Zero Punctuation: Beyond: Two Souls

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bobleponge:

I like how we're just making stuff up about Sarkeesian now.

"Look, AS is entitled to her opinion that all buildings over 5 stories should be painted bright red, I just don't think that it would be financially feasible. Not to mention it would be a bit of an eyesore."

I would never just "make stuff up" about her or anyone for that matter. It would be as ridiculous as the claims that she personally harrassed 4chan and Reddit to provoke the hatred she initially received.

abort_user:

VanQ:
The thing that struck me about this game is it's almost exactly the game that Sarkeesian asked for. Less like a game and more like a movie. And what gameplay there is, make it easy as fuck. It even has a female protagonist. Dunno if I was the only one that noticed this but I expect to hear her gushing about it any day now.

that is not what Sarkeesian asked for. have you even seen her videos?! she also never said only good games have female protagonists. and quite frankly i imagine she would have a problem with using rape as a cheap way to make us feel sympathy for the protagonist (and rightfully so).

Apparently you're going to tell me I haven't even watched her videos, when I've followed them very closely. Look into her comments on Mirror's Edge, and how she'd have loved to have enjoyed it if it hadn't been so difficult and how she wishes games were more like a TV show or movie.

undeadsuitor:

Has Sarkessian ever talked about gameplay mechanics? Better stories maybe, but "better stories" isn't "all story no gameplay". If Sarkessian said everything that angry guys said she said, she would have a ton more videos.

She has, in particular she spoke about how they're too difficult for her to enjoy. She even implied that was the case for other women at one point, if I remember correctly.

-

My statement was something I noticed about a bunch of things she's said over all of her videos from before and after the kickstarter thing. I'm not even attempting t insult her, you guys assume I am. It's just something I noticed, that it's a game that I assume she would enjoy because it has many of the qualities she has asked for in a game over the time she's been making videos.

Let's calm down shall we. I'm not here to hijack the thread and derail it, it was an off hand comment. Let's save it for another time and place.

I was still hopeful there was going to be a scene in Beyond Two Souls like Heavy Rain had.

You all know the one.

It involved disinfectant, a chunk of wood, a heated steel rod, one shot of whiskey and a lovely variety of bladed objects.

rhodo:

Psychobabble:
Someone in Hollywood needs to give Cage a job writing and directing straight to video movies so he'll stop mucking up the gaming sphere.

To all game makers out there, if your game idea is 50% or more little films instead of game play, it ISN'T a game. Do everyone a favor and get the fuck out of the industry.

Or you could, you know, just don't buy the game and stop telling others what they should or shouldn't consider a videogame.

Because hey, one videogame like this every three years is totally clogging the market, isn't it? So you should complain. It's not like with first person shooters, who are so rare!

Or you could, you know, just stop telling people how they can and can't feel about the game.

Because hey, people having a different opinion about a game than you is totally ruining your experience isn't it? So you should complain about it. It's not like you can just enjoy it yourself and stop crusading against everyone who dared not enjoyed B:TS.

DVS BSTrD:
I'm starting to wonder if David Beige has ever actually talked to a real woman before.

This review is actually a lot like trying to play through any of David Beige's games: Soul crushing.

Cage

David Cage

While not a total shamble, I do agree with Yahtzee's criticism... it's more a game than a film, since it's not only it's pretty uninteractive, but it hardly makes you feel like you're changing a bloody thing (despite the fact that some sections can end differently). I heard the argument that you're supposed to create your own version as Jodie, but doesn't that contradict the marketing (and what the developers and Sony have been saying, before the game was released?).

The plot is like a kid being in a candy store, with some extremely rich parents who'll give him anything he want, so the kid goes "I want that, I want this!" etc. It's really jarring for the game to go from drama to science fiction, to military espionage, to goverment conspiracy and doomsday.

I also heard an argument, that the unlinear story telling is thanks to Jodie (if you finished the game, you might know what I'm talking about), but that doesn't fly with me. It does make the story intersting, but it's also cheating, because without it, the story wouldn't really work and it would have had a horrible pacing

JenSeven:
I can thankfully say that I have never played any of David Cage's games.
I looked at them and read about them for a bit and they all just seem ... bad ... in a weird way.
Or maybe just weird ... in a bad way.
I can't decide which it is...

