Jimquisition: To Play The Villain

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Uratoh:
On the whole 'villains are the most compelling characters' bit, I must bring up Nox from Wakfu (if you haven't watched Wakfu, do eeeet). He's an unrepentant villain, wiping entire civilizations off the map, but when you learn his backstory and motivations (revealed over the season), you...understand why he's doing what he's doing.

I completely agree with you on that one. The first season of Wakfu was amazing primarily for having one of the best villains of all time, Noximilien!

image

Don't worry Jim, when I publish my book about magic space raccoons fighting fox-people in giant robots, I promise not to throw in a baculum if I send you a copy. (If you know what that means, I'm sorry). I find it interesting that you had to deal with a character that looked just like you being an outright monster.

Also, I wish I'd played GTA at any point so I could join in the conversation.

Personally I don't mind playing as a villain but if I get the chance I rather play as a good guy, and even if I don't get a choice I still try to play a good guy as much as I can when im in control.

geizr:

Imp Emissary:

geizr:

Don't worry. I knew what you were going for. Just wanted to give ya the right information. People have actually been complaining about GTAV getting 9/10s (or as Jim put it, "Whine out of ten").
What I said wasn't really to you, but to others who seem to be thinking everyone has got to like the same kind of things in games, or play for the same reasons.

And that the argument isn't about bad guys vs. good guys, but if you can enjoy being the characters or not.

Also, I agree with getting multiple reviews. Best way to get a feel for the game. For Example, Adam Sessler, from Rev 3 presented about the same situation that Greg did for his review for GTAV, but in a positive way. Different people will have different experiences, so you should get as many examples from people you share tastes with.

Jimothy Sterling:
To Play The Villain

Some gamers are skipping Grand Theft Auto V, unwilling to play the role of a thief, a gangbanger, or a psychopath. While others may shy away from being the villain, Jim Sterling actively revels in it.

Watch Video

Well, I'm kind of hoping your new found reading material finds it's way into your poetry Jim!

3,5/10? I see 3,5/5, which somewhat is a different thing, no? Whatever, i don't care too much about scores anyways.

However, both points taken, on one side the dislike of "having to play a horrible person" and on the other side being fascinated by it. I'd say, that's part of what's so awesome about video games, being able to "walk in someone elses shoes", either liking the design and/or fits of those shoes, or not. In games where you're able to chose how to play your character, i often like to first play "intuitive", most of the time "goodish" and after i'm finished (or sometimes i already do it on the first run) create an opposite character, just to see how i feel playing it and what impact taking different dispositions actually has on the game. And i actually think it is interesting, that i had pretty different experiences with different games, sometimes liking the way the game environment reacts, or the "empowerment" which might come along with it, sometimes feeling good and sometimes bad that way, often depending on the game itself! Sometimes i love games who actually force me in the role of someone i am not in real life, sometimes i hate it, but in those cases it is mostly because of the "how", what i would call bad game design.
Now, i actually haven't played GTA5 yet, not even 4, or most of the titles from generation 3 (still liked 2 best, but by now it's probably just nostalgia), so i still don't know for sure how 5 is actually dealing with the issue.
Sooo, i'd say "opinions taken", but what is the actual issue here? Having different opinions about it, which i think too often is a bad starting point to have discussions about, most of the time leading to nothing, or the question how GTA5 is actually dealing with all the "horrible" stuff in it? Does it deliver believable characters? Is it glorifying, criticising, or neutral about it? What does it mean for us, that such a big, known title is made that way?

But, then, what the heck? Seeing the age gate i was expecting something like your video on violance, not reading a line out of a porn comic-magazine-whatever. Aghua... i don't even know what to say, this was friggin horrible and vulgar - and kind of arousing.
Thank god for you, Jim.

After Spec Ops the Line, nothing fazes me anymore. The torture scene in GTA 5? Didn't even know it was worth blinking at until I saw posts of people going "oh man that scene made me sick to my stomach." Really? You didn't even kill the guy afterwards, what's the big deal? Why is that worse then the dozens of cops you mowed down in just a few missions prior, or hell, just while wondering around in free roam. One would think the Rampages as Trevor would be more effective then waterboarding /one/ dude, but I guess I'm just one of those weird people who thinks murder is worse then anything else you can do to a person which no one else on the internet seems to agree with. Whatever. Y'all can headshot an entire army of dudes and not give a crap, but flinch when asked to break one dudes leg while he's tied to a chair. I dunno what that says about people, but like I said before, I played Spec Ops the Line. Desensitized, I think is the word.

