Jimquisition: Vertigo

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Tombsite:
Source? Where did you see that "people" do not want more diversity? I've seen quite a few forum threads and opinion pieces stating otherwise.

Where your source that people want games with ugly women? Also how many people would buy a game they wouldn't normally buy simply because it was more diverse.

Steve2911:
Yeah I too can not think of a single example. I was tempted to say Ellie from that bit where you play as her, but I suppose I'm only not thinking of her as attractive because she's too young for me to see her that way. She is the game's protagonist in my eyes though, but I can't honestly count her when she's only playable for an hour of it.

Ellie's as cute as a bug. She'll be smoking hot in her 20s.

There are so many ways they could have made an awkward-looking girl of her age, and she doesn't even have any scars from her dangerous life. I thought that was one of Jim's best points - the contrast between the grizzled, scarred war veteran males, and the women who somehow emerge without a scratch and often don't even need armour.

Though Ellie does have a great personality and is an interestingly-developed character. But agreed on the fact that you only play her for a small part of the game, you mostly see her through Joel's eyes, and much of her role is to help Joel get over his emotional issues, to "fix" the wounded man.

clinicalPsychologist:

Lightknight:
As such, throwing bloody FPS titles at women may never get the response it does from men, no matter how capable and plain the female protagonist was made. Because God only knows that women strongly desire to play as some ugly chick as their avatar. Just like I desire to play as some fat slob with an asthma problem.[/sarcasmjoke]

Funny, but Scott Shelby was my favourite character in Heavy Rain, and yeah, (slight spoiler warning)

On another note, even if it maybe is understandable that developers make games with a male audience in mind because that is their biggest audience, I just cannot accept that this argument used in this context always implies that the only thing male gamers want are the same tropes used over and over (both male and female centered) or only hyperattractive women in their games. I think that this assumption is rather sexistic against men.

Want to put that to the test?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mightyno9/mighty-no-9/posts/611851

Those are possible designs for the Mighty No. 9 heroine. They are letting supporters vote on the design they use. I guarantee you will see very few votes for A or B (the more nerdy looking character). F or H will almost certainly win. I love to see the results based on gender of the contributor. I'll bet the percentages show women voting for the same things the men are.

Ukomba:

The amount of cloths the character wears is irrelevant. Jack is covered in tatoo's, with a shaved head, and a terrible personality, she is not conventionally attractive. All her lack of clothing doesn't improved her attractiveness, quite the opposite. The same is true for the Amazon. She's far more muscled than the standard conception of beauty, emphasized by the lack of covering cloths.

Luca is cute, but nerdy isn't traditional attractive, which is the point of the video. If John Marston isn't conventionally attractive (I know women who would disagree with that assessment) neither is Luca.

Shale is a party member, and she has possibly the most interesting back story of any of the characters. She's one of my favorites to use too.

Quina Quen's gender is unknown, and put in there for a joke. e_e

Freya isn't "doing something for a man". At one point she is looking for her lost love, but later she's Defending Her Homeland, then goes for Revenge on Brahne, and finally to save the world. How a character starts out their journey doesn't make that their one driving force the entire time.

You can think what you want I'm sure.

I think the amount of clothes a character has is definitely relevant. Why there weren't any half-naked male characters? Though the Amazon and Jack are unconventional, they are definitely still attractive. Your 20-30 years old with a body that could go on any playboy or men's magazine.
I thought this one through and you're right, Lucca deserves a position as strong non-attractive character

So, the list is growing(from the games i've played): Amaterasu, Ellie, Lucca. Shale looks very interesting

On a side note. I fucking love Primal Rage. Great game, we need more great dinosaur games.

