assume that the Lecturer knows who Mill was.

So no. Opinions that are not accompanied by facts can be both right and wrong, however they are worthless. If you cannot justify your opinion with fact, your opinion is worthless. The idea that all opinions are equal is damaging and comes from a trend of anti-intellectualism that has been present in the west for many, many years.

If a wanker on the street says "Immigrants are taking all of the jobs, send them off back to bongo-bongo land!", his opinion on the matter is worthless. If a wanker in a suit states that "Immigration can be seen to be damaging to the economy, and here is why..." his opinion is less worthless, although I would argue that both are equally incorrect yet of different worth (And the second statement is deliberately the kind of broad statement you get form politicians, the words "Can be shown to be" can be used to hide just about anything.).

Your mistake was equating "Worth" with "Accuracy.". When any group of people have a discussion, there will be different opinions being floated. Naturally, everyone with their own opinion will believe their opinion to be right. If everyone is backing their arguments up with hard facts, their opinions, however differed, will be of equal worth.

Now, most of the debating I do is political, but examples within gaming exist. "Battlefield is better than COD because it is more fun!" = Worthless, subjective opinion that cannot be proved. "Battlefield is better on *insert issue* than COD because *insert justification* and I therefore believe it to be a better game." = Opinion with some merit, whether or not it is accurate.

If you are arguing your opinion with someone and you cannot provide justification or facts expect to be torn apart regardless.

tldr;

Opinions are pretty much worthless unless they are backed up by fact, arguing on an issue if you do not know the facts is utterly pointless and holding a position without facts to justify said position is just stupid.

Mr F.:

If you are arguing your opinion with someone and you cannot provide justification or facts expect to be torn apart regardless.

Firstly, I didn't make a mistake. If I interpret broad speech in a way that you didn't intend then tighten up your speech.

What you said before was wrong, but I'll not hold that against you because the quoted is an improvement.

The key here is that justification =/= facts, and facts on their own are not inherenelty a justification depending on the context.

This quoted bit here I doubt anyone would be able to take any umbrage with. This is the line to take.

Also, if most of your arguments are political, then I urge you to come up with an example that doesn't involve Hitler. You nearly lost me instantly on principle. I'm sure it's within your ability to come up with an example that hasn't been used to win stupid arguments 1029 million times. Please do.

RipVanTinkle:
Colossal Douche-Titan?

Has someone been watching Attack on Titan lately? :P

image

lol was my thoughts exactly, the word titan doesn't come up often beyond that anime and when referring to hercules :D

OT: laughed at quite a bit of this, and highly enjoyed its point(s)

10/10, better than the last 2 entries. I didn't laugh at all, but I think the points made were mostly fairly strong.

Rift suffers from assuming complexity of skillset = depth of class.

Rift's design philosophy for their classes is to give lots of activated abilities which either have a debuff duration attached (thus you won't rely on spamming them) and has a long cool down.
Which means you end up having an action bat with about 8 skills you use all the time in succession.

What makes it even worse is that you can often macro the majority of skills into one macro. Thus reducing 6 skill buttons into 1 single button
-
I think this is also related to nostalgia for game mechanics.
Rift has the old fashioned intimidating Talent Tree system with a lot of +2% damage [0/5] talents.
Just because game mechanics were part of a game that you cherish greatly, doesn't mean the mechanic themselves are positive and should be retained.

TheBelgianGuy:
Remember when Critical Miss was about funny comics, not sounding condescending and elitist all the time? Yeah.

Well, it's in the name, isn't it? I'd say the comics are pretty hit-and-miss, but the name would suggest they're more of the latter.

I don't think there's much point to this latest chain of comics (how to talk about games) - as you say, it's the wrong place to make such points, and the kind of people who read parodic video game comics are most likely already familiar with the common pitfalls and misconceptions surrounding video game critique.

Mr F.:

Opinions are pretty much worthless unless they are backed up by fact. End of.

Ha do you not see how that is the self contradictory? The statement "Opinions are pretty much worthless unless they are backed up by fact. End of." is not only itself an opinion it is also unsupported (and arguably unsupportable) by fact or evidence. But anyway it's good for you to tell us a large part of western philosophy and art criticism is worthless, otherwise I might of fallen in to trap of thinking they actually had some value!

Daystar Clarion:

TheBelgianGuy:
Remember when Critical Miss was about funny comics, not sounding condescending and elitist all the time? Yeah.

How is it condescending? If you could do it without being ironic, that would be great.

Remember the comic. Use tips from the comic to say why!

Aye. I agree,but you got to admit....you couldn't get more blunt unless you tied the joke to a baseball bat and hit someone with it. (Yeah,that didn't really sound well,did it? Sorry,I'm a little tired.)

Just wanted to give my two cents to this titanic (hue) thread.
For me, whether a game is "good" or "bad" has nothing to do with how fun it is, and it is measured according to myself. That is, if I want to know how good a game is, I ask "would I be able to create this game (given the materials, programming team and money needed)?"
For example, I consider Planescape: Torment an amazingly good game. Why? Because, although *I* would be able to think and design the fighting mechanics, it would be pretty much impossible for me to come up with the story and, yes, philosophy the game has.
On the other hand, I consider Gone Home a terrible game (oh boy here we go). Why? Because not only would I be able to write a better story, but I probably could even program it by myself, create the models, and maybe even find voice actors as good (and I wouldn't ask for 20 dollars).

Last but not least, as I said, I don't think fun has nothing to do with the quality of a game, although this can be because my standards in this regard are pretty low. For god's sake, I had fun with (the previously known as WarZ) Infestation Stories, and I seriously doubt there are people on the world that honestly think THAT is a good game. In fact, I've met several that think it isn't even a game, but an abomination.

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