Zero Punctuation: Beyond: Two Souls

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SecretNegative:

rhodo:

Now perhaps if you were to say "the original Bioshock" or "Metal gear Solid 3", we could be up to something.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ok, I'm done.

Edit to avoid modwrath: It's pretty clear we have different tastes, and arguing will get us nowhere.

Point taken, I guess. To each their own.

rhodo:

slash2x:
Well it can not be as bad as all that *checks Metacritic* see it has an 8.1 right now.... With 301 positive reveiwers, most of them giving it a 10........ Wait.... *checks an entire page of reviewers profiles* yeah they all have only one game on their review history.... ok the game dev is artificaily inflating the score.... Yeah fuck this game.

Are you quite sure?

Because the big Italian websites I come from all gave high scores to Beyond, and none of them is an inflated trick.

Actually.... scratch that. If you need metacritic to buy something, don't ever buy anything please.

Yeah...... I am going to keep going to metacritic and making informed descisions based upon the median score and seeing what the issues are. Instead of just throwing money randomly at games....

anonymity88:

Thunderous Cacophony:
I like Ellen Page, but I honestly can't tell if Yahtzee is criticizing her, or just can't remember the main character's name. Ah well, if I need a decent ghost game I can always dig out Geist.

Might be because all the promotional stuff I've seen for the game has made a big stink about having Ellen Page in the game. Like it is literally all that it says about it...

If you didn't know any better, you could probably be forgiven for thinking this was a film of some sort, given that the posters are extremely keen to tell you that this game has Real Actual Actors in it and that it was the "Official Selection" for the something-or-other festival.

I preferred Ellen Page in Super anyway. And Willem Dafoe, in, er, Family Guy, maybe?

rhodo:

As a woman, I am so very, very, very annoyed by comments like yours.

For once, I get a game in which I feel I actually am in the shoes of a female such a myself, and not in the shoes of some sexed-up male fantasy blowup doll. And now you come to say this game is soooo totally full of disgusting fetish.

Because really.... Catherine, Bayonetta, Ivy, they're all realistic women and not pandering fetishes. Let's be horrified by Jodie! She even dresses like a normal lady, and even dares to kiss boys! How does she dare to not pander to my entitled male privilege fantasies? She's an awful female character!

As for the photos of Ellen Page as a child. I would have done the exact same thing. When I'm developing a game which shows the main character as a child for an important part of the it, and I have to choose an actress for the role, I would definitely look up images of that person as a child. And then show them to the actress in the interview, while discussing her role.

This soooo makes me some kind of pervert fetishist, is it? Even if I'm a straight woman.

Then again, maybe I shouldn't get so pissed. After all, hate talk like this comes exactly from the game daring to stir up issues. It's the same reason you see so many people hating on anyone who calls out on gender issues.

First of all, Bayonetta was taking the piss out of all of the standard videogame female stuff. I am shocked at how much campy as all hell comedic approach flies over people's heads. You may as well try to say Red Dwarf was a serious and dramatic look at the future of mankind.

The others though, yeah pretty much, Catherine at least has the plot reason of being a succubus sent to tempt men into luring them to their demise... but still.

As for the problems with Beyond's romances - People aren't necessarily upset that she's kissing boys or that she's not filling into some fetish, it's that they're purported to be something substantial when they're not.

Spoilers ahead:

CIA Guy -

First time you see him, you're working for the CIA and he just says, "Get the job done." and you're at a party. Second time you see him it's during the training montage where he just nods approvingly in the background when you do stuff right.
In his third scene he's calling you an angsty brat and no amount of your whining will change the fact that he's dragging you from your like second adopted family. That scene immediately transitions to one where he's coming over and Jodie says she's falling for him and wants to impress him on their date.
It's implied that they're working relationship is the reason or something, but you dont' see any of it. There's a lot of tell and don't show which is the weakest style of writing for any visual media.
The man man goes from just straight calling you a brat and being cold, then to calling Jodie special at dinner and she can fuck him. Soon afterwards he sends her on assassination missions where he lies and emotionally manipulates Jodie into killing a democratically elected president for American interests.

Cut to their next date when he's apologetic, asking for forgiveness and if she's still made for it. Following that he says he loves her.

THOSE ARE THE ACTIONS OF AN ABUSIVE SOCIOPATH. Yet Beyond would have you believe he's the perfect gentlman and lover to Jodie.

Anyway, onto Romance two, the native american dude.

This guy doesn't even really have a character, you speak to him six or seven times and at the end you can choose to run off with him.

That one follows the Quantic method of the woman suddenly and without any indication completely falling for some guy she's had little to no interaction with. It's weak and shallow. But who cares, he's a swarthy handsome fellow, right?

Everything good about the game was the Willem Dafoe plot, and that's all shoved into the last act to make room for weak ass romance and the government trying to get into the ghost world for spirit oil to make stronger soldiers. And even that plot is gets screwed up with the native american demons bit at the end.

Going light on gameplay for the sake of plot and characterization is fine, just Quantum can't seem to help themselves from doing stupid, stupid plots with little to no actual character development.

