The Big Picture: In Defense of "Booth Babes" (sort of)

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Sgt. Sykes:
The Escapist is now officially annoying with this inclusiveness bullshit. Jim Sterling and Bob won't shut up about it. Seriously guys don't you have anything else to talk about? Okay, I get it! We need more women to play games, more inclusiveness, less trolling, less this or that, OKAY ALREADY NOW STOP SHOVING IT DOWN MY MOUTH.

Are you upset that you aren't being included, and have to watch things you don't agree with? You could always go to another website.

daibakuha:
Hepler was only involved in the writing of 2 games. Dragon Age 1 and 2 (some parts of 3 as well from what i hear). Dragon Age 2's problems were in repetitive environments and wave based combat sections. Neither of which is her fault because she's not in charge of any other part of the game other than some writing. She's not even the head writer for the games she's involved with.

DA2 had a whole host of problems besides repetitive environments and wave based combat; such as the plot and characters. Though act 1 only had minor problems, Act 2 had Mother Petrice killing the Viscount's son in the Chantry and was somehow trying to blame the player for this. Act 3 is where the entire story breaks down to such a degree that the player doesn't go from quest to quest but has to finish a quest, then get a new quest in the mail. Let's not forget that despite Hawke being a wealthy hero neither he nor anyone else tries to punish Meredith for effective taking control of Kirkwall for 3 years, Anders blows up the Chancery because he hates the Templars rather than the Templar's head quarters, and you have to fight both Orsino and Meredith no matter who you side with.

Hepler was a senior writer meaning she was involved with characters and side quests so it's fair to blame her for the bad romantic dialogue and inconsistent characters in DA2. The dialogue in Mass Effect 3 also seems to be bad in a similar way, which makes me believe that she was also involved with it.

While Gaiden is ultimately responsible for the bad plot this doesn't mean that Hepler wasn't also responsible for the bad writing.

Lastly, she doesn't have any "anti-game attitude". She never stated she hated interactivity or anything of the sort. She simply stated that she dislikes the combat sections of some games. That she prefers story to gameplay. This isn't some evil conception that ruins games, it's an attitude that a lot of gamers have as well.

When you're designing games that involve large amounts of combat saying that you want a button to skip these sections to focus on the story (which she's partially responsible for writing) won't endear you to people who play these games. Especially when people hate the story and gameplayer, and are looking for someone to blame.

And even if she was the worst writer in the history of video games, that still doesn't justify death threats, in any way. The fact that you think this is somehow ok, says more about as an individual than anything else.

The fact that you ignored my point to create a strawman says a lot about you as well. All I said was that if writers dismiss legitimate criticism by calling gamers "entitled", as Hepler did, they shouldn't be surprised if people stop using legitimate criticism and start using threats instead. Writers need to accept that not everything they do is wonderful and try to learn from criticism, not complain when everyone isn't praising them all the time.

Ashoten:
I will not respond to responses. I will delete all in my inbox before reading because I do not feel like being called a misogynist for trying to bring some sanity and understanding to a situation.

Then I will not bother to read your post, because if the only condition under which you will engage in a conversation is if the flow of information is exclusively from you to us with no input from us allowed, then I will not grant you a greater courtesy in digesting your opinion than you will grant me.

JimB:
Oh, fuck every inch of that. The idea that disagreeing with people about make-believe justifies threats to end the life of not only the person disagreeing with her but also the lives of her children is beyond entitled; it's straight up evil.

Since when has repeatedly ruining the story in games been considered make believe?

uanime5:

JimB:
Oh, fuck every inch of that. The idea that disagreeing with people about make-believe justifies threats to end the life of not only the person disagreeing with her but also the lives of her children is beyond entitled; it's straight up evil.

Since when has repeatedly ruining the story in games been considered make believe?

Your argument here is, "Ms. Hepler, you stand convicted of the crime of not telling a story about dragons well enough to meet my personal expectations. This is a crime for which the punishment is death, not only for you but for your children because the evil of your crime of not telling a story about dragons I like is such that we cannot risk your children inheriting the mantle of your evil."

Anyone who considers the above a statement of justice is plainly deranged.

carnex:

omega 616:
I don't like the idea of booth babes (yeah, I know), I also don't like lollipop chainsaw, bayonetta or dragons crown either.

I just think we need to take away some sexy from games.

