Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

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Legion:

TWEWYFan:
I'm with you here Jim. I don't care what someone thinks a person did to them, threatening that person's kids is just completely unacceptable and I think it does paint a very dark picture of the current game culture.

But it doesn't, because it has nothing to do with game culture. Nothing whatsoever.

It does, because it is everything to do with game culture.

A female politician in the UK who had the audacity to suggest it'd be a good idea to have more women on our currency was threatened with rape. Mary Beard, a lady who is a classicist and TV presenter was sent bomb threats for speaking up about the previous issue as well as others.

And that illustrates why we have to deal with the sexism issue within gaming. These are issues which affect far broader groups, society as a whole has these incredibly sexist elements, and they do tend towards the more violent end of the spectrum.

And we aren't separate from that, we are just enthusiasts for one form of expression. If we do not fight against that form becoming more sexist, or racist or just generally more bigoted we end up as a haven for those precise same people who send death threats to politicians who want women more represented on currency.

It doesn't matter that it is a minority, it is the perception that has been built. It is what is hitting the papers - and it is how we are seen. And how we are seen to some extent comes out to being what audience is getting attracted.

You can say it is unfair, you can claim to not be like that, but so long as gamers are issuing death threats, only to get defended by somebody going on about how the person receiving the threats somehow deserves it, then it is a valid criticism of game culture.

Retrograde:

Too bad you didn't feel the pressing need to stand up and be the hero we apparently needed when all the men you mentioned were getting threatened with death, but better late than never I guess.

Ahem...
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7831-Go-Fish

Try a little harder next time.

again: you're the only one here trying to make this about gender.

WTF, Dragon age 2 story was great. It was the level design that was poopy! KILL THE LEVEL DESIGNERS KIDS! DUH!

K12:

Maybe he's satirically demonstrating the point that people will go out of their way to rationalise their actions? Condemning people for "only getting offended because it's a woman" seems to be a fairly common way of justifying the actions of the people who threatened Hepler. It's also completely false, as there was a strong reaction to the Vanderbeek/CoD death threats. Jim even did a special show dealing with the Phil Fish debacle, but screw reality, right? We have a talking point to maintain!

Hmm, a video about a culture of men taking piles and piles of shit until their absolute breaking point only to be told they need to grow up when eventually bucking which he only did (impromptu) because loads of people asked him to(apperntly) and he clearly had a very personal stake in the matter, vs "Fuck You. This needs to be ripped out you sacks of shit, right now, FUCK YOU."

He didn't even stand up for himself or a man he liked with the kind of vitriol he put out in this video today. But you're right, that's probably completely unconnected to anything.

so just continue like i normally do for 7 days? no problem. fortunately, i'm not one of those people. keep up the good work, sterling.

I thought the hate she got was because she suggested that games should have less gameplay for people who find them difficult, and not the quality of her writing?

I do think it reflects badly on gamers when our collective response to a person in the industry being harassed is kind of `Well, they had [x opinion] what do they expect?`. This could have something more to do with internet culture in general, but I don't think it's a coincidence that it happens in gaming so much.

But I imagine if we just pass around that Penny Arcade picture and stick our collective heads in the sand we can ignore this until it happens again next week, right?
Nice episode, Jim. Looking forward to the one on DLC. :)

EDIT: Really, now it's `white-knighting` to say that maybe people who threaten to murder someone's children are fucked up?
Stay classy, escapists.

I can put up with a lot of shit in my life... but I am a dad. threaten my sons and I will end your miserable little life. the slime that threatened this woman's family did was beyond reprehensible, it was actually criminal.

I hope Bioware saved the IP addresses of the posters, I hope she prosecutes, and I hope the brats who did this spend a few weeks in jail to shock them back into the reality that they are not that important.

Madman123456:
Isn't it enough already?
I mean, if those People who would harass via internet are really just a vocal minority why is this still being reported all the time by gaming media? Gaming media reports some disagreeable people who write odd bullshit on the internet.

There is quite a lot of stuff on the internet that is giving these trolls far more attention then they deserve.

It's because we don't get much as far as professionalism out of gaming journalism. It's as sensationalistic as regular news in America. Just the way the world works. Gotta get those hits and such.

Jim might have some good intentions behind this video, but it was poorly thought out and indicative of the lack of calm, rational discussion that the gaming scene really needs right now.