Years of experience playing tabletop role-playing games has led me to the firm conclusion that very few people, male or female, want play games where their characters are considered physically unpleasant in appearance, or even outright repulsive. Even when the physical appearance of their character has little to no bearing on what their character actually gets up to during the game the overwhelming majority of people will make the deliberate choice to play a character of perfectly average physical appearance. This is as evident in the video game industry as it is on the table-top. Characters such as Kratos or Marcus Fenix are not guys who're going to win the title of 'Most Eligible Bachelor Of The Year', but they're definitely not physically ugly by any stretch of the imagination. Even Jim's laughable example of a female dinosaur is still a fairly typical average example of what you'd expect a dinosaur to look like given the graphical limitations at the time of the game's release. If Jim is going to arbitrarily exclude physically-fit women with unmarked faces from contention in his little game of musical chairs , of course all he's going to be left with a long forgotten female dinosaur from the early nineties that nobody still gives a shit about. Apply the same test to male characters and all you'd be left with a proportionately larger pool of cultural detritus.

It's actually fascinating how few examples you find.

The problem is really how to interpret the "conventional beauty" thing. Beauty is such a subjective thing, You can stretch that to anything you like.
Are there weight limit, and if yes, how high and low do you set them? What about age? How do you count scars, or missing limbs? How about tomboys, masculine or androgynous females? What if a character is sexy, but you never see it?
A female character doesn't need to be ugly or a lizard to be interesting, either, it just forces the writers to come up with more character traits or motivations than "having tits".

Paradoxrifts:
Years of experience playing tabletop role-playing games has led me to the firm conclusion that very few people, male or female, want play games where their characters are considered physically unpleasant in appearance, or even outright repulsive. Even when the physical appearance of their character has little to no bearing on what their character actually gets up to during the game the overwhelming majority of people will make the deliberate choice to play a character of perfectly average physical appearance. This is as evident in the video game industry as it is on the table-top. Characters such as Kratos or Marcus Fenix are not guys who're going to win the title of 'Most Eligible Bachelor Of The Year', but they're definitely not physically ugly by any stretch of the imagination. Even Jim's laughable example of a female dinosaur is still a fairly typical average example of what you'd expect a dinosaur to look like given the graphical limitations at the time of the game's release. If Jim is going to arbitrarily exclude physically-fit women with unmarked faces from contention in his little game of musical chairs , of course all he's going to be left with a long forgotten female dinosaur from the early nineties that nobody still gives a shit about. Apply the same test to male characters and all you'd be left with a proportionately larger pool of cultural detritus.

+1
Jim's ugliness criterium rather arbitrary to begin with, but I also maintain that he just didn't look hard enough.

Um.... Jim? Have you just completely ignored...

Yep, still surprised you completely missed this individual Jim. She breaks every mold about female protagonists and is a modern hero. But not surprised since I actually am having trouble finding an image of her.

I would argue that the problem is that men are 9 times out of 10 idiots, utterly incapable of recognizing a woman as average looking - every female is attractive unless they're physically repulsive in some way.

...Then again, even the women I'm told are 'smoking hot' just register as 'meh, she's okay' for me, so maybe there's some perspective I'm lacking.

Depulcator:
Sonya from mortal Kombat would like to have a word with you. Also, a nice chunk of the DOTA and LoL women may have something to say.

Have you ever SEEN Sonya? I am amazed police regulations let her get away with that much cleavage.

True, Death Prophet isn't traditionally attractive... though she IS dressed primarily in rags...

Not G. Ivingname:

Peacock from skull girls.

Fits perfectly. Hooray for murderous cartoons. :D

Double from skull girls.

This may or may not count, depending on what Jim meant by "doing it for a man." Could easily be a deconstruction of this motivation, since she really, REALLY hates being mind @#$^ed into doing what Brain Drain wants.

You just described Pain Wheel.

Double seeks only to find a 'suitable' candidate for the Skull Heart, and by suitable I mean some one who is perfectly fine with killing every one, to which Marie is to busy trying to wipe out the mob to do.

Monxeroth:
If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if theyre created by the developer and not the player?

People are having fun arguing over the 'sexy/not sexy' part of your question so I thought I'd talk about the MMO part. The reason he excludes the player created characters from this list is because he's using this to critique the gaming industry writers. A lot of writers are actually pretty good at creating strong "blank canvas" characters. The problem rises when the writers expect a particular gender. They can write decent strong male characters, they can write strong blank characters that could just as easily be a female, but the very second they actually decide that the character HAS TO BE female the writing style changes. She has to falling for a man, she has to have a tortured past, she has to be brutally beaten, tortured, raped, or all three to "build character."

