Kill Your Darlings

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Irridium:

canadamus_prime:

Irridium:

That's what seems to be the case from what I've seen of the reaction to Game of Throne's red wedding or whatever it was.

Ok I don't watch and/or read Game of Thrones, but that seems incredibly ridiculous.

Yeah, it was. I don't read/watch it either, but people seemed to get pretty emotional. I wonder of the people who said it really did stop watching/reading.

I have no idea, but it's still pretty sad.

With GRRM we have Urobuchi at the side of Japan. Except even Urobuchi can at least give some sense of satisfaction to the heroes.

Yeah, this is pretty much half the reason why I've chosen not to touch any of the popular shows right now with a ten foot pole.

Death of a maincharacter or several can be good for a story, if its done well. In fact death in general can be a useful plot-device in itself for the story, for example anything with zombies in it, you know as a reader that the moment anybody dies, especially someone close to the protagonist, or it being the protagonist (its a case of "false protagonist"), that this story might just get nasty, it also serves the characters itself, i.e. they take the problem very seriously.

The problem with GRRM and his ideal of "anyone can die" approach to use Game of Thrones, though plenty other authors do this, is that he actually can not kill all of them. Well he can but the problem is he has written himself into a corner as to what he can do from now on. Think about the Red Wedding, just in general, why does it happen now? Why not later? or earlier? Because the dead characters have fulfilled their role in the story GRRM wrote, he basicly has no further use for them being alive.

Every character serves a function, to explain the story and the world to the audience, once that function is fulfilled, you can write them out, usually this is done simply by "dropping them", they just disappear without any real closure to them, which in turn is useful in case you actually might need them again later. Character who are killed off, for real, in detail, "on screen" so to speak, are dead, finished. Their plots are over and their death is the only closure you get. They fulfilled their role and are no longer required or in some cases, their living would actually hamper the story.

Hell in my own story, all characters are this, they are vehicles to the story being told. Except i only have one POV character and even that one is not exempt from being killed, although exempt from actually staying dead. The first arc (30 A4 Pages) deals solely with explaining the whole concept of how the POV character, i.e. the main character is "immortal" and the rules for it, as well as setting up the world and future plot points. Death is rather integral to the resolution of that particular plotpoint though. The rest of the "cast" is either dropped when their part is over or killed when their function is fulfilled.

I don't watch TV at all, so I have no idea what series this is referring to, but if a comic or game kills off half the cast, I usually stop at that point too, because I lose the will to give a shit about a cast where anyone could die at any time. That's probably why The Walking Dead game did nothing for me.

I didn't see any benefits in Red Wedding for the story. Deyeneris line gets more and more stupid, all the new characters introduced in Book IV are not interesting. I don't know where will it lead, but in the end of the saga, I'm afraid, I won't care.

Before reading an explanation under the picture I was pretty sure that this was a retro comic about Transformers G1 Movie.

Rastrelly:
I didn't see any benefits in Red Wedding for the story. Deyeneris line gets more and more stupid, all the new characters introduced in Book IV are not interesting. I don't know where will it lead, but in the end of the saga, I'm afraid, I won't care.

That's how you play the game of thrones: you win or you die.

kinda reminds me of the people who stopped watching Gurren Laggen cause Kamina died, >.> he kinda wasn't the main character ya know ....

Lunar Templar:
kinda reminds me of the people who stopped watching Gurren Laggen cause Kamina died, >.> he kinda wasn't the main character ya know ....

The Great JT:
That's how you play the game of thrones: you win or you die.

lucky_sharm:
I hate when people say that half of the cast was killed off when only two major characters were killed.

Yes it's by no means half. In the book another major character dies at about the same time, but I don't think this has happened on the TV show. Since a large proportion of Robb's army and bannermen are killed it does feel like more than two.

Fox12:
I'm not gonna lie, I don't see the attraction to Game of Thrones. I had to stop reading once I realized the story wasn't going anywhere and Martin basically admitted he just makes it up as he goes along. I don't know, it's alright, just not excellent.

When did he say this? Of all the epic books and tv series over the years, Martin's seems to be the one that is planned out the most. He's probably added a whole bunch of detail about the War of Five Kings that wasn't in his original outline, but I don't think he's changed anything major about the main character's story arcs (There was supposed to be 5 year gap which he ditched). If anything, for me, the main reason why Books 4 and 5 were weaker than the first three was because of his sticking to his outline even when it wasn't working well dramatically.

Yea, I got really despondent after Radar died too.

LaoJim:
[spoiler=I'll put most of my post in one big spoiler. This is replies to people which involve spoiling Books 4 and 5]

Fox12:
I'm not gonna lie, I don't see the attraction to Game of Thrones. I had to stop reading once I realized the story wasn't going anywhere and Martin basically admitted he just makes it up as he goes along. I don't know, it's alright, just not excellent.

