Jimquisition: Vertigo

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Cat of Doom:

What about shale from Dragon age: origins

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shale

She is a playable character, not attractive by any means (unless you have a thing for golems)and has her own unique agenda,is defiantly strong willed, and a unique combat style to the other companions.

Not a bad call at all, actually.

It's been a long time since I've posted on the Escapist, but I love the Jimquisition and it feels like Jim did not try hard enough searching for a modern female protagonist. The first one that comes to mind has already been referenced a number of times in this thread. Amaterasu is a great female protagonist. She is playable, capable (she's a god, after all), and is not unnecessarily dependent upon a man or unnecessarily pretty in the conventional sense. Some may count this example out, as Amaterasu is a wolf, so her being attractive isn't an option, via her character. Still, I see her as a viable answer to Jim's implied question of "Is there a non stereo-typed female protagonist in modern gaming?"

A second example comes from Dragon Age: Origins. While Jim probably wasn't looking at this game, because he ruled out any game where there is a player created character, there is a pre-written character that fits his requirements. Wynne is an older human woman, is not conventionally attractive and is not referred to as being attractive. In a world full of characters waiting to copulate with the Warden, Wynne always refuses any advances. Wynne is also capable in the battlefield and is a source of a lot of wisdom for the main character. She also isn't reliant upon any male character and is well respected in the Mage's circle. You could also attempt to rule her out, saying that she focuses on healing magic in combat, but I feel being a healer does not invalidate her other great traits.

There are other examples that cam be listed, but these are two that I was able to pull up off the top of my head.

l3o2828:
I was thinking, Does Izanami count?

~snip

She's not exactly...pretty, and she's a villain and all.

You don't get to play as her, though, and her human guise is still androgynously attractive. Pretty sure if she were playable and unattractive along with everything else, she could be considered.

After browsing through lists of characters I found one more recent than Vertigo ironically enough from another ridiculous fighting game: Sheeva from Mortal Kombat 3. While technically she is fighting basically a singlet the males of that race just wear speedos as combat attire so I think that's just how they dress. It is kinda sad though that the only women that aren't young and/or attractive are either animals or hideous monsters

nyysjan:

hentropy:
Recette from Recettear is a pretty damn good female character in my estimation, as well as the female protags from other Carpe Fulgar games. Not exactly mainstream, though, I suppose, even if Recettear has quite the reach now.

Hmmm, generically cute anime girl who seems to be a child (or very, very short, going by google image search), not sure if that counts.

The difference is that it's not a hot 20-something T&A idol. Japan is really different in that sense, but I don't personally see why more kids or underage characters can't be real characters in games, I think Psychonauts was very good partially because the protagonists were children. But at the same time, Recette is a driven and caring girl who is trying to make her way running a store, difficult not because she's a girl, but because she's a preteen/young teenager with no prior business experience. On the other hand you also play Tear in some ways, despite being a fairy is otherwise adult and responsible and not really a sex idol or really even terribly attractive.

So cute, yes, but the generic kind of "heroine" we get in most other games? Not exactly, but it's up to individual I suppose whether they "count" that or not. Personally I played an overweight female Asian gangbanger who eventually became President in Saints Row, and that was a whole lot of fun, all things considered.

uanime5:

88chaz88:

Monxeroth:
If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?

Can we all stop with the "If 'X' doesn't matter..." defense? It's completely ridiculous.

'X' does matter, else we wouldn't have so many examples of one subset of 'X' yet so few of the other. It clearly matters yet it damn well shouldn't, and the only way we're going to stop it from being important is to have more diversity.

And diversity matters.

Why should I stop pointing out the flaws in your argument?

Because of what I've just explained. Keep up.

MrBaskerville:
One could also look at a game like King of Fighters where the characters might not be repulsive, but there's a great variation in female character types. Actually you could look at several japanese titles and it would pleobably feature interesting female characters, they have gotten a bad rep but in the grand scheme of things, it really isn't that fair considering how often they get it right.

But if we are looking for villians it starts to get a bit more difficult, though i did notice that MGS 4 features female soldiers, which you only really notice because of their voices

Not really true.

I like the Frogs and all, but you can tell just by looking at them that they're female.

Crazy Zaul:
So after it was agreed last week that Lizzie from rampage is the only evil female protagonist, the next best answer is still a dinosaur.

Oh yeah.