"Greg 'the Demon King' Tito"... THis is why I love you, Jim

Well, this is an interesting one.

Can't say I entirely agree with villains always being inherently more interesting than heroes and anti-heroes. Sometimes having a character with inhuman motivations can seem interesting. Sometimes they can look like cartoon caricatures whose only purpose is to give the hero something to stick a sword in.

Take Deathwing from WoW for example. Yay, he blows up continents with the wag of a tail, so cool. His motivation? Give the world something to fight and the players something to loot... because he goes insane because C'thulhu did it. Even as a big bad Warcraft villain, that's a little trite. He starts to actually become a character after death when his motivations are explained by Wrathion. On the other hand, what I find interesting about the titans in SnK (Only a few episodes in) is that they're so enigmatic.

Of course, when actually PLAYING a villain in GTA5, Jim likes it because it intentionally makes him feel unsettled. I can definitely see the appeal in that. I can also see why many wouldn't find any sort of appeal. I'm personally on the fence with that one.

Out of topic, it's a good thing I fled at the sight of School Daze.

I would say I like playing as a Villain, but from Gregs review the protagonists just sounded lazily written.

I like it when a had guy and villian has just cause, even if it comes down to some mental disorder. What makes a bad guy even better is playing witness to their downfall, Capt Walker from Spec Ops and Walter White from Breaking Bad are two such great cases.
I felt the protagonist from Saints Row was cartoony, and I will lament that I found a lack in motive to be something I found lacking in the character. I eventually came to the conclusion that the character was driven by a psychological need to be top dog, in that the character wasn't trully content until they had control. Over time however the protagonist grew tired of their lacking influence, hence the need to rise from gang boss, to celebrity, to the president. Until their wouldn't be anybody who could oppose their influence.

But with that said I'm mostly not interested in GTAV because I've already played Saints Row. I don't care how technically profienct it is, just sounds sort of boring, especially in contrast to what can be in done in SR.

I'll leave it at; a faultless hero is as boring as the cartoonish villian. The best Villain is the kind that sees himself as the hero, but a dick just being a dick, eh.

Soak:
3,5/10? I see 3,5/5, which somewhat is a different thing, no? Whatever, i don't care too much about scores anyways.

I think that was the joke :P People don't usually give a Star rating out of 10, there's generally 5 tops.

I feel I miss out on a lot of story elements in games because I never feel anything for the protagonist whether they are building hospitals or eating baby's. Whether I do a good or bad run in fable, or infamous means much the same thing to me but I've yet to see any way to be more evil than simply killing somebody. It's like they have no imagination when it comes to being deliberately evil.

That reminds me. Why has nobody released a game where you play as a slasher in a horror movie?

Closest I've ever seen is Naughty Bear, and from the demo it's going for a generic serial killer vibe rather than a horror movie slasher vibe. Well that and the the game has you play a teddy bear viciously killing other teddy bears. The comedy value of that wears off though and I was just wishing these were actual people.

Well there's that and there's the old GTA games. The ones that actually let you have a chainsaw and a sword and blow people's limbs off, seriously Rockstar why did you take that away?

I also have a desire to play "you are the villain" games. In fact let's take this to it's extreme limits.

Let's do seriously horrible crimes like genocide and human trafficking and hell let's be a rapist (it's not nearly as bad as those last two but it's still very looked down on).

Fappy:
What can we possibly send him (that's legal) that tops that!? I don't even know.

lolicon.

Actually I'm not sure if that is legal. It damn well should be though.

Hmmm well there is guro but that would mean actually having to find some guro.

How about Faces of Death?

You know I've been fascinated by villains and I have a desire to play as one that also came from a video game.

Ever since I got to play as this man,

MrHide-Patten:
I would say I like playing as a Villain, but from Gregs review the protagonists just sounded lazily written.

I like it when a had guy and villian has just cause, even if it comes down to some mental disorder. What makes a bad guy even better is playing witness to their downfall, Capt Walker from Spec Ops and Walter White from Breaking Bad are two such great cases.
I felt the protagonist from Saints Row was cartoony, and I will lament that I found a lack in motive to be something I found lacking in the character. I eventually came to the conclusion that the character was driven by a psychological need to be top dog, in that the character wasn't trully content until they had control. Over time however the protagonist grew tired of their lacking influence, hence the need to rise from gang boss, to celebrity, to the president. Until their wouldn't be anybody who could oppose their influence.

