No Right Answer: Best Disney Villain Redux

Best Disney Villain Redux

Based on audience feedback from the first go around, Chris and Dan take another crack at baddies from the House of Mouse.

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Err I'm pretty sure the reason why they wouldn't make a live action film based on Frollo is that he gypsy would of find it offensive.

Bah, why did you spit take Dan?! :(

Ranking: Jafar, then Malificent.
Frollo is not on the list, because no one knows him.
And he's not a Disney villain; he's just a stock character from some black pages in human history.

It surprises me that the question of why Malificent [SP] was never invited wasn't brought up, that and the fact that her name is pretty much a combination of "Malicious" and "Malevolent" sort of like Cruella Deville... I mean if you ran into someone with a name like that would you invite them, especially when the person is pretty much an evil wizardess who likes to run around wearing devil horns? The point that she's slighted seems kind of irrelevant, sure that's what drove her over the edge, but it seems pretty obvious something was up here to begin with.

To be honest when it comes to Judge Frollo, I think he's a little too touchy a character, I never would have brought him up in a debate for something like this. Him being evil, which is largely characterized by his hatred of Gypsies which pretty much motivates him through the entire thing, winds up becoming fairly debatable when you consider that his portrayal is one entirely of western first world sentiments. When you look at the reaction Madonna got in Europe years ago when she used Romani entertainers in her act and made a pro-Gypsy message, and some recent issues of Gypsy child theft which are mind boggling when you consider that it supports something everyone here assumed was fake (as in children being raised by Gypsies being found to not be related to them under investigation), he kind of comes too close to reality, and might even be seen as fairly heroic through a lot of the world. A point which would have been disturbing to make but is kind of relevant to the spirit of this discussion, where what Malificent is dead wrong in what she does, and honestly if you make arguments about how petty it was and there being nothing else there, that actually makes it more so. I don't think there is anyone out there that could look at her actions and go "that's pretty reasonable". On the other hand ask one of those guys booing Madonna over the gypsies what they think of Frollo's policies, and honestly they would probably think he was a great guy, and could understand his conflict over getting the hots for a Gypsy.

Do not misunderstand the point there, I guess what I'm saying is that I think Frollo is too loaded a character, and I suspect this is why he's not used in the various Disney villain gatherings, he raises the kinds of questions and real life tensions that Disney is supposed to get you away from. In an absolute sense one could argue that this kind of baggage and the questions it raises combined with the ultimate message about acceptance through the movie makes him a better villain, having a more understandable and believable motive than most, but at the same time it winds up making him a terrible *DISNEY* villain.

In general it seems Hunchback sort of tends to get left out in the cold as far as Disney releases go. Despite the increasingly broad definition of what counts as a Princess you'll notice Esmeralda doesn't get invited to the tea parties just like Frollo doesn't get invited to the villain jamborees. What's more where most Disney movies are at least fairly loyal to the spirit of the modern version of whatever fairy tale, myth, legend or folk story they are based on, "Hunchback Of Notre Dam" is not, that is NOT an upbeat or happy story, and on a lot of levels simply doing a Disney version with an upbeat outcome defeats the entire point, and certainly doesn't make it anywhere near the same story. While okay on it's own, the fact that it's an almost insultingly bad adaption of the source it took the title from probably has something to do with why it kind of sits in a corner by itself away from most of the rest of Disney's work.

Ugh, another long ramble, when I actually didn't intend this to be one. At any rate, those are my thoughts. Due to the Spit-Take victory this does indeed deserve to be a controversial episode though! (as far as No Right Answer can have such a thing given it's spirit).

Didn't you know, Frollo also got kicked out of the Death Watch!

JaceArveduin:
Didn't you know, Frollo also got kicked out of the Death Watch!

I don't know, you'd think he'd be the Inquisitions employee of the month, every month, unless he started assigning exterminatuse's (?) on important worlds for teh lulz.

Old Father Eternity:

JaceArveduin:
Didn't you know, Frollo also got kicked out of the Death Watch!

I don't know, you'd think he'd be the Inquisitions employee of the month, every month, unless he started assigning exterminatuse's (?) on important worlds for teh lulz.

Hey, even evil institutions have limits you know!

One thing Chris didn't mention.
Maleficent does NOT sing.
Hence, Frollo wins.

This episode tickled the dark humor corner of my funny bone.

I also agree with the idea of making Frollo the villain in every Disney movie... even for how short a tenure it may be at times. Lion King especially, dude gets ate about 35 seconds in.

Aptspire:
One thing Chris didn't mention.
Maleficent does NOT sing.
Hence, Frollo wins.

