No Right Answer: Is Game of Thrones Overrated?

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Is Game of Thrones Overrated?

Chris lays the smack-down on Game of Thrones and you're not just going to sit there and take it, are you? Post your rebuttals so Kyle has ammunition to put Chris in his place!

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I completely agree with the structure issues. Now excuse me while I sit back with popcorn and watch Fanboy heads explode like firework on the 4th of Joo-Lye! Upon close examination, I think I have gotten the most enjoyment from the casting. I love being able to point at an actor, announce his character's name, and almost always have it be spot on.

Your argument is pretty rock solid there Chris, I don't even have anything to say in the show's defense, damn.

I've never understood the popularity of the show. I've managed to sit through the first three or four episodes and i just can't bring myself to endure anymore. The story seems, to me, ridiculous with a focus on too many characters that seem to have nothing to do with one another; as for the sex scenes, while interesting at first, they serve no purpose and are just a mindless distraction (which seems to be the one thing keeping some of my mates coming back to the show).

I can understand that the show may deal with some interesting things but the way the fantasy/drama theme thing (what is this show actually about) is introduced is just confusing, and kinda left me bored.

That's my nonsense rant out of the way, I'm going to go and hide in the corner now before the fans jump on me.

Chris is wrong and a Hipster.

More detailed response. Chris can't handle complexity "Is it drama? is it political intrigue? oh wait dragons I SO CONFOOSED"

Also, you can't keep up with the character names? Boo hoo for you, I have this remarkable ability called "paying attention". Can you name all the characters from The Wire? I doubt it.

I suppose one point I can concede is that GoT does have too much sex and some of it feels just added for the sake of it.

Someone make Chris watch Game of Thrones again as punishment for his hubris

I can only speak for the quality of the books which are pretty good. As for the show, the reason I never got into it is because I don't have HBO and I already have plenty of television shows to watch on netflix. That said, I would like to give it a shot, but it just isn't worth the price tag. Now I'm going to sit back and relax while everyone who believes that the show is somehow transcendent when it's primary claim to fame is an abundance of mammaries and death.

Did you really just criticise a show for having characters and scenes that were written by a person? Because that seems a bit... odd, to say the least. I mean, "they're only doing that because they were written that way" is true of all fiction, it doesn't take away from any impact or significance or whatever you might draw from it, surely?

While I do think the books are better, the show has its merits. Though I rather dislike the design of the Dothraki (in the series).
Anyway, mostly I hear you don't like the pacing. You should understand that as of now there are 5, and there should be 7 in total and that by the end of the first season is basically a preface, a setup for things to come.
The next issue would be the switching around between characters. It's mostly used to build suspense arcs, for just when you want something to be resolved, it switches to another seemingly unrelated character, which for the most part and as of book 5 ties the story together.
Winter is coming...and it is indeed, but even in book 5 it hasn't arrived quite yet. It refers to the inevitability of it's return and on some level of the stoic nature of the Stark family and the north in general.
Quite frankly, I much prefer the Realpolitik of the characters in their drive for power than the fantastical and magical elements of the story which seem mostly to serve as some foreshadowing of an impending clash between dragons and white walkers, though that's fine. That should be quite interesting as well.

The only good point he made was the amount of sex, which I think has been toned down in the last two seasons.

On the other hand, not being able to follow the show is a problem on his part, not the show. Yes, it involves many different story lines, some of which are political, some are interpersonal, some are fantastical, some are epic battles. There are tons of characters and it is confusing to keep track of the relationships all of the characters have, because they keep changing. Political alliances come and go. It is hard to tell who is a bad guy and who is the good guys some of the time. That's one of the show's strengths, not weaknesses.

SilverStuddedSquirre:

daibakuha:
Holy shit was this dumb. You confuse tone with what the show is about and then confuse the "Winter is coming" with some kind of plot device, like a some kind of prophecy.

Honestly, you are 100% wrong and there's just too much stupidity to even try arguing.

Uh...The coming of winter IS a plot device. If Winter were NOT coming, ever, why the hell would there even be a Wall? Winter = ice zombies. Ice Zombies = reason for people to band together as one Kingdom, rather than Seven warring factions. The lack of unity within the realm is the main obstacle to be overcome before Winter Comes. If you want to go calling people stupid, you should make sure that worse stupidity isn't coming from you. It could very easily be likened to a Prophesy because like a prophesy, is happening is absolutely assured. The when and how, are where the story goes.