There's only one thing you need to know about this "game"... There's a bit of dialogue that goes like this:

Dafoe: It's over, Jodie.

Page: It's never over.

So yeah, fuck this terribly written, pretentious, plothole-ridden piece of shit.

David Cage. I think he needs to just leave games and go and make movies or tv series. I get and admire his ambitions for games and taking stories forward, but if his games fall at the most vital kingly hurdle, the gameplay, he's failed at his task, but hey, try telling him that. He should also be aware by now that many gamers despise QTEs. Why on earth they ended up in this game, I'll never know, when we could have had proper control. Beyond could have been a cool TP game, but what we have instead is tantamount to those FMV games that were once touted as the future of games, like Night Trap or Sewer Shark.

Nice acting and mo-cap Page and Defoe, shame about the actual gameplay, Cage.

I'll pick this up in the bargain bin, maybe. Good review, Zero.

Oh well, I get it. I'll just let you guys pat each other on the back and keep telling each other how much you hate this game, then.
Sequels over sequels over sequels of gritty games with some white male with short hair always sell well. But try something different? They just won't let you in peace. Even if your game is 1, and the gritty white males with short hair shooting at stuff are 100000000. Nope, you're not even allowed to have that 1. They won't let you.

Sorry my love for Beyond: Two Souls was spoiling your fun, guys. Keep on hating.

rhodo:
Oh well, I get it. I'll just let you guys pat each other on the back and keep telling each other how much you hate this game, then.
Sequels over sequels over sequels of gritty games with some white male with short hair always sell well. But try something different? They just won't let you in peace. Even if your game is 1, and the gritty white males with short hair shooting at stuff are 100000000. Nope, you're not even allowed to have that 1. They won't let you.

Sorry my love for Beyond: Two Souls was spoiling your fun, guys. Keep on hating.

How is not liking this game instantly equate to liking big budget shooters? I haven't picked up a shooter since goddamned Earth Defense Force, don't tell me I hate this because it's not the latest CoD-clone, I don't even hate it. I'm disappointed in it and I'm tired of Quantum shilling their B-movie grade plots as serious and deep writing.

Quit straw-manning.

And this game is totally trying to go for gritty when it has absolutely no reason to, it has so much more potential if it focused on the relationship between Jodie and Dafoe's paranormal investigator subplot. It could have been a brilliant character drama. But no, it has to go follow hollywood trends as Cage is wont to do and make it dark government conspiracies and shallow romances.

They need an editor at Quantom to smack Cage whenever he goes off course with his drafts because the guy has a serious problem with it.

rhodo:

SecretNegative:

rhodo:

I agree with that.

Also, complaining about Cage's writing? Come on, tell me a recent videogame that had a REALLY good plot.

Fair enough.

Bioshock: Infinite
Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs
The Wolf among Us
The Last of US
The Walking Dead
Spec Ops: The Line

All of the above have far, far, faaaaaaaaaar better writing than Cage's crap. When people buy this game to laugh at the ridiculous story rifftrax style, well, that says something.

I think all of those are crap, plot-wise. Think very carefully about them and tell me where are they more creative than Beyond: Two Souls.

Now perhaps if you were to say "the original Bioshock" or "Metal gear Solid 3", we could be up to something.

So, you clearly didn't play any of those or bothered to pay any attention, right?

Listen, a plot isn't good just because it's "creative" or original. If that's the only barometer you have for determining the worth of a game's plot, then you have it all wrong. Cage's ideas for stories might be original and have potential of their own, but he never fully is able to reach that potential because he simply has no idea how to write, let alone write for videogames. If he can't write, then he can at least wrangle enough talent to make a game that plays well, but Beyond has very little good or interesting gameplay to it. So if it doesn't play well enough as a game, then it's story has to be strong, which it simply isn't.

The reason the above games are remembered for their plots is not because they're inherently original but because they work well within themselves and work in the context of the games they're in.

But if you want to ignore that, then that's on you.

Cybylt:

And this game is totally trying to go for gritty when it has absolutely no reason to, it has so much more potential if it focused on the relationship between Jodie and Dafoe's paranormal investigator subplot. It could have been a brilliant character drama. But no, it has to go follow hollywood trends as Cage is wont to do and make it dark government conspiracies and shallow romances.

They need an editor at Quantom to smack Cage whenever he goes off course with his drafts because the guy has a serious problem with it.

This is a criticism I can accept.

But the generic hate some people spit at this game baffles me.

Yes, I'm the first to say this game could have been much more.
But I still really enjoyed it, and I'm not going to bash it because I want more games like this one.

Question: Why is negative critique relabeled by some as hate? I've never quite understood why these are mixed together when they are two different things.

For the record, critique is an opinion put forward on something/one. Just because I disagree with how Beyond turned out, doesn't mean I hate or disagree with what Cage is attempting to do overall. Being a pioneer in any field takes balls, but you've got to then deliver or possibly lose a nut from your sack. Beyond doesn't look that fun to me personally, while its graphics and acting are sweet (Norman Jayden says hi, lol).