The Saints Row guys aren't the best example (because they do let us have any spectrum female want) but it still fits; they didn't write a game with a female character in mind. Any time my female character in SR3 blew up a bank or made out with a chick (woo diversity!) it wasn't because they had specifically written a strong woman. More so, all the activities I did actually felt like they were designed explicitly for dudes, but at the last moment I gutted one out and replaced it with a chick. I had inadvertently created the most kickass LGBT character, but it was ME who had decided that, not the [insert game dev] guys. They laid a surprisingly good framework for it, but the intention was not purely "let's make a competent female character."

My favorite female character of the last gen was surprisingly Fang from FFXIII, but it turns out the only reason she is so BAMF and caring for Vanille-the-whiney-useless-ditzball is because she was originally written as a man, and Vanille's love interest. It took a massive character team years to write these two heavily interconnected characters, but the only reason one is so whiney while the other isn't is because at the very last minute they had an epiphany, "Wait a minute, what if we had a character that was strong and a family caretaker that WASN'T a guy?" The team themselves have stated that they did this solely because Fang and Vanille as a hetero couple simply weren't interesting.

TL; DR
The cheat-iest way to make a good female character is just to not care that they are female. The real way that will take a long time for people to learn is just to recognize that females can do whatever they want and people will actually enjoy it.

franksands:

Ukomba:

The amount of cloths the character wears is irrelevant. Jack is covered in tatoo's, with a shaved head, and a terrible personality, she is not conventionally attractive. All her lack of clothing doesn't improved her attractiveness, quite the opposite. The same is true for the Amazon. She's far more muscled than the standard conception of beauty, emphasized by the lack of covering cloths.

Luca is cute, but nerdy isn't traditional attractive, which is the point of the video. If John Marston isn't conventionally attractive (I know women who would disagree with that assessment) neither is Luca.

Shale is a party member, and she has possibly the most interesting back story of any of the characters. She's one of my favorites to use too.

Quina Quen's gender is unknown, and put in there for a joke. e_e

Freya isn't "doing something for a man". At one point she is looking for her lost love, but later she's Defending Her Homeland, then goes for Revenge on Brahne, and finally to save the world. How a character starts out their journey doesn't make that their one driving force the entire time.

You can think what you want I'm sure.

I think the amount of clothes a character has is definitely relevant. Why there weren't any half-naked male characters? Though the Amazon and Jack are unconventional, they are definitely still attractive. Your 20-30 years old with a body that could go on any playboy or men's magazine.
I thought this one through and you're right, Lucca deserves a position as strong non-attractive character

So, the list is growing(from the games i've played): Amaterasu, Ellie, Lucca. Shale looks very interesting

The dwarf is just as unclothed as the Amazon.

I'm sure people can find what ever they want attractive. There are some guys who are into amputees, so they'd find Gaige from Border Lands 2 all kinds of hot.

The challenge was to find unconventional female characters. If the female is bald, or over muscled, covered in scars or tattoos, that puts them outside the convention of perfect skin, perfect hair, and the classic hourglass figure. When I got the option, I put Jack into much more concealing cloths because I thought she looked better. I'd cover the Amazon up more if I could.

Charli:
'Women have been brain washed' isn't a fair statement at all, it's more like 'Women have acknowledged that the path set before them has been laden with obstacles that are nearly impossible for them to overcome unless they conform.' We're not STUPID. We know what's happening, and alot of us are rather fed up with it but lack the power and voice to penetrate the anti sound walls of men and women completely complacent with this system because it's what they're used to and comfortable with.

Then learn programming, make an indie game, and publish it on Steam. Paper's Please became popular even though the graphics are rudimentary and it's about being a border crossing guard. You could even just make a simply flash game and upload it somewhere if you don't want to charge people. If you're willing to put in the effort you'll find that the obstacles are far lower than you think. I made a mod for TWS2 that added 83 regions and 86 factions using 3D Max and the Official tools even though I didn't know how to use either programmes and there weren't even any guides for the latter (I did write some guide so that others could benefit from my experiences).