I've gotta agree with this. If you're a right-proper Disney villain, you've gotta be able to belt out tune...a classic Disney Villain Song. Hell, even Gaston had a frickin' song!

That and Hellfire is one of my favorite Disney songs. Like, ever.

Aptspire:
One thing Chris didn't mention.
Maleficent does NOT sing.
Hence, Frollo wins.

One of my favourite Disney songs; we need good evil self-loathing. Also, if Ian McKellen doesn't want to play Frollo, I can see Alan Rickman doing it.

So where is the international follow-up to the candy episode? :P

Neither of these villians is still even remotely close the the evil of the Horned King in the Black Cauldron. The dude doesn't want to stop at just killing Gypsies. He wants to kill ALL LIVING THINGS! With a cauldron that has the soul/essence of basically satan himself infused into it. Maleficent just looks mean and petty next to him, and Frolo just looks like a wanna-be poser.

If the Horned King was at the well after killing the mother, he would have thrown the baby down the well, and them probabbly spear the priest to the wall of Notre Dame. And that would be the tame version of what he would do.

Yozozo:
Neither of these villians is still even remotely close the the evil of the Horned King in the Black Cauldron. The dude doesn't want to stop at just killing Gypsies. He wants to kill ALL LIVING THINGS! With a cauldron that has the soul/essence of basically satan himself infused into it. Maleficent just looks mean and petty next to him, and Frolo just looks like a wanna-be poser.

If the Horned King was at the well after killing the mother, he would have thrown the baby down the well, and them probabbly spear the priest to the wall of Notre Dame. And that would be the tame version of what he would do.

Do you want him to succeed though?

Here's hoping for a Disney villain showdown episode: Jafar vs Frollo.

kailus13:

Yozozo:
Neither of these villians is still even remotely close the the evil of the Horned King in the Black Cauldron. The dude doesn't want to stop at just killing Gypsies. He wants to kill ALL LIVING THINGS! With a cauldron that has the soul/essence of basically satan himself infused into it. Maleficent just looks mean and petty next to him, and Frolo just looks like a wanna-be poser.

If the Horned King was at the well after killing the mother, he would have thrown the baby down the well, and them probabbly spear the priest to the wall of Notre Dame. And that would be the tame version of what he would do.

Do you want him to succeed though?

Here's hoping for a Disney villain showdown episode: Jafar vs Frollo.

Of course not, who would? ;p
And I'm surprised he brought up the argument that people wanted Frollo to succeed... I mean... he's really a monster. At least when I first saw it I was thinking the whole time "I hope that hypocrite burns", and indeed, he did. I *really* don't like hypocrites :)

Yozozo:
I'm surprised he brought up the argument that people wanted Frollo to succeed... I mean... he's really a monster. At least when I first saw it I was thinking the whole time "I hope that hypocrite burns", and indeed, he did. I *really* don't like hypocrites :)

It's pretty much due to characterisation. Or rather lack of characterisation in the heroes. The knight dude in particular is so boring I don't even remember his name. One thing you can't say about Frollo is that he's boring.

Also, fire is fun.

Yozozo:
Neither of these villians is still even remotely close the the evil of the Horned King in the Black Cauldron. The dude doesn't want to stop at just killing Gypsies. He wants to kill ALL LIVING THINGS! With a cauldron that has the soul/essence of basically satan himself infused into it. Maleficent just looks mean and petty next to him, and Frolo just looks like a wanna-be poser.

If the Horned King was at the well after killing the mother, he would have thrown the baby down the well, and them probabbly spear the priest to the wall of Notre Dame. And that would be the tame version of what he would do.

image
The Horned King may not be my favorite Disney villain... but in terms of "pure evil", as well as looking the PART of "pure evil", he's probably my favorite looking villain and my favorite "pure evil" villain. His design is just so cool. Disney didn't have a villain this demonic and powerful since Fantasia's Night on Bald Mountain.

Well done gents. Great redux of the original argument, I too wanted to see this debate! The two most heinous of villains; and, within their bailiwick, unassailable by their fellow villains for sheer menacing character!

Sgt. Sykes:
So where is the international follow-up to the candy episode? :P

We're filming the tasting this Sunday. It may be an "Extra" video, as we'll probably spend the entire time trying to figure out what the heck it is that we're eating. Might be a bag of Slovokian laxatives!

That's what you get for cursing Dan.

Just like Maleficent. In the end, you lose. ;p

Though, I do like Maleficent better. Good show anyway. =w= b

Once again, wrong. The Emperor/Darth Sidious is the best Disney villain. I understand why he did not win though, he's an alien and this video is racist :P

I would watch the goddamn fuck out of "Frolo", starring Ian Mckellan.

