Jimquisition: Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

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Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video

Jimothy Sterling:
Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

While i cant speak about Last Of Us (i havnt played it) the issue i see brought up when refering to bioshock infinite is not that its violent but that when Elisabeth sees you murder she freaks out at you (very understandable) but less than 5 minutes later shes throwing ammo at you and such and enabling you to kill, thats where the issue comes in.

Jim, as far as I'm concerned, you are the gaming intelligentsia.

You and that Kieron Gillen fellow, anyway. Who, coinciwobbily, said much the same thing about Infinite.

Edit: Found the quote: "The problems are not necessarily problems. It's possible that some of the problems are merely the form."

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/06/about-a-girl-assorted-thoughts-on-bioshock-infinite/
Link, because it's relevant.

http://effingarcade.tumblr.com/tagged/Bioshock-Infinite
Another link that is relevant. Talking about "gaming cringe" and people dismissing Infinite because of its violence.

Spoiler warnings to both.

spartandude:
While i cant speak about Last Of Us (i havnt played it) the issue i see brought up when refering to bioshock infinite is not that its violent but that when Elisabeth sees you murder she freaks out at you (very understandable) but less than 5 minutes later shes throwing ammo at you and such and enabling you to kill, thats where the issue comes in.

While I agree that her transition seemed quick, the essential point is that she realized that in order to achieve her goals, she would have to engage in violence.

Very much agreed. And very good point about Bioshock Infinite. To me it was very evident that Booker is in fact a violent man and sadistic to boot. He doesn't like it, but when pressed against the wall his brutal, sadistic nature comes clean.

Anyhow, the best ways to impress a human being is to show sex, violence or food. Such is the bestial nature of mankind.

Never be afraid to talk about gender issues or pubs being dicks Jim. At best it informs the uninformed, and at worst it pisses off the whiny haters who want the press to "move on". Everybody wins!

And while violence has never taken me out of a game, the sheer number of people a protagonist can kill can be jarring. I think my kill count by the end of the Last of Us was near 500. Nathan Drake comes off especially psychopathy when he snarks and quips ten seconds after butchering an entire battalion of soldiers.

I remember Moviebob did an episode on Livogargum Dibdoduckette
Link ( http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-episode-86-stop-talking-me-about-ludonarrative-diss )

He covered it very differently so it's worth a look.

spartandude:
While i cant speak about Last Of Us (i havnt played it) the issue i see brought up when refering to bioshock infinite is not that its violent but that when Elisabeth sees you murder she freaks out at you (very understandable) but less than 5 minutes later shes throwing ammo at you and such and enabling you to kill, thats where the issue comes in.

That happens once she realizes that it's kill or be killed. A lot of people can ignore their usual moral code when it comes to survival.
And she really don't want to go back to that tower.

Lugoscababib-Discobiscuits
if twerking can get into the dictionary, we can get this in.

We are not worthy, O Jim!

Best episode in ages. Several good points very well made sir!

And anything that says anything positive about The Last of Us (at all) is A-Ok in my books.

So you mention the bird eating naked people, but you don't mention the man over to the left with a rather large flute or other primitive woodwind instrument embedded in his rectum?

I see your priorities have changed, Jim.

So are you just ignoring the fact that the whole "eating from trashcans" thing HAS in fact been brought up several times by several different people?

Your statement that "Nobody spent any time on this" is flat out false.

Bioshock Infinite is rife with Lubosnasra whatever, and much of it IS related to the violence.

One example is the fact that despite Elizabeth being aghast at the first murder spree of yours she witnesses, she never seems to care after that, not even when you break into the home of some innocent housewife and tear her fucking face off with your hook, Elizabeth just doesn't give a shit.

Couldn't agree more when it comes to Lubomoravcik Dildoseance. It's very rarely used correctly by anyone in the gaming community, reviewers or consumers. And those that can't use it correctly should stop, or learn when to use it.

Racecarlock:

Jimothy Sterling:
Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

To be fair, he doesn't seem to be accusing it of lulunermenerh dithonanthy, rather he's making the statement that the protagonists are markedly less sympathetic than in the past instalments.

I want direct examples!! For all the alleged criticism of Bioshock and The Last of Us.

Welcome back, I like the change of pace. I can't agree more, i hate intellectual idiots who try to sound like they know it all but miss the point completely. You can't even have a conversation with them because they (most of the time) become so defensive that the conversation turns into an argument. An argument where both sides loose because everyone participating is too busy believing that they are right and that everyone else is wrong. Hopefully some of those people will see this video and pull their nose out of the clouds. And maybe, just maybe, we can have more enjoyable conversations about the games we love, and fewer shouting matches.

Once again, i can't wait till next week. Thank God for you.

