We're Going to Be Rich!

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Reasons I play Elder Scrolls: it has no multiplayer part and it's got a world to independently explore. Reasons I might play the new mmo:

PainInTheAssInternet:
...we came in?

I didn't realize that The Old Republic was still relevant.

Oh wait, this is ESO, right? Or was it AOR? Or TOR? Or was it GW2? How many acronyms will there be?

I wonder how much of the decision to make a MMO stems from overenthusiastic designers and how much of it stems from CEOs/managers trying to get a (bad) shot at super-riches.

this is weird i was playing Game Dev Tycoon earlier today and built an MMO that drove my company into the ground the bloody thing sucked a billion dollars out of my account and sent me bankrupt before i could say what i then get on the escapist and there is an article about MMO's killing Game devs

I played the last beta and quite liked it. I am eager to play next weekend so i can test if the first allure can be kept.
It is one of the best looking MMOs I've seen so far, the atmosphere is great. I have no idea which standards you guys use to deem the graphics bad. And of course its not a Skyrim experience. Whoever expected that is just inexperienced with MMOs or plain stupid. But its pretty damn close.
Admittedly, i haven't done too many quests but so far they seem ok.
I am a huge fan of Oblivion and Skyrim and, at the moment, play the latter one with its huge amount of mods. I also like MMOs. I played WoW for years and I even enjoyed SWTOR for some time.
I really hope that zenimax won't screw this up.
And again, for every person who sits in his chair, writing something negative about the game there are more people NOT saying anything and playing the game.
Last but not least: If i buy ESO for 60 bucks, play it intensively for a month, i already got more playtime out of it than most other games. If i play it for 3 or 4 months, like i did with SWTOR, maybe ill be disappointed that its not fun anymore. But i enjoyed it so far....

Every second sentence in an MMO discussion is how "wow won't be repeated" but yet you expect every new MMO to BE WoW. And if its not, "well f you world, im gonna quit in a big raging post on the official forums!"
Yes we have been burned too many times without question. As customers we deserve better quality. No on disc dlc, no day one patches. But apart from money grabbing publishers, having customers is the second worst thing that can happen to a game developer.

Also, yay Wildstar!

edit: Also, the License Agreement of Skyrim does NOT require you to actually buy ESO, you know that? There are MMO players, Single RPG Players and Elder Scrolls Fans. Make a Venn Diagramm out of it. With some luck, the middle will be big enough.
Imagine Uncle Sam saying: YOUR MMO.. does not actually need every one of you to be financially successful and enjoyable to the people who play it...

Somewhere across town, few skilled and passionate people are stunned: They stopped making "Age of Dragon Sword" singleplayer? They do the math and realize that if they will be smart about it, with low budget they can make something that will fill a hole after "Age of Dragon Sword". Since money involved would be reasonable this is risk worth taking.

wulfgar_red:
Somewhere across town, few skilled and passionate people are stunned: They stopped making "Age of Dragon Sword" singleplayer? They do the math and realize that if they will be smart about it, with low budget they can make something that will fill a hole after "Age of Dragon Sword". Since money involved would be reasonable this is risk worth taking.

I like this.

I guess I fall into the category of 'fans they pissed off' when they announced TOR, and then said it was supposed to be KOTOR 3, 4, 5, ect.

I miss KOTOR, but I feel they've damaged the franchise beyond repair with TOR.

Dr.Awkward:
You know, despite how many developers go after WoW's model when making a MMO, they completely miss other successful concepts such as Minecraft because they don't see it as a MMO.

They would if they stop defining the word "Massive" as "an adjective describing the number of players that play on official servers". Kill the whole of this mindset and replace it with something more financially manageable, and soon we'll be seeing MMOs going in unique places.

Amen. I'd wish more games would explore the vast space that lies in between your small-scale "match-based" multiplayer games on the one end and (theme park) persistent world massively multiplayer games. I have the feeling that it's about to happen though.

Kumagawa Misogi:
The Elder Scrolls Online has nothing to do with Bethesda

There are two problems with this. Firstly, it may be being developed by Zenimax, but it's published and licensed by Bethesda. Think how much blame EA get every time they release a shit game, especially with previously established franchises by developers they've taken over. That's not just blind hate; the publisher can have a huge influence on almost every aspect of a game.

Secondly, who exactly do you think Zenimax are? Hint - they're Bethesda. Zenimax Media is a shell company created by the founder of Bethesda specifically to contain Bethesda, which is its only division. They've since bought up a few other developers, but note that their games are published by Bethesda, not Zenimax. So yes, Zenimax Online Studios is officially a different developer, but it's created and owned by Bethesda in everything other than name.

