The Big Picture: Blecch, Dull Tests

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I have to see Bikini Car Wash now, clearly if it pasts the test it must be good....right?

Mad props this episode Bob.

Moviebob, putting the portions, in proportion! Yes you may now use that as your slogan.

To the topic, I consume a lot of reading in a single year. Lots of it involves combat. My favorite female characters only have to pass one test: Do they act courageously early on or in time for the conclusion of their narrative arc when shit hits the fan? In other words, are they french bread? Tough on the outside, soft and lovable on the inside? Yes? Then I'm all in.

That is all a female character has to do to even the scales, because even at their worst male heroes also go through cowardly and downer phases in dramatic arcs too. What matters in the end to me is, is the spread of characters encompassing all spectrums of the personality rainbow?

The Dubya:

Gronk:
Sarah Connor is a male power fantasy with boobs.

Yes, the ordinary 19 year old waitress from L.A. turned loosely hinged PSTD psychopath that's barely hanging on to her humanity by a thread due to A) the nightmare experience of being chased down by a ruthless Terminator and B) having the knowledge of the world ending, with YOUR OWN SON (beared from some time-traveling dude you just met no less) being the only person that will be able to do anything about it.

Oh yeah, what a hawt fantasy alright.

The rest is quite frankly bizarre nitpicking, but I really had to call that particular one out. I mean if you were going to pick someone to pick on like that, at least pick Buffy or somebody, not Sarah freakin' Connor out of all characters.

That's just the problem, dudes think that a female character is well written if she can shoot guns and kick ass. And you totally miss the fact that these characters are consdered equal only because they have what is otherwise considered to be MALE traits (aggressiveness, vengefulness etc). The problem that the Bechdel test is pointing to is that the women are usually only there to support the male characters, instead of the film actually being about them, as women. Arnold is the star of Terminator 2, Sarah Connor is a supporting character. That asian girl from Pacific rim is a support character, you know why? Because she is almost never seen on screen by her self, she is almost always shown with male characters. Is she ever seen doing anything except allowing the main character/s to look stronger? This is not Nitpicking, start analyzing the movie with your head instead of your lower brain and you'll see what I mean.

So bottom line:
http://www.reelgood.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tuesday-kiki-ref.jpg = Well written female MAIN character.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Terma3.jpg = Dude with boobs.

Edit: Oh, and by the way bob, the title of this article is the kind juvinile argumentation that only strengthens my opinion of you as a juvinile person. Seriously? You want to take a serious issue and treat it like you're a second grader? Way to go, MovieHog!

Gronk:

The Dubya:

Gronk:
Sarah Connor is a male power fantasy with boobs.

Yes, the ordinary 19 year old waitress from L.A. turned loosely hinged PSTD psychopath that's barely hanging on to her humanity by a thread due to A) the nightmare experience of being chased down by a ruthless Terminator and B) having the knowledge of the world ending, with YOUR OWN SON (beared from some time-traveling dude you just met no less) being the only person that will be able to do anything about it.

Oh yeah, what a hawt fantasy alright.

The rest is quite frankly bizarre nitpicking, but I really had to call that particular one out. I mean if you were going to pick someone to pick on like that, at least pick Buffy or somebody, not Sarah freakin' Connor out of all characters.

That's just the problem, dudes think that a female character is well written if she can shoot guns and kick ass. And you totally miss the fact that these characters are consdered equal only because they have what is otherwise considered to be MALE traits (aggressiveness, vengefulness etc). The problem that the Bechdel test is pointing to is that the women are usually only there to support the male characters, instead of the film actually being about them, as women. Arnold is the star of Terminator 2, Sarah Connor is a supporting character. That asian girl from Pacific rim is a support character, you know why? Because she is almost never seen on screen by her self, she is almost always shown with male characters. Is she ever seen doing anything except allowing the main character/s to look stronger? This is not Nitpicking, start analyzing the movie with your head instead of your lower brain and you'll see what I mean.

So bottom line:
http://www.reelgood.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tuesday-kiki-ref.jpg = Well written female MAIN character.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Terma3.jpg = Dude with boobs.

Edit: Oh, and by the way bob, the title of this article is the kind juvinile argumentation that only strengthens my opinion of you as a juvinile person. Seriously? You want to take a serious issue and treat it like you're a second grader? Way to go, MovieHog!

Uhm... So let me get this straight.

Feminists, are looking for equality, both in the world, and in media.