If you don't want to make a game then write a book, like Stephenie Meyer or J K Rowling, and publish it on Kindle.

We'd like the ratio of catering to be maybe moved over to 1:9 instead of 0.1/9.9. Just a little bit, enough to have maybe some wacky indie gamers finally make like a Kung Fu Grandma or something. Or a thicker looking girl, pushing her way through a horror game un-ironically.

Kung Fu Grandma could only work as a comedy game (old people and sport tend not to go together). A fat girl in a horror game, which are usually characterised by enemies you have to run away from because you have no weapons, doesn't really work. Though a nerdy girl in a horror game would work better.

Rastrelly:
Supply reacts to a fucking demand, not vice versa!

Not always. If something is in great supply, and particularly at low cost, people may use that excessively and for less-than ideal purposes, even if they want something better for the job. Or in some cases, people might not even be aware of what alternatives are available, that they might prefer if they were given the option.

Markets and the interaction between supply and demand are much more complex than you make it out to be.

Well, if there's a market for playing as a shady, unattractive middle aged woman who've turned to anarchist beliefs because of a fascination with Nietzsche's philosophy, such product will surely come about. I've yet to see a commercial industry turn down making something that consumers would love to throw money at.

However, maybe the actual desire for such a thing is in fact exceedingly uncommon, and the theoretical discussion mostly the result of a vocal minority out to push its moralistic agenda upon the gaming industry. Though it is of course none of its business what other customers enjoy, and receive proportionately to the willingness to actually pay for it.

Metalix Knightmare:
Just wanted to add this, Anita would hate this revelation a bit more than you Jim. She hates seeing women used as villian characters.

Nah, she just asks that female villains not have their entire personality and look be 'is a sexpot with hints of BDSM'.

Of course, people interpreting her saying that as saying women shouldn't be villains is not a surprise... people like to deliberately misinterpret her words and say she said things she didn't.

88chaz88:

uanime5:

88chaz88:

Can we all stop with the "If 'X' doesn't matter..." defense? It's completely ridiculous.

'X' does matter, else we wouldn't have so many examples of one subset of 'X' yet so few of the other. It clearly matters yet it damn well shouldn't, and the only way we're going to stop it from being important is to have more diversity.

And diversity matters.

Why should I stop pointing out the flaws in your argument?

Because of what I've just explained. Keep up.

You didn't explain why diversity was important, you just complained about people poking holes in your arguments.

Oh my gosh. Enough with the gender stuff already.

Imperator_DK:
Well, if there's a market for playing as a shady, unattractive middle aged woman who've turned to anarchist beliefs because of a fascination with Nietzsche's philosophy, such product will surely come about. I've yet to see a commercial industry turn down making something that consumers would love to throw money at.

However, maybe the actual desire for such a thing is in fact exceedingly uncommon, and the theoretical discussion mostly the result of a vocal minority out to push its moralistic agenda upon the gaming industry. Though it is of course none of its business what other customers enjoy, and receive proportionately to the willingness to actually pay for it.

Hit it right on the head. The lack of a market means that it won't change. I am happy with the way things are now, and so are most people who buy games, I assume, or they wouldn't be buying games.

The market won't change because of a series youtube videos with terrible arguments, and the newest game to get people all riled up about gender just sold a bazillion copies, so it's clear to me that this topic will continue to go nowhere.

I mean, it's enough. I am actually interested in the topic and I stopped the video when I realized what it was.

I was looking at League and they have a lot of strong female characters... except a lot of them have some odd sexual fetish skin (or are just conventionally... ugh).