Thank you, come again!

The statement isn't used that much in the show, first of all. Second, it's not even used for ACTUAL winter. It's meant to foreshadow other, terrible things. It's also meant to characterize the Stark family and differentiate the northerners from those who live elsewhere.

I agree with the point that the show is just too fast (pacing). The characters are good but each one needs more screen time, I simply don't have enough time with each character to attach myself to them. I am not saying its a bad show...Its simply overrated.

OK for everyone here about to debate Chris. I am going to summarize his points here so we can collectively thrash him in an eloquent debate.Hope it helps, and look below for my points/counter points

Chris' points
- Constant switching between fantasy and political thriller leading to a lack of focus
- Takes too long for payoff
- Too many characters/names to remember (lots of old white dudes)
- Red Wedding being a disappointment because characters were inactive until then.
- Bewbs and gratuitous sex scenes

My points
- The reason GoT is such a hit is because of it's writing. You may say that it seems disjointed and lacking focus but its the subtelties in the characters and their interactions that are the most interesting. Beyond that you need to look at character development. There are not a lot of shows that can completely transform a character from a monster (ie Jamie Lannister) into something more sympathetic (I call it reverse Walter Whiting)

- Really Chris? You're gonna use Heroes as a counter point? After the 1st season of Heroes how was it? Maybe if they took a little longer to save the damn cheerleader the show wouldn't have gone down the drain in quality after 1 freaking season.

- ...Not gonna argue with point 3. It's best to have a character map or family tree infront of you

- The Red wedding is great because it completely defies the Star Wars character law: when you have more than 2 main characters in 1 area you know everything is going to be alright. Beyond that it was great because A it was unexpected for those who weren't familiar with the books and B it has far reaching implications into the rest of the show. Lastly, Chris I just have a feeling you were disappointed because of the hype and the fact that everyone was talking about it. You went in knowing something was going to happen and thus it detracted from the overall excitement.

- There's actually quite a good amount of sex in the books and granted some of the sex in the show is gratuitous but if you look at Daneyrs and her scenes, she essentially goes from timid young woman to badass Mother of Dragons. Her character development actually is represented well in those scenes. Look beyond the flesh my friend.

My final point and one that you "conveniently" left out. ONE BAD ASS IMP. Tyrion is amazing, and Peter Dinklage owns the screen when he's on it.

I know people always say this, but the books are better. The characters are defined better and at greater length, the structure is different, they don't have to include every character at the same time so it becomes a bit of a clusterfuck...yeah. Also, the nudity is a fault of the show (and HBO), not the source material. I love the show because I get to see these characters and events come to life.

Wow, this might get ugly.

stueymon:
Chris is wrong and a Hipster.

More detailed response. Chris can't handle complexity "Is it drama? is it political intrigue? oh wait dragons I SO CONFOOSED"

Also, you can't keep up with the character names? Boo hoo for you, I have this remarkable ability called "paying attention". Can you name all the characters from The Wire? I doubt it.

I suppose one point I can concede is that GoT does have too much sex and some of it feels just added for the sake of it.

Someone make Chris watch Game of Thrones again as punishment for his hubris

Pretty much what stueymon says here. This is a show which requires you to pay attention at all times, but having said that you don't actually need to be able to remember the names of all the characters, just a handfull and then keep a vague sense of the identity of a few of the men around them.

For example; you need to know the names of the whole Stark family, but you don't need to remember all the names of everyone in Robb's army, everyone in the Nights Watch, everyone bumbling about with Arya or everyone who interacts with Sansa in King's Landing. So long as when you see someone talking to Jon and you can say "Oh that's the old white guy who's in charge of the Night's Watch" or "That's some other new recruit"(really not that difficult, especially in the context of the scenes) you don't have to remember that they're called Lord Morment or Pyp

daibakuha:

SilverStuddedSquirre:

daibakuha:
Holy shit was this dumb. You confuse tone with what the show is about and then confuse the "Winter is coming" with some kind of plot device, like a some kind of prophecy.

Honestly, you are 100% wrong and there's just too much stupidity to even try arguing.