But with that said I'm mostly not interested in GTAV because I've already played Saints Row. I don't care how technically profienct it is, just sounds sort of boring, especially in contrast to what can be in done in SR.

I'll leave it at; a faultless hero is as boring as the cartoonish villian. The best Villain is the kind that sees himself as the hero, but a dick just being a dick, eh.

Michael in GTA V literally says what you're wanting to hear to his son not long into the game. 'I get I've done bad things, but I always thought I was being the good guy' is what he says in a nutshell. So he's that kind of villain, but there's two other villains in GTA V that are completely different. Besides, this is GTA we're talking about... even the 'good guys' aren't good by any stretch of the imagination. GTA has never been about meeting good characters, and people are being awfully silly if they think that'll happen.

None of the MCs in the GTA series are good, but you can like how they're played out. That doesn't make them 'good', that just makes them likeable in your eyes. Or if not likeable, at least fun watching their chaos in action.

Daystar Clarion:
Huh, wonder why there was an age ga- *Jim proceeds to read furry porn.*

Welp.

That's enough internet for today.

I dry heaved, I mean I've been around the internet but DAMN that was just ...oh God I don't feel well.

xPixelatedx:

Orekoya:

That's kinda a problem because this is a published graphic novel for sale that someone sent him and comics that contain copyrighted characters don't tend to be published for sale because of legalities.

I was under the impression you could buy henti books of copyrighted characters. I've seen hundreds of them for everything pertaining to anime, video games, etc. When these things are posted online, they are usually labeled as 'scans' from their respective books as well, and they certainly look like they've been scanned from a book. That said, I don't know if the people making these should be making them, nor will I agree/disagree with the practice. Just saying they exist.

Yea, hentai. That's a whole other can of legal worms to get into.
The short version - In Japan it is sorta legal to do that or rather it is a legal grey area where it's not as explicitly illegal enough.

The long version - Lawsuits are ridiculously expensive and the degree of resemblance that needs to be proven is greater there than it is state-side. So unless they can prove it is a carbon copy, such as tracing or other art asset theft, then it'll get thrown out: wasting money and time thereby making it seem almost pointless to even pursue. Now add to it that their market is renown for being much more 'in the now' than ours so it's harder for the creators to show losses on completed works since it's unlikely to affect their sales, making another legal hurdle that the one filing the suit would have to hop.

Double Post

I've read that comic. A thoroughly unlikeable main character and a sad plot premise.

I don't have problems playing the villain or the bad guy. What I do have a problem with is playing unlikable uninteresting pricks, which is why I'm skipping GTA. Not all villains are equal, not all villains are even in their actions and motivations, and while GTA5 might be a good game, its protagonists are not, at least to me.

Fappy:
What can we possibly send him (that's legal) that tops that!? I don't even know.

Not sure if it's a rhetorical question, if not the following tags in hentai are usually way more hardcore than gay furry:

- abortion

- absorption

- alien

- all the way through

- amputee

- anorexic

- asphyxiation

- ass expansion

That is for the letter A, way to lazy to keep going.

Was that last paragraph really necessary, Jim?

I have no problem with the GTAV characters being evil, I like being evil, but they just seem like such douches. I want to be suave and sophisticated evil, not Jersey Shore jock evil.

Vale:
I love Niko to bits. Even though his name is as unsubtle as it gets. "Niko" sounds Eastern European, but is not an actual Serbian name.

Niko would be an acceptable shorthand for Nikola - a a popular serbian name.
You know - same as that very little known Serb, Nikola Tesla.

Vale:
It comes from "Nikovo", Russian (Niko is a Serbian, mind) for "Nobody".

Not entirely correct. "Noone" in Russian would be "nikto" (никто). "Nikovo" is Genitive from "nikto".

So, Jim, curious to know how you think this relates to the whole "No rape in videogames" debate? I mean, if you were going to make a truly reprehensible character, that seems like a mighty effective and limit-testing way to do it.

Tanakh:

Fappy:
What can we possibly send him (that's legal) that tops that!? I don't even know.

Not sure if it's a rhetorical question, if not the following tags in hentai are usually way more hardcore than gay furry:

- abortion

- absorption

- alien

- all the way through

- amputee

- anorexic

- asphyxiation

- ass expansion

That is for the letter A, way to lazy to keep going.

I'm thinking of sending him another A word that has nothing to do with hentai

Aristocrats.