Riven - Tomboy in broken armor... playboy bunny
Vayne - Batman... with some Valentine's day stripper getup
Caitlyn - Professional steampunk sheriff... cop stripper outfit
Sivir - Rich mercenary with a keen eye for business... that forget to wear armor on anything except the bikini area

But there are some that may qualify

Lissandra - You don't see much of her but she's pretty much been taken over by the corrupting influence of the watchers and is a cult leader.
Diana - Functional armor without high-heels and disfigured by whatever she made a pact with to survive
Anivia - Bird, endlessly reborn as an elemental demigod protecting the frozen wastes that allied for the greater good with queen boobwindow
Lulu - Yordle (aka gnome) witch in a funny hat that falls halfway between Squirrel Girl and Deadpool
Poppy - A tiny little ball of murder

Well, the industry can go fuck itself for many reasons but this isn't one of them.
Partly.
While it is quite off putting that most ladies have smooth skin while the males have scars from their battles.
As for the looks in general, i do like healthy looking ladies. We have quite a bit of action going on in our games and when the characters have to jump around avoiding bullets or magic they will have to be as healthy and well trained as they can get.
So the ladies that i play should be healthy. They should be thin enough to be agile and in my opinion they should have smaller breasts attached to them. You can't be a future space military operative when you get punched in the face by your own breasts all the time.

The lack of scaring gets on my nerves. Hat off to bioware for having ugly glowing scars on femshep in me2, at least for a while.
Gimme some big jagged badass scars on a lady already.
Or don't. Most of the stuff the industry is putting out isn't worth my money anyway.

WhiteTigerShiro:

Lightknight:

deathjavu:
What comes first, the women who play games or the attempts to design games with them in mind? :P

Quick, you're a development studio making a game. The overwhelming majority of your potential client base is male. What gender do you cater to if either if you want to ensure that your studio gets picked up again for a different game or a sequel?

Quick, you're a publishing studio thinking about investing in a game. Do you invest in a game that caters to men or women if over 80% of your potential customer base is male?

Except that studies have shown that men are NOT in the "overwhelming majority", it's just a popular misconception that they are because they're generally more vocal about it.

Care to provide any studies to back up your claim. Make sure they're studies on games you purchase, rather than free games such as Farmville.

Don Dorscha:

Mcoffey:

Daystar Clarion:

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though. :)

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies ( something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.

Do you know what a female power fantasy looks like? Here's a hint: it probably doesn't involve being burly, grizzled, or scar-seamed; whereas many male power fantasies do. Do you really think that the only time women dress in revealing clothing or wear makeup to make themselves more attractive is so that they can please men? That's bullshit. Ask any woman why she wears sexy clothes, and you will hear "because I like how I look" or something similar. As such, that means that in general, women like to look sexy, and hence when they are playing idealized versions of themselves they want to look MORE sexy. If the only playable female character in a game was a Kane-and-Lynch-style ugliness, or a Marcus Phoenix burly and butch, then even the female gamers wouldn't want to play as them. As such, it makes sense for those characters not to be made. Diversity is good blah-blah-blah that's all fine and dandy, but in the end if you make a game with a character that nobody wants to play as so nobody buys your game, that diversity just ran your studio into the ground, because even the audience you are pandering to is uninterested in your product.

The only real differences that I can see between an objectifying sexualization and sexualization to create a female power-fantasy is the sense of agency the character has. If the female is a means to move the male-driven plot forward, then yes she is being objectified. If she is attractive and uses that to promote her own ends and agenda, then it is a power-fantasy and is the males playing the game choose to objectify her in their own minds, then that is their problem and their ignorance and there is literally nothing that you or anyone in the game industry can do about it.

This is the sad truth of any one of these "diversity in games characters" arguments. Even the people arguing for diversity wouldn't buy the game that deviates from what they feel is normal and comfortable. Does that mean that alternate sexualities and minorites are going to be excluded? Probably. Is that sad? Certainly. However, in the end even if games were made to include them, they would only fail miserably because the very people who are arguing for them to be made wouldn't buy them.

Do you know what a female power fantasy looks like? Here's a hint: It's not wearing a metal bikini and g-string while shaking their tits and ass for the camera. Despite what you may think, there's a big difference between what men think is sexy and what women think is sexy.

It's called the Male Gaze. It's when everything in a product is designed with the male perspective in mind, especially the female characters. So Ivy, Morrigan, even Alyx Vance were designed to appeal to men. So the sexy female characters in games and movies aren't typical designed with what women consider sexy, but what men consider sexy.