Though she does get a tiny bit sexualized when she gets beat, and turns back into a human...Naked. Granted, it's not like you could make anything out because of the graphics, and that happens to all of the characters not just her.
So I think she could count.

<.< Is anyone else weirded out just a little that so far most of the examples have been giant female reptiles? And THE Aliens...

Daystar Clarion:

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

Considering that both Okami and MGS3 are some of my favorite games on their respective consoles (Wii and PS2) and I absolutely love them, only Ammy is a playable character and protagonist, although The Boss is an incredibly badass character in her own right, she's not playable.

So yes Jim, what about Ammy? :3

OT: Well, there are a few fighting game females that aren't "pretty" (as in, she's not defined by her cup size), but definitely badass, like King from KOF (she's completely covered from top to bottom) and Luca from Chrono Trigger (she's playable aqnd you can even make her your party leader later on)... and... hmmmm... some others... I think... >.>'

bafrali:
Huh. Your ideal woman is actually huge skank Jim. Don't think I haven't seen that victory pose. I will be damned if she wasn't turning her back just to show her lovely lady humps. Waving the tail if you will.

Well I was expecting Miss Pacman to appear then I realized she is just a distaff counter-part to her more popular male character and she doesn't really have motivations of her own and actually depicted with make up, high heel shoes and a boa in her concept arts.

Maybe Sarah Kerrigan in her new design but abominable high heels truly ruin that image...and inexplicably well preserved face and overall features that survived the mutation process.

A long way to go indeed...

I've heard rumors... that there IS no Ms. Pac-Man; that's the original Pac-Man IN DRAG!

But back to the video: Jim, you asked why women can't be ugly or evil in games if their protagonists. If they did, wouldn't other people complain really loudly and throw around accusations of misogyny and even worse sexism? Because that's where my brain automatically went. Or would this not be a problem when more women become game writers.

You wanted a non-sexy woman and you ended up with Vertigo? How could you have gone so wrong?

Ukomba:
Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Toadette from Mario Kart.
Birdo from Mario Kart.
Baby Daisy from Mario Kart.
Nana from Ice Climers / Smash Brothers.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Jack from Mass Effect 2.
Sue Sakamoto from Cave Story.
Gaige from Border Lands 2.
Hildegard von Krone From Soul Calibur IV
Freya from Final Fantasy 9.
Quina Quen From Final Fantasy9???

I don't know. Seems there's a lot that are at least possible. You could even make the case that Purna from Dead island fits the criteria.

Silent Protagonist:
I wasn't trying to disagree with Jim's point that there is a greater range of character traits used for male characters than female characters. I was criticizing his method of making a lengthy and specific list of criteria and then being angry and judgmental that there are so few female characters that meet it when in fact barely any characters regardless of gender meet his requirements. I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the way in which it was delivered.

Ahhhh, I get your point now. Yeah, I can think of a few off the top of my head, probably some more if I took some time to do a bit of research. I think he was just going for direct opposites for what we see in female characters specifically, but you still do have a fair point.

Jim, I actually feel sorry for you. It must be really awful to be a SJW and always seeing evil or bad in the world.

You blatantly discount Saints Row, Mass Effect, TES, Fallout 3/NV. All of which can have non-traditionally attractive, ugly, and or old females. They can act from a variety of impulses and run a spectrum of alignments (less so for Saints Row I guess).

You complain that women are too often portrayed as good. Can you imagine the uproar that would happen if a game's only PC was a heavy, old, evil woman. One who had no redeeming qualities, much like Cane and Lynch? The Tumblr servers would burst into flame from the load.

Females that act out of love are out? Great! Let's knock out all males who act out of love of a woman. Whoops, looks like a lot of them are gone.

Let's do the same with personal tragedy.

Attractiveness next.

Suddenly the male pool of characters has shrunk significantly as well.

deathjavu:
Also, the argument about catering to current demographics is dumb on many levels. I made a flippant joke earlier, but let me break it down further:

a) Catering just to the current demographics is a dipshit way of doing business on many levels.

-All businesses should be looking to expand their demographics to increase both profits and long term survivability.

-Creating games for the same demographic (at present, teenage and college age boys) leads to the creation of the same games over and over again, which results in repetitive, boring, and uninteresting games such as the millions of COD clones stanking up the market.

-Everyone competing for the same market leads to market oversaturation, resulting in humiliating multimillion dollar flops such as whatever Medal of Honor game EA has shit out most recently (I don't know and don't care).