Hate is a very strong word and should be used sparingly, but some seem to pop it like candy. I do dislike QTEs, not hate them as I had fun with them when they were a new thing (RE4/God of War).

rhodo:

Cybylt:

And this game is totally trying to go for gritty when it has absolutely no reason to, it has so much more potential if it focused on the relationship between Jodie and Dafoe's paranormal investigator subplot. It could have been a brilliant character drama. But no, it has to go follow hollywood trends as Cage is wont to do and make it dark government conspiracies and shallow romances.

They need an editor at Quantom to smack Cage whenever he goes off course with his drafts because the guy has a serious problem with it.

This is a criticism I can accept.

But the generic hate some people spit at this game baffles me.

Yes, I'm the first to say this game could have been much more.
But I still really enjoyed it, and I'm not going to bash it because I want more games like this one.

Honestly, Quantum and Cage probably have the safest careers of anyone in the industry. Sony's going to keep pumping money into them for the pretty graphics and so they can say they support "artistic games."

The hate comes from David Cage's rather pretentious persona, and his... well basically he comes off a lot like Molyneux, only more douchey and less playful. If that makes sense.

Military shooters have hit their popularity peak and are (slowly) on their way out, which is why you have Infinity Ward making VOTOMS. Maybe then we'll see more variety in the AAA business but we're starting to see great variety in mid-budget and indie at least. Hell, these days FROM SOFTWARE is a big name. The guys who made Armored Core and Tenchu, two niche as all hell series are now mentioned in the same breath as Bethesda and Square Enix as RPG massively popular rpg greats.

One more thing is I just wish they could make something that holds up better under scrutiny, but that goes hand in hand with getting an editor to smack him back into the right train of thought. I think they had one for Heavy Rain, that would have been a lot worse if they stuck with that "The killer and the protagonist have a psychic connection" subplot.

Kittyhawk:
Question: Why is negative critique relabeled by some as hate? I've never quite understood why these are mixed together when they are two different things.

I think it's the line between, "I dislike this because of nonsensical plots labeled as serious drama." compared to "Man, fuck David Cage. He's a dick and his games suck." Which kind of comes up a lot when the topic of Quantum Dream comes up.

Also, I believe it's Nahmin Jaedin.

Unrelated note - I want them to make one of these games where they're played as super straight and serious, and then has Tenchu 1 voice acting. "You cannot have de key. It's een mah berry ahuuhuuhuuu..." That was the best kind of bad acting.

Every game David Cage touches are just linear QTE-fests.

That isn't fun or engaging gameplay, that's lazy and boring design. I get the feeling that most of the people at quantic dream wanted to be movie producers or screenwriters at some point but failed so now they try to live their dream by making mediocre games that want to be movies but incorporate the most baseline interactive elements to be considered a game.

Just make a a friggin' movie already Cage, at leas then if I want to hear whatever hackneyed story you wrote I don't have to keep wiggling the thumbsticks and mashing the buttons the entire time.

Mechanically, it's a bit of a mess. Plotwise, it's also a bit of a mess. Characterization-wise, it's still a bit of a mess.

Unfortunately, a lot of little messes can become one rather big mess. Cage writes good emotion, I'll grant him that, but precious little else, and the main problem with emotion is that is both terribly unpredictable in regards to what you'll actually get from your audience and quite hard to evoke precisely and regularly (but that's usually more often an issue in replay).

If he could write good moods or good characterization or even a plot that wasn't as holey as the target dummy at a shotgun test range, he might have something more to stand on, but unfortunately he just really doesn't. Emotion is important, but in the end here it's just too fleeting and too little to rely on to really give this game good legs.

On a tangent:

Cybylt:
Infinity Ward making VOTOMS.

Wait, what? Where did that come from? I'm genuinely curious, really. (Unless you mean Titanfall, in which case I just got confused because I took the statement literally and apologize in advance.)

Seems to me all the hate comes from not understanding that this game was always designed to be a visual novel. The game's got QTE gameplay not because it's a failure: but because it was intended to work like this.
Nobody complains that Japanese visual novels mostly consist of pressing a button and reading text on a screen. And yet, there's a bazillion visual novels that keep being made.

Understand this: B:TS is not meant as a gameplay challenge. Just like certain videogames only ever focus on gameplay and don't have any plot at all, B:TS does the exact opposite. Is a videogame not a videogame if it only has gameplay? And is a videogame not a videogame if it only has story?

So, stuff like B:TS that only ever focuses on telling a story is not your thing. That's fine. You don't have to like it. You think a videogame must have gameplay. It's fine, and a perfectly reasonable opinion.

But hating on the game and spitting out insults like "I don't want to see any other game like this / Cage shouldn't ever be allowed to make videogames" is disrespectful of anyone who knows exactly what B:TS was meant to be (a story - a visual novel with a high budget), and likes it this way.
It's not like the market is full of these things. We get one of those every two years. Can I enjoy those, or does it bother you so much?

rhodo:
Seems to me all the hate comes from not understanding that this game was always designed to be a visual novel. The game's got QTE gameplay not because it's a failure: but because it was intended to work like this.
Nobody complains that Japanese visual novels mostly consist of pressing a button and reading text on a screen. And yet, there's a bazillion visual novels that keep being made.