Tomb Raider starts off beautifully, and I was prepared to defend it to the death. But it wasn't far in that Lara goes from hiding and sometimes killing to mowing down waves of dudes. I lost it during the explosives duel because it was so damn stupid.

I think this speaks to another problem in gaming, that if we don't have violence gamers quickly tune out. However, that's another argument, so for now, I'll just agree. And also that it's stupid to talk about dissonance just because a game's violent.

Racecarlock:

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

Oh man, it's VIOLENT? I'm canceling my pre-order.

drizztmainsword:

While I agree that her transition seemed quick, the essential point is that she realized that in order to achieve her goals, she would have to engage in violence.

So, from the sound of it, it's not so much ludo-narrative dissonance as it is simply a storytelling contrivance?

DVS BSTrD:
Lugoscababib-Discobiscuits
if twerking can get into the dictionary, we can get this in.

Only if we can get Miley Cyrus to do it.

I don't think Bioshock infinite is a good game. That is not because of the violence but the lack in quality with said violence.

Pink Gregory:

Racecarlock:

Jimothy Sterling:
Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

To be fair, he doesn't seem to be accusing it of lulunermenerh dithonanthy, rather he's making the statement that the protagonists are markedly less sympathetic than in the past instalments.

I didn't say he was accusing it of dissonance. It's just that, well, isn't the new violent nature of the protagonists pretty much how most people play anyways? It's like accusing characters in a fighting game of liking fighting too much. Or accusing the humans in pokemon of animal abuse.

Racecarlock:

Jimothy Sterling:
Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

He didn't criticise it for being violent he criticised the characters and stated that he thought they didn't have any sympathetic aspects to their character, he gives examples in the review of characters who were sympathetic and violent, one of those beng the main character of GTA IV.

Goliath100:
I want direct examples!! For all the alleged criticism of Bioshock and The Last of Us.

The Tomb Raider one wasn't enough?

Howabout Final Fantasy VII's big spoiler, where even the most devastating move in the game is only a KO, but a single sword is an instant permanent kill because ponies. Hell, most JRPGs do things in the cut-scenes that are impossible(in gameplay) at best, and often fit into this trend because they contradict the gameplay. Or vice versa.

It's because people like to sound smart, and using the long words that other people has the benefit of making them look smart and having a similar opinion to other people. Hell, go into any heavy debate nowadays and you could play a drinking game with how many times people use words such as straw-man, false equivalence, ad hominem and so on completely incorrectly.

As for the point about when Bioshock does actually have ludonarrative dissonance, that pretty much comes down to people trying to make excuses for why they don't like things because they cannot find a proper reason to express it without simply saying "It doesn't fit my personal tastes". You see this all of the time when people will randomly decide when being "unrealistic" is a problem, and when it is perfectly okay.

To use Tomb Raider as an example some people wanted to act as though Lara's outfit was a problem because she never wore more appropriate clothing for a person in frequently harsh climates. But being shot several times and magically healing, being able to climb rock walls with the dexterity of a person who dedicates their life to it and being an expert marksmen within several minutes of first picking up a gun are perfectly acceptable.

It's also quite frequently a case of people picking up the word but not actually comprehending the specific meaning of it. The mainstream media keeps referring to "internet trolls" in their articles when the people they are describing are not trolls at all. They seem to have mistaken the fact that being nasty to somebody online is not the meaning of trolling, it just happens to often coincide with it, yet most articles referring to trolling simply use it as another term of bullying, harassing or threatening.

something different? I'm scared jim.

good episode jim,
but don't expect me to pick up that new catch phrase lol

Racecarlock:

Pink Gregory:

Racecarlock:

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

To be fair, he doesn't seem to be accusing it of lulunermenerh dithonanthy, rather he's making the statement that the protagonists are markedly less sympathetic than in the past instalments.

I didn't say he was accusing it of dissonance. It's just that, well, isn't the new violent nature of the protagonists pretty much how most people play anyways? It's like accusing characters in a fighting game of liking fighting too much. Or accusing the humans in pokemon of animal abuse.

Perhaps you have a point. I 'unno, I can think of a few reasons that Rockstar might not want to admit that publicly, though.

Vault Citizen:

Racecarlock:

Jimothy Sterling:
Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

He didn't criticise it for being violent he criticised the characters and stated that he thought they didn't have any sympathetic aspects to their character, he gives examples in the review of characters who were sympathetic and violent, one of those beng the main character of GTA IV.

Again, though, I think the new unsympathetic characters are still more relatable because they now reflect the actions that the player will take in the game anyways.

So, Jim, I have a question for you:
Would you be up for a special panel at the expo?