Fahrenheit was OK, up to a point. It's going to be one of the best games you've ever played it you stop playing halfway into it.

I think David Cage is a good writer. Perhaps not a brilliant writer, but a good writer nonetheless. I don't see what makes his writing worse than so many other video games. I cared a lot about the characters in Heavy Rain, especially because your choices had a profound impact on which direction the story took. It all adds up. If anything, the biggest problem with Beyond: Two Souls seems to be that it's just more of the same.

Nico4:
I also heard an argument, that the unlinear story telling is thanks to Jodie (if you finished the game, you might know what I'm talking about), but that doesn't fly with me. It does make the story intersting, but it's also cheating, because without it, the story wouldn't really work and it would have had a horrible pacing

Interesting. Did you feel the same about Memento and Pulp Fiction? If you have seen them, of course.

Of course the story wouldn't work had it been told consecutively. It was built this way. Just like not many stories told straight from A to Z would not work if the chapters got re-shuffled.

Not targeting you specifically, but I really wish people would stop stating opinions as facts. The game is not broken, the story never contradicts itself. I have played it 4 times from start to finish and replayed some chapters even more (even though Cage said it's exactly what one shouldn't do) and I never found any disrepancies in the plot and character developement.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but what I liked most about the game is how relatable Jodie was. Remember that we always see her at the most important points of her life. It's perfectly understandable that she'd be emotional. And noone is cool as a fucking cucumber every second of every day, despite what Hollywood, Naughty Dog and their likes would like you to believe. Every now and then people say silly and cringeworthy stuff. You call it awkward, I call it as close to reality as I've ever seen in a game.

As for her kissing all the pretty boys - there were only two. As rhodo said before me, shock and fucking gasp at a female seeking some comfort in her so far kinda shitty life.

Hold on for a second!
Are you telling me there are people that actually expected gameplay to be there?

I really was hoping by this point.... David Cage would impress us with a game. How wrong I was.

If Yahtzee says "Maybe David Cage is getting ready to move in with the bums if he keeps making this crap." then you KNOW the game is bad, at least in his opinion. But a lot of people have been saying similar things, and it's possible that the game is even worse then Heavy Rain or Indigo Prophecy. I've seen both games, so hearing that comparison is frightening overall.

I'll just have to see the game for myself to believe it. Just, seriously disappointed by this David Cage.

If you're interested in the idea of games about ghosts moving furniture, why not try Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective for the DS?

Dear Benjamin Sebastian Godzilla Yahtzee Crowshaw,
I don't know if you read this but I REALLY want to see a Zero Punctuation of "Day One, Gary's Incident".
Not because its good but because its bad. Its TERRIBLE. I'd like to see if it can get into the top 5 worst games this year besides Ride to Hell, Dark and Aliens: CM.

You've been playing Beyond? Beyond Good & Evil... 2???!
I think facial emotes are valid for criticism. After all, you did criticize Mass Effect, TES and Fallout for their character emotes. Maybe 10 years ago, we barely had characters opening their mouths but 9 years ago, we had Half-Life 2 that had perfectly done facial and body language. Is the industry still not catching up to Valve?

You know, games like this actually do a good service in reinforcing how wrong psychologists are about human "free will" and the agency with which we appear to control our bodies. Is human behavior really like David Cage presents it? A disembodied agent surveying the scene and acting independently according to its wishes? Or is it possible that in real life events play themselves according to external and internal circumstances - without a "controller"?

Buddhists might have a strong case, considering how disfunctional, awkward and impossible it is to have one person (us, or the "soul") inside another (Jodie, or the "body"), as Beyond: Two Souls haves us believe real life is lived.

David Cage thinks he's making some new unexplored genre of games when really all he's doing is making a western AAA budget version of Japanese visual novels. And I can name a few visual novels that have way better stories in them than anything Cage made (at least in my opinion).