Understand this: B:TS is not meant as a gameplay challenge. Just like certain videogames only ever focus on gameplay and don't have any plot at all, B:TS does the exact opposite. Is a videogame not a videogame if it only has gameplay? And is a videogame not a videogame if it only has story?

So, stuff like B:TS that only ever focuses on telling a story is not your thing. That's fine. You don't have to like it. You think a videogame must have gameplay. It's fine, and a perfectly reasonable opinion.

But hating on the game and spitting out insults like "I don't want to see any other game like this / Cage shouldn't ever be allowed to make videogames" is disrespectful of anyone who knows exactly what B:TS was meant to be (a story - a visual novel with a high budget), and likes it this way.
It's not like the market is full of these things. We get one of those every two years. Can I enjoy those, or does it bother you so much?

I would disagree. I think the problem is that the story itself is poorly executed--even taking it as a visual novel, its plot is pitted with narrative gaps, the characterization is stilted, and on the whole feels inconsistent. It is, in short, suffering from a low grade of writing.

As a consumer of visual novel type games which sit heavily on their story and a degree of logical puzzle solving (Ace Attorney et al), a game trying to sell itself on its story that only manages to sell itself on its emotion is, at best, fleeting and shallow (as emotions are reactive and often instinctual), and at worse trying to cover its pitfalls. Its mechanics aren't its true problem, but they certainly don't assist in dealing with the flaws caused by the writing.

I'm personally not against the genre, or even anyone enjoying this game, as I know that tastes will differ, but the story being told here could have been handled better, and that fact needs to be acknowledged so we don't keep ending up with games of ultimately mediocre quality and irate consumer bases.

Going back to my standing example, Ace Attorney is mechanically a lot of reading interspersed with a few button presses, hidden item screens, and thinking puzzles, but it also gives us nice, consistent characterization and a plot path that fills in its deliberately absent main points during the course of the game. It's definitely more story than gameplay, don't get me wrong, but it manages to have what gameplay it does have serve its writing, and keep its characters strong enough serve the story they're in. BTS, unfortunately, can't make the same claims.

Saika, I'll just say that you can't say you dislike B:TS's story...... and then bring Ace Attorney as an example. Because, I've been playing those games. I hope you're not telling me they have a better story and characters than B:TS.

rhodo:
Saika, I'll just say that you can't say you dislike B:TS's story...... and then bring Ace Attorney as an example. Because, I've been playing those games. I hope you're not telling me they have a better story and characters than B:TS.

I'll have you know that I do dislike how BTS' story was handled, and I am boldfacedly making the claim that AA's stories are better written. What you say I can and cannot dislike based on your opinions has precisely no bearing on what I do like or dislike.

I will make my stance as clear as can be, then: Ace Attorney's characters are consistently well characterized. The narrative path is solid--while its story starts with unfilled gaps, as with any good mystery, the gameplay and narrative served by that gameplay in turn serves to fill those gaps in. Even some of the most obnoxious characters in AA (Luke Atmey? Mike Meekins? No?) didn't make me lose the emotional connect with them the way I did in BTS.

If you need an example, how about the birthday party in BTS? As someone who was bullied in his youth I honestly saw the events there coming from a mile off, but I'm not bothered by the use of the tropes, just its execution. At no point was there anything that garnered human sympathy about the little brats in that scene. Even when they cried for their mothers when Aiden basically started going Poltergeist on them, all that I experienced from the scene was an emotion: a desire for revenge.

I understand why the scene is there--it shows us how Jodie is different from her peers in more than just her link with Aiden--but at the end I didn't feel the urge to sympathize with or comfort Jodie after what had transpired. All I wanted was to make each of the little stereotypical little wankers at the party hurt more. It's a moment of emotion, but it's not particularly good storytelling.

The writing doesn't help to humanize Jodie for being bullied or not fitting in, or her bullies for doing what they do. They're flat antagonists and she is a very limited protagonist--she's trying to be non-confrontational and then trying to limit the damage Aiden causes, fine, but the game doesn't give us, the player, the emotional breadth and deeper understanding that could be there, and a narrative-centric experience has to offer those sorts of things to keep a player in their game. The scene they're in tells an event more than a story. We have a setting, but we don't have a mood and we don't have a lot of actual characters. Her antagonists are so poorly sold to us that when Jodie tells Aiden to stop, it's a plea that fell on deaf ears for me, because the emotional disconnect between their flat portrayal and situation they are in is such that they come across as the type who would be made suffer worse in broader settings (see also Carrie). The existence of Jodie and the other kids as stereotypes, of both shrinking violets and rich bullies, is ultimately not strong enough to carry the scene as anything but revenge fantasy; they don't feel 'real.' It tries to immerse us, but is using too shallow a portrayal. This is just one example from the game, but it's one that sticks out for me to demonstrate BTS' inability to sell us its characters and its mood, and ultimately David Cage's writing.