For those of us in the middle, who just play games and do our best to support the medium, we're surrounded by white nights and assholes alike. And that's just the fucking way it is.

Retrograde:

TWEWYFan:
I'm with you here Jim. I don't care what someone thinks a person did to them, threatening that person's kids is just completely unacceptable and I think it does paint a very dark picture of the current game culture.

How? How does this represent me and other gamers? And yeah I am gonna take it personally. You're gonna slag off a group to which I proudly belong so fuck it, might as well have a pop at someone who can take it. Go on. How does this run off on me or anyone other than the assholes personally responsible?

Did you know that crazy One Direction fans stalk the mothers of the band just in case the boys ever visit their parents and send real death threats to real people for the crime of going out with a member of a boyband that they happen to love?

Does that paint a very dark picture of current gamer culture of music culture, or does it rather just make individual crazy bitches look crazy?

Because the rest of the world doesn't see individuals, the rest of the world only sees the collective and the actions of these few very vocal morons are seen to be the example of the entire collective.

Why am I having to explain this?

I suspect Jim fails to provide a reason why the topic was changed because he doesn't have a real reason. He could have easily ignored these threats and talked about his DLC topic as planned, so his attempts to blame this on other people is somewhat immature.

Jim also ignores that Hepler was responsible for writing the story for Dragon Age 2 so she was responsible for many of the things that were wrong with it; specifically the bad story and inconsistent characters. The fact that Jim seems to believe that Hepler was being abused for being creative, rather being than utterly inept and writing terrible stories, just shows that he hasn't bothered to research why people didn't like her. Jim's attempts to deify Hepler to hide his white knighting isn't fooling anyone.

I doubt Hepler's departure will discourage those with talent from writing for games, mainly because those with talent tend to be praised rather than scorned. It's only the utterly inept and entitled writers who expect everyone to love their stories, no matter how badly written these stories are, who get condemned by the majority of gamers. Here's hoping that gamers continue to criticise inept writers that produce bad stories, which ruin popular franchises.

Finally it's funny how Jim is always harping on about how developers should be able to make the games they want but keeps condemning people for giving honest opinions about just how bad these games are.

Legion:

The idea that gaming as a hobby might have something to do with this is no different from the people who blame rock music for causing drug addiction and violent media for causing mass shootings.

No, I agree with you there. Like I said, the game culture is by and large a good thing but it's bad that these monsters have taken up residence.

Oh gosh this really just gives sensationalist media even more of an excuse to make headlines of:
Video Games make people violent, hostile and turns them into psychopaths.

While us normal people in the gaming community say:
No thats not true that never happened you have no proof or base to say such a thing

Then shit like this keeps happening, a guy goes to jail for joking about school shooting in a video game, a video game developer gets death-threats and then a bunch of other stupid shit from stupid people happens and ruins it for everyone, oh and before anyone says: The people saying and doing these things are just trolls and not "real" gamers. Well, fair enough but still i feel its a collective responsibility to try and combat toxic behaviour and things like these when they go too far, which they often do.

Look at what Riot Games did for example to League of Legends, go watch the video:

I know it may have little to do with the subject right here but i still feel it is relevant to some extent.

Deadagent:
I didn't know this still had to be passed around.

Interesting, but ultimately irrelevant to the points made.
There are plenty of real cases of people in the game industry of people getting bullied and threatened en mass for no good reason - Jim included, especially in his early days.

By the way, here is a nice response to people who think that Jim Sterling is wasting his time because he is 'preaching to the choir':

Also, I would suggest putting the video title into quotes. Would be more accurate and more fitting, I think.

uanime5:
I suspect Jim fails to provide a reason why the topic was changed because he doesn't have a real reason. He could have easily ignored these threats and talked about his DLC topic as planned, so his attempts to blame this on other people is somewhat immature.

Jim also ignores that Hepler was responsible for writing the story for Dragon Age 2 so she was responsible for many of the things that were wrong with it; specifically the bad story and inconsistent characters. The fact that Jim seems to believe that Hepler was being abused for being creative, rather being than utterly inept and writing terrible stories, just shows that he hasn't bothered to research why people didn't like her. Jim's attempts to deify Hepler to hide his white knighting isn't fooling anyone.