And sometimes, yes just like men, women don't want to play an idealized version of themselves. Sometimes they want to be a character. Sometimes, that character can be black, or gay, or yes, even overweight! Shocking, I know.

I think you're making a lot of huge leaps about kinds of characters women, and people in general, might find appealing.

uanime5:

Pat Hulse:
Entertainment industries are exclusively about appeasement. That's pretty much the entire definition of entertainment. It can be used to enrich lives, sure, but it is first and foremost used to be fun and distracting and give us something to do with our idle time. The better question is who we're appeasing, why we're appeasing them, and how that appeasement would negatively impact the appeasement of others.

We're appeasing those who buy our products to encourage them to buy more of our products. Anyone who doesn't buy our products doesn't matter.

My argument is simply that unless you can think of a counter-argument, changing a male protagonist in a game whose gender identity is not critical to their character (of which there are many) into a female protagonist whose gender identity is not critical to their character without changing much else would be trivially difficult, have a positive impact on communities who ask for such representation, and wouldn't have a significant negative impact on those who aren't asking for it. In my mind, if doing something is easy and would have a positive effect that outweighs the negative effect by a significant margin, it ought to be a no-brainer. We shouldn't FORCE people to do this, obviously, but there's nothing wrong with attempting to convince people to make this decision voluntarily if they find the arguments compelling and if they want to make work that's accessible to a wider audience.

The games sell better with a male protagonist, so giving them a female protagonist is effectively reducing the number of sales for no real reason.

You've also failed to realise that gender is critical for most characters. It's less believable that a woman would save another woman she's never met or fight hordes of minions in order to defeat their leader even when they're no threat to her.

Also you're a hypocrite, as there's little difference between trying to "convince" people to do something and forcing them to do something. If they don't want to do it then you should respect their decision, rather than complain about it.

It is commonly-accepted "conventional wisdom" that games with female protagonists don't sell, or at least they don't sell as well as they would with male protagonists. It is also commonly-accepted "conventional wisdom" that action films with female protagonists don't sell. This was often justified by citing films such as "Elektra", "Catwoman", or "The Brave One", all ignoring the fact that these films were all terrible. Then "Hunger Games" came out, a genre action film starring a female protagonist that is not overtly sexualized, and it broke box office records.

Similarly, I'm sure people arguing that female protagonists don't sell would bring up "Beyond Good and Evil", despite the fact that Ubisoft (who hadn't yet become particularly prominent) was focusing most of its marketing efforts on their "Prince of Persia" title, which had both name recognition and a unique and compelling gameplay mechanic.

They may also bring up "Remember Me", which got mixed-to-negative reviews, and "Mirror's Edge", which generally got negative reviews and was very experimental with the first-person platforming. Meanwhile, the new "Tomb Raider" had the best sales in the franchise since the 90's perhaps because, I dunno, it was a good game? It might not have gotten reviews as high as say "Uncharted", but for a series that had been critically panned for years to pull off a turnaround like it did is not particularly common.

The fact of the matter is, because of this "conventional wisdom", there are very few recent cases that actually support it. No one makes female protagonists because female protagonists don't sell, and on the rare occasion that one surfaces and the game doesn't sell well, it is attributed to the fact that there is a female protagonist. It's confirmation bias, pure and simple. Plenty of games with male protagonists fail, but because there are also games with male protagonists that succeed, no one assumes that's the reason games with male protagonists fail. However, because there are so few games with female protagonists and so few of those games are any good, it is difficult to accurately gauge what kind of impact female characters have on video game sales.

Your statement that women are less inclined to be brave or heroic than men would make me laugh if I weren't afraid you were being serious. I'm just going to err on the side of "you were talking out of your ass" and not dignify it with a response.

Trying to make an argument for something is not the same as forcing anybody to adopt a particular creative vision. More often than not, it's less a question of whether or not someone "wants" to make a character a man or if they are simply making them a man because that's considered the "default". By making the argument for more female characters, it helps creators ask the question of why they make a character male and whether or not they've even considered making the character female. I'd argue that a lot of them haven't, either because it just never occurred to them (people are inclined to make characters by drawing from characters they are already familiar with, which are predominantly male) or because they buy into the "conventional wisdom" that "male is default" and making a character a woman is tantamount to "taking a risk" or "making a statement".

