Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 4 "Oathkeeper" Review - What's Going On?

Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 4 "Oathkeeper" Review - What's Going On?

The fourth episode of season four has now gone beyond a few changes to the story of George R. R. Martin and completely rewritten it. That's a good thing.

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"Margeary's ploy to sneak in and talk to Tommen like a real person is genius, and he will quickly latch onto her over his smothering mother."

You mean seducing a very sugestable minor to give her the reins of power?

I don't know how I feel about the ending scene of this episode. I'm not so hopelessly dedicated to the books that I can't stomach a bit of deviation, and I like the Crastor's Keep angle because it gives Jon Snow and Bran something to do, rather than just abandoning them for multiple episodes at a time which a more faithful adaptation would have had to do at this point.

But the presence of... I don't know, Ice Satan? at the end of the episode was nuts. The motivations and organization of the Others in the books has been intentionally vague for five books now, with all sorts of theories floating around, but here in the show equivalent of book 3 we learn that they have some sort of leadership and base of operation. What's more, it appears that the child was converted into a White Walker, not a run-of-the-mill zombie. I feel like I'm being spoiled for plot points that Martin hasn't even written yet.

Edit: By the way, the choice of Bronn over Ilynn Payne for Jaime's sparring partner is likely more to avoid re-casting Payne than any intentional narrative process. The actor that played Payne in the first two seasons has cancer and won't be returning to the show, unfortunately, and unlike Tommen or Daario, Payne had too much of a physical presence to simply get another actor for.

The whole Cersei thing last episode, putting aside accusations of misogyny or sexism, just makes no fucking sense from a story perspective. Furthermore, it comes out of nowhere and it doesn't seem like it's going to be mentioned again.

Craster's Keep is also pretty weird. I do think the skull chalice was a bit much. Yeah, we got that these guys were scum from last season. I do wonder why some writers seem to be obsessed with beating their readers over the head with how horrible scumbags are.

The ending of course is the scene everyone is talking about. Not just how it's completely new, but that we might be getting a glimpse into something that will show up in the books later. Furthermore, ANOTHER thing about it sent the forums into a riot. Shortly after the episode aired, the official plot synopsis NAMED the White Walker turning the child. And its name is the NIGHT'S KING. This is the name given to the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who apparently was seduced by a female White Walker and made the Watch his personal army. He was said to have been a Stark, brother to the King in the North at the time. Eventually he was defeated and even mentioning his true name was forbidden.

That is pretty big, since it brings up lore we've heard about but never really thought about. However, HBO has since changed the plot synopsis so it might have been a mistake or someone just let slip a big spoiler. Still, very interesting.

Yojoo:
I don't know how I feel about the ending scene of this episode. I'm not so hopelessly dedicated to the books that I can't stomach a bit of deviation, and I like the Crastor's Keep angle because it gives Jon Snow and Bran something to do, rather than just abandoning them for multiple episodes at a time which a more faithful adaptation would have had to do at this point.

But the presence of... I don't know, Ice Satan? at the end of the episode was nuts. The motivations and organization of the Others in the books has been intentionally vague for five books now, with all sorts of theories floating around, but here in the show equivalent of book 3 we learn that they have some sort of leadership and base of operation. What's more, it appears that the child was converted into a White Walker, not a run-of-the-mill zombie. I feel like I'm being spoiled for plot points that Martin hasn't even written yet.

Edit: By the way, the choice of Bronn over Ilynn Payne for Jaime's sparring partner is likely more to avoid re-casting Payne than any intentional narrative process. The actor that played Payne in the first two seasons has cancer and won't be returning to the show, unfortunately, and unlike Tommen or Daario, Payne had too much of a physical presence to simply get another actor for.