Just this morning, by pure coincidence, I was thinking about how Gaston from Beauty and the Beast, of all the villains in major Disney movies, is probably the most unlikeably creepy villain. To use part of a discussion started by Moviebob on Twitter, most Disney villains may be evil, but their goals are usually either aquiring power (political or otherwise) or being bad just for being bad (Maleficent). In BatB, Gaston's motivation is to have Belle all to himself. Because it's Disney, it's never made to be anything more explicit other than Gaston having Belle as basically a trophy. However, the creepy subtext is still undeniable.

This may not make him the best villain, but it sure makes him the most despicable.

Also, on a sort of unrelated note, Esmeralda definitely sent me mixed messages about the general "look" of gypsies.

Also, I would throw in Lotso from Toy Story 3, but maybe that's better saved for a best Pixar villain debate.

Does Darth Vader count as a Disney Villain now? Because if so it's him. (I also like Dr Facilier because voodoo, don't mess with it fools!)

Firefilm:
We're filming the tasting this Sunday. It may be an "Extra" video, as we'll probably spend the entire time trying to figure out what the heck it is that we're eating. Might be a bag of Slovak laxatives!

Heh, laxatives, should have thought of that. But that wouldn't work since AFAIK all the laxatives here are imported. Anyway, fixed your spelling there.

Honorable mentions to Chernabog and The Horned King for being pure evil... Also this:

Great use of captions in the pictures! Dan had me laughing all the way through his description of Frollo at the House of Mouse, and that spit-take was epic! Even I can't decide who should have won!

Malifecent has more swagger though, there's a certain class to her that Frolo just does not have. Besides, Frolo loses points from being just another evil religious guy, and we've had enough of those in real life

Am I the only one who noticed that they mistakenly labeled Despicable Me as a Dreamworks film?

They should go ahead and do best Pixar villain at some point. I mean c'mon, there are so many great choices to choose from.

Hopper, Stinky Pete, Randall, Syndrome, O.T.T.O., Charles Muntz, Lotso Huggins, Axlerod, and I mean those are just the ones with real villains, not counting general antagonists like Sid, Skinner, Dr. P. Sherman (or Darla) Anton Ego, Fergus, or Hardscrabble.

And for the record, I think Hades should have been eligible for this contest. I don't know anyone who watched Hercules and didn't like Hades more than the titular character. He's just so much more fun and lively. Yeah he doesn't have a song, but neither does Maleficent

RTR:
Just this morning, by pure coincidence, I was thinking about how Gaston from Beauty and the Beast, of all the villains in major Disney movies, is probably the most unlikeably creepy villain. To use part of a discussion started by Moviebob on Twitter, most Disney villains may be evil, but their goals are usually either aquiring power (political or otherwise) or being bad just for being bad (Maleficent). In BatB, Gaston's motivation is to have Belle all to himself. Because it's Disney, it's never made to be anything more explicit other than Gaston having Belle as basically a trophy. However, the creepy subtext is still undeniable.

This may not make him the best villain, but it sure makes him the most despicable.

I find Moviebob's insights especially interesting in the case of Judge Frollo. His motivations are different from the vast majority of his peers in the House of Mouse. Frollo doesn't want power; he already has power. He's also not being bad for the sake of it because he thinks he's the good guy. Frollo's twisted moral compass is what makes him such a compelling villain to me. And his position on the gypsies in the movie isn't completely indefensible. The Court of Miracles (a large gypsy community) counts among its members thieves, murderers, smugglers, and fraudulent beggars. In a different movie, Clopin (the gypsy ringleader) could easily have been a villain in his own right.

Speaking more abstractly, Frollo represents a lot of real-world issues including bigotry, zealotry, autocracy, and the acceptable use of force. He also contrasts quite well with the Archdeacon and Quasimodo with regards to religion. While the Archdeacon advocates mercy and sanctuary and Quasimodo sees even unrequited love as a miracle, Frollo's faith comes primarily from fear of damnation.

Maybe he's just too real to be a classic Disney villain, but I love him as a nontraditional one, and I'd love it if in the future they'd experiment with villains more like him.

Maleficent was the master mind behind all evil things in Kingdom Hearts

Point 1 for Maleficent

Darth Vader: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father."

Luke: He told me enough. He told me you killed him!

Vader: I am your father.

Luke: No!!!

Frolo: Damned Jedi...*throws them both down pit*

...Yeah, that's the image I get after this episode.

 

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