I've heard all the arguments before, "it's not sexist 'cos they aren't humiliating the women", "it's not sexist 'cos it's not trying to be sexist", "it's not sexist 'cos it's taking the piss out of game design" etc. It's a woman running round in a very revealing set of clothes, that might as well just be her underwear.

I'm not saying make all women wear burkas but a little modesty wouldn't ruin the game!

While some dresses are ridiculous enough to breake immersion, WTF?

Literature: 50 shades of Grey. Mainstream megahit. Half of book are gratuitous and detailed descriptions of BDSM sessions between lover with wide age disparity.

Still Visual Arts: I can make painting (or sculpture or photo) of naked woman (or during sex act if creative enough), anatomically correct or sexually exaggerated (statue even with convenient and perfectly sized holes in anatomically correct places) and sell it on a street as "artwork" even if it is anything but.

Movies: Drive Angry. Gorry battle scene during which female stays on hero's penis.

Music: Smack my bitch up... there are far worse examples, but I can't remember them

Games: Girl in somewhat inappropriate clothing slays tones of enemies?

Doesn't really sound the same level, does it? We'll outgrow it and understand that there are games with sex appeal and games that don't go for sex appeal. It took Hollywood 40 years to outgrow it's own "head up it's own arse" problem

I'm not much of a book or art guy but lets go with it.

You named A big popular book that is about sex, is there any others? Don't say the Kama sutra.

Art, well a lot of sculptures and paintings have the odd boob, the occasional dick but there are millions of pieces with no such thing. Just random bits of scenery, boats, portraits etc

Movies imply sex, they always have a hot passionate kiss, then waking up the next day with underwear on. Unless you're watching love and other drugs or a porno.

Games, holy fuck knuckle Batman! The it's like a nudist camp, woman only! Mass effect 2 you meet Jack who is wearing nothing but belts to cover up, how many in game shots of Ashley's ass do we need? Dragon age, Morrigan is wearing a red shredded top and bikini, the obvious suspects like Bayonetta, lollipop chainsaw (which even had an achievement to look up her skirt) and dragons crown, think of all the female characters in fighting games and loads more.

There are a handful of females who aren't rocking underwear as casual dress.

Imagine playing a game, you play as a guy who muscular as all hell, no shirt, tight speedo's so you can see the outline of his junk ... maybe a cheeky testicle popping out the side, would you play that game? You can make your guy look like that in "Loadout", you can even make him butt naked with his impressive member blurred out, so he runs around the battlefield wearing nothing but a grimace!

That game wouldn't sell at all, it would be surrounded in "omg, it's so grotesque!". Gaming is still a boys club and they market it that way, to there junk.

uanime5:

JimB:
Oh, fuck every inch of that. The idea that disagreeing with people about make-believe justifies threats to end the life of not only the person disagreeing with her but also the lives of her children is beyond entitled; it's straight up evil.

Since when has repeatedly ruining the story in games been considered make believe?

Since when has Hepler been repeatedly ruining the story in games? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here; I seriously want to know what, exactly, she wrote that everyone finds so damn horrible. Did you not like Orzammar and the Anvil of the Void from Origins? Or was it the several characters and the Legacy DLC from 2 that inspired this immense hatred?

Lunar Templar:
*sighs*

we really are getting a LOT of 'common sense' content lately, it's getting kinda depressing.

as Voltaire said, 'common sense isn't so common'. Just look at the Darwin Awards and What The F*** Is Wrong With You?

(It always made me smile that one particular pen and paper RPG had 'common sense' as a very expensive advantage you had to buy)

Ashoten:
snip

Interesting point of view. Having always hidden my love for games in highschool I never faced social judgement for it so I never looked at that way. My personal distaste for the wannabe social justice league who are plaguing video games with pseudo-inclusiveness is that they are using devious tactics, which they probably fought against in other contexts (irony), to change how games are made. While this is slightly off topic being against so called "misogynistic" games is all but inclusive because they're actually lobbying against games some people like and thus exclude them. The only way to be inclusive is to create more games which don't fit said criteria. However that would actually involve efforts among consumers (pushing people to buy games fitting said "inclusiveness" criteria more to send the signal they are worth more and thus should be produced more) and i'll be damned if consumers start taking responsibility...

But anyway, it seems people are just way too quick to throw damning words like "sexism" and "misogyny" and don't want context. They don't want to be told that the gaming world isn't black and white and that there is a lot of grey because that would mean the debate requires more finesse and nuance.

Yesh, if Moviebob ever read the comment to his videos, he must think he is asking for the impssibles for this one.