T-Shirt Turtle:
David Cage thinks he's making some new unexplored genre of games when really all he's doing is making a western AAA budget version of Japanese visual novels. And I can name a few visual novels that have way better stories in them than anything Cage made (at least in my opinion).

Most VNs have significantly more choice than these games do, but it depends.

Wow, I actually thought this game was called "Beyond Two Souls" until I watched this video. The whole thing sounds terrible so I was already giving it a miss anyway. Doesn't even sound like a game at all, more like a boring movie you have to keep kicking to keep it playing.

FallenMessiah88:
I think David Cage is a good writer. Perhaps not a brilliant writer, but a good writer nonetheless. I don't see what makes his writing worse than so many other video games. I cared a lot about the characters in Heavy Rain, especially because your choices had a profound impact on which direction the story took. It all adds up. If anything, the biggest problem with Beyond: Two Souls seems to be that it's just more of the same.

I haven't played Heavy Rain, but Fahrenheit was awful. Or rather, it started out a promising noirish tale and then became a Matrix-esque tale involving a Mayan prophecy, a secret hobo network, angel attacks and the end of the world. Not to mention, one of the three main characters is suddenly and inexplicably dropped out of the picture 3/4 into the game, just because. Lots of good building, pay-off sucks.

OuendanCyrus:
Even though I didn't enjoy Heavy Rain too much, I definitely prefer that over Beyond. I agree with Yahtzee with every criticism he has with the game, and more.

Funny how everyone just calls Jodie "Ellen Page" now, they just can't be arsed. =p
See what you've done, David Cage?

(Still think Omikron: The Nomad Soul is Quantic Dream's best game)

It's definitely the only one with actual gameplay on it.

haha, I guess Beyond will forever be remembered as "that game with Ellen Page on it."

inidu:

DVS BSTrD:
I'm starting to wonder if David Beige has ever actually talked to a real woman before.

This review is actually a lot like trying to play through any of David Beige's games: Soul crushing.

Cage

David Cage

Buddy, I think that was intentional.

Unless your post was acknowledging the joke. (Now I'm confused, I wonder why that sarcasm pink idea never took off)

Well, David Cage has improved my day. He released this shite game, causing Yahtzee to review this shite game, causing me to remember that I haven't listened to Bullet with Butterfly Wings for 10 years, causing me to Youtube it, causing me happiness. Thanx 4 the emotions, Mr. Cage!

rhodo:
Looks like nobody plays videogames for emotions anymore. Just for the shooting.

Is Beyond: Two Souls disappointing in its gameplay? Oh yes, VERY disappointing.

Is Beyond: Two Souls satisfying in its story and emotions it can convey? Oh yes, VERY much so.

People play stuff like Japanese visual novels all the time, and what we have here is - a much, much, muuuch higher budget visual novel, with a more serious plot.

I absolutely loved Heavy Rain because it had excellent characters and atmosphere. I didn't even care the gameplay was so very simple. I like Beyond: Two Souls a lot, but it does feel less effective in its narration than Heavy rain was.

Hey, people loved Dragon's Lair, and still do, since they keep re-releasing it. And Dragon's Lair gameplay sucks. But it's a game with a very high quality and an excellent artistic value and.... gameplay or not, it's very entertaining.

Heck, people play mmorpg and those things have a much worse gameplay than David Cage's games, and they don't even have a compelling story or excellent graphics attached to it.

In short: I understand the shortcomings of David Cage's videogames, and I realize they're not even quite videogames. But I still prefer to play Beyond: Two Souls than yet another generic shooter.

I'm with you mate, as much as I enjoy ArmA, Star Trek Online, GTAV etc there are times when I want a story driven game and not have to worry about quick reflexes or thinking a lot. I'm suprised yahtzee didn't like it since he loves Silent Hill 2 and that also puts story over gameplay. Oh well each to their own.

When the plot in Indigo Prophecy went coocoo bananas, I was like "oh, that is so cute, whatever that is". Now I can't shake the feeling Quantic Dreams can't write a plot without coocoos and bananas to save their life.