ThreeName:
So, Jim, curious to know how you think this relates to the whole "No rape in videogames" debate? I mean, if you were going to make a truly reprehensible character, that seems like a mighty effective and limit-testing way to do it.

I don't think Jim is in favor of absolute limits like that.

I am more of a 'good guy' in most video games that I play. Lightside, Paragon, call it what you will, that's generally where my decisions land in games that I play. But when SWTOR came out, I did something a little different. I made a character to play by myself, one quite unlike any other. I wanted to see how the other side lived and made a sith sorcerer. And to be sure I'd get the full, evil experience, I chose to go completely dark side with all of my decisions, which led to me role playing the character as such. Before I knew it, I spent more time logged in as my sith than I ever did as my jedi.

It was freeing in a way that was very interesting. I don't normally enjoy villains and I enjoy villains that are really just super-bullies even less (which I fully admit being dark side in SWTOR can feel like at times). But committing to it and really just making as many widows as possible felt disturbingly fun. I still dislike 'half-hearted anti-heroes' like Kratos, but I can understand the appeal of playing a villain now much better than I would have a few years ago.

I still prefer to play good characters whenever possible, but I've lightened up and taken on the new perspective when I wanna take a break from being a nice guy.

TheMadDoctorsCat:
What really interests me is when a game, or another piece of media, portrays a character as "the good guy" even when they clearly aren't. Watch Jurassic Park 2, for example, where all of the "protagonists" blunder into the middle of an up-until-that-point successful military campaign, getting a massive amount of the (generally less unlikeable) military bods killed in the process. They're incompetent, they're annoying, they constantly f--k everything up and they show zero remorse for or recognition of the consequences of their own idiotic actions. And these are the guys we're supposed to be rooting for. Yay.

In so much as Ian Malcolm's group's actions were kind of on the wrong side of dumb, it wasn't a military campaign. It's a hunting party to get the Dinosaurs to the San Diego park, led by the new InGen executive. Pete Postlethwaite's character, Roland Tembo, is a game hunter who's pay for leading the hunt is the right to stalk down and kill a Tyrannosaurus Rex on his own. The man's a Grade-A Badass, in fact one of his scenes was deleted because it made him too sympathetic.

I like playing as a villain in games, as well as anti heroes.
But i want something out of them, but i need to be able to like them, or respect them, or failing that, or at the least they need to be interesting or amusing.
And from GTA V review, the reviewer seemed to not find any of that in the protagonists.

I don't automatically think worse of the villain if they put babies through a meat grinder, but they do need to have a sane and intelligent reason for doing so, or it needs to be done in a way that is amusing, motivations matter, and petty and pointless (or stupid) motives make me at least loose interest in the character (unless it is to see them get shit kicked out of them).

Playing a bad guy is interesting if the story and the character's development are good. Kayne and Lynch is a good example (even if the gameplay was horrible), Manhunt could be another one, this game was horrible from the beginning to the end (in one level, the player have to kill is whole family to survive).

IMO bad guys are always more interesting than the "main good guy (or girl)", playing one can be interesting but it's harder to write this kind of stuff if humor isn't the main theme.
A game were the bad guys are the main character isn't for everyone but a trend appeared since several years on TV show focusing on the bad guys (Dexter, Sons of Anarchy, Breaking Bad, Mad men and so on) and they are all synonymous with success, it was just a matter of time to see this coming in VG and it's not over (the selled number of GTV just proove that people are asking for this kind of game).

I hate it in video games when I'm supposedly a good guy and then I mow down hundreds and hundreds of soldiers without remorse. If I think about it too hard I'm thrown right out of the story so I try not think about it to much and I'm always more than happy to be a bad guy. Even playing a game as Batman I try not think about this whole "not killing" thing since he definitely killed a whole bunch of henchmen in the Arkham games. I enjoyed it much more playing as the Claude and Tommy in GTA 3 and Vice City than CJ because I could see the former being psychopaths but CJ seems so out of place.

I'll be honest my only issue with playing the villain is the premise of the game. GTA is seen heavily as a sandbox, a "do as you wish" style of game. In that respect it seems silly that it forces you to play as villainous characters. Skyrim was also a sandbox but never forced you to do well...anything really besides get passed the tutorial.

GTA however forces you play as some questionable characters and won't let you skip the cruel elements, such as the torture scene. Either focus more on the story and characters or be a true sandbox and let us at least have the option of not being a dick and I'll be happy with it.

What was that magazine he had what lol

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