Valderis:
People are sometimes assholes to either other, guys seem to have to suck it up...

Apparently not. This thread alone demonstrates how many guys are not willing to "suck it up" - in fact, I'd say that women are doing a much better job on that front.

You hardly see any women lashing out against males these days, but there are countless threads of males whining about feminism and "White Knighting."

omega 616:

I'm not much of a book or art guy but lets go with it.

You named A big popular book that is about sex, is there any others? Don't say the Kama sutra.

Art, well a lot of sculptures and paintings have the odd boob, the occasional dick but there are millions of pieces with no such thing. Just random bits of scenery, boats, portraits etc

Movies imply sex, they always have a hot passionate kiss, then waking up the next day with underwear on. Unless you're watching love and other drugs or a porno.

Games, holy fuck knuckle Batman! The it's like a nudist camp, woman only! Mass effect 2 you meet Jack who is wearing nothing but belts to cover up, how many in game shots of Ashley's ass do we need? Dragon age, Morrigan is wearing a red shredded top and bikini, the obvious suspects like Bayonetta, lollipop chainsaw (which even had an achievement to look up her skirt) and dragons crown, think of all the female characters in fighting games and loads more.

There are a handful of females who aren't rocking underwear as casual dress.

Imagine playing a game, you play as a guy who muscular as all hell, no shirt, tight speedo's so you can see the outline of his junk ... maybe a cheeky testicle popping out the side, would you play that game? You can make your guy look like that in "Loadout", you can even make him butt naked with his impressive member blurred out, so he runs around the battlefield wearing nothing but a grimace!

That game wouldn't sell at all, it would be surrounded in "omg, it's so grotesque!". Gaming is still a boys club and they market it that way, to there junk.

Any barbarian would fit your description. and I played quite a few japanese games with such males. don't care.

As a book and art guy, I can say that there is a LOT of sex and violence and over the place. The more it's targeted towards mainstream, the more sex an gore it will contain.

Nice point with Jack. Othen then her clothes were deliberately chosen to puncuate her messed up brain, you can hardly find less dressed character. Yet I can start naming pages of less apropriate dressed female characters.

I'm not saying that there arent inapropriately dressed characters. i'm saying that it's not a problem. Just label them and their games as such. Even Ripley in Aliens, ultimate badass, was eyecandy. It sells.

Get over your own views. You are free, ofcourse, to advocate against it. But it isn't bad. Hell, I see less dressed females at work.

omega 616:

Imagine playing a game, you play as a guy who muscular as all hell, no shirt, tight speedo's so you can see the outline of his junk ... maybe a cheeky testicle popping out the side, would you play that game? You can make your guy look like that in "Loadout", you can even make him butt naked with his impressive member blurred out, so he runs around the battlefield wearing nothing but a grimace!

That game wouldn't sell at all, it would be surrounded in "omg, it's so grotesque!". Gaming is still a boys club and they market it that way, to there junk.

Oh HELL YES I HAVE!!

It's a D&D game but set in the outer plane of Lust where love is literally in the air, the landscape are rolling hills of giant breasts and huge cocks stand erect in forests. You have to gain many sexual skills in order to combat the various horny obstacles that stand in your way.

Those that have the balls to play this game with the main intended character, a true manly man the likes of He-Man himself, will be in for the ride of their lives and an experience unlike any other game ever made.

It would be GLORIOUS!!!!!

Hoo Lordy, what can I say about this issue that won't ruffle anymore feathers?

Aardvaarkman:

Sgt. Sykes:
The Escapist is now officially annoying with this inclusiveness bullshit. Jim Sterling and Bob won't shut up about it. Seriously guys, don't you have anything else to talk about? Okay, I get it! We need more women to play games, more inclusiveness, less trolling, less this or that, okay already stop shoving it down my throat.

Are you upset that you aren't being included, and have to watch things you don't agree with? You could always go to another website.

Aardvaarkman:

Valderis:
Guys seem to have to suck it up...

Apparently not. This thread alone demonstrates how many guys are not willing to "suck it up" - in fact, I'd say that women are doing a much better job on that front.

You hardly see any women lashing out against males these days, but there are countless threads of males whining about feminism and "white knighting."

Oh my god. Aardvaarkman, you are my fucking hero. I am trying to think of some adequate expression of my combination of gratitude and awe at this moment, and the best I can come up with--woefully poor example though it is--is that I would love to treat you to a steak dinner some time.