Ace Attorney isn't ashamed to be a visual novel/puzzle game that tugs at you emotionally, but it doesn't rely only on those emotional tugs. Let's take an example from there. Since you said you're still playing, I won't spoil too severely--at one point in Justice For All, you're expected to make an already vulnerable and victimized character suffer even further just so your case has a leg to stand on.

Why do I bring this up as my example? Because all the characters involved--both attorneys, the judge, the one who suffers, secondary cast...all of them have believable reactions, consistent to their characterization, to what you've done in the course of this case. In that moment, you feel -bad- for what you've done, and what you've made Phoenix do, because while you don't have any other choice in the linear course of the narrative, you're doing this at the expense of someone that the game has given you ample time to build sympathy for and learn about. The characters certainly look less real, and they and their situations are both grossly exaggerated, but they -feel- human because they're believable in what they do and how they respond. They take stereotypes and rise above them. In the limits of circumstances and setting, we can accept that they're the sorts of actions that people we know, including ourselves, would take. Ace Attorney also makes us feel emotions, yes, but it also engages on a deeper level than BTS because of its stronger writing and can call on that writing to provide the sort of connection between player and characters that BTS lacks.

Finally, isn't it hypocritical is it to say that I cannot dislike something you like on the basis of the story, when you in turn then say that you are free to dislike something that others like on the basis of the story? A bit of a double standard for claiming you may like your preferred game's story, and I may not like mine? I am at least willing to offer some evidence for my position, ironically enough given the examples at hand. You have merely said what I can and cannot do on the basis of your opinion. However, because of the inherent hypocrisy of the statement you have made, I hereby exercise my standards and decline to debate you further. Good day.

Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters". You can totally tell by the character design of Ace Attorney that it's super realistic:

http://g3ar.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/PhoenixWrightMovie-G3AR.jpg

Such stunning realism. These are all real people we can all relate to. You're right; they're so much more believable than the characters of B:TS.

You can say you enjoy the plot of Ace Attorney more. You CAN'T say the Ace Attorney characters are more believable.... please.

On an unrelated note, it's funny to notice that while Americans keep hating on this game, Italian websites keep loving it:

http://multiplayer.it/notizie/124772-beyond-due-anime-beyond-due-anime-e-il-giudizio-del-popolo.html

To the point of making fun of all the haters.

rhodo:
Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters". You can totally tell by the character design of Ace Attorney that it's super realistic:

http://g3ar.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/PhoenixWrightMovie-G3AR.jpg

Such stunning realism. These are all real people we can all relate to. You're right; they're so much more believable than the characters of B:TS.

You can say you enjoy the plot of Ace Attorney more. You CAN'T say the Ace Attorney characters are more believable.... please.

On an unrelated note, it's funny to notice that while Americans keep hating on this game, Italian websites keep loving it:

http://multiplayer.it/notizie/124772-beyond-due-anime-beyond-due-anime-e-il-giudizio-del-popolo.html

To the point of making fun of all the haters.

Please stop with the sarcastic tone. I did not take one with you, and I suspect you also have not read any of my words or the points I was trying to make, and on top of that are trying to drag this discussion to game areas I never mentioned as the sticking point. How they look is and never was the issue. It was about how a character acts and what the story does to allow us to act -and- react to them. That is what is believable in AA but not BTS. The AA characters -are- more believable than the ones in BTS for the reasons I outlined in my previous message.

Also, that's a movie poster, of course the appearances from the game look silly when faithfully translated to real life. That was kind of the idea. I watched that movie, even the audience's hair was patently ridiculous.

I see I was wise in declining to debate you any further. You possess no credibility in this matter, and as such I am disinclined to accept your evidence: the mocking of critics of a work do not justify the work, just as saying 'brony haters suck' in no way means that My Little Pony is good, or that saying 'Justin Bieber haters suck' means that Justin Bieber is good. Furthermore, positive reviews from one country do not automatically silence negative reviews from others, and vice versa, but neither can ignore what I wanted to present as the narrative flaws--a problem with the mechanics of literature.

You have forfeited this debate, and therefore your position and defense in it, as I presented my case and evidence in good faith but have not had that good faith returned. Therefore, I remain confident supporting my claims in the face of no credible opposition.

Farewell.

Okay people this whole David Cage is video game scum thing is starting to get to Anita Sarkeesian levels of ridiculousness here.

You don't like his games? Okay.

You think he's a terrible writer (something that seems to plague games in general so I don't know why he's singled out) fine.

But clearly his games cater to a specific niche audience in the market.

I don't know why so many people want this guy purged from the gaming industry. It's like as much as we claim how open of a gaming community we are, if your a dude/gal who doesn't fit our criteria then you can't be here and anything you make will somehow infiltrate and destroy the gaming culture as we know it.

Come on. This is ridiculous.

David Cage and his oddball games aren't doing any harm to anyone. The amount of people basically asking the man to be shamed for life over stupid crap like shit story telling is beyond stupid.