To be fair to the show, a TV show is an animal different from a book series, which can't afford to go 4 entire seasons without providing at least some pay-off to the entities who are supposedly it's principle antagonists. Yes, credit to Martin for creating such a mysterious, passively threatening villain, but at this point in the books I really am starting to ask myself just what the White Walkers are still waiting for? Ever since the Fist of the First Men, they've kinda been in a holding pattern of 'These guys sure are gonna wreck some shit when they turn up... at some point.'

Assuming these same or similar answers were coming in The Winds of Winter, the show can't afford to wait that long anyway, so they might as well reveal it now.

Also, thinking about it, it was always kinda obvious the Others wanted Craster's sons for more than just regular Wights. They can make Wights out of any corpse without needing to ask for donations. Why else would they go to that trouble unless they wanted to mould the babies into something... else. I guess now we just know for sure what that 'else' always was.

(P.S. A very minor correction for the article: Martyn Lannister wasn't murdered by Jamie in his escape. He was murdered by Rickard Karstark as revenge for his son, who was murdered during Jaime's escape.)

Surprise surprise, Greg "Five Star Dragon Age 2" Tito likes the changes to episode 4 I hated.

No, I'm kidding. I understand they needed to spice up Bran's story line. I just wish it would have been more of something good happening to him instead of getting in more trouble. I know conflict breeds drama, but I just feel like the Stark's have had enough conflict and it would be refreshing at this point to see them get something positive. I wish they did something instead with (spoiler from the book) Coldhands. But I guess if they introduced another character (albeit at other worldly one) that didn't gel with their group initially it might be a retread of how they met Osha, then met the Reeds. Maybe Coldhands saves them from the deserters at Kraster's Keep before Snow gets there.

Also Tommen has 3 cats, not 1. Fuckers.

Still waiting on Coldhands lol. But yeah, it's fun seeing Reddit blow up with theories.

"It was also genius for the show's creators to re-use the actor who previously played Martyn Lannister - the lordling Jaime killed to get out of the Stark prison."

Wrong actor, Dean-Charles Chapman played Martyn Lannister younger brother of Lancel Lannister and killed by Robb Starks ally Rickard Karstark.

I actually didn't find the Jamie scenes in this episode quite as jarring as it seems some people did, and I appreciated that Cersei seemed legitimately angry with him to the point that she even seemed to have difficulty looking at him. I think the fact that Jamie was so able to continue acting fairly emotionally normal, and even tender and genuine, is a fairly realistic portrayal of where the character is right now. Despite his monstrous actions in the last episode, he is not necessarily a monster and the actions he did take where not actions taken on behalf of his tender and genuine side. As is often stated, rape is not about love or even always lust, it's more about power and control. Of course, knowing that the show runners seemingly messed up the scene in the sept that take on the situation could simply be my interpretation as opposed to what was actually going on.

Greg Tito:
The show is now even more a complete and different piece of art than the books and while people like me will always be comparing the two - I can't help it! - it is getting harder and harder for me to believe that's a terribly useful enterprise. The two versions inform each other, and fans should take from both of them what they can.

Thank you for making this admission. There is nothing wrong with comparing an adaptation and it's originating work, and there's also nothing wrong with stating which you prefer. When, however, a critique boils down to "this is good/bad because it was/wasn't like that in the source material" then there is an issue. The two works are different and are being told in different media (and, largely, by different authors). Also, if you do happen to hate some or all of the adaptation compared to the source material the fact is the adaptation existing doesn't somehow remove the original work from existence.

I think the producers and writers of the show are aware people are getting fatigued over years going by with story progress inching along minutes per episode and basically nothing happening most of the season other than killing off characters and a major event in the last 2 episodes. It took 4 episodes, nearly half the season just for Dany to get into the city.

They need to change a little here and there just to have characters DO something. Bran started north 15 episodes ago in 2012, and he's nowhere close to his desination according to what bookreaders say and he aged from 11 to 16 in looks with basically nothing going on but "yup, still traveling".

I'm starting to miss story arcs taking multiple episodes in traditional TV shows rather than multiple years, because I groaned when I realized Tyrion's trial was going to take the whole damn season and the dragon shadow over king's landing was going to be the final episode cliff-hanger.