It wouldn't be true to say TESO has nothing to do with Bethesda even if they were just the publisher, but their involvement actually goes much deeper than that.

Amir Kondori:

I hated it. The quests were stupid, the graphics so-so, the combat bored me.

I believe that description could be applied to Skyrim as well, and maybe the rest of the ES series, but I haven't played anything other than Skyrim and I sure don't intend to.

Very amusing read.
And it was completely predictable. I said an Elder Scrolls MMO would be a disaster as far back as Oblivion; because the MMO format does not lend itself well at all to the Elder Scrolls series.

I could make some cynical snipe at the droves of fans who thought that a TES MMO would be a good idea in spite of everything else, but at the same time I know why they wanted it too. I know the feeling.
If love is blind; fan-love is blinding.

Really Offensive Name:
Don't expect me to drop 200+ hours into a game where I have to play a cat with ape feet. Fuck you. Not sold.

... you have... strangely specific requirements...

*Backs away slowly*

OT:
Not really much to say in response to this. It's true. It's been true. It will continue to be true. WoW was a lucky lightning strike. It came at the right time and evolved the way it needed to. But now that ship is sailing. Any attempts to ape it's success are doomed to fail.

I really wish companies would stop trying. It's not good for the industry.

Oh. I thought this was about The Secret WorldGuild Wars 2NeverwinterThe Old Republic for a second.
No idea why.

While I enjoy your work as always seamus, what strikes me about TESOnline (which is what I assume we're talking about here) is that there is a vocal community of asshats who SQUEALED RELENTLESSLY for "skyerim MMO NAOW." I was long in the camp of people who said "look, you can make an MMO based on TES, but you're not going to like it. It won't have anything TES has, and lets face it. you don't want a TES-based MMO, you want to grief people using TES-skyrim/oblivion ruleset."

Well, a lot of developers surely asked to make an mmo, and make an mmo zenimax are. Fallout was Oblivion with guns, and TesOnline is shaping up to be WoW with Nords.

The community gets what the community wants. Kinda. I predict no one will be happy.

Butterfly:
Oh. I thought this was about The Secret WorldGuild Wars 2NeverwinterThe Old Republic for a second.
No idea why.

dont forget WARHAMMER ONLINE, the game about Orks with a K and humans and undead fighting one another in a fantasy universe and leveling to 80 again.

Interestingly enough, a day after this article gets posted, Final Fantasy 14 is reported to be the biggest thing putting Square Enix back into the black.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-02-05-final-fantasy-14-helps-square-enix-swing-back-to-profit

As someone who is very, very much not a fan of The Elder Scrolls, I'd like if someone could explain to me what makes TES such a bad candidate for being an MMO. My time in Skyrim gave me the impression of an MMO without the things that make MMO's interesting. Then again, I'm not a fan of MMO's either, so I definitely don't know enough to talk about this in detail.

Shamus Young:
We're Going to Be Rich!

Somewhere in one of the many game-dev hubs around the world, a little drama unfolds...

Read Full Article

Omg. This is so much like Planetside 2 right now.

Somewhere in a dark corner of the activision-blizzard headquarters, the executives watches every launch of new MMO since WoW:

image

Amir Kondori:
ESO is going to be the biggest flop yet. I am calling it now. You have a fan base who, for the most part, are die hard single player RPG fans. I got into the beta and let me tell you, if you are not already into MMO's then you will not be into this one.
I hated it. The quests were stupid, the graphics so-so, the combat bored me.
I feel sad for the flop Bethesda is going to have, but hey, at least it will teach them to stick to what they are good at.

I say it wont teach them anything, because they aren't the ones doing it.

The company that owns Bethesda, Zenimax, are the ones doing the MMO. Which would explain why a team of hardcore PvP developers are making such a mess of it.

Your analysis is spot on though. They completely fumbled this by making completely the wrong kind of game for its audience.

I'm in the beta again this weekend but I don't have any real hope for it. This thing would need a total overhaul to make it what it needs to be.

CBanana:
Interestingly enough, a day after this article gets posted, Final Fantasy 14 is reported to be the biggest thing putting Square Enix back into the black.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-02-05-final-fantasy-14-helps-square-enix-swing-back-to-profit

After they have spent the last three years bleeding money in large part because of Final Fantasy XIV and it's many, many travails.

It's going to take them four or five years just to get back to zero, never mind net profit on FFXIV, assuming they can keep the numbers and profitability up that long, the run of the market would be against them there.