It would consist of you, sporting a full "Leiakini"-outfit being chained to me, a manatee (in a Habba the Hut costume no less) and being equipped with two floppy purple dildos slapping ex-childstars, failed and succesful alike, for a scientific experiment. You would be joined by Voliton developers wearing Palm-leaf-loincloths( who are also required to ward of the masses of unwashed germ-ridden fans that try to shake your hands and to carry you around on a golden throne but that's a given, really) also wielding floppy purple dinos.

OT: Nice work as always, I must remember to use "Luggagosctuit Discoball" more often from now on.

Good episode.

However I never saw that problem with Tomb Raider either, at least not as much as people seem to. It's a story of a girl who's trained both physically and to use weapons by an ex-special forces dude (you'll miss it if you don't pay attention). And the whole premise of the character arc is that she doesn't know herself. Hence after the first "that just happened" freakout, she shocks herself with what she can't do, "It's scary just how easy it was."

Yes the combat is exaggerated like in much of gaming but it is not completely at odds with the narrative or glossed over.

I always thought the major issue with the violence in BioShock Infinite wasn't that it conflicted with the story. It was that moving from highly populated streets in more peaceful sections clashed horribly with the deserted areas of the action sections. Yes, it isn't "ludonarrative dissonance", but it is annoying for some people to transition between the two, as it simply isn't smooth and indicates horrible pacing on the part of the game. This is only made worse when the action bits aren't that enjoyable compared to the more peaceful ones yet dominate so much of the game's time.

Interesting. While I don't disagree with your point about Bioshock, I would add though that while I personally loved Infinite (even more than the Last of Us) I was irritated somewhat at the pacing of the violence. Something more akin to the Last of Us, long periods of calm followed by short bursts of intense violence would have done a better job conveying Bookers dark nature and reinforcing the violent tone of the game by never letting us get inured to it. The beginning of the game did this perfectly, a long walk through the peaceful city, followed by a short burst of intense violence/blood at the raffle which kicks you into the mind set the game was going for.

Later when you're just mowing down waves of police officers it starts to lose its sense of weight and turns them more into generic game obstacles. The violence didn't undermine what the game was going for, but it could have presented in way that helped to reinforce it better. I would guess that was probably what many reviewers were going for. (BTW I'm heavily paraphrasing Extra Credits here, their episode "In service to the brand" did a better job explaining it then I probably did)

Overall great episode, nice to have something to look forward to on Mondays.

The violence never bothered me in bioshock infinite, what did bother me was how booker was a one man army gunning down thousands of cops soldiers and HUGE SPOILERS vox members, even with all of the vigor's he has that's ridiculous.

It also bugged me how long it took before soldiers started to appear, you would expect them to start showing up very quickly but instead they send out hundreds of ill-equipped cops to be gunned down in mass before bringing out the big guns.

I give you a different point of view.

First, I think violence is very prone to cause ludonarrative dissonance in many games (not sure what your problem is with the concept, it has an very simple definition that probably most people using it understand). The thing is, violence in video games come primarily from gameplay that is proven to work and that most developers don't want or don't know how to do alternatives to it. But, once you have that gameplay, the protagonist will come out pretty much as a psychopath from it. Therefore, any other characterization that you make of it is going to feel off for many players.

But, in my opinion, the core of the problem with TR, B:I and I guess tLoU, which I haven't played, has little to do with ludonarrative dissonace. In my opinion, the problem is that gamers are maturing and are starting to outgrow violence as the king of gameplay and plot in big amounts. Take Infinite, for example. While ludonarrative disonance may have appeared in the criticisms, the criticism that most people was actually making was basically: "I love the setting, I love the city you have built, why do you force me to shoot and shoot, when I would be much rather exploring it?". That's the core of the issue, people just require experiences that do not revolve around violence or that at least give violence less priority and the industry is unable to provide that. And Bioshock Infinite is for me the moment when this become clear.

Do have to agree with the people saying that Bioshock Infinite was too violent, not because it was ludonarritively dissonant but because the violent parts of that game were less fun for me than the quiter atmospheric parts. I would have enjoyed it more if it was less violent, therefore it was too violent.

That is a nice coat though Jim.

The 'WHAT!' at the end had me in stitches.

The argument about Infinate went abit deeper than merely being 'to violent' though Jim. You're right about Booker himself being an asshole and the people he comes into contact with are also scumbags but it was the fact that Columbia seemed to loose any semblance of a living city at the drop of a hat. The people disappeared, the soilders and air barges seemed to come streaming out of doorways and the fact that plasmids were readily available but barely anyone else was using them. The violance made sense in the story just not the way it played out.

You were right about the eating rubbish thing though, Booker had money I could have just bought a sandwich.

image
Also, that's one damn fine coat you're wearing.

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