Vote with your wallets as they always say. Don't like it. Then...well...don't buy it?

rhodo:
Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters". You can totally tell by the character design of Ace Attorney that it's super realistic:

http://g3ar.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/PhoenixWrightMovie-G3AR.jpg

Such stunning realism. These are all real people we can all relate to. You're right; they're so much more believable than the characters of B:TS.

You can say you enjoy the plot of Ace Attorney more. You CAN'T say the Ace Attorney characters are more believable.... please.

On an unrelated note, it's funny to notice that while Americans keep hating on this game, Italian websites keep loving it:

http://multiplayer.it/notizie/124772-beyond-due-anime-beyond-due-anime-e-il-giudizio-del-popolo.html

To the point of making fun of all the haters.

An anime may not have more believable LOOKING characters, but that doesn't mean they aren't as capable as being as HUMAN. Not only that, but 'realism' in the looks department shouldn't one of the key factors that makes a character relatable, as a character's personality, drive and motives should be more key.
Now, I think we all need to come to an agreement: you are entitled to like the game. You are even entitled to defend it. You are NOT, however, allowed to take shots at other games to defend the game you like, as that is not only cheap, but very immature, and can be used to highlight a lack of available points worth defending in the game you are trying to defend. I would also advise against White Knighting from a personal perspective, since that can more stress then it's worth.

Look, I see the game as this: it wasn't awful, and had some good ideas and features, but plays far too much like an interactive movie for my liking. I think it would have done better if, say, there was more focus on using the ghost as both puzzle solving and combat, and less forced QTE's*. That could have made a better game.

*I don't think having QTE's as a core mechanic is inherently a bad idea, take Asura's Wrath: that game was practically nothing but QTE's broken up by occasional beat-em up sections, but it was pretty damn fun to play, and the characters were pleasantly over the top and fun to watch (helps I'm a great fan of Shonen anime, but I digress).

Dragonbums:
Okay people this whole David Cage is video game scum thing is starting to get to Anita Sarkeesian levels of ridiculousness here.

You don't like his games? Okay.

You think he's a terrible writer (something that seems to plague games in general so I don't know why he's singled out) fine.

But clearly his games cater to a specific niche audience in the market.

I don't know why so many people want this guy purged from the gaming industry. It's like as much as we claim how open of a gaming community we are, if your a dude/gal who doesn't fit our criteria then you can't be here and anything you make will somehow infiltrate and destroy the gaming culture as we know it.

Come on. This is ridiculous.

David Cage and his oddball games aren't doing any harm to anyone. The amount of people basically asking the man to be shamed for life over stupid crap like shit story telling is beyond stupid.

Vote with your wallets as they always say. Don't like it. Then...well...don't buy it?

Finally, the voice of reason.

Guys, were you honestly expecting anything different than QTE? I bought Beyond expecting EXACTLY a QTE-fest. It's what the entire game is about.
It's like if you were to buy a football game, and then you gave it a low score and kept whining about how a bad game it is because it's about playing football while you expected it to be about driving cars.
It's like if you were to buy a Pokèmon game and then gave it a low score because it's not a fighting game.
It's like if you were to buy Rocksmith and then hated it because all you do in that game is play music.

A wise person who doesn't like football games or music games or Pokemon will simply ignore it and move on. These people usually don't spend time hating on the game because it's not the game they wanted it to be. They just ignore it and move on, letting people who like that kinda stuff enjoy it.

I hate GTA5 but I didn't spend my time going on GTA forums and hating on it. I hated Bioshock Infinite too, and I haven't ever gone to a forum to say about how I think it's a bad game and people are bad for enjoying it.

I'll add that any reviewer who gave B:TS a low score because "it doesn't have gameplay" is a moron who shouldn't review anything.
if a reviewer gave the game a low score for well thought out reasons about how it -could- have had better structure, or because they felt it wasn't compelling enough, then it's different and I can respect that. But I don't think anyone who gave B:TS a low score thought about anything but "waaah the gameplay is not like I wanted it! I bought a pizza expecting it to taste like cake!!"

And it's a very interesting cultural phenomenon to see the completely different atmosphere between Italian forums and American forums. It really is a bizarro reality. Italian forums hailing the game as a masterpiece, American forums calling it the worst game ever. As someone surfing both places, it really is incredible!

(Yeah, I've decided to not waste any more time on that absurd comparison between Ace Attoney and Beyond: Two Souls because it was just too nonsensical.)

I don't get why so many people are on the hate train against David Cage. I see people all over the internet just being a fucking asshole about him. Take Moviebob for example. I don't understand why he so meanspirted about David Cage. He hasn't played any of of his game (he has no PS3 and I doubt that he knew what Fahrenheit was) and I all see is him pissing all over Cage. I don't get it. He is trying to do something diffrent in storytelling. He is doing more for this industry then Shigeru Miyamoto has done in the last 4 years. There! I said it.