Good video. That final joke had me ROFLing.

rhodo:
Well, this, I think, it's a good way to put it.

It's a good interactive story. It's like a movie that lasts ten times the amount of a normal movie, plus it has you interact with it to change the ending. I like it, especially since movies nowadays are so soulless that you need to turn out to videogames like this to enjoy a new inventive story that isn't a remake, a reboot or a sequel.

Yes, if you come here to expect challenging gameplay, go play Demon's Souls. But does this make Beyond inferior? No, because it offers what it's set to offer: a good interactive story.

Seems to me certain reviewers are too close minded to understand that, and criticize the game only on account of the limited gameplay it offers. It's like criticizing a book because you can't listen music with it.
Then again, those same reviewers who love gameplay so much are those who will high-score a TellTale game or even a mmorpg (which are the real scum of gameplay).

I'm going to assume you haven't played a Telltale game. Both David Cage and Telltale make similar games in terms of the genre, however, Telltale games are just sooo much better. Allow me to explain.

In terms of gameplay, they are very similar. They both are mostly quick time events, limited exploration, and giving you mostly illusions of choice. I say illusion because most of them don't change much as the story always goes to the same place. While both offer immediate small consequences, Telltale games also have longer term consequences, often coming back in later scenes. In David Cage games, the only long term consequences you get might be a slightly different ending.

The characters, which should be one of the main focus of the game, are really shallow in David Cage's, and barely have any development. You can sum up all the characters in B:TS in 3 words..or less. Telltale do a very good job at creating complex characters with real emotions, often threading the line of morality. No one is purely good or purely evil, because that's boring and cliché as hell.

Now both of these developers focus on the story, as it's the heart of this genre. I admit David Cage is pretty good at creating emotions, that's his strength. However, emotions alone don't make a good story. His games are FILLED with plot holes. There's just so many in every scene it's baffling at times if you stop and think about it for two seconds. Also his 'plot twists' are extremely predictable. I believe I saw every single one of them coming in B:TS. However, Telltale games have just as much (or more) emotions in them, but the rest of the story isn't sacrificed for it. Now I know some people will be happy to ride the emotional train and not care about the rest, and that's fine, but others, like myself, get really pulled out of a story if the plot is predictable, doesn't make sense, and feels like a bunch of scenes stitched together.

If you did enjoy the game, I'm honestly happy for you. I wouldn't personally say it's a bad game, there was some stuff I found enjoyable, but there's also so many things that irked me that it sapped my overall enjoyment. And if you haven't yet, try out The Walking Dead game or The Wolf Among Us, it does everything a David Cage game does, except better.

"Will cry for food"
I had orange juice in my mouth
Now I have an orange flavored keyboard
THANK YOU VERY MUCH YAHTZEE!!!

FallenMessiah88:
I think David Cage is a good writer. Perhaps not a brilliant writer, but a good writer nonetheless. I don't see what makes his writing worse than so many other video games. I cared a lot about the characters in Heavy Rain, especially because your choices had a profound impact on which direction the story took. It all adds up. If anything, the biggest problem with Beyond: Two Souls seems to be that it's just more of the same.

I agree with that.

Also, complaining about Cage's writing? Come on, tell me a recent videogame that had a REALLY good plot.

Itsthefuzz:

rhodo:

Psychobabble:
Someone in Hollywood needs to give Cage a job writing and directing straight to video movies so he'll stop mucking up the gaming sphere.

To all game makers out there, if your game idea is 50% or more little films instead of game play, it ISN'T a game. Do everyone a favor and get the fuck out of the industry.

Or you could, you know, just don't buy the game and stop telling others what they should or shouldn't consider a videogame.

Because hey, one videogame like this every three years is totally clogging the market, isn't it? So you should complain. It's not like with first person shooters, who are so rare!

Or you could, you know, just stop telling people how they can and can't feel about the game.

Because hey, people having a different opinion about a game than you is totally ruining your experience isn't it? So you should complain about it. It's not like you can just enjoy it yourself and stop crusading against everyone who dared not enjoyed B:TS.