Grahav:
"Margeary's ploy to sneak in and talk to Tommen like a real person is genius, and he will quickly latch onto her over his smothering mother."

You mean seducing a very sugestable minor to give her the reins of power?

Yea, ha ha, they recast the character between seasons, so the kid went from looking like 8 years old to 15 and taller than Joffery in a matter of weeks in-story so people wouldn't complain.

Greg Tito:
The fourth episode of season four has now gone beyond a few changes to the story of George R. R. Martin and completely rewritten it. That's a good thing.

I like to think of the books and the t.v series as telling two different versions of the same story.

Nurb:
I think the producers and writers of the show are aware people are getting fatigued over years going by with story progress inching along minutes per episode and basically nothing happening most of the season other than killing off characters and a major event in the last 2 episodes. It took 4 episodes, nearly half the season just for Dany to get into the city.

They need to change a little here and there just to have characters DO something. Bran started north 15 episodes ago in 2012, and he's nowhere close to his desination according to what bookreaders say and he aged from 11 to 16 in looks with basically nothing going on but "yup, still traveling".

I'm starting to miss story arcs taking multiple episodes in traditional TV shows rather than multiple years, because I groaned when I realized Tyrion's trial was going to take the whole damn season and the dragon shadow over king's landing was going to be the final episode cliff-hanger.

Grahav:
"Margeary's ploy to sneak in and talk to Tommen like a real person is genius, and he will quickly latch onto her over his smothering mother."

You mean seducing a very sugestable minor to give her the reins of power?

Yea, ha ha, they recast the character between seasons, so the kid went from looking like 8 years old to 15 and taller than Joffery in a matter of weeks in-story so people wouldn't complain.

Just wanted to chime in and say that the dragon flying over King's Landing has already happened in Season 4. It was one of Bran's visions when he touched the tree. So no cliffhanger, sorry.

bdcjacko:

No, I'm kidding. I understand they needed to spice up Bran's story line. I just wish it would have been more of something good happening to him instead of getting in more trouble. I know conflict breeds drama, but I just feel like the Stark's have had enough conflict and it would be refreshing at this point to see them get something positive. I wish they did something instead with (spoiler from the book) Coldhands. But I guess if they introduced another character (albeit at other worldly one) that didn't gel with their group initially it might be a retread of how they met Osha, then met the Reeds. Maybe Coldhands saves them from the deserters at Kraster's Keep before Snow gets there.

I am pretty sure that

Grahav:
"Margeary's ploy to sneak in and talk to Tommen like a real person is genius, and he will quickly latch onto her over his smothering mother."

You mean seducing a very sugestable minor to give her the reins of power?

Actually its very clever and really sets up the awkward relationship and conflict between, the Tyrells (mostly Margery but also Loras who started training Tommen as a Knight), Tommen and Cersei as they compete for his heart and mind (or more accurately his arse, because its on the throne) which kinda comes out of nowhere in the books. Making that one of the key story lines of the Court in Kings Landing much earlier makes sense.

I was even more surprised by a different deviation from the books, although I probably shouldn't be.