I guess its just a heterosexual thing? I don't understand it because as a homosexual male I don't care if there is an attractive woman at a booth or not, if I don't like the game series I'm not going to be won over even by a shirtless, short shorted Brad Pitt. No matter how much I kind of wish that was a thing.

I know a lot of girls and woman that are as or more into gaming than I am. I know a girl, as an example, who plays more games in a year than I could ever hope to, she is informed about the culture and state of various series but when she plays online games people (boys mostly) still seem to think she is nothing more than a "fake" gamer girl and I've heard the level sexist insults that get thrown around, its a total slap in the face for my entire gender. Men behaving badly makes us all seem bad by proxy.

Valderis:

omega 616:

Imagine playing a game, you play as a guy who muscular as all hell, no shirt, tight speedo's so you can see the outline of his junk ... maybe a cheeky testicle popping out the side, would you play that game? You can make your guy look like that in "Loadout", you can even make him butt naked with his impressive member blurred out, so he runs around the battlefield wearing nothing but a grimace!

That game wouldn't sell at all, it would be surrounded in "omg, it's so grotesque!". Gaming is still a boys club and they market it that way, to there junk.

Oh HELL YES I HAVE!!

It's a D&D game but set in the outer plane of Lust where love is literally in the air, the landscape are rolling hills of giant breasts and huge cocks stand erect in forests. You have to gain many sexual skills in order to combat the various horny obstacles that stand in your way.

Those that have the balls to play this game with the main intended character, a true manly man the likes of He-Man himself, will be in for the ride of their lives and an experience unlike any other game ever made.

It would be GLORIOUS!!!!!

Or you can play one of Cho Aniki games.

JimB:
I am trying to think of some adequate expression of my combination of gratitude and awe at this moment, and the best I can come up with--woefully poor example though it is--is that I would love to treat you to a steak dinner some time.

I do enjoy a good steak.

carnex:

Or you can play one of Cho Aniki games.

That is one hell of a cracktastic game but its not enough.

Besides, its from 1992 so I'd like to see something new.

carnex:
Any barbarian would fit your description. and I played quite a few japanese games with such males. don't care.

As a book and art guy, I can say that there is a LOT of sex and violence and over the place. The more it's targeted towards mainstream, the more sex an gore it will contain.

Nice point with Jack. Othen then her clothes were deliberately chosen to puncuate her messed up brain, you can hardly find less dressed character. Yet I can start naming pages of less apropriate dressed female characters.

I'm not saying that there arent inapropriately dressed characters. i'm saying that it's not a problem. Just label them and their games as such. Even Ripley in Aliens, ultimate badass, was eyecandy. It sells.

Get over your own views. You are free, of course, to advocate against it. But isn't bad. Hell, I see less dressed females at work.

Which is my problem with it, I want to look at a woman and just see a woman, not she is there as eye candy. That made no sense but I don't know how else to put it, I want her to be a part of the plot and not just there to make me buy the game or think "I'd tap that!".

If I'm playing mass effect I want Jack to run out of the place wearing bright orange overalls, like prisoners do 'cos that is what she is! When she is on the ship give her the alternate costume, the one with the leather jacket. Morrigan in dragon age would have looked so much better by just putting a black top under that red thing but no, they went with tits out.

I'm not just like this with games, I hate listening to locker room talk ... my supervisor is always saying shit like "it's a fine end" or "that is fit", he has just objectified her so much that she is no longer a person or has a gender, she is an "it or that". I would just love to say "she is a woman and she is more than what you see".

LifeCharacter:

uanime5:

JimB:
Oh, fuck every inch of that. The idea that disagreeing with people about make-believe justifies threats to end the life of not only the person disagreeing with her but also the lives of her children is beyond entitled; it's straight up evil.

Since when has repeatedly ruining the story in games been considered make believe?

Since when has Hepler been repeatedly ruining the story in games? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here; I seriously want to know what, exactly, she wrote that everyone finds so damn horrible. Did you not like Orzammar and the Anvil of the Void from Origins? Or was it the several characters and the Legacy DLC from 2 that inspired this immense hatred?

Don't waste your time. uanime5 has been presented with facts disputing his claims before. He disregards them because they run contrary with what he thinks happened.

Again, with Jack you are missing the point. Lack of clotches is key part of her character presentation. No other character would be seen in that even if their life depended on it and that is exactly large part of why she wears it.

Now, if you want pointless clotching in mass effect, that would be justicar and her "boob slit".

Those are your sensebilities. Do you think you have right to force them on others? I'm not judging you or others, just asking.