When did he say this? Of all the epic books and tv series over the years, Martin's seems to be the one that is planned out the most. He's probably added a whole bunch of detail about the War of Five Kings that wasn't in his original outline, but I don't think he's changed anything major about the main character's story arcs (There was supposed to be 5 year gap which he ditched). If anything, for me, the main reason why Books 4 and 5 were weaker than the first three was because of his sticking to his outline even when it wasn't working well dramatically.

He's said this across multiple interviews. When he started writing, he said he had no idea where the story was going. He just wrote, and said he wanted to see where it was going.

On another occasion he said that there are two types of writers. The architects, who plan everything out before hand, and the people who figure it out as they go along. He then said he fell into the second camp. This seems pretty clear to me in the writing, where large sections of writing can pass with little to no plot advancement whatsoever. The aforementioned Brianne chapter are good examples.

Someone asked him in an interview whether he knew how the books were going to end. He said that even though he had a general idea of where he wanted the books to go, he had no idea how on earth he was going to get there. Compare this to J.K. Rowling, who plotted the entire story before hand, and spent seven years figuring out how she wanted to end the story before publishing her first book.

The evidence is in the books as well. It was supposed to be a trilogy, but the series grew and got too big for him, and now it's supposed to be atleast seven books. It takes him longer and longer to release books, and he can't make release goals, which tells me he's trying to figure out how he's actually going to bring the series to a satisfying conclusion. In all seriousness he should have finished two books ago. Tolkien wrote LotR, The Hobbit, thousands of years of history, all the appendices, and several languages in fewer pages than Martin has already written.

This all makes since when you realize it reads like a t.v. show... which is what Martin spent most of his career writing. Every book is like a season. This is why it adapts so well to t.v. Most television writers plan their shows out one season at a time, with few exception, and make the story up as they go along. Lost, The Sopranos, ect. This is what Martin is used to, which is why it carried over to his books.

He's not terrible, he's just not concise or good at planning out his work. There's a lot of filler and empty space. Fun empty space, but empty space none the less. His work is like McDonalds. It tastes good, but it's filled with empty calories.

Caramel Frappe:
Silly Erin, you are giving up to soon the series without giving it a chance to see how it turns out.

I mean, despite I haven't read the manga... so far in the Attack on Titan anime-

Dude your avatar is freaking awesome :P

OT: I think people who give up on series after events like the Red Wedding are petty and childish.

Fox12:

He's said this across multiple interviews. When he started writing, he said he had no idea where the story was going. He just wrote, and said he wanted to see where it was going.

I've read quite a few interviews from Martin and I've never had that feeling about him. He has said that he dreamed (or maybe day-dreamed) about a boy witnessing an execution and started to write from there. However before writing the first book he had a clear idea of what was going to happen. As he started to write, his story has grown and he realised he needed more books to tell the story properly, but there is no suggestion that he doesn't know exactly where the story is going to end up.

Its true that he is having problems delivering books on time. I think it is more to do with the fact that after the opening act, most stories have a more muted middle to set up another conclusion. He's found it difficult to make 4 and 5 interesting AND set up all the characters to where they need to be to tell 6 and 7 in the way he wants. Those books have too many characters (including too many new characters).

If you go back and read the books again it is amazing how much is foreshadowed in earlier books, suggesting that Martin knew exactly what he was doing.

One of the things I loved about re-reading the books is the tournament in the middle of book 1. On the first reading when Martin list a whole series of endless of the combatants. When you re-read it, you know who everyone is and their relative strengths and weeknesses and it is really fun to see who beats who. There's so much attention to detail and rich background that I don't believe Martin is just winging it.

Grey Carter:
Kill Your Darlings

Oh no! PLOT DEVELOPMENT!

Read Full Article

Erm, I think the problem people have with George R R Martin's books is that everyone even remotely likable dies, or has something bad happen to them (at least, from what I've seen/heard so far).

It invokes, well, this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy

I'm still watching Game Of Thrones when it returns, but I feel like I can't invest emotions in any of the characters incase they die. Or have bits hacked off them.

gyrobot:

Lunar Templar:
kinda reminds me of the people who stopped watching Gurren Laggen cause Kamina died, >.> he kinda wasn't the main character ya know ....

I was talking about Erin's reaction, not the books every ones been going back and forth about. Not read them, not going to, but from what I've heard this Red Wedding sound like little more then a cheap shock value stunt

Hit the nail on the head. Thats people all right!
'This show effected me emotionally, therefore its shit. I shall never watch it again.'

PunkRex:
Given that last week was about FREE! I thought she was talking about Attack on Titan for a second there...
image
I swear if Sasha gets it i'm gonna kick off!