Uh...The coming of winter IS a plot device. If Winter were NOT coming, ever, why the hell would there even be a Wall? Winter = ice zombies. Ice Zombies = reason for people to band together as one Kingdom, rather than Seven warring factions. The lack of unity within the realm is the main obstacle to be overcome before Winter Comes. If you want to go calling people stupid, you should make sure that worse stupidity isn't coming from you. It could very easily be likened to a Prophesy because like a prophesy, is happening is absolutely assured. The when and how, are where the story goes.

Thank you, come again!

The statement isn't used that much in the show, first of all. Second, it's not even used for ACTUAL winter. It's meant to foreshadow other, terrible things. It's also meant to characterize the Stark family and differentiate the northerners from those who live elsewhere.

Oh I see. My own understanding of the seasons is this: there are 4 basic seasons, like Earth. There are additionally 2, long term seasons labelled Summer and Winter. These refer to climatological changes, which seem to occur with a wishy-washy cycle of hundreds of years. It is never explained, because the people of the world do not understand it either, and this is fantasy, not science fiction. "Summer" refers to the climate we see on the show now. "Winter" refers to a time (it's coming, we swear!) When the entire planet becomes a much colder place, perma-frost, glacial advance, no visible sun for Months, even years on end. Also Zombies.

Could it be explained better in the books? Absolutely. However I like being as ignorant to the why (within the story) as the characters. Outside the books, I have a cock-a-maimy binary planet theory that may or may not hold any water, I am not an astronomer.

PurpleLeafRave:
I know people always say this, but the books are better. The characters are defined better and at greater length, the structure is different, they don't have to include every character at the same time so it becomes a bit of a clusterfuck...yeah. Also, the nudity is a fault of the show (and HBO), not the source material. I love the show because I get to see these characters and events come to life.

The nudity is as common in the source material as it is in the show. Even then there have been shows with far more nudity which didn't see as much damning criticism for the nudity.

As others have also said, they did tone down the nudity in the later seasons, probably because they were criticized for it.

I laughed at the video.

I then laughed harder at some of the comments here.

I enjoy Game of Thrones, read the books and love 'em. Don't in any way give a fuck if there are people who don't like them - Of course they could be better. I've yet to read,watch or otherwise come across, in any way, shape, or form, a perfect story.

I await the remainder of this thread with baited breath. I've really gotten into coming on the internet to read the thoughts of people getting genuinely emotional in their defence of things they like, or what they feel is a misinterpretation of something they like.

daibakuha:
Honestly, you are 100% wrong and there's just too much stupidity to even try arguing.

Stuff like that. Fucking love it.

Opinions!

Really, though, a lot of things you say here doesn't make sense to me.

First, you treat the words "Winter is Coming" as though it's some sort of prophecy when it's actually the words of the Stark House, sort of an ever present reminder to always be vigilant because bad tidings are always approaching and will come at some point if they haven't already (as by Season 2 onwards, and only getting worse).

Second, you criticize the show for its "lack of focus" when it's actually one of the things I like most about it: the multiple story lines all centered around this conflict of the realm falling apart as a supernatural darkness approaches. We spend some time with the characters at King's Landing before we shift to the North, then the Wall, and then to Essos. We (or at least I) never grow bored by any of it, like I can in certain other shows, because whenever we've spent some time in one location with a certain set of characters and start to grow weary, it shifts to another fresh location we haven't seen in a while with characters giving us new things to wonder about.

Then, the Red Wedding. I admit that it's been too hyped, but it is quite shocking if you, ya know, CARE about the characters, which you admit not to. Of course it's not gonna affect you because, by your own admission, you don't care about the characters they kill. Not a whole lot to say there. Also, since at least two of the characters that perish are ones we've known and cared about since the start of the show, and they /do/ something as in one of them is a renegade king who has won every battle he's fought in a war engulfing an entire continent, it's quite understandable why it's significant. Especially since it was in an act of betrayal.

I can see how the sex gets kind of distracting at times, but at others it feels natural. /Just/ because a scene contains sex and nudity doesn't mean it's not cleverly written, and I can't think of one where the show used sex as a crutch.

daibakuha:

PurpleLeafRave:
I know people always say this, but the books are better. The characters are defined better and at greater length, the structure is different, they don't have to include every character at the same time so it becomes a bit of a clusterfuck...yeah. Also, the nudity is a fault of the show (and HBO), not the source material. I love the show because I get to see these characters and events come to life.

The nudity is as common in the source material as it is in the show. Even then there have been shows with far more nudity which didn't see as much damning criticism for the nudity.