You clearly have no idea how a business works.

1) It's not always possible to expand your demographics. For example if the only game you've got the equipment for is shooters you can't make RPGs.

Another problem is that many businesses have gone bankrupt because they tried to expand their demographics (requires a huge capital investment), failed, and the cost of this failure bankrupted them. Being a niche company is often much safer.

2) If your demographic wants one type of game you keep making this game as long as it makes money. The fact that you don't like this business model doesn't make it a bad model.

3) Most flops are due to companies overestimating how large the market is then spending too much on making a game, rather than making bad games. That's why you can get flops even with games that sell over 4 million copies and was praised by critics.

b) What comes first, the appeal to other demographics or the interest from said demographic?

-I bet you think that's a chicken-egg question, which would admittedly be cute, but actually similar histories in movies and books prove it's not. The appeal almost always comes first, and then lo and behold, the statistically likely audiences show up in droves. Look at Twilight! It succeeded solely because it aimed itself at an underserved book audience. Or XCOM/Civ5 for the strategy demographic, if you want to talk about something not shit. Business has proven time and time again that if you're aiming at an underserved market, all you have to do is exist, regardless of quality. From a business perspective, aiming where no one else has is almost always a winner.

Twilight targeted the teenage girl romance market, which is one of the most over-saturated book markets. Next you'll be telling me that the fantasy market was underserved because Harry Potter did so well.

Your belief that if you just make something for an "underserved" audience you'll be a success is nothing but wishful thinking. There are countless examples of games, TV shows, and movies that tried to appeal to the "underserved" but failed because the "underserved" didn't like it.

Sure are a lot of dudes on here acting like they know how women feel about things. Handy Tip: If you are not part of a group, you probably shouldn't assume you know how that group feels, unless someone in that group has explicitly told you how they feel.

Steve2911:
Yeah I too can not think of a single example. I was tempted to say Ellie from that bit where you play as her, but I suppose I'm only not thinking of her as attractive because she's too young for me to see her that way. She is the game's protagonist in my eyes though, but I can't honestly count her when she's only playable for an hour of it.

And discounting player made characters is important, because a fully rounded and crafted character as part of a linear narrative is dependant on things like gender, race, appearance and whether they go for Paragon or Renegade points. If the developers didn't create a character in a certain way (female, not conventionally attractive etc) then how can it possibly count as a progressive protagonist?

Still trying to think up more examples as I type. Maybe there's some fairly obscure indie games or Japanese stuff that I don't know of... But as far as Western AAA I'm drawing a thousand blanks.

I think Ellie is a good example, she's a protagonist playable character who is not the default playboy playmate type.
So this gives us 2 characters: Amaterassu and Ellie. Still a very sad state of affairs.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dixie Kong. She was playable in two Donkey Kong Country games and her ability to hover made her more useful than Diddy and Kiddy.

ConanThe3rd:
Man Searches for Hen's Teeth, Yells at cloud when Dinosaur is the best he's getting.

More at 11.

So you're saying it is by definition impossible for a female character to be a protagonist, evil AND unattractive? So a character with those traits would not be a woman?

AtheistConservative:
Jim, I actually feel sorry for you. It must be really awful to be a SJW and always seeing evil or bad in the world.

You blatantly discount Saints Row, Mass Effect, TES, Fallout 3/NV. All of which can have non-traditionally attractive, ugly, and or old females. They can act from a variety of impulses and run a spectrum of alignments (less so for Saints Row I guess).

The issue there is: CAN have. With player created characters it is not the videogame industry creating that character, it is the player. How many of these games include developer-created characters that fit the bill? We're talking about an issue with the industry here, not an issue with the players.

Lightknight:
As such, throwing bloody FPS titles at women may never get the response it does from men, no matter how capable and plain the female protagonist was made. Because God only knows that women strongly desire to play as some ugly chick as their avatar. Just like I desire to play as some fat slob with an asthma problem.[/sarcasmjoke]

Funny, but Scott Shelby was my favourite character in Heavy Rain, and yeah, (slight spoiler warning)

On another note, even if it maybe is understandable that developers make games with a male audience in mind because that is their biggest audience, I just cannot accept that this argument used in this context always implies that the only thing male gamers want are the same tropes used over and over (both male and female centered) or only hyperattractive women in their games. I think that this assumption is rather sexistic against men.