More to the point, if a developer WANTS to have a female protagonist but executives are shooting them down due to the "conventional wisdom", being able to cite a large number of people demanding that kind of representation in games is probably a very helpful thing to have. If people who want better representation don't ask for it, people who want to include it in their games will never be able to convince the marketing department that there's an audience for it.

I'm not about restricting the creativity of people who want to make male characters. I'm just asking that they think about it for half a second if they haven't already, and also making it known that if someone wants to make that sort of a character, there's an audience for that.

uanime5:

Tombsite:
Source? Where did you see that "people" do not want more diversity? I've seen quite a few forum threads and opinion pieces stating otherwise.

Where your source that people want games with ugly women? Also how many people would buy a game they wouldn't normally buy simply because it was more diverse.

Uh don't make this so easy.

First of all you did not say ugly (and this is actually just about non-attractive women) but diverse.
And as to my source, well let's just go with quite a few of Jim's videos, Extra credits and Anita Sarkeesian (Plus all the people supporting them in the comment section).

Should indicate that quite a few people would like more diversity.

Now how about your sources? I've showed you mine :p

uanime5:

Mcoffey:
Just because it's a problem that isn't exclusive to games doesn't mean it isn't a problem games have. Jim's show focuses on the gaming side of the problem.

It's not that men don't care about looks. Looks matter less on a male character to a male when they're still portrayed as heroic or badass. I imagine women will likely feel similarly for female characters. It's kind of hard to measure for women though because most, if not all female heroes are beautiful women, designed around appealing to men (More so in video games). I don't think women are so shallow though that they wouldn't play as a 60 year old if the material was compelling enough.

Try reading a book or comic written by a woman for women. Their female characters aren't portrayed as heroic or badass because these types of female characters don't appeal to women; they only appeal to men. Even in harry Potter the girls, such as Hermione, were depicted as intelligent not heroic. It was the boys such as Harry Potter who were heroic.

Harry Potter wasn't written for women, it was written for children, primarily young boys. Just because a woman wrote the books, doesn't mean they're for women. Though I haven't read them myself, the Hunger Games protagonist, Katness Eberdeen, is often portrayed very heroically, is she not?

To say that women don't find heroic characters appealing is a little absurd, don't you think? To think that the most appealing role for a woman is a (intelligent!) supporting role to a man is kind of ludicrous.

Daystar Clarion:

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

The Boss may not have the prettiest face in MGS3, but it's still a somewhat attractive face. She also has a fairly nice body and of course gets her tits out at one point in the game. Standard attractive stereotype right there. And of course she isn't the playable character.

I would assume Ammy was purposely excluded due to the point about having a unique personality and motivation, both of which Ammy does not have. Ammy has no personality and no motivation other than "have to save the world because... just because". She's about as developed as Mario, that is to say, very little if at all.

Chessrook44:
Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".

Frankly I think you need to consider all of the criteria Jim presented in the video and not just the first one.

Andy Shandy:
How about Chell, from Portal? At least in the first one, she was just trying to survive GladOS. And I wouldn't call her particularly attractive in the game.

Once again someone has missed the point about attractive. First of all, it's not about what you personally find attractive, it's about whether or not she was designed to be "generically" attractive. Chell is a young girl with a nice curvy body, thus she counts under the attractive stereotype and is disqualified. Then she's disqualified again for having no personality.

I mean come on people, watch the video. Watch it, watch it, and watch it again if you have to. Pay attention to the rules, all of the rules, presented before you throw out random characters. Sheesh!

franksands:

RJ 17:

Silent Protagonist:
I wasn't trying to disagree with Jim's point that there is a greater range of character traits used for male characters than female characters. I was criticizing his method of making a lengthy and specific list of criteria and then being angry and judgmental that there are so few female characters that meet it when in fact barely any characters regardless of gender meet his requirements. I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the way in which it was delivered.