Krantos:

Really Offensive Name:
Don't expect me to drop 200+ hours into a game where I have to play a cat with ape feet. Fuck you. Not sold.

... you have... strangely specific requirements...

*Backs away slowly*

OT:
Not really much to say in response to this. It's true. It's been true. It will continue to be true. WoW was a lucky lightning strike. It came at the right time and evolved the way it needed to. But now that ship is sailing. Any attempts to ape it's success are doomed to fail.

I really wish companies would stop trying. It's not good for the industry.

PLEASE LOVE ME! I SWEAR I'M NOT CRAZY!
*ahem*
That's not the sole reason I'm not buying it, I've found that the gameplay in all MMOs I have tried tend to suck.

But lack of beast legs is something I noted when I saw the first trailers, so I'm rolling with it.

SWTOR in a nutshell.

Though if it weren't for that I wouldn't have met my best friend. SWTOR can also claim that it has the nicest community of any MMO ever.

Skipper3:

Shamus Young:
We're Going to Be Rich!

Somewhere in one of the many game-dev hubs around the world, a little drama unfolds...

Read Full Article

Omg. This is so much like Planetside 2 right now.

...it's nothing like Planetside 2.

Seriously, nothing like it. The only thing that is close is people complaining about lack of end game content.

Atmos Duality:
Very amusing read.
And it was completely predictable. I said an Elder Scrolls MMO would be a disaster as far back as Oblivion; because the MMO format does not lend itself well at all to the Elder Scrolls series.

I could make some cynical snipe at the droves of fans who thought that a TES MMO would be a good idea in spite of everything else, but at the same time I know why they wanted it too. I know the feeling.
If love is blind; fan-love is blinding.

No, it could definitely work if it was done right. But isn't being done right and it looks like ****.

RatherDull:

No, it could definitely work if it was done right. But isn't being done right and it looks like ****.

TES: A series that prides itself on its single player immersive experiences.
By going MMO, the only way it could potentially work is if Bethesda adopts the sandbox MMO model; something akin to Star Wars Galaxies. In short, it just isn't going to happen anymore. No AAA company wants to fund sandbox MMOs now; not while WoW is still printing money.

Apart from that, there is absolutely no way a WoW like MMO could work, because it's basically the complete opposite of TES's regular gameplay. Bethesda would have to discard all of their game's strengths.

Publishers never seem to realise that WOW and COD aren't the rule, they are the exception...

I actually got into the beta for ESO before the last beta weekend. the game didnt phase me and I was underwhelmed coming from playing skyrim just before.
it feels clunky and really didnt phase me, even GW2 beta was way better...
But I will give it another chance this weekend again.
So far no MMORPG could hold up with what WoW delovers and thats really sad.

(also, the races totally dont work in ESO, they dont look right and most come in 50 shades of ugly)

We have a saying here in Sweden. "Smaken är som baken" (lit. Taste is like (a/your) butt) It basically means that tastes differ, and preferrances and values is a very personal thing. Evaluations based of preference are never universal. I wish people would remember that a bit more.

Sure, TES games has always been very free, very single-player oriented experiences, and making an MMO addition to the franchise sure was an unconvetial move. I find thinking of TESO as a spin-off game rather than an official entry in the main series to be much easier on my poor mind.

Now, different people have different priorities and preferences when it comes to TES games. Me, I'm a lore nut. My prime source of worry when it came to TESO was that they would not stay true to the established canon. The small trivia. The smaller, more obscure Khajiiti factions. The old races of the Black Marsh. Things like that.

After playing in the last beta, some of those fears were placated. Sure, I didn't go very far and only played as a Khajiit, but the moment I found out that the guys I had just helped in a side-quest were part of the flippin' Ahzirr Traajijazeri, well, I had a rather lengthy fangirl squealing fit.

...I tend to obsess about the beast races. A lot.

Anyway, when it comes to the main story, as far as I played, I have to admit I was positively surprised. It starts off quickly and I have to admit I found myself more engaged in it than I did in Skyrim, albeit not by a great margin. Like I said, Lore Nut. I easily get absorbed in the story.

Art-wise, not bad. Not as grey and gritty as previous installations, and I like colour. Sure, it might be a bit more simplistic than Skyrim, but that's a matter of resource management. TESO is a big game. A really big game. One can't expect massive, in-depth visual detail from an MMO. There are people who are making these models. Human people. Me, I find it appealing. Perhaps not as appealing as the Grove in GW2, but that's like the most beautiful place ever. Because plant people.

Flower-power, yeah!