So when we as men, view a woman kicking serious ass in a movie, and you then call a woman just a man with boobs, let me ask you a question? Do you understand the word equality? Equal? On equivalent ground?

By God yes! If we put a woman as a main cast character in an action movie we are going to have her do actiony things.

And during the scenes not action related, they may show paternal instincts, or maybe the woman will go full on many and just be sheer macho and punch people in the face to snap them out of it instead of trying to talk to them and calm them down. Who knows. But if she did it would be showing that she can do just as badass as a man.

But what I do know, is that if feminists want equal representation, stuff like what you spout is going to need to either stop, or this want of equality, can't happen. A woman in an action movie is going to do action things, if she isn't then that is NOT equality or equal representation.

The idea of feminist ideals is that woman can do things that men do. In an action movie, a woman needs to do things that men do or it is not equality.

Are you truly that ignorant?

...Dammit. He actually got one dead right.

Alright Mr. Chipman. You're off the banlist again.
For now.

The Bechdel Rating is something that just made me want to give up on film in general, because it's just so goddamn asinine.
(Not the Bechdel Test, the Bechdel RATING)

SKBPinkie:
Repeat a joke often enough, and it becomes fact.

Which is also why memes are mostly dumb.

THANK FUCKING GOD; SOMEONE ELSE WHO RECOGNIZES THAT.
I legitimately did not think anyone else who thought that existed on the Internet.

You get a cookie. What kind do you want?

I dunno, I think Mako (along with the rest of Pacific Rim) was entirely forgettable and overblown.

For the first half of the film, they couldn't decide if they were gonna have her fuck the guy or not. All those long extended looks, acting like a little girl with a crush, and then the whole bedroom "Will they or won't they" knock on each other's doors scene.

Just cause she didn't wear skimpy clothes doesn't mean she was a good character

Atmos Duality:

SKBPinkie:
Repeat a joke often enough, and it becomes fact.

Which is also why memes are mostly dumb.

THANK FUCKING GOD; SOMEONE ELSE WHO RECOGNIZES THAT.
I legitimately did not think anyone else who thought that existed on the Internet.

You get a cookie. What kind do you want?

Chocolate chip / macadamia nut pls.

OT: I really liked Mako in Pacific Rim. Although to be fair, I feel like her character stood out as well-written when compared to how insane the rest of the movie was.

On a related note, what's with the people who say that the movie was bad because it was dumb? Of course it was dumb, but that doesn't mean it was bad. The whole point of that movie was to turn your brain off and enjoy the action. It was basically the movie that Transformers was supposed to be.

SKBPinkie:

Chocolate chip / macadamia nut pls.

OT: I really liked Mako in Pacific Rim. Although to be fair, I feel like her character stood out as well-written when compared to how insane the rest of the movie was.

On a related note, what's with the people who say that the movie was bad because it was dumb? Of course it was dumb, but that doesn't mean it was bad. The whole point of that movie was to turn your brain off and enjoy the action. It was basically the movie that Transformers was supposed to be.

There are spectrums within spectrums of "Good/Bad"
Crank and Transformers are both "Mindless" action flicks. But one of them is "Stupidly Ridiculous" while the other "Insultingly Stupid".

(all according to taste)

That, more than anything, is what distinguishes between "funny" and "offensive".
Of course, the Bechdel Test cannot accomplish this at all; which is kind of the problem with relying on it.

SnakeTrousers:

Captain Pooptits:

SnakeTrousers:

... enlistment was restricted to men until fairly recently (and still is in much of the world).

Because they make better killers.

The point you seem to be getting at (with this and the rest of your earlier post) is that sexism, by and large, only exists because it is in fact correct. I wonder, do you apply this philosophy to all questions of social justice or just those involving women?

In either case, I don't think there's much for us to talk about.

Bwahahaha that's what you got out of it? lol

Captain Pooptits:
Bwahahaha that's what you got out of it? lol

^Not making a convincing case otherwise^

ultreos2:

The idea of feminist ideals is that woman can do things that men do. In an action movie, a woman needs to do things that men do or it is not equality.

Wow. Just.. wow. I really hate to rain on your parade, dude, but that is NOT the goal of feminism - "that women can do what men does". The goal of feminism is that what women do, should be valued equal to what men do. Women i know do not want to become men, they want to have equal pay for equal work, they want to be considered equal, but not by becoming men. This is exactly the problem discussing equality with "Dudes". They think women want to become men, which is not true.

