The Quota

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I'm not sure which game is being parodied or what's going on. Is it a next-gen thing?

Johnny Novgorod:
I'm not sure which game is being parodied or what's going on. Is it a next-gen thing?

DOTA 2 or LOL. I think. The joke is that there are creeps who will give money when you kill them and with the money you can buy items to make you better. So if you dont kill them they will level up ( not in the game but it works for the joke)

Kyrdra:

Johnny Novgorod:
I'm not sure which game is being parodied or what's going on. Is it a next-gen thing?

DOTA 2 or LOL. I think. The joke is that there are creeps who will give money when you kill them and with the money you can buy items to make you better. So if you dont kill them they will level up ( not in the game but it works for the joke)

So in the last panel they've basically spent the money they would've paid off when killed on themselves. Gotcha.

I'm guessing this is a joke about some MOBA I don't play.

That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

That'd add a...very interesting new aspect to the game if that's how it really worked. Imagine how pissed players would get if creeps started beating their asses with ridiculously powerful gear.

It's DOTA2, and I think they've got themselves an Aghanim's Sceptor and a Rap(e)ier. So, I guess their team killed that lanes ranged and melee 'racks? Bastards certainly feel like they're equipped like that when you're on the end of a stomping.

Edit: I did get the joke, I just wanted to make my own :)

Fucking Noob Void, learn to last hit scrub.

Crystal Maiden, hard carry.

Looking at this strip and the comments I feel like such a scrub. Y'all are speaking another language. I'm clearly not a real gamer!

Carry creeps hard push mid lane. Void got outfarmed yo.

MAIDEN, NEED WARDS!

Those rules actually harken back to about every MMO ever, 5 years ago. MMOs now have evolved a bit in their loot distribution thankfully so "last hit" only applies to MOBAs, where I'm sure the intent is to make them more competitive. Griefing is just another aspect of competition after all.

rasputin0009:
That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

Proper last hitting takes skill, just auto attacking doesn't.
Also, it would be counter productive.
Purely auto attacking pushes your lane, which brings you in danger.
It would end up "push line and now go back to tower and wait for the next wave".

Also, without the need to last hit, denying wouldn't have any purpose.
As it is now, denying will deny the enemy 100% of the gold they could have gotten and 50-75% of the experience.

tl.dr. Last hitting adds a strategical element to the game that auto attacking couldn't.

BiH-Kira:

rasputin0009:
That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

Proper last hitting takes skill, just auto attacking doesn't.

The fact that something takes skill does not mean it adds to the gameplay. It would also take skill if you were required to run a partial circle of exactly 270 degrees around every enemy before they could die, but it still wouldn't be good design.

BiH-Kira:
Also, without the need to last hit, denying wouldn't have any purpose.
As it is now, denying will deny the enemy 100% of the gold they could have gotten and 50-75% of the experience.

Denying is also an idiotic game mechanic. It should have been nixed when the bug that allowed it first popped up back in DotA, rather than becoming a supported part of the core gameplay.

UltimatheChosen:

BiH-Kira:

rasputin0009:
That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

Proper last hitting takes skill, just auto attacking doesn't.

The fact that something takes skill does not mean it adds to the gameplay.

Skilled things always add to gameplay, it's whether or not they'd be worthwhile additions to gameplay. In this case they are worthwhile additions. You can choose to disagree, but you'd be wrong.

BiH-Kira:
Also, without the need to last hit, denying wouldn't have any purpose.
As it is now, denying will deny the enemy 100% of the gold they could have gotten and 50-75% of the experience.

Denying is also an idiotic game mechanic. It should have been nixed when the bug that allowed it first popped up back in DotA, rather than becoming a supported part of the core gameplay.

Denying I can take or leave, but it too adds depth that LoL just doesn't have. I don't even play DOTA2, I play LoL. But I watch DOTA2.

UltimatheChosen:

BiH-Kira:

rasputin0009:
That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

Proper last hitting takes skill, just auto attacking doesn't.

The fact that something takes skill does not mean it adds to the gameplay. It would also take skill if you were required to run a partial circle of exactly 270 degrees around every enemy before they could die, but it still wouldn't be good design.

BiH-Kira:
Also, without the need to last hit, denying wouldn't have any purpose.
As it is now, denying will deny the enemy 100% of the gold they could have gotten and 50-75% of the experience.

Denying is also an idiotic game mechanic. It should have been nixed when the bug that allowed it first popped up back in DotA, rather than becoming a supported part of the core gameplay.

Okay, lets say we remove last hitting and denying.
What is actually left for early game to do?

What is the option to prevent an enemy carry from getting fed?

Removing those elements won't add anything useful to the game. It will only make the slow early game even slower.
Some heroes have slow projectiles and long attack animations because that balances them out. They have other strong skills.

If we removed that aspect, IceForg would have to nerf those strong parts because they would be overpowered. Doing so will remove quite a big of uniqueness to those heroes. All heroes will be similar, which is a bad thing.