As others have also said, they did tone down the nudity in the later seasons, probably because they were criticized for it.

Sex in an HBO series?!?! GASP! Oh America, murder, intolerance, and violence is good family fun, but Sex is Evil!

PurpleLeafRave:
I know people always say this, but the books are better. The characters are defined better and at greater length, the structure is different, they don't have to include every character at the same time so it becomes a bit of a clusterfuck...yeah. Also, the nudity is a fault of the show (and HBO), not the source material. I love the show because I get to see these characters and events come to life.

Part of the problem comes from the series being so faithful to the source material (in terms of content). Where the books can spend plenty of time laying out character motivations and devoting enough time to their stories, the tv show is hamstrung by its 10 episode/1 hour per episode length. The result is that events or characters are either rushed over, or god awful 'sexposition' is used to quickly explain everything about a character.

I'm with Chris on this one, but then again I thought the Battlestar Galactica remake was overrated too.

I've tried watching Game of Thrones, but it just seems like a big soap opera with the lord of the rings playing in the background. Oh, and there's sex and nudity, because that always sells; it really didn't add anything to the episodes I saw and wound up distracting from what else was going on. I suspect the books are probably better, but this discussion isn't about the books, is it? (And if the show can't stand on its own, then it's already lost.)

The show has all this promise of zombies and dragons and magic and mystery, but none of it is there. It's just a medieval soap opera designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator and uses the fantasy hook to keep people watching way longer than they normally would have.

...Sorry. I got a little carried away there. I'm just sick of hearing about the show.

Stu35:
II await the remainder of this thread with baited breath. I've really gotten into coming on the internet to read the thoughts of people getting genuinely emotional in their defence of things they like, or what they feel is a misinterpretation of something they like.

Honestly It's not that people don't have the right to not like a show. When they take the time to make a video about it, filled with lazy armchair criticism and fairly baseless accusations about the show, I get a little miffed.

This guy doesn't even understand the basic plot of the show.

Debate accepted!

1) This show is not well written, it is not well structured, the characters are not well defined, the premise is not very clear, there is no tone.

The tone, as defined from the very first scene, is dark fantasy. "Winter is coming" is both in-universe statement about the ending of Summer (plenty and warmth) and plot metaphor. There is a crisis in this world - the white walkers - that threaten to overwhelm all of Westeros. But that also applies to the death of Robert Baratheon and the fall of the Seven Kingdoms into war. So now the very people that could have stood together against this threat are warring between themselves, throwing away the defenses they had and becoming ill-prepared for "winter".

It's all about the Ant and the Grasshopper. Instead of putting in the hard work now, the characters do what is immediately expedient to their goals - and that leads to their downfall.

Instead of building up a power base against Cersi and retreating when he's been outmaneuvered, Ned refuses to compromise his morals.

Instead of acknowledging Stannis' stronger claim, Renly rebels against his brother.

Instead of following his father's orders, Theon sacks Winterfell.

Instead of honoring his betrothal, Robb marries Jeyne Westerling.

Premise (acting today instead of preparing for tomorrow) followed. These characters are all maimed, tortured, and/or killed for their mistakes. Dark fantasy tone? Check.

Now, poorly defined characters - let's use Red Letter Media's test. Describe some of these characters without using physical traits.

Ned is noble, duty-bound, and stoic.
Cersi is a bitter, conniving hedonist that loves her children.
Tywin puts what he thinks is best for the Lannister family above all else.
Catelyn worries incessantly and will compromise her beliefs if it saves someone she loves.
Stannis is uncompromising to the point of psychosis, unconcerned with the views of others, and driven to see his goals achieved at nearly any cost.
Tyrion is mischievous, devious, politically adroit, and intelligent.

I could probably do this for every POV character.

...which, actually, I've read the books. So if you're looking to debate people who have ONLY seen the show, well damn, I'm out.

Only seen a few scenes as I walked past the living room while others were watching the show (every single one had a naked person... every single one. You can't convince me this isn't porn, as that's my only experience with it, and if I wanted to watch porn I would do so with less torture and blood involved thank you very much).