Saika Renegade:
-snip-

That is kinda the thing, what Cage is doing isn't new, it's just more stuck-up. He's doing nothing more than making visual novels or adventure games but on an inflated budget. And there are COUNTLESS titles in those genres I'd recommend before his stuff. Katawa Shoujo, Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward, Ace Attorney, Monkey Island, The Walking Dead, The Wolf Among Us, Sam and Max, Gabriel Knight, Broken Sword, Hotel Dusk, Back to the Future, Beneath a Steel Sky, The Book of Unwritten Tales, Full Throttle, Day of the Tentacle, Indiana Jones, Zack and Wiki etc. Those games have FAR better characters and writing, so I just don't get this obsession so many journalists have with Cage. That's before getting into games in other GENRES that are far more competent at telling stories. Though I guess I can't STAY mad; more than likely his 15 minutes are up so he'll be doomed to obscurity just like all the other one-hit wonders who have plagued games in the past thirty years.

Saika Renegade:

Cybylt:
Infinity Ward making VOTOMS.

Wait, what? Where did that come from? I'm genuinely curious, really. (Unless you mean Titanfall, in which case I just got confused because I took the statement literally and apologize in advance.)

I just call Titanfall VOTOMS, because it kind of is.

rhodo:
Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters". You can totally tell by the character design of Ace Attorney that it's super realistic:

http://g3ar.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/PhoenixWrightMovie-G3AR.jpg

Such stunning realism. These are all real people we can all relate to. You're right; they're so much more believable than the characters of B:TS.

You can say you enjoy the plot of Ace Attorney more. You CAN'T say the Ace Attorney characters are more believable.... please.

On an unrelated note, it's funny to notice that while Americans keep hating on this game, Italian websites keep loving it:

http://multiplayer.it/notizie/124772-beyond-due-anime-beyond-due-anime-e-il-giudizio-del-popolo.html

To the point of making fun of all the haters.

I can't help but find this incredibly hypocritical. As well as incredibly dickish. You posit that people dislike it purely from a gameplay point of view and when someone comes along saying that they find the story and characterization lacking and show something they feel is better at it, your response it "BUT MUH GRAPHICS." You ignore and bash them in the same way you claim so many do for this game. You may as well be saying Jim's rather famous line, though without any hint of sarcasm or humor, "Polygons IS Emotions."

Graphical fidelity doesn't make the characters instantly more real or believable, in fact it only serves to highlight every mistake in action and emotion. Probably why there's little to no room for subtle expression in Quantum's games.

Well, I'll give David Cage this: He's making a fine case for why "interactive movie experiences" aren't really games.
Suck out the gameplay from a "game", focus on the "cinematic" elements, and you're left with a shitty choose your own adventure book...with graphics...and no real choices.

Aiddon:

Saika Renegade:
-snip-

That is kinda the thing, what Cage is doing isn't new, it's just more stuck-up. He's doing nothing more than making visual novels or adventure games but on an inflated budget. And there are COUNTLESS titles in those genres I'd recommend before his stuff. Katawa Shoujo, Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward, Ace Attorney, Monkey Island, The Walking Dead, The Wolf Among Us, Sam and Max, Gabriel Knight, Broken Sword, Hotel Dusk, Back to the Future, Beneath a Steel Sky, The Book of Unwritten Tales, Full Throttle, Day of the Tentacle, Indiana Jones, Zack and Wiki etc. Those games have FAR better characters and writing, so I just don't get this obsession so many journalists have with Cage. That's before getting into games in other GENRES that are far more competent at telling stories. Though I guess I can't STAY mad; more than likely his 15 minutes are up so he'll be doomed to obscurity just like all the other one-hit wonders who have plagued games in the past thirty years.

Basically that's the core of the issue for me. I'll admit that I'm no journalist, nor am I specifically focused on Cage for any reason, even for his attitude (maybe it could do with improvement as well, but couldn't we all). I don't even necessarily ask that he do something novel each time--several games have shown that you can take their basic tropes and play with them intelligently while still using them outright (for instance, Bowser's Inside Story toys with the notion of the pure hero-versus-villain fantasy while still being a fantastical setting with a pure hero and obvious villain). I genuinely feel that Cage could actually have made something like BTS a much more engaging experience if he would sit down and find a way to evolve his writing beyond what it has been for his last couple of games. The man writes a good emotional grip (the finger scene in Heavy Rain was a hell of a thing), but I would like to see his writing breadth and its quality both grow, same as I would with any writer who uses only one or two of the tools in their literary kit.

I'm more irked that people seem to think that criticism of a subject automatically equates to hatred, anger, or wishing to see the subject of criticism wither and fail. I'm of the opinion that criticism is something for the subject's use, to better understand and -improve- their work, since I wouldn't mind seeing another strong narrative based experience with greater depth to it. If Cage can deliver it, I'll give his next effort a look and give writing credit where credit is due if he manages it. Until then, best to note the pitfalls so that more narratives don't end up suffering the same issues.

Cybylt:

I just call Titanfall VOTOMS, because it kind of is.