Lightknight:

deathjavu:
What comes first, the women who play games or the attempts to design games with them in mind? :P

Quick, you're a development studio making a game. The overwhelming majority of your potential client base is male. What gender do you cater to if either if you want to ensure that your studio gets picked up again for a different game or a sequel?

Quick, you're a publishing studio thinking about investing in a game. Do you invest in a game that caters to men or women if over 80% of your potential customer base is male?

Except that studies have shown that men are NOT in the "overwhelming majority", it's just a popular misconception that they are because they're generally more vocal about it.

RJ 17:

Silent Protagonist:
I wasn't trying to disagree with Jim's point that there is a greater range of character traits used for male characters than female characters. I was criticizing his method of making a lengthy and specific list of criteria and then being angry and judgmental that there are so few female characters that meet it when in fact barely any characters regardless of gender meet his requirements. I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the way in which it was delivered.

Ahhhh, I get your point now. Yeah, I can think of a few off the top of my head, probably some more if I took some time to do a bit of research. I think he was just going for direct opposites for what we see in female characters specifically, but you still do have a fair point.

Ukomba:

Ukomba:
Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Toadette from Mario Kart.
Birdo from Mario Kart.
Baby Daisy from Mario Kart.
Nana from Ice Climers / Smash Brothers.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Jack from Mass Effect 2.
Sue Sakamoto from Cave Story.
Gaige from Border Lands 2.
Hildegard von Krone From Soul Calibur IV
Freya from Final Fantasy 9.
Quina Quen From Final Fantasy9???

I don't know. Seems there's a lot that are at least possible. You could even make the case that Purna from Dead island fits the criteria.

Amazon and Jack are pratically naked the whole time.
Jack is future hell's angel biker girl.
Luca is the cute engineer.
Do you actually play with Shale? I've never played Dragon Age.
Quina Queen is a genderless entity
Freya is on a quest to find her lost love

I think from this list the only candidate is Amaterasu (Okami)

WhiteTigerShiro:

Lightknight:

deathjavu:
What comes first, the women who play games or the attempts to design games with them in mind? :P

Quick, you're a development studio making a game. The overwhelming majority of your potential client base is male. What gender do you cater to if either if you want to ensure that your studio gets picked up again for a different game or a sequel?

Quick, you're a publishing studio thinking about investing in a game. Do you invest in a game that caters to men or women if over 80% of your potential customer base is male?

Except that studies have shown that men are NOT in the "overwhelming majority", it's just a popular misconception that they are because they're generally more vocal about it.

You are hideously incorrect. He did specifically say "your potential client base is male" alluding to the fact that the AAA industry DOES have a significant majority of male consumers.

The latest "study" about there being a supposedly even split considered someone who plays Bejeweled for 30 minutes every fortnight a "gamer". Rendering the study entirely pointless and inapplicable to economic forecasting for companies.

But I "agree(?)" with Jim here. I want to see ugly, morally grey female protagonists... not because I want to see more females in games - I'm entirely neutral on that, I don't care what gender my PC is - but because I want to see more ugly, morally grey protagonists.

Okay, so the character can't be fanservicey or pretty, has to be powerful, can't do everything for a man or personal trauma...

Well, for one, there's Amaterasu, the star of Okami.

Then there's Lucca from Chrono Trigger. Who is more nerdy cute (and made in the 90s before that was fetish) and has no love interest, also invents time travel. Isn't technically the protagonist, but the protagonist is silent. And Jim picked a fighting game character, which can't have a star, so I can pick a playable JRPG character.

Freya from FFIX, who is a rat person, which is about an unattractive as they come. She does have a boyfriend, but she isn't doing everything for him. Also, Quina(?) who may or may not be female, and is definitely ugly as sin.

Oh, and Ms. Pac Man.

Of the top of my head: the Blackwell series fit Jim's arbitrary criteria without resorting to include non-human characters.

The Blackwell ladies are human and
1 the actual main protoganists in their games,
2 not sexy (one is conservatively dressed nerd with glasses and the other a chain-smoking woman in her late thirties),
3 motivated by something other than a man and
4 not in a survival game.

Pretty good AGs too, the first two games of the series and worth playing. Bonus!

Vertigo is made of photographs not polygons, therefore there's no emotion in there. She doesn't fit your pre-requisite list Jim.

franksands:

RJ 17:

Silent Protagonist:
I wasn't trying to disagree with Jim's point that there is a greater range of character traits used for male characters than female characters. I was criticizing his method of making a lengthy and specific list of criteria and then being angry and judgmental that there are so few female characters that meet it when in fact barely any characters regardless of gender meet his requirements. I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the way in which it was delivered.