Looks to me like he didn't simply express his dislike for the game; he actively called out people to stop making games like that because he doesn't like them. :)

And hey, if I like something, I don't suppose there's anything wrong in defending it? Or should all people who like something shut up, and let the haters tell each other how much they hate it?

Adam Jensen:
I'm so glad Yahtzee ripped David Cage a new asshole with this review. David Cage makes unique games, sure. But unique doesn't mean good. He's a talentless man who couldn't make it in the movie industry.

I wouldn't exactly call them unique.
image
David Cage might be surreal, but he's very predictable.

If the pic isn't showing: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/TWD-game-cover.jpg

mechalynx:

Nico4:
I also heard an argument, that the unlinear story telling is thanks to Jodie (if you finished the game, you might know what I'm talking about), but that doesn't fly with me. It does make the story intersting, but it's also cheating, because without it, the story wouldn't really work and it would have had a horrible pacing

Interesting. Did you feel the same about Memento and Pulp Fiction? If you have seen them, of course.

Of course the story wouldn't work had it been told consecutively. It was built this way. Just like not many stories told straight from A to Z would not work if the chapters got re-shuffled.

Not targeting you specifically, but I really wish people would stop stating opinions as facts. The game is not broken, the story never contradicts itself. I have played it 4 times from start to finish and replayed some chapters even more (even though Cage said it's exactly what one shouldn't do) and I never found any disrepancies in the plot and character developement.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but what I liked most about the game is how relatable Jodie was. Remember that we always see her at the most important points of her life. It's perfectly understandable that she'd be emotional. And noone is cool as a fucking cucumber every second of every day, despite what Hollywood, Naughty Dog and their likes would like you to believe. Every now and then people say silly and cringeworthy stuff. You call it awkward, I call it as close to reality as I've ever seen in a game.

As for her kissing all the pretty boys - there were only two. As rhodo said before me, shock and fucking gasp at a female seeking some comfort in her so far kinda shitty life.

Yea I've seen them, and maybe with the exception of Memento (which served the film's story and especially since the film makes it clear from the beginning), I feel that Pulp Fiction (to put an example)'s small stories could work well enough without the nonlnear story telling. I still stand by the story method in Beyond as cheating, it comes off to me as a decision that was made near the end of the development. I can see the defense for it, but it does leave perhaps one or two things to be desired... That and the fact that it somewhats puts a continuity error, when it puts the prologue at the end of the time line, even though it happens way earlier in the time line (which one of the levels does build up to). (NOTE: My mistake, started a new game to be sure, and the prologue was the point where she was talking about her life. My bad!)

I agree with you on the point of her kissing those boys, though... it is strange that one scene shows one of them taking her screaming away from Willem and cursing him off and hating him... only for the next scene to show that she now fancies him. Some may call it "we're only seen important moments of her life," but it falls a bit flat when the game suddenly tells us to dislike him one moment, then liking him the next

And Jodie... yea she is relatable, and if it weren't for that, I probably wouldn't have finished the game at all (the Indian section would have killed the game for me completely)

Ovrad:
Cage: Mostly quick time events, limited exploration, and giving you mostly illusions of choice. The characters, which should be one of the main focus of the game, are really shallow in David Cage's, and barely have any development. You can sum up all the characters in B:TS in 3 words..or less. FILLED with plot holes. There's just so many in every scene it's baffling at times if you stop and think about it for two seconds. His 'plot twists' are extremely predictable. I believe I saw every single one of them coming in B:TS.

And that summarizes David Cage's massive problems in the writing department.

Aiddon:
Y'know, am I the only one who notices that practically EVERY designer who goes on about wanting to write great stories or bashes video game writing in general are probably the least qualified to say that? Cage rails against games for their stories, but his games have TERRIBLE narratives and tepid dialogue. Another example of this is Antoniades over at Ninja Theory who constantly brags about his narrative talents despite A) having HIRED other writers to write his games for him and B) when he finally DID write a script himself it was a goddamned, pretentious mess. And of course then there's Rhiana Pratchett, who is a writer instead of a designer but is very...average. She's not terrible, but she clearly didn't inherit her father's talent as a writer. The irony is PAINFUL.