Whoa whoa, booth babe meant professional models? I always assumed they meant just random women off the street cosplaying as overly-sexualized versions of popular characters. Shows how much I know about conventions.

But yeah while I disprove of boobs as a "HEY LOOK AT ME" type of marketing, I generally look down on the advertising company first rather then the actual models.

carnex:
Those are your sensibilities. Do you think you have right to force them on others?

Do you think you have the right to force onto others your sensibilities of not forcing sensibilities onto others? Let's not act as if having an opinion about the way things should be is some sort of fascism, please.

What am I forcing onto other? I'm forcing something by noting that it's not all nececarilly bad?

I think you are mistaking what "forcing your own opinion" means.

xaszatm:
1. I'm assuming you're talking about the interview. As such, let's get the specific question and response that got everyone's anger flared up.

Now, from your post that I originally replied to, you said that the death threats happened "because her writing was so bad that she ruined several games and made it clear that she hated video games that were interactive in any way." I didn't argue the first point as that is subjective and, as I am not a fan of the Dragon Age games period, I can't comment on the quality of the writing. However, reading that interview, while she did indeed say that playing the game itself was her least favorite part of the industry, she also talked of an alternative which pretty much plays as a "reverse skip cutscene" mechanic. Because there are some people who would prefer doing the story over doing the gameplay. I would that this position is perfectly fine to have, but obviously, you believe that your opinion is more correct.

Since you put a lot of thought into your post allow me to explain in detail why people had issues with what Hepler said. The easiest way to explain why so many people objected to her comments is to divide games into two categories: those based around stories and those based around combat.

Games based around stories are things such as visual novels where the player is able to influence the story and chose from a variety of endings. In each play through the story is likely to be different and people generally play these games for the story (or the nudity that comes with the story). On the rare occasion that these games require the player to do anything other than click the next button (such as playing a mini-game) I doubt there's anyone who will care if you're able to skip these sections.

Games based around combat are thing such as RPGs (example Baldur's Gate) where the story and most of the game will be the same. Here players enjoy building different characters, getting loot, levelling, and trying to beat the game through their own hard work. As the story well be almost identical in all play throughs it makes sense to be able to skip it.

The problem arises when someone asks for a way to skip combat in games such as Baldur's Gate to make it more like a visual novel, rather than asking for a visual novel version of Baldur's Gate. The latter is a reasonable request, while the former will be perceived as Hepler wanting to remove the fun part from a game to make this game more appealing to herself. So while I don't believe that Hepler intended to remove fun from games try to understand why some people consider what she said to be the same as demanding that gameplay be removed from games.

Personally I feel that anyone who wants a mechanism which lets you skip the gameplay so you can watch the cutscenes or read the story doesn't understand what a game is. It's like wanting to be able to remove the text from comics so you can spend more time looking at the pictures.

Now, on your second part, in the Jimquisition video, someone had posted the conversation that I just described. Unfortunately, it has been removed and I currently cannot find it. It was a twitter conversation that was what I had written about. I will try and find it because my word clearly holds no water to you, but if I don't find it, it's currently all I have.

Unless this conversation shows that the person making the threats lives anywhere near Hepler it doesn't show that she was in immediate danger.

Now for the third part, and the one that just confuses me with great sadness. To put it simply, yes. Yes, I do not understand your third point. When I read it, I am seeing you justify threatening to kill the children of a writer someone did not like. And how do you justify it? Because she didn't respond to criticism. I'm sorry? I thought artists had the right to do whatever they pleased as long as it doesn't directly affect someone else. People do have the right to criticize. They do have the right to complain about the lack of quality. The second someone threatens the person directly or indirectly, that right disappears. This is what goes through my head when I read that last sentence. I literally cannot comprehend the connection between writing poorly and death threats. I thought that Annie Wilkins was to be feared, not modeled as a hero. You can chock my inability to comprehend to stupidity but still...I'm literally a wreck right now because I cannot comprehend.

Since my point confused you let me explain it simply. Imagine that you're a gamer who loved a game, such as Dragon Age or Mass Effect, but were very disappointed by the sequel. You then go onto the company's forum to complain. If the company is able to offer an explanation as to why the story had problems, state that they've learned from their mistakes and will try to make the next game better, apologises, or offers to fix the problems in a patch then the vast majority of gamers will be satisfied and nothing further will happen. Games such as Empire Total War and Diablo 3 had huge amounts of problems when they were first released but by working with their players they were able to fix these problems and make these games better.