Ahhhh, I get your point now. Yeah, I can think of a few off the top of my head, probably some more if I took some time to do a bit of research. I think he was just going for direct opposites for what we see in female characters specifically, but you still do have a fair point.

Ukomba:

Ukomba:
Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Toadette from Mario Kart.
Birdo from Mario Kart.
Baby Daisy from Mario Kart.
Nana from Ice Climers / Smash Brothers.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Jack from Mass Effect 2.
Sue Sakamoto from Cave Story.
Gaige from Border Lands 2.
Hildegard von Krone From Soul Calibur IV
Freya from Final Fantasy 9.
Quina Quen From Final Fantasy9???

I don't know. Seems there's a lot that are at least possible. You could even make the case that Purna from Dead island fits the criteria.

Amazon and Jack are pratically naked the whole time.
Jack is future hell's angel biker girl.
Luca is the cute engineer.
Do you actually play with Shale? I've never played Dragon Age.
Quina Queen is a genderless entity
Freya is on a quest to find her lost love

I think from this list the only candidate is Amaterasu (Okami)

Shale becomes a party member if you do a quest and you can take direct control of her during combat. She is basically a walking tank as all golems are and can absolutely murder just about anything the game throws at her. Once I get her she's in my party about 90% of the time.

Depulcator:
Sonya from mortal Kombat would like to have a word with you. Also, a nice chunk of the DOTA and LoL women may have something to say.

You're answer for Jim is Sonya?
Sonya? From Mortal Kombat?

As for DOTA and LOL, aren't the characters in those designed by the players, and not the developers?

DVS BSTrD:
After Other M, I bet there's a decent audience for a game where you get to play as Mother Brain.

I've wanted to play as her since Captain N.

Monxeroth:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

The major difference and the reason this comparison fails is that how a controller looks actually impacts how it plays.

Weresquirrel:
Of Darkspore's 4 female characters, at least 3 of them fall under the same blanket as Vertigo. I'd argue the full four, but Andromeda is fairly feminine looking, and as near as I can tell from her back story is a bit of a goody goody.

http://darksporegame.wikia.com/wiki/Jinx

http://darksporegame.wikia.com/wiki/Seraph-XS

http://darksporegame.wikia.com/wiki/Arakna

I think the problem here is that for Jim to list it, he'd have to have played Darkspore. The odds on that are about a billion to one against. :p

Metalix Knightmare:
Just wanted to add this, Anita would hate this revelation a bit more than you Jim. She hates seeing women used as villian characters.

Well, no. she hates the tropes associated with it. There's a difference. A pretty large one. On that folks should be capable of muddling through just by reading/watching/listening to the things she's said on the matter.

but then, I'm still at a loss as to why it even matters what she does think.

SonOfVoorhees:
Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

Except you have older women, women of colour, women who aren't "traditionally attractive" in advertisements. I mean, perhaps you can add a couple more examples, but if you want to pretend advertising is an equivalence, you're just wrong. Not only that, but why is that only an issue for women? Shouldn't there be parity on the male side, too, if this is just a general thing, not a gaming one?

uanime5:

You didn't explain why diversity was important, you just complained about people poking holes in your arguments.

No, I complained at people failing to poke holes at a non-existent argument.

Also, why is diversity important? I'll let several hundred CoD clones answer that.

mjc0961:
would assume Ammy was purposely excluded due to the point about having a unique personality and motivation, both of which Ammy does not have. Ammy has no personality and no motivation other than "have to save the world because... just because". She's about as developed as Mario, that is to say, very little if at all.

Ammy has oodles of personality.

You just have to pay attention.

Depulcator:
Sonya from mortal Kombat would like to have a word with you. Also, a nice chunk of the DOTA and LoL women may have something to say.

I'd like to know what you think "traditionally attractive" means.

DataSnake:
What about Claire from Thomas Was Alone? She's a big blue square, hardly "conventionally attractive".

That kind of fits almost perfectly with Jim's point - you have to look for things like lizards, rats, aliens, and geometric objects to find "female" characters that are outside the norm. If you look at more humanoid characters, the numbers go way down. I'm sure there are people out there who get aroused by quadrilaterals, but it's the exception that proves the rule.

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