Women i know want to keep being women, and doing what is typically "women" stuff, you know working with what they work with and having babies and stuff. What they DO want is for occupations and traits that are typically considered "female", such as being emotional and caring to be considered equal to those jobs and traits that are usually considered "male", such as being dominant, aggressive and physically strong. This would be true equality, not having to conform to male ideals but having their own being respected as just as valid.

This is the problem with women in male dominated situations, in order to be considered equal, they have to turn into men. In an equal movie, women get to do women stuff and not have the movie treat this as less important than what the guys do. This is what i mean when i say that guys only think women are well written if they can kick ass, because in most films for guys, violence and aggressiveness is considered to be the best way to solve conflict or handle just about any situation. Not to be caring or emotional, but to shoot stuff.

And seriously. The Bechdel test is a joke. A joke that points out an interesting trend in movies, nothing more. But it's amazing how many people get really defensive because someone just said "hey, you ever realized your favourite movie has some issues from a feminist standpoint"? Everywhere people get defensive and juvinile. That says tons more than the joke i think.

Last year, The Gutters did a two part comic, one part of which illustrated (satirically) the Bechdel Test as it applies to comic books.
Worth a look to add to the conversation I suppose... but when it comes down to it the "test" just seems a narrowly subjective standard by which to measure a value-set one may hold important, but doesn't really do anything to discredit any form of media that specifically fails the test on that merit alone. As some have noted it simply doesn't account for variations on themes that empower women but fail the test regardless. The Bechdel Test =/= The Ultimate Barometer of Female Marginalization. It's simply one potential guide and it has its flaws.

Here's that comic if you want a look:
http://www.the-gutters.com/comic/rock-em-sock-em/
&
http://www.the-gutters.com/comic/423-salgood-sam/
(Might want to read the blog too for additional context)

The majority of feminist theory in accordance with media has two parts "Yes" and "But".
"The movie is good, yes" "But, the female protagonist had no reason whatsoever to be sidelined during that fight" (Pacific Rim)
"The game is excellent, yes" "But, why is the female character basically the only one without any characterization or character arc, she is literally just there to be rescued" (Deus Ex: Human Revolution)

Criticism does not mean that the subject is bad or unsuitable. But then, the internet has always had problems with understanding that.

This is probably the best Big Picture episode I've seen to date. I began noticing the fallacies of the test years ago when someone showed me the realization that, technically, the original Star Wars trilogy fails the Bechdel test whereas the Prequels do not. Explaining the history of the test and pointing out that its real purpose is to draw eyes upon the failings of the Hollywood industry and not the failings of the individual film truly gives you full rights to call this show "the Big Picture".

Gronk:

ultreos2:

The idea of feminist ideals is that woman can do things that men do. In an action movie, a woman needs to do things that men do or it is not equality.

Wow. Just.. wow. I really hate to rain on your parade, dude, but that is NOT the goal of feminism - "that women can do what men does". The goal of feminism is that what women do, should be valued equal to what men do. Women i know do not want to become men, they want to have equal pay for equal work, they want to be considered equal, but not by becoming men. This is exactly the problem discussing equality with "Dudes". They think women want to become men, which is not true.

Women i know want to keep being women, and doing what is typically "women" stuff, you know working with what they work with and having babies and stuff. What they DO want is for occupations and traits that are typically considered "female", such as being emotional and caring to be considered equal to those jobs and traits that are usually considered "male", such as being dominant, aggressive and physically strong. This would be true equality, not having to conform to male ideals but having their own being respected as just as valid.

This is the problem with women in male dominated situations, in order to be considered equal, they have to turn into men. In an equal movie, women get to do women stuff and not have the movie treat this as less important than what the guys do. This is what i mean when i say that guys only think women are well written if they can kick ass, because in most films for guys, violence and aggressiveness is considered to be the best way to solve conflict or handle just about any situation. Not to be caring or emotional, but to shoot stuff.

And seriously. The Bechdel test is a joke. A joke that points out an interesting trend in movies, nothing more. But it's amazing how many people get really defensive because someone just said "hey, you ever realized your favourite movie has some issues from a feminist standpoint"? Everywhere people get defensive and juvinile. That says tons more than the joke i think.

Okay seriously dude? That's not the point of feminism either. The point of feminism is that women are not inherently feminine and good at feminine things and men are not inherently masculine and enjoy masculine things. Every gender can enjoy the types of careers and hobbies that they want to. A woman can be a stay at home mom or a soldier or heck even a soldier that's also a mom. A man can be a mechanic or a dancer or both. That is the point of feminism.