However, I did read the first book. Which is the reason that I don't watch the show. While I can't say it's poorly written, the author seems to have no sense of pacing. It is just a series of 40 pages with nothing happening, followed by 2 pages where everyone he told you was important dies, rinse and repeat. Or, the tone of some significant character shifts so dramatically that they might as well have died and been replaced by a new character. And this isn't a "people are complex" shift, it's a complete character shift with only a name attached between the two. Then every single build up he has going is a "NOPE! JUST KIDDING!" twist which I'm sure was supposed to be emotionally significant and appear witty, but I just thought, "Well crap, if you actually followed through with that build up you might have had a cool story going instead of a story that's just everyone's a jerk, then they die." I'm told if I could force my way through the second book that an actual story finally forms in the 3rd. Yeah... that's not happening anytime soon. Though I didn't completely hate the first book, so maybe someday, But I think I'll wait until he finishes writing the story (see, now I never have to worry about reading the books)

I like the show, but I think you're points were fine. Maybe a little poorly structured since you tried to get them all in a such a short amount of time (;D)

Drakoorr:
Did you really just criticise a show for having characters and scenes that were written by a person? Because that seems a bit... odd, to say the least. I mean, "they're only doing that because they were written that way" is true of all fiction, it doesn't take away from any impact or significance or whatever you might draw from it, surely?

Generally speaking, should a character get points for doing something when it's not improbable the reasons behind the writer's decision for the act are less noble?

Or specifically, if a woman character, who is created/written by a man, uses her sexuality as empowerment, does that count as female empowerment or male wish fulfillment? Maybe both, it's hard to say. That's what I believe he was getting at though.

Of course not, it's a great show.

Ah, gotcha: "Game of Thrones surprise me, make me care." You're spite watching dude. It's cool that the show didn't grab ya, I'm sorry to hear that. But watching to just to find stuff to gripe about doesn't make your viewpoint more right, especially when you're actively disinterested in the characters.

daibakuha:

Stu35:
II await the remainder of this thread with baited breath. I've really gotten into coming on the internet to read the thoughts of people getting genuinely emotional in their defence of things they like, or what they feel is a misinterpretation of something they like.

Honestly It's not that people don't have the right to not like a show. When they take the time to make a video about it, filled with lazy armchair criticism and fairly baseless accusations about the show, I get a little miffed.

This guy doesn't even understand the basic plot of the show.

And?

I don't understand the basics plot of Geordie Shore (Well, I think I do - I think it's premise is "A bunch of glow-in-the-dark-orange people shagging"), it doesn't mean I can't make a video about how shit it is (I haven't, and wouldn't, but I totally could if I wanted).

Don't get me wrong, you're well within your rights to get uppity about said video, just know that there are cynical, acerbic people like me out there who find that to be highly amusing.

jdarksun:
snip

Everything you've said about the books, also applies really well to the show. So carry on good sir.

Having only read the first 2 and a half books and not seen the show, I agree completely with almost everything Chris said. Even the books have stupid unnecessary sex because "reasons". The "Winter is Coming" thing was fine in the first book, but there's so much political intrigue going on that George RR Martin forgot to move the plot along through most of the second book.

The only thing that's marginally better in the books is all the names. And that's only because I remember things better when I see and read them and I have the ability to quickly flip to the back of the book to make sure the person is who I think it is.

I don't think Game of Thrones is terrible, but it is insanely overrated.

I like the show but agree with what was said in the video, it IS disjointed and felt like a story told by an old guy rambling. The reason why it works for me and I continue liking it it's because it takes itself very seriously, the actors BELIEVE in their roles and bring the audience into their world, mesmerized.

As for why YOU or anyone in particular should like the show, the answer is: why not? there's enough shit in life to not like, taking game of throne off that list would only make you a happier person.

I don't mind anyone disliking this show, but I find it a bit... odd that you criticize a show that is about a lot of characters and their family relations, and political motives set in a fantasy world, to have a lot of characters, their family relations and politcal motives set in a fantasy world.

That's not lack of tone. That is the tone. In your opinion 'tone' is apparently focus on just fantasy, or just politics.

There's plenty of legitemate criticism to throw at Game of Thrones, but this isn't one of them. That's like me saying 'I don't like sci-fi, aliens, and horror, that's why Alien is bad.'

Joke's on you, Chris. I haven't even seen the show once, nor do I plan to. I do however, enjoy all these silly angry people, just what I had hoped.

I have to respond to a 7 minute video with a 30 second clip?

Is there any limit to how long the comment can be.
All 30 seconds gives you time to do is say "It's good because it's good." and maybe an ad hominem.

The rules seem remarkably stacked against the rebuttal.

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