Mr Sterling is ignoring it because it is not relevant. some bastards threatened a mothers children because of disagreements with her, and that shit reflects poorly on gamer culture as a whole.

I distantiate myself from anyone who threatens, harasses or does anything worse than just teasing game developers.

And since no member here does any of those bad things, I expect Jim to star in some serious adult-only video material next week.

jluzar20:
Is it just me, or has Jim's episodes been less and less entertaining and more brow beating over time? Nothing better than being called a "sick fuck" when this was the first I've heard of the Dragon Age lady thing.

Yeah, I know he's not calling me a sick fuck personally, but white knights always leave a bitter taste in my mouth. Especially so when you chastise a crowd in order to speak to a few. Shoulda stuck to the dildo, Jim.

Unfortunately whether we like it or not, this vocal minority is the reason why gaming as an industry is not entirely taken seriously. We can attack the developers as much as we like about their decisions and how they are ruining the industry but there is this vocal minority that can dictate through threat and abuse the way people operate like school yard bullies, it is this sort of attitude that will force us back to this topic again and again.

I'm actually surprised Police forces have not made arrests; as far I was aware death threats are a criminal offence?

TWEWYFan:

Legion:

The idea that gaming as a hobby might have something to do with this is no different from the people who blame rock music for causing drug addiction and violent media for causing mass shootings.

No, I agree with you there. Like I said, the game culture is by and large a good thing but it's bad that these monsters have taken up residence.

Bad yes but inevitable.
Short answer: Because democracy
Long answer: If we have to have an inclusive and appealing community like we say we do then we have to deal with the fact that since we let everyone in on the same terms, not everyone is gonna want to exist within the community on the same terms and will break rules and will behave in a toxic way to ruin it for everyone, because we seriously shouldnt censor them or just delete, ban or run the community with an iron fist. Its not ok or right to call someone a retarded monkey with downs syndrome on the web but neither should it be illegal, and for those who say that we should make some thing illegal, most of them already are. It is illegal to make death threats in any format, it is already illegal in some countries to use racial terms on the internet and such, we already have the tools for that. What we dont have the tools for it seems in most gaming communities, are the tools to combat the toxic people who may not break the rules but are disruptive towards other members of it.
Toxicity should be punished i believe and it should be mocked and frowned up, but then at the same time we also have to highlight as many good things as possible about the personalities in the community who do behave in an exemplary way.

Gaming culture doesn't exist in a vacuum, the internet is what has created this problem not the gaming community, although it is one of many areas affected by assholes that know they can get away with it, if they couldn't get away with it they most likely wouldn't have said it. I do wish the honor system worked on the internet but when its the last place for unregulated free speech on earth people have a tendency to go to the extreme.

I think the bigger question here is what the gaming culture is doing to affect people in a way that causes them to feel obligated to make threats of these kind to people? Games have become more than just a favorite hobby for many, a lifestyle for some, even an obsession for a few. Developers love having legions of rabid fans till something like this happens then its the whole "gaming culture has a problem" thing again.

Almost like a drug dealer saying "no heroin today, our market study says we would have a broader audience if we sold potatoes, here have a potato you will like it more...Why are you mad, put down the knife...our customers have a problem"

Fair dues to you Jim for Saying it bluntly and crudely so that there is no doubt.

All of you have have endorsed or defended or tried to legitimise this type of disgusting behaviour. Shame on you. You are contemptible human beings. Shame on you.

IamLEAM1983:

themilo504:
This episode is really kind of pointless, everybody with a brain already knows that this kind of behavior is bad and the rest are too stupid to ever understand that.

It's not entirely useless; the gaming culture has had to live with its purported immaturity for a long time, but the thing is I'm not an awkward teen any longer. Being an adult, I have to behave as such, even in the confines of a pastime of mine. Those of us who can reason need to speak out, for fear that the media will consistently portray us as immature. Those idiots who threaten CoD devs over weapon rebalances have deeper issues to work through than I will ever have - and they have the gall of being in my age range or to hold down jobs that require social interactions - something which I wouldn't recommend to any confirmed rager or rage-quitter.

The medium itself has matured, but the players haven't. Life doesn't revolve around sweet 360 noscope shots or trick grenade tosses. No employer will ever care if someone mentions they've Prestiged in Black Ops II for a straight month. The MLG circuit can't be counted on as a serious breadwinner if you're going to be unsportsmanlike about your wins or losses.