The point of action movies is that people are usually fighting and doing action in them. What do you expect a female action movie star to do? Not get involved with the action?

shellshock3d:

Gronk:

ultreos2:

The idea of feminist ideals is that woman can do things that men do. In an action movie, a woman needs to do things that men do or it is not equality.

Wow. Just.. wow. I really hate to rain on your parade, dude, but that is NOT the goal of feminism - "that women can do what men does". The goal of feminism is that what women do, should be valued equal to what men do. Women i know do not want to become men, they want to have equal pay for equal work, they want to be considered equal, but not by becoming men. This is exactly the problem discussing equality with "Dudes". They think women want to become men, which is not true.

Women i know want to keep being women, and doing what is typically "women" stuff, you know working with what they work with and having babies and stuff. What they DO want is for occupations and traits that are typically considered "female", such as being emotional and caring to be considered equal to those jobs and traits that are usually considered "male", such as being dominant, aggressive and physically strong. This would be true equality, not having to conform to male ideals but having their own being respected as just as valid.

This is the problem with women in male dominated situations, in order to be considered equal, they have to turn into men. In an equal movie, women get to do women stuff and not have the movie treat this as less important than what the guys do. This is what i mean when i say that guys only think women are well written if they can kick ass, because in most films for guys, violence and aggressiveness is considered to be the best way to solve conflict or handle just about any situation. Not to be caring or emotional, but to shoot stuff.

And seriously. The Bechdel test is a joke. A joke that points out an interesting trend in movies, nothing more. But it's amazing how many people get really defensive because someone just said "hey, you ever realized your favourite movie has some issues from a feminist standpoint"? Everywhere people get defensive and juvinile. That says tons more than the joke i think.

Okay seriously dude? That's not the point of feminism either. The point of feminism is that women are not inherently feminine and good at feminine things and men are not inherently masculine and enjoy masculine things. Every gender can enjoy the types of careers and hobbies that they want to. A woman can be a stay at home mom or a soldier or heck even a soldier that's also a mom. A man can be a mechanic or a dancer or both. That is the point of feminism.

The point of action movies is that people are usually fighting and doing action in them. What do you expect a female action movie star to do? Not get involved with the action?

Yeah, Gronk seems to be a bit misguided with his interpretation of feminism. What does he expect a female action hero to do? It's probably thanks to such movies and other media that women are now being considered as soldiers on the front lines rather than just accessory roles.

Moeez:

Yeah, Gronk seems to be a bit misguided with his interpretation of feminism. What does he expect a female action hero to do? It's probably thanks to such movies and other media that women are now being considered as soldiers on the front lines rather than just accessory roles.

I...highly doubt that, actually. Entertainment is a reflection of societal developments, not their cause. Sure, there's a bit of mutual dependence between the two, but entertainment follows the changes, the way I see it.

I would just like to point out that Metroid: Other M passes the Bechdel with flying colors. That alone should end an argument.

Darth_Payn:

As for Swedish movie theaters showing individual movies' Bechdel ratings, I'd like to hear from an actual Swedish person about that.

Badly translated swedish news article about the Bechdel rated movie theatres: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http://www.gp.se/kulturnoje/1.2134817-bio-roy-infor-a-markning-av-filmer&sandbox=0

It's amazing people don't get this. See if this helps if you simply can't get in the mindset of women. Lets say you are a guy with some homosexual flair, not gay but you like things everyone else decides are "gay". You are straight though, your struggle here is to be considered a man by men and women while doing things they find unmanly. So you have inherent acts that are later colored with the taint of gender, that you struggle to express while also not being misunderstood by everyone as a "type" of behavior and reduced to a stereotype. Say hello to women.

Women can do whatever, and that is them being a woman, maybe they are channeling a guy, who cares? You are the one who decides that the action is a trope or stereotype. Go to any hardcore comic geek and try telling them that every comic they like is just the heroes journey and you will be besieged with details that create exceptions. Wasn't part of this video pointing out how stupid it is to look for a standard to attribute across the board as a lazy means of stereotype?

EDIT: Also the forum rules required me to refresh and see all the codes of conduct, I hate that anyone can get around it by saying passive and sexist/racist/homophobic garbage. That needs a section.

I'm surprised he didn't mention Frozen in that list.

And you know life is fucking awesome when you have time to worry about bullshit like this over whether a tiger is going to eat your face while you sleep.

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