With last hitting and denying in place, we can have heroes that go from extreme to extreme. Extremely bad at last hitting but can become extremely good if they do get the last hits.

Also, denying wasn't a bug. Denying was option even in Warcraft 3. The only bugs about denying where about the moment when you could deny them. Not from 100% but from 50%, tower from 10%. And that changed a bit over the time, but it was never purely a bug.

Last hitting and denying add 2 strategical layer to the game and the time when it's needed the most. Without them, the game loses a part what makes it the game it is. Removing them would make the game less competitive and the early game would be boring to watch. It would also heavily unbalance the support/ganker/carry roles and would merge them in one role where pretty much everyone is similar in those roles.

I understand that you don't like those mechanics, but saying those are idiotic mechanics is an insult to the millions of user that do like it.

Teoes:
Looking at this strip and the comments I feel like such a scrub. Y'all are speaking another language. I'm clearly not a real gamer!

I'm not a real gamer too in that case. Let's hide in our MOBA-proof bunker together, away from such terms as "carry" and "ward".

Presumably, if you actually let two exactly equal minions fight, they'd kill each other at exactly the same time.

Daystar Clarion:
Fucking Noob Void, learn to last hit scrub.

Crystal Maiden, hard carry.

Fucking noob creep. Dafuq use is an aggs without an ult. GG uninstall noob.

rasputin0009:
That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

Last hitting is a necessary by product to offer the possibility of lane control. If it was simply whoever does the most damage you would probably have to push out your creeps after every single wave. Not to mention if this was the scenario it would become very easy for every hero with burst AoE to farm every wave, since they could drop one as soon as the creeps meet and then run back. This would make the entire laning phase boring and stale, as you would see the same 3-5 heroes picked solely for their ability to cast 1 spell then retreat to the tower.

Last hitting also adds a bit of skill to the lane, which IMO is never a bad thing. It takes proper knowledge on your part to see how much damage you deal and when to attack when considering all outside sources of damage. Additionally, it opens up the way for denies (which are their own topic, but add A LOT to the laning phase). Finally though, last hitting can make the lane more active. Because you are required to get a last hit and not just do some damage you are required to be near the creep wave as creeps die and not just hiding under tower. This means that if the enemy is paying attention they have a small window where creep power levels change upon which to capitalize and go in for a kill. If you want to see a hero who really capitalizes from this mechanic, look at Pudge in Dota 2 (a much stronger version of LoL's Blitz). A lot of the players when facing pudge will hide amongst creeps, since his hook will grab the first unit it hits (friendly or not). However, better pudge players will often position themselves so that the dieing creep (the one the enemy is going for) will be between them and the enemy. Then there is a split second after the creep dies and the enemy hasn't hidden in the wave again, where they are out of position and capable of being hooked.

kailus13:

Teoes:
Looking at this strip and the comments I feel like such a scrub. Y'all are speaking another language. I'm clearly not a real gamer!

I'm not a real gamer too in that case. Let's hide in our MOBA-proof bunker together, away from such terms as "carry" and "ward".

Presumably, if you actually let two exactly equal minions fight, they'd kill each other at exactly the same time.

Can't remember how it was in LoL, but in Dota 2 one wave will come out on top (at least initially). I can't remember if anyone has actually tested to see if without any outside influence one team of creeps continuously wins over another, since the games would go hours, but at the start of the game the two don't just meet in the middle and kill each other simultaneously. This is probably due to differences in how hitting works (I think damage is applied over a range), and later terrain bonuses.

I enjoyed that a lot, thanks guys

DOTA is for elite and LOL for fifthly casul ahh..I love the smell of flame war in the morning. Joke asides, as a gamer who played dota 1 thoroughly, I think last hit is, indeed, one of the most important skill; arguably next to lane control and deny.

Remus:
Those rules actually harken back to about every MMO ever, 5 years ago. MMOs now have evolved a bit in their loot distribution thankfully so "last hit" only applies to MOBAs, where I'm sure the intent is to make them more competitive. Griefing is just another aspect of competition after all.

It does make it more hardcore. Take for example DOTA 2, in which you can kill your own creeps and basically "deny" the enemy the coin. This is a tactic used by the high-end players to starve the enemy lane and get a stronger push for mid to late game.

And yes, this is DOTA 2, although the characters do look similar to Ash and either Kah'Zix or Nocturne of LoL. But, seeing as how LoL only came out after the original DoTA (and had developers who worked on the original DOTA), I see no surprise in that.

+1 "This joke had to be explained to me."

Someone's gonna have a real good day when they kill that melee creep. Creep is too squishy for rapier.

The only reason I got this joke is because I read Nerf Now, and I only started reading that because TF2.

rasputin0009:
That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

I agree; it's really stupid how they use game mechanics to promote a need for tactics, timing and understanding of whats going on around the character. Totally unnecessary, especially since it rewards skilled players, who are clearly not the target audience in a gaming genre that is in the process of turning into sport.

Double A:
The only reason I got this joke is because I read Nerf Now, and I only started reading that because TF2.