I could go on like this for quite a while. It's not so much the ragers who need to be reformed as the general public that needs to understand that gaming is like coffee: you can enjoy your daily two or three cups, or you can go freaking Honoré de Balzac over your java and land yourself an A-grade cardiac arrest that cuts your career woefully short. Let's all learn to ignore the dipshits, gamers and non-gamers alike.

Well, yes and no.
Whether you think this episode is "entirely useless" or not is up to you, but I think it is. The thing is that those vocal minorities practically exist everywhere. If you look at games specifically, you'll notice that many of them (probably even the most) are small children who shouldn't be playing those games in the first place. How can I know? Well, my favorite genre is shooters and given that fact I have played online FPS' for quite a bit already. You can tell by the voice when they shout at you.
My point is that I doubt that any of this small [insert mean word here] that are so crazy about a game to behave in such a manner, will see this video and change. They will grow up and eventually* change, with or without this video.

IamLEAM1983:
[...]The medium itself has matured, but the players haven't.[...]

Wrong.
It should be "The medium itself has matured, but not all the players have already."
Please don't generalize, I know society does, but you don't need to.

Retrograde:
A woman is threatened on the internet in a grossly disproportionate manner. I was wondering when we'd have a brouhaha about how some stupid people doing stupid people shit and one/some woman/women taking it all too seriously means that gaming is sexist and we're sexist.

BRB, gotta flaggelate.

And in case you're wondering, no I didn't watch past the first minute or so, there really isn't a need to at this point.

Lady Victim, evil sexists, misogyny, gaming needs to change, THE ISSUE, etc.

Edit: Well blow me down, I've since been convinced to watch the video and while the basis of the whole thing has only happened because someone thought it was acceptable to lay into a woman, the content itself managed to subvert expectations. Good work Jim I guess.

Too bad you didn't feel the pressing need to stand up and be the hero we apparently needed when all the men you mentioned were getting threatened with death, but better late than never I guess.

Thank you kindly, for making it very clear that I need not ever take your posts into consideration.

Not only did you skip the video, and then made an opinion about how bad it was. You also, then watched it, and then still missed the point.

Jim isn't doing this video now, because some woman in the industry got death threats. Jim did it now because the person threatened her kids.

That's why the title is "I'm going to murder your children". It's about the children, who other than being the kids of the writer, have nothing to do with the game, and are not "putting themselves out there on the internet" like someone very involved with the game has to do.

The person who tried to make this all about sexism was you.

What it IS about is that death threats to anyone(even if they are made on the internet), should never be tolerated.
Those that make death threats to anyone, man, woman, and especially to children. Deserve nothing short of legal punishment, and social scorn.

uanime5:
I suspect Jim fails to provide a reason why the topic was changed because he doesn't have a real reason. He could have easily ignored these threats and talked about his DLC topic as planned, so his attempts to blame this on other people is somewhat immature.

Jim also ignores that Hepler was responsible for writing the story for Dragon Age 2 so she was responsible for many of the things that were wrong with it; specifically the bad story and inconsistent characters. The fact that Jim seems to believe that Hepler was being abused for being creative, rather being than utterly inept and writing terrible stories, just shows that he hasn't bothered to research why people didn't like her. Jim's attempts to deify Hepler to hide his white knighting isn't fooling anyone.

He doesn't ignore it because it wasn't the case. Hepler was a senior writer, not the lead writer. She would likely have written a few sidequests and characters, but the lead writer, who was responsible for the main plot, was David Gaider.

IKWerewolf:

jluzar20:
Is it just me, or has Jim's episodes been less and less entertaining and more brow beating over time? Nothing better than being called a "sick fuck" when this was the first I've heard of the Dragon Age lady thing.

Yeah, I know he's not calling me a sick fuck personally, but white knights always leave a bitter taste in my mouth. Especially so when you chastise a crowd in order to speak to a few. Shoulda stuck to the dildo, Jim.

Unfortunately whether we like it or not, this vocal minority is the reason why gaming as an industry is not entirely taken seriously. We can attack the developers as much as we like about their decisions and how they are ruining the industry but there is this vocal minority that can dictate through threat and abuse the way people operate like school yard bullies, it is this sort of attitude that will force us back to this topic again and again.