Ahhhh, I get your point now. Yeah, I can think of a few off the top of my head, probably some more if I took some time to do a bit of research. I think he was just going for direct opposites for what we see in female characters specifically, but you still do have a fair point.

Ukomba:

Ukomba:
Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Toadette from Mario Kart.
Birdo from Mario Kart.
Baby Daisy from Mario Kart.
Nana from Ice Climers / Smash Brothers.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Jack from Mass Effect 2.
Sue Sakamoto from Cave Story.
Gaige from Border Lands 2.
Hildegard von Krone From Soul Calibur IV
Freya from Final Fantasy 9.
Quina Quen From Final Fantasy9???

I don't know. Seems there's a lot that are at least possible. You could even make the case that Purna from Dead island fits the criteria.

Amazon and Jack are pratically naked the whole time.
Jack is future hell's angel biker girl.
Luca is the cute engineer.
Do you actually play with Shale? I've never played Dragon Age.
Quina Queen is a genderless entity
Freya is on a quest to find her lost love

I think from this list the only candidate is Amaterasu (Okami)

Don't know why you quoted me in that, but it got my attention so I'll point out that Amaterasu is a good character. As in, not an "evil/morally questionable one". To be fair, Jim doesn't specifically mention that as one of the 3 requirements, but he does talk about it at the beginning of the episode and points out that Vertigo is one of the "villains" of Primal Rage.

JarinArenos:
Okay, so counting Amaterasu, we have... two. And Ammy is, at least, a gorgeous specimen of wolf goddess. The attractiveness isn't even the least bit sexualized though, so she can have the point. Any others?

Um...

Having not played the game, I have no idea about the qualifications, but... Fat Princess?

AFAIK, you don't play with Fat Princess, you just carry her around.

From what I've seen, we have 3: Vertigo, Ammy and Ellie (from the Last of Us)

I don't see how anything could be gained by making a female character unattractive, or a male character for that matter. Grizzled and muscular is alright, Marcus isn't a half bad looking guy, Baird is actually quite good looking. I thought Lara Croft was sufficiently grizzled. How is being attractive a problem? It's a matter of realism too, women are so attractive that it you would have to go out of your way to design an unattractive one.

I'm going to be really frank here, I really wouldn't pick up a game if the protagonist (i.e. the character I'm playing through the whole game) was a woman who was ugly as fuck as intended by the developers. What would even be the point of that? Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL for female protagnists, but why make them "ugly" purely for the sake of variety? What would that achieve, simply saying "look, our female protagnist looks like shit! VARIETY!" Yeah, well done, but it doesn't make me want to buy that game whatsoever.

As a male gamer I'm almost always creating female characters whenever I'm given the option, and then I try to make them look as beautiful as possible (with a few defining traits, there are many kinds of beautiful). That's just how I play.

I daresay I'm not the only one who feels this way, seeing the trends of millions of consumers.

Should the variety of female protagonists/antagonists be restricted? Of course not, go nuts. I'm simply describing my own opinion, and I'm just one guy.

Also a female villain is extremely rare for a good reason, it just doesn't click too well most of the time. Anyone watched Dredd 2012? The antoganist was a female, I would argue that the movie writers did the best they could to create a convincing female villain who ugly as fuck (intentionally!). This was the result:

bobleponge:
Sure are a lot of dudes on here acting like they know how women feel about things. Handy Tip: If you are not part of a group, you probably shouldn't assume you know how that group feels, unless someone in that group has explicitly told you how they feel.

85% of the Escapist is males, so you're going to have a ton of males trying to discuss things from a female perspective.
If we were to try and ONLY let females post in these threads, said threads would be ghost towns.

RJ 17:
Don't know why you quoted me in that, but it got my attention so I'll point out that Amaterasu is a good character. As in, not an "evil/morally questionable one". To be fair, Jim doesn't specifically mention that as one of the 3 requirements, but he does talk about it at the beginning of the episode and points out that Vertigo is one of the "villains" of Primal Rage.

Though I love Jack from ME2, I don't she qualifies. Actually none of the female characters of ME2 would serve, since all of them are excessively sexualized.