Yeah that's why I got into nerfnow too, sadly enough all the LOL/Dota jokes flies over my head and I have to get my friends that play those games explain the jokes to me.

This thread, hahahaha... The incredulity over last-hitting being a thing is particularly good. The annoyance with denial is typical of the LoL crowd and just makes me roll my eyes- guess we'll agree to disagree.

The absolutely hilarious thread it created aside, I did actually like the comic guys!

Daystar Clarion:
horrifying snip

you ... changed it o.0 what madness is this ...

Nicolaus99:
+1 "This joke had to be explained to me."

also ^ this. Don't play Moda's so yeah, missed it part where it was funny till it was explained

NightHawk21:

kailus13:

Teoes:
Looking at this strip and the comments I feel like such a scrub. Y'all are speaking another language. I'm clearly not a real gamer!

I'm not a real gamer too in that case. Let's hide in our MOBA-proof bunker together, away from such terms as "carry" and "ward".

Presumably, if you actually let two exactly equal minions fight, they'd kill each other at exactly the same time.

Can't remember how it was in LoL, but in Dota 2 one wave will come out on top (at least initially). I can't remember if anyone has actually tested to see if without any outside influence one team of creeps continuously wins over another, since the games would go hours, but at the start of the game the two don't just meet in the middle and kill each other simultaneously. This is probably due to differences in how hitting works (I think damage is applied over a range), and later terrain bonuses.

All attacks have RNG. For Dota 2, melee creeps hit between 19-23 and the ranged creep 21-26. So the lucky side will have a creep left over (it's never the same side, it all depends on RNG). That will lead to momentum for that side (that left over creep will get some damage on the next enemy wave putting that at a disadvantage when meeting the next wave and the momentum continues to build). Eventually the creeps meet a tower and that will reverse the momentum.

If no heroes ever enter the lane the creeps will eventually take towers. It takes a really long time, but the creeps don't just continually meet up and die at the same time.

To the topic at hand, last hitting and denying are important tactics which can lead to more advanced tactics such as lane control, not just denying the other team gold and exp. If it's not for you, ok, don't play the game. Yet I personally think it adds complexity and differentiates the skill between players. Without them the early game would be pretty stupid and pointless.

>Make comic about game
People complain that they don't understand game
>Make comic not about game
People complain about lack of game comics
>Make comic about game everyone knows
People complain about lack of originality

It was a good comic, though.

BiH-Kira:

UltimatheChosen:

BiH-Kira:

Proper last hitting takes skill, just auto attacking doesn't.

The fact that something takes skill does not mean it adds to the gameplay. It would also take skill if you were required to run a partial circle of exactly 270 degrees around every enemy before they could die, but it still wouldn't be good design.

BiH-Kira:
Also, without the need to last hit, denying wouldn't have any purpose.
As it is now, denying will deny the enemy 100% of the gold they could have gotten and 50-75% of the experience.

Denying is also an idiotic game mechanic. It should have been nixed when the bug that allowed it first popped up back in DotA, rather than becoming a supported part of the core gameplay.

Okay, lets say we remove last hitting and denying.
What is actually left for early game to do?

What is the option to prevent an enemy carry from getting fed?

Removing those elements won't add anything useful to the game. It will only make the slow early game even slower.
Some heroes have slow projectiles and long attack animations because that balances them out. They have other strong skills.

If we removed that aspect, IceForg would have to nerf those strong parts because they would be overpowered. Doing so will remove quite a big of uniqueness to those heroes. All heroes will be similar, which is a bad thing.

With last hitting and denying in place, we can have heroes that go from extreme to extreme. Extremely bad at last hitting but can become extremely good if they do get the last hits.

Also, denying wasn't a bug. Denying was option even in Warcraft 3. The only bugs about denying where about the moment when you could deny them. Not from 100% but from 50%, tower from 10%. And that changed a bit over the time, but it was never purely a bug.

Last hitting and denying add 2 strategical layer to the game and the time when it's needed the most. Without them, the game loses a part what makes it the game it is. Removing them would make the game less competitive and the early game would be boring to watch. It would also heavily unbalance the support/ganker/carry roles and would merge them in one role where pretty much everyone is similar in those roles.

I understand that you don't like those mechanics, but saying those are idiotic mechanics is an insult to the millions of user that do like it.

I didn't say that removing them entirely wouldn't cause balance issues. In any game, if a core mechanic is fundamentally flawed, it takes a lot of redesign to fix things. But saying "oh, you'd need to change other stuff as well" doesn't mean that the original decision was good.

UltimatheChosen:

BiH-Kira:
-snip-

I didn't say that removing them entirely wouldn't cause balance issues. In any game, if a core mechanic is fundamentally flawed, it takes a lot of redesign to fix things. But saying "oh, you'd need to change other stuff as well" doesn't mean that the original decision was good.

Could you elaborate how last hitting and denying are fundamentally flawed mechanics?
I'm really curious about your way of thinking here because I don't see any flaws with them when used in ARTS.

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