However problems arise when companies such as Bioware refuse to accept that there are any problems, censor any posts that mention problems, and are abusive to their players by calling them "entitled". All this does is make gamers more angry and these angry gamers are going to look for someone to blame for the poor game and Bioware treating them like dirt. So when these gamers find a writer who's arrogant, was responsible in some way for the story they didn't like, and her views on gameplay make it seem like she favoured the poor combat system it's no surprise that these gamers took out all their frustration on her.

I suspect your were confused by my comments because you didn't actually research why these gamers were angry but automatically condemned them for being wrong about everything as soon as you heard that children were threatened. You remind me of all the people who condemn prisoners for rioting, while ignoring that the prison had been systematically abusing these prisoners. In future try to find the root cause of people's angry, rather than just assuming that they're angry for no reason.

In additional while artists have the right to do what they want they also have to bear the consequences of this. So if you write a song about how great it is to be a rapist you shouldn't be surprised if you receive a large amount of hated because of it. All rights have responsibilities, so don't start talking about rights as if they justify doing anything.

carnex:
What am I forcing onto others?

What are people who dislike Jack's "clothing" forcing onto you?

JimB:
Your argument here is, "Ms. Hepler, you stand convicted of the crime of not telling a story about dragons well enough to meet my personal expectations. This is a crime for which the punishment is death, not only for you but for your children because the evil of your crime of not telling a story about dragons I like is such that we cannot risk your children inheriting the mantle of your evil."

Anyone who considers the above a statement of justice is plainly deranged.

And your crime is ignoring what I wrote and replacing it with a strawman.

This video needed to be made? Huh... didn't know that the community sucked this bad. I didn't know that treating models like people was a problem... Are people really against this?

uanime5:

JimB:
Your argument here is, "Ms. Hepler, you stand convicted of the crime of not telling a story about dragons well enough to meet my personal expectations. This is a crime for which the punishment is death, not only for you but for your children because the evil of your crime of not telling a story about dragons I like is such that we cannot risk your children inheriting the mantle of your evil."

Anyone who considers the above a statement of justice is plainly deranged.

And your crime is ignoring what I wrote and replacing it with a strawman.

Nevertheless, that is my understanding of your position, since you clearly said that "ruining" a video game (whatever that even means) should cause a person to expect repercussions against herself and her family; and you said that in the context of acting as if death threats are appropriate repercussions. If I have misunderstood you, then I invite you to demonstrate where and how your stance differs from what I have described.

LifeCharacter:
Since when has Hepler been repeatedly ruining the story in games? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here; I seriously want to know what, exactly, she wrote that everyone finds so damn horrible. Did you not like Orzammar and the Anvil of the Void from Origins? Or was it the several characters and the Legacy DLC from 2 that inspired this immense hatred?

Mostly the fact that all characters are bisexuals with a high sex drive, so you can instantly begin a sexual relationship without having to develop it in any way. Seriously in Mass Effect 3 you just have to click the friendly icon in few dialogue boxes to become someone's lover. You never have to worry about a character being in another relationship, not being ready for a relationship, needing to develop this relationship in any way, or being refused because a character isn't gay.

One of the worst parts about Dragon Age 2 was that you didn't even need a character to like you to enter into a relationship with them. As long as you either praised or criticised them all the time they were a potential lover. seriously I don't need a bisexual harem to enjoy a game.

At the very least, this thread is powering me up.

Thanks for the fuel, guys, I think I feel an essay coming on. Please please continue.

LordLundar:
Don't waste your time. uanime5 has been presented with facts disputing his claims before. He disregards them because they run contrary with what he thinks happened.

The fact that you couldn't provide any evidence to repute anything I said indicates that what I've posted is correct and you're annoyed because the facts don't support you.

Wow... look at how many people are banned right off the bat. I didn't think this topic was THAT divisive.

JimB:

carnex:
What am I forcing onto others?

What are people who dislike Jack's "clothing" forcing onto you?

It's not about dislike. You can like and dislike as much as you want. Personal preferences are personal preferences and of no consequences to objective truth.

Misrepresentation and misintepretation, on the other hand, are objective mistakes. I don't see, for example, how does the huge clevlage Justicar Samara, in that same game, compliment her character in any way and ths ofered her as a better argument for his/her opinion. If I wanted to force my opinion onto others I wouldnt offer constructive cricisam and path to improve their own arguments.

I hope you can see what difference I allude to.

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