Right, got it. I had a moment of hope there as a fan of twenty-year-old robot anime, and the heavily realistic sort besides. Titanfall looks interesting, though it does have a few more fantastical elements. Not complaining though, I've been hoping for some good on-the-ground robots and infantry fun--time to wait and see, I suppose. While I might have liked to have seen a campaign somewhere in there, I know that wasn't their target gameplay experience and don't begrudge them for it. A man can dream, after all.

Tank207:

It wasn't that bad at first, but then it got to the birthday party and I just had to roll my eyes because of how stupid it was. Kids can be horrible little monsters yeah, but that was just silly. "Show us your super murder ghost powers!" followed shortly by "A book!? BUUUURN HEEEEER!".

I've seen kids get stabbed for less than that at my high school(one kid got stabbed in the lung because he put a poptart on another kid's head), and I've seen kids get just the regular bully treatment(basically what Ellen got) for even less. It definitely could have been shown in a better way, but teenagers are horrible people.

Atmos Duality:
Well, I'll give David Cage this: He's making a fine case for why "interactive movie experiences" aren't really games.
Suck out the gameplay from a "game", focus on the "cinematic" elements, and you're left with a shitty choose your own adventure book...with graphics...and no real choices.

This, right here. Listen to this man and/or woman! This is exaclty what is wrong with David Cage's design philosophy.

Cybylt:
[quote="Saika Renegade" post="6.831728.20324137"]

I can't help but find this incredibly hypocritical. As well as incredibly dickish. You posit that people dislike it purely from a gameplay point of view and when someone comes along saying that they find the story and characterization lacking and show something they feel is better at it, your response it "BUT MUH GRAPHICS." You ignore and bash them in the same way you claim so many do for this game. You may as well be saying Jim's rather famous line, though without any hint of sarcasm or humor, "Polygons IS Emotions."

Graphical fidelity doesn't make the characters instantly more real or believable, in fact it only serves to highlight every mistake in action and emotion. Probably why there's little to no room for subtle expression in Quantum's games.

Excuse me, but where and when did I ever make a graphic comparison?

Heck, I've even decided to pick up an image from the Ace Attorney live action movie precisely to avoid any graphic comparison.

This is what is fun about the internet; everyone doesn't listen to what the other says but just interprets what they want to interpret.

rhodo:

Excuse me, but where and when did I ever make a graphic comparison?

Heck, I've even decided to pick up an image from the Ace Attorney live action movie precisely to avoid any graphic comparison.

This is what is fun about the internet; everyone doesn't listen to what the other says but just interprets what they want to interpret.

"Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters"."

and

"Such stunning realism."

I'm sorry if I misunderstood but saying that heavily implies that the characters are unbelievable simply because of the aesthetic.

I may have jumped at it a bit too, but it is no less hyperbolic than your "If you don't like Beyond it's because you don't like stories and only want shooters and guys with shaved heads," argument. An argument you continued to use even when people were criticizing the story elements and using games they feel have better story focused play than Beyond as examples.

My first impression of David comes from Two best Friends' Playtrough of Heavy Rain and more importantly Indigo Prophecy. I played it myself afterwards because the game has really interesting concepts in the beginning. Its hillariously bad afterwards, the Story goes completely apesh*t. Heavy Rain was a bit less whacko, but had too much needless plot elements, strange scenes and _horrible_ characters. The guy also tends to overdo it in terms of hype and marketing his games. I find the Molyneux comparison really fitting.

Now, BTS isnt offensively bad to me. The Story is again so ridicolous that i will watch LP's purely to laugh at it. But the Game, much like stuff from Telltale, fall into a niche i cant really get into. I never buy Telltale stuff, i watch it. Its exactly the same with stuff from David Cage (Altough i watch Telltale because the Story is fantastic, and Cage because its hillariously over the top and from time to time outright retarded.). They arent games in my book, they are Movies where im required to press a button from time to time to go either left or right.

So yeah, i would be lying if i said Cage dropping out of the industry would have me weeping. On the other hand, if people like it, let them like it. At least he thinks outside of the Box gameplaywise and offers material i can get a good laugh out off. Besides, the niche isnt big enough that it influences anything, noone takes Games with actual _Gameplay_ away from you just because Cage wants to write "Videogame" on the backside of his interactive movie.

shameduser:
Well I liked it. I liked all of David Cages games.

Here here! I finished it last night and absolutely loved it, as I've loved every David Cage game I've ever played. I will defend his games to the death

Cybylt:

rhodo:

Excuse me, but where and when did I ever make a graphic comparison?

Heck, I've even decided to pick up an image from the Ace Attorney live action movie precisely to avoid any graphic comparison.

This is what is fun about the internet; everyone doesn't listen to what the other says but just interprets what they want to interpret.

"Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters"."

and

"Such stunning realism."

I'm sorry if I misunderstood but saying that heavily implies that the characters are unbelievable simply because of the aesthetic.

Both of my comments there weren't referring to the aestethics. Unless by aestethic you only intended the crazy dumb anime hair and clothing, in that cases, visuals were definitely a part of what I meant.

Definitely not even the slightest concern about pixel count.

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