I'm actually surprised Police forces have not made arrests; as far I was aware death threats are a criminal offence?

It is because they are so vocal that they are a problem.
I have a very good quote from a good friend of mine:
"The more stupid you are the more stupid opinions you will hold and also have a greater urge to voice those stupid opinions to other stupid people or smart too for that matter, and in the end everyone will seem to care, in comparison to the reverse scenario"

Basically, when smart people say smart things not as loud and not as often as stupid people say stupid things, then we dont listen but, we WILL for some reason listen to all the toxic behaviour....

Gamer Logic /facedesk

canadamus_prime:

Because the rest of the world doesn't see individuals, the rest of the world only sees the collective and the actions of these few very vocal morons are seen to be the example of the entire collective.

Why am I having to explain this?

Firstly, you aren't having to explain anything.

Secondly, anybody who gives enough of a fuck about gaming and gamer culture to know who the hell Hepler even is(and honestly, a week ago I think it's fair to say we pretty much all forgot that someone called Jennifer Hepler got a load of shit ages ago) would see this story through the lens of people like Jim 'Fuck You you idiots' Sterling and sites running this and calling it a 'plague'. We aren't as relevant on the world stage as you seem to think.

Great episode as usual Jim. I think at some point though we could use an episode on the point of all these message episodes. Their are way to many people thinking this is just idiots being idiots and it has nothing to do with them, and that it can never change. The ones who sit in silence and ignore the problem will always bear some part of the blame for the problem continuing, and that is why I thank god for you, and people like you. (Not that I am actually theist but you gotta run with a theme.)

I suppose I can wait 8 more days before I wish lingering cancer upon a QA tester's child in utero for you Jim.
You got lucky Skyrim QA tester, your menial uncorrected game bug will go forgotten, for now...

Bruce:

uanime5:
I suspect Jim fails to provide a reason why the topic was changed because he doesn't have a real reason. He could have easily ignored these threats and talked about his DLC topic as planned, so his attempts to blame this on other people is somewhat immature.

Jim also ignores that Hepler was responsible for writing the story for Dragon Age 2 so she was responsible for many of the things that were wrong with it; specifically the bad story and inconsistent characters. The fact that Jim seems to believe that Hepler was being abused for being creative, rather being than utterly inept and writing terrible stories, just shows that he hasn't bothered to research why people didn't like her. Jim's attempts to deify Hepler to hide his white knighting isn't fooling anyone.

He doesn't ignore it because it wasn't the case. Hepler was a senior writer, not the lead writer. She would likely have written a few sidequests and characters, but the lead writer, who was responsible for the main plot, was David Gaider.

Dat sexist elephant in the room is starting to smell...

haha, captcha: Smelling Salt

Brian Tams:
And yet Gamers throw a hissy fit when the media brands us as psychotic mass-murderers waiting to happen.

Gee, I wonder why. Can't possibly be all the death threats we tend to throw at developers we hate, now can it?

Presumable response:

raaaaaaagh your just paintign us with the same burhs how dare you were not all the same and im going to find you i are an veteran in gorilla warfare

Et cetera.

The bad press certainly exist for a reason. Yes, being judged by the actions of someone you don't approve of or agree with in any way is very frustrating. But then again, the approval of mass media might not always be as important as mass media would like to think. What matters is that the people who do act like decent people continue to do that, and call out the people that don't when they act in ways that are unacceptable.

Even if that does risk you being labeled as a white knight. There are much worse things to be called.

Vareoth:
Came for the lecture, staying for the dildo. I wonder if he got it in a fancy colour...

For some reason, I imagine it's leopard spotted. I don't know why.

Retrograde:

canadamus_prime:

Because the rest of the world doesn't see individuals, the rest of the world only sees the collective and the actions of these few very vocal morons are seen to be the example of the entire collective.

Why am I having to explain this?

Firstly, you aren't having to explain anything.

Secondly, anybody who gives enough of a fuck about gaming and gamer culture to know who the hell Hepler even is(and honestly, a week ago I think it's fair to say we pretty much all forgot that someone called Jennifer Hepler got a load of shit ages ago) would see this story through the lens of people like Jim 'Fuck You you idiots' Sterling and sites running this and calling it a 'plague'. We aren't as relevant on the world stage as you seem to think.

Still doesn't make me want to associate myself with these diackheads or call myself a gamer for that matter.