Daystar Clarion:

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

Amaterasu.
MOTHER TO EVERTHING AND THE SUN ITSELF.

The grand divine of all gods and goddesses...
Is a wolf.

And thats why I like Okami.

On topic:

Gimme a game where you play as a grannie who's decided that she's done living for everythin and goes to reap judgement on villans. Men and Women alone.

franksands:

RJ 17:

Silent Protagonist:
I wasn't trying to disagree with Jim's point that there is a greater range of character traits used for male characters than female characters. I was criticizing his method of making a lengthy and specific list of criteria and then being angry and judgmental that there are so few female characters that meet it when in fact barely any characters regardless of gender meet his requirements. I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the way in which it was delivered.

Ahhhh, I get your point now. Yeah, I can think of a few off the top of my head, probably some more if I took some time to do a bit of research. I think he was just going for direct opposites for what we see in female characters specifically, but you still do have a fair point.

Ukomba:

Ukomba:
Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Toadette from Mario Kart.
Birdo from Mario Kart.
Baby Daisy from Mario Kart.
Nana from Ice Climers / Smash Brothers.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Jack from Mass Effect 2.
Sue Sakamoto from Cave Story.
Gaige from Border Lands 2.
Hildegard von Krone From Soul Calibur IV
Freya from Final Fantasy 9.
Quina Quen From Final Fantasy9???

I don't know. Seems there's a lot that are at least possible. You could even make the case that Purna from Dead island fits the criteria.

Amazon and Jack are pratically naked the whole time.
Jack is future hell's angel biker girl.
Luca is the cute engineer.
Do you actually play with Shale? I've never played Dragon Age.
Quina Queen is a genderless entity
Freya is on a quest to find her lost love

I think from this list the only candidate is Amaterasu (Okami)

The amount of cloths the character wears is irrelevant. Jack is covered in tatoo's, with a shaved head, and a terrible personality, she is not conventionally attractive. All her lack of clothing doesn't improved her attractiveness, quite the opposite. The same is true for the Amazon. She's far more muscled than the standard conception of beauty, emphasized by the lack of covering cloths.

Luca is cute, but nerdy isn't traditional attractive, which is the point of the video. If John Marston isn't conventionally attractive (I know women who would disagree with that assessment) neither is Luca.

Shale is a party member, and she has possibly the most interesting back story of any of the characters. She's one of my favorites to use too.

Quina Quen's gender is unknown, and put in there for a joke. e_e

Freya isn't "doing something for a man". At one point she is looking for her lost love, but later she's Defending Her Homeland, then goes for Revenge on Brahne, and finally to save the world. How a character starts out their journey doesn't make that their one driving force the entire time.

You can think what you want I'm sure.

I don't think I can take much more of this stuff being thrown around before my skull collapses in on itself and snuffs out my brain.

Pat Hulse:
Entertainment industries are exclusively about appeasement. That's pretty much the entire definition of entertainment. It can be used to enrich lives, sure, but it is first and foremost used to be fun and distracting and give us something to do with our idle time. The better question is who we're appeasing, why we're appeasing them, and how that appeasement would negatively impact the appeasement of others.

We're appeasing those who buy our products to encourage them to buy more of our products. Anyone who doesn't buy our products doesn't matter.

My argument is simply that unless you can think of a counter-argument, changing a male protagonist in a game whose gender identity is not critical to their character (of which there are many) into a female protagonist whose gender identity is not critical to their character without changing much else would be trivially difficult, have a positive impact on communities who ask for such representation, and wouldn't have a significant negative impact on those who aren't asking for it. In my mind, if doing something is easy and would have a positive effect that outweighs the negative effect by a significant margin, it ought to be a no-brainer. We shouldn't FORCE people to do this, obviously, but there's nothing wrong with attempting to convince people to make this decision voluntarily if they find the arguments compelling and if they want to make work that's accessible to a wider audience.

The games sell better with a male protagonist, so giving them a female protagonist is effectively reducing the number of sales for no real reason.

You've also failed to realise that gender is critical for most characters. It's less believable that a woman would save another woman she's never met or fight hordes of minions in order to defeat their leader even when they're no threat to her.

Also you're a hypocrite, as there's little difference between trying to "convince" people to do something and forcing them to do something. If they don't want to do it then you should respect their decision, rather than complain about it.

Sonya from mortal Kombat would like to have a word with you. Also, a nice chunk of the DOTA and LoL women may have something to say.

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