Still, I don't get as mad as I used to when characters die... is that maturity kicking in or is life just slowly beating down?...

I gotta go cry for abit, excuse me...

AoT rarely kills of important characters. Longest a character who dies has been around was

everyone else who dies gets like 2 chapters (or 1 anime episode) before dying.

Still, there is gonna be 20 volumes of the manga, and there is currently 49 chapters, so there is still about 33 chapters left to kill Sasha off.

canadamus_prime:

Irridium:

canadamus_prime:

Ok I don't watch and/or read Game of Thrones, but that seems incredibly ridiculous.

Yeah, it was. I don't read/watch it either, but people seemed to get pretty emotional. I wonder of the people who said it really did stop watching/reading.

I have no idea, but it's still pretty sad.

I stopped watching after season 1 when one of the major characters died, not because I was sad but because his story was my favourite part of the show. I appreciate the idea of it, but since I've started watching again I've not found the new seasons nearly as engaging as the first, so with a few more Starks thrown on the pyre I can understand why a lot of people gave up.

LaoJim:

Fox12:

He's said this across multiple interviews. When he started writing, he said he had no idea where the story was going. He just wrote, and said he wanted to see where it was going.

I've read quite a few interviews from Martin and I've never had that feeling about him. He has said that he dreamed (or maybe day-dreamed) about a boy witnessing an execution and started to write from there. However before writing the first book he had a clear idea of what was going to happen. As he started to write, his story has grown and he realised he needed more books to tell the story properly, but there is no suggestion that he doesn't know exactly where the story is going to end up.

Its true that he is having problems delivering books on time. I think it is more to do with the fact that after the opening act, most stories have a more muted middle to set up another conclusion. He's found it difficult to make 4 and 5 interesting AND set up all the characters to where they need to be to tell 6 and 7 in the way he wants. Those books have too many characters (including too many new characters).

If you go back and read the books again it is amazing how much is foreshadowed in earlier books, suggesting that Martin knew exactly what he was doing.

One of the things I loved about re-reading the books is the tournament in the middle of book 1. On the first reading when Martin list a whole series of endless of the combatants. When you re-read it, you know who everyone is and their relative strengths and weeknesses and it is really fun to see who beats who. There's so much attention to detail and rich background that I don't believe Martin is just winging it.

I got the impression that he had a general ending in mind, but he's having trouble getting there. My primary concern is the amount of clutter in his works that could be trimmed down. I often feel like I read an entire novel, and yet very little happened. The exception would be the first one, which was actually quite good. But then... everyone jut felt horrible irrelevant. Arya is my favorite character, but she hasn't done much. I counted, and she was kidnapped no less than five times. It felt like a convoluted excuse to move her around the map. Brianne is also interesting, but like Arya, all she's done is travel from one end of the map to the other, and she hasn't really advanced the plot.

Martin does have his strengths though. He writes brilliant characters, even if he doesn't always do much with them, and he's quite consistent with his existing lore. I just feel like the whole plot could have been told in three or four large books if he had cut out all the fluff, and they would have been better for it.

Fox12:

I got the impression that he had a general ending in mind, but he's having trouble getting there. My primary concern is the amount of clutter in his works that could be trimmed down. I often feel like I read an entire novel, and yet very little happened. The exception would be the first one, which was actually quite good. But then... everyone jut felt horrible irrelevant. Arya is my favorite character, but she hasn't done much. I counted, and she was kidnapped no less than five times. It felt like a convoluted excuse to move her around the map. Brianne is also interesting, but like Arya, all she's done is travel from one end of the map to the other, and she hasn't really advanced the plot.

Martin does have his strengths though. He writes brilliant characters, even if he doesn't always do much with them, and he's quite consistent with his existing lore. I just feel like the whole plot could have been told in three or four large books if he had cut out all the fluff, and they would have been better for it.

Yeah, that's all fair enough. I watched the first two seasons of GoT then went and read the books and so Arya seemed to spend a huge amount of time "on the road". Brienne's story is fairly tight in book 3, but very unfocused in book 4. The problem for Arya is that she is used to set up the story for other characters in the book (Dondarrington and the Hound especially) without advancing her own development, which is a shame as she's a great character in her own right.

Ryan Hughes:
Well, to be fair, people act like George RR Martin invented many things. . .

Do not get me wrong, I do like the novels, as a whole, but they are largely inspired by Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Water Margin, two great classics of Chinese literature. In short, he is not as surprising and original as some people make him out to be.

It's still well written and fun to read. Things don't need to be absolutely original to be good.

Ah. Yes, everybody talks about this show. Should've guessed that was what it was a reference to. Either that or Game of Thrones, of course.

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