IamLEAM1983:
*complaints about immature children playing video games*

I'm not trying to misrepresent your argument, something about having a stack of quotes within quotes and giant posts just sort of irks me, so please don't take this the wrong way.

But the terrible, immature, rude, obnoxious gamers who make the rest of us look bad has always been an issue, and we all know it. This much is true, but there's one problem with Jim coming to a site like this and speaking directly at the camera to chastise us with generalities about our behavior as a community: We're not those people.

For the most part, the sort of gamers who do that, the ones who insult and send death threats, and whip their controllers across the room when they lose, and send death threats to developers for patching their favorite sniper rifle, and infect the whole community with an air of hostility and vulgarity don't come to sites like this. They don't. They don't partake in any larger communities or talks of the quality of video game narratives and the growth of the industry. Their circle of gaming begins and ends with their immediate friends and the matchmaking lobby of the latest call of duty.

So, yeah.. We all know it's BS to threatened someone and call for the horrible deaths of their children. We get that. We don't need to be lectured like children with snark and hyperbole every time someone gets hassled.

And just because it's worth mentioning, since Jim won't talk about this sort of thing, but take a look at this. http://gamerfury.tumblr.com/ That's some of the collection of some of the tweets that one of the Call of Duty developers received, which Jim mentioned.

Retrograde:

canadamus_prime:

Because the rest of the world doesn't see individuals, the rest of the world only sees the collective and the actions of these few very vocal morons are seen to be the example of the entire collective.

Why am I having to explain this?

Firstly, you aren't having to explain anything.

Secondly, anybody who gives enough of a fuck about gaming and gamer culture to know who the hell Hepler even is(and honestly, a week ago I think it's fair to say we pretty much all forgot that someone called Jennifer Hepler got a load of shit ages ago) would see this story through the lens of people like Jim 'Fuck You you idiots' Sterling and sites running this and calling it a 'plague'. We aren't as relevant on the world stage as you seem to think.

Firstly people like you and other of equal intelligent brilliance does seem to somehow need to explained to them multiple times, because reasons

Secondly: dat logical fallacy. So basically anyone who takes this seriously will only hold one perspective of opinion on this subject and refuse to accept any other argument presented or any different point of view, regardless if it disagrees or agrees
uhm..ok

1) Why is gaming being singled out? Why does this video make it out to be that gamers are the only ones doing this? This happens within any fan-base of fiction that has fanatics of the source material. You'll find the same amount of bile thrown around in movie and book communities as well. That doesn't excuse reprehensible behavior, but it is hardly a problem exclusive to the gaming industry. This is not a problem with gamers; this is a problem with the internet.

2) Who was this video made for? If you are having to explain to someone that the death threats they made to a creative talent are bad, then that person is stupid, amoral, and the message of this video would be lost on him or her. I highly doubt 99% of the Jimquisition viewership would ever do this sort of thing, and I doubt even more that they needed to be told that threatening people is bad. Nobody with a brain can disagree with, "Death threats are bad." This is preaching to the choir in the purest form.

3) I look forward to your video on DLC next week. I will be glad to get away from the politics surrounding video games, and I'm ready to get back to talking about video games...

It's kinda sad that the first thing i noticed about this episode wasn't the title, but rather the Fern Gully pic on the episode picture xD

canadamus_prime:

Retrograde:

canadamus_prime:

Because the rest of the world doesn't see individuals, the rest of the world only sees the collective and the actions of these few very vocal morons are seen to be the example of the entire collective.

Why am I having to explain this?

Firstly, you aren't having to explain anything.

Secondly, anybody who gives enough of a fuck about gaming and gamer culture to know who the hell Hepler even is(and honestly, a week ago I think it's fair to say we pretty much all forgot that someone called Jennifer Hepler got a load of shit ages ago) would see this story through the lens of people like Jim 'Fuck You you idiots' Sterling and sites running this and calling it a 'plague'. We aren't as relevant on the world stage as you seem to think.

Still doesn't make me want to associate myself with these diackheads or call myself a gamer for that matter.

Who says you need or have to, thats entirely individual as far as im concerned and its not your duty and neither are you obligated to label yourself as such, or on the other hand, label said people as gamers. The reality still stands, there are always a few bad apples that spoiled the bunch, birds of a feather flock together yknow.

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