Ehrm... So, back to TESO.
Combat-wise, well... It plays like an MMO, except more like a TES game. It's an odd mix, but it works, and the combat never was the strong point of the TES franchise in the first place, so I'm willing to forgive a relatively sub-par combat system, as long as I get my treasure trove of trivia. If I wanted engaging combat, I wouldn't go to an Elder Scrolls game anyway. Personally, i do not mind MMO-style combat, and do not find the TESO version detrimental to the experience. Bottom line, It's not perfect, but in my opinion it definitely plays better than Skyrim or Morrowind's combat system.

In conclusion, I find TESO flawed. Like every dev team, Zenimax are only human, and I try to keep that in mind, and so should you. Humans are flawed. That is a fact of life.
However, I still find TESO very much enjoyable, and I'm looking forward to the beta this weekend. It's not perfect, nothing is, and I can think of a dozen things they should have done differently, but I still consider buying it. Because I find the game fun to play and the world interesting enough to dig for my treasured trivia in, and for me, that is enough to give it a chance.

Well, as soon as they drop or at least lessen the subscription fee, I mean for the love of Mara... ._.

I'd imagine "We're only human...forgive our terrible game" wont wash with publishers or buyers. It never has before and nor should it.

Darkcerb:
I'd imagine "We're only human...forgive our terrible game" wont wash with publishers or buyers. It never has before and nor should it.

If that's meant as a reply to my post, I apologise if it came across like that. I'm just trying to say that no-one is perfect, and that applies to game devs as well, so expecting perfection is nothing short of delusional. Imperfect is fine. Terrible is not fine.

However, I do not find the game ESO terrible. In fact, I find it very much enjoyable. Flawed, but enjoyable. Now their policies on the other hand, that is an entierly different matter. Imperial edition and the Explorer pack is plain bull feces.

I'm just saying. You shouldn't completely dismiss a game just because they're trying something different than usual. You might be pleasantly surprised.

But again, it's all a matter of taste, but that doesn't mean that people should look down on others because they enjoy a game that you do not.

Edit: I do not mean this in an accusatory sense. This is just something that everyone should keep in mind. Bashing someone for liking a game is even more bull than Imperial edition, and those who do should be ashamed.

themilo504:
I don't know enough about elder scrolls online to know if this is what's happening, but it would not surprise me if it was.

I do think that a elder scrolls mmo could work if it actually played like elder scrolls.

Elder Scrolls online is amazing, all I'm going to say about that.

The question is whether or not it being amazing matters. Have there been other non-WoW MMOs that were also "amazing"? Or were all these failures more mediocre attempts to unseat the king or simply not good enough? I thought the Star Wars MMO was quite good. The game cost somewhere around $150 to $200 million to make. It rose to 1.7 million in February 2012 but that started to taper off in a few months. In May it fell to 1.3 million and fell beneath 1 million in July. Every month at over 1 million is more than $15 million (the 1.7 million users being a $25.5 million month). That doesn't include the sale of the game. Then, in 2013 under the free to play model, they estimate that they made $139 million in revenue (in game purchases?) and they still have some subscription income that isn't included in that number.

So this is one of the most profitable games of 2013 and appears to already be well in the black depending on what their expenses are.

So maybe it isn't gangbusters like WoW but this is still a profitable business model. I will be a subscriber for the Elder Scrolls though, at least for a few months.

Read the article a half-dozen times, still can't figure out if its supposed to be a general analysis of the industry or taking potshots at someone specific.

Hiramas:
Whoever expected that is just inexperienced with MMOs or plain stupid.

You're absolutely right about an mmo not being able to reasonable live up to Skyrim. Which is exactly the problem I and others have with it; I don't want an mmo that, limited by its format, can only achieve a percentage of what its single-player predecessors did. I want an improved Skyrim sequel. As you also said, I'm not obligated to play it just because I play Skyrim, but that's also sidestepping why people like me are angry at ESO being developed: there's only so much investment money to go around, and it went to an MMO instead of another single-player experience. It would be tolerable if there was actually competition out there, but there isn't; it's incredibly frustrating when there are no experiences on par with Skyrim being released or developed recently, of which a large reason is because every company and their mothers are jumping on the mmo bandwagon instead.

weirdguy:
somewhere, rhode island is shaking its fist at the sky

Probably somewhere in Rhode Island

octafish:
Publishers never seem to realise that WOW and COD aren't the rule, they are the exception...

My father doesn't even realize that COD and WOW are different types of games. He's like "They're both war games, rigtht?

Jhonie:
...I tend to obsess about the beast races. A lot.

Then how did you react on the (presumed) fact that the legs for Khajiit are not beast-like in TESO?

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