I've noticed this too. So many game devs who this do shit or claim their game is "a different kind of story" are so full of shit their eyes are brown.

On a related note:

Captcha: the bee's knees.
That it is.

rhodo:

I agree with that.

Also, complaining about Cage's writing? Come on, tell me a recent videogame that had a REALLY good plot.

Fair enough.

Bioshock: Infinite
Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs
The Wolf among Us
The Last of US
The Walking Dead
Spec Ops: The Line

All of the above have far, far, faaaaaaaaaar better writing than Cage's crap. When people buy this game to laugh at the ridiculous story rifftrax style, well, that says something.

Piorn:
His Hobo-Love actually started way back in Fahrenheit, when he pulled a Hobo-Rebel-Force out of his ass to fight the mayans and the internet, 5 minutes before the ending.

Also obligatory "X is a failure of the game designer"-joke here.

The sad part about Farenheit was that is was actually not bad until the third act. Then came the third act, which I was expecting an "all a dream/the powerful hallucinogenics just wore off" reveal from. Unfortunately, that never came. Seriously, the third act could have been explained away as a hallucination and the plot would have made more sense. Think about that.

Well it can not be as bad as all that *checks Metacritic* see it has an 8.1 right now.... With 301 positive reveiwers, most of them giving it a 10........ Wait.... *checks an entire page of reviewers profiles* yeah they all have only one game on their review history.... ok the game dev is artificaily inflating the score.... Yeah fuck this game.

Schadrach:

Piorn:
His Hobo-Love actually started way back in Fahrenheit, when he pulled a Hobo-Rebel-Force out of his ass to fight the mayans and the internet, 5 minutes before the ending.

Also obligatory "X is a failure of the game designer"-joke here.

The sad part about Farenheit was that is was actually not bad until the third act. Then came the third act, which I was expecting an "all a dream/the powerful hallucinogenics just wore off" reveal from. Unfortunately, that never came. Seriously, the third act could have been explained away as a hallucination and the plot would have made more sense. Think about that.

The sad part is that the third act would have made sense if the team had not run out of money 2/3 through. There were supposed to be a whole bunch of content explaining Lucas's resurrection and why he is not really a corpse (he is in the game). If I recall correctly around 1/4 of the game could not be completed due to money problems. I don't know if it's because they mismanaged the money or if they had unexpected expences during the development, but there you go.

Not an exuse for shoddy planning, but an explanation why the game looked the way it did. I remember getting so excited when starting it, with the sweet graphics and Cage's hard on for Angelo Badalamenti. And then you know what happened.

SecretNegative:

rhodo:

I agree with that.

Also, complaining about Cage's writing? Come on, tell me a recent videogame that had a REALLY good plot.

Fair enough.

Bioshock: Infinite
Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs
The Wolf among Us
The Last of US
The Walking Dead
Spec Ops: The Line

All of the above have far, far, faaaaaaaaaar better writing than Cage's crap. When people buy this game to laugh at the ridiculous story rifftrax style, well, that says something.

I think all of those are crap, plot-wise. Think very carefully about them and tell me where are they more creative than Beyond: Two Souls.

Now perhaps if you were to say "the original Bioshock" or "Metal gear Solid 3", we could be up to something.

slash2x:
Well it can not be as bad as all that *checks Metacritic* see it has an 8.1 right now.... With 301 positive reveiwers, most of them giving it a 10........ Wait.... *checks an entire page of reviewers profiles* yeah they all have only one game on their review history.... ok the game dev is artificaily inflating the score.... Yeah fuck this game.

Are you quite sure?

Because the big Italian websites I come from all gave high scores to Beyond, and none of them is an inflated trick.

Actually.... scratch that. If you need metacritic to buy something, don't ever buy anything please.

rhodo:

Now perhaps if you were to say "the original Bioshock" or "Metal gear Solid 3", we could be up to something.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ok, I'm done.

It's pretty clear we have different tastes, and arguing will get us nowhere.

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