BOOK SPOILERS BITCHES

I love the books, they're probably right up there with the chronicles of the black company in terms of the best fantasy I've read. And I love the show too, but after seeing the last couple episodes, I'm beginning to think that too many small changes they made are piling up. Now, for my own sanity I kinda try and regard the two as seperate entities (ala The Walking Dead) that worked for awhile. However what I eventually realized was that they ARE trying to do a straight adaptation of ASOIAF, which means that for all intents and purposes those changes matter. Changes made to the timeline (what it's really been months since Jaime came back? Sansa spent years in kings landing?) will especially require some writer gymnastics to make sense of. The emissions of characters (strong Belwas, Penny, the list goes on) and subplots (why is Jorah still around?) are a little easier to explain away as this show does have a limited budget and running time. However I fear for the growth of these characters, Penny is absolutely crucial to Tyrion's character arc, and her presence at Joffrey's wedding and Tyrion's refusal to joust is integral to her character too. I like Penny and I want to see her done well in the show but so far there's been no sign of her. Strong Belwas' emission is at once understandable and annoying. He's not a super deep character, just a badass who was part of Selmy's cover. He doesn't have that many lines despite being a strong presence in Dany's army, it would have been easy to introduce him alongside Arstan Whitebeard. On the other hand he isn't that important and the show has been perfectly content to let Daario do all the stuff Belwas should've done. The show also has this tendency to dumb down characters in order to make them appear more like able. The case in point is Shae. In the books Shae and Tyrion's relationship is one of mutual benefit, however Shae is so good at playing the part that Tyrion does sorta fall for
her. Then Joffrey dies and Tyrion's trial comes. Shae rips him apart on the stand, essentially calls him a rapist and monster. Shae is a prostitute, she has basically no rights and testified out of necessity to save her own life. Then she screws Tywin because that's her next, best prospect to keep herself alive. I'll be intrigued to see how show-Tyrion's trial plays out but I can pretty much promise that it won't end with a string of golden hands around a delicate throat.

And then there's Jaime.
Jaime, Jaime, Jaime. You know I once read a paper on creating good villains for film and one of its main points was this; if you wanted to create a villain that nobody could empathize with, just a piece of shit who nobody likes, you make them a rapist. I wonder if the director of that episode ever read it? Probably not, Alex Graves strikes me as kind of a shithead. I mean anyone who says that rape can be "consensual by the end" can fuck right off the edge of my dick. That scene I'm the sept of Baelor was handled differently in the books, as has been discussed numerous times, and consent was clearly given in the books. But now we have Jaime rape his sister right in the middle of what is supposed to be his redemptive character arc? Now I'm not opposed to depictions of sexual violence in media, I don't enjoy it either. Sexual violence has touched my life and the lives of people I care about, and can be handled with the proper gravitas that such a traumatic event deserves. A good recent example of rape being handled appropriately is the most recent issue of Invincible, (a superhero comic by Robert Kirkman, of TWD fame). I'm not a psychic so I can't look into the future and see if Jaime's horrible actions will actually have any meaningful impact on they're relationship (Cersei is already in a really bad place in the books at this point). But considering that at this point in the books Jamie is already drawing away from her, I seriously doubt it. We only got one scene of them together this episode and Jaime seems neither aware nor repentant of his actions. Likewise Cersei was about as cold to him as she'd been since he'd come back. Between this and the director's opinion that he was filming a consensual sex scene, I'm actually a bit disgusted at how poorly they're handling this. Having a character be raped and then not bother to address it and treat it as consensual is disgusting and guess what? Rape culture. When a director (along with whoever wrote that scene and whatever dumbass ok'd it) films a rape scene and then plays it off as fine in the story because it was "consensual by the end" that's exactly the kind of thing that that term describes.

I really like the show and I love the source material so this concern is coming from a place of love. I want to keep watching while I wait for the next book to come out. I really do, but right now the show (at least in my opinion) should try and cleave a little closer to the source material. You can say whatever you want about the show and book being seperate entities and that statement is literally true, but it still is and always was intended to be as faithful and adaptation as they could make. I'm worried about you Game of Thrones!

One other thing that annoyed me; the fact that the people making the show know the general outline for the rest of the series. Basically what this boils down to for me is that they'll spoil things but worse; that they'll spoil then really badly. Like that dumb frozen throne/ice satan shit at the end. It's funny, I always remembered Martin describing the white walkers as creatures of otherworldly grace, silent snow shadows in shifting white armor with thin blades the color of ice. The female white walker the Night King married was supposed to be hot as hell, so why Instead do we get some generic looking ice zombies. I felt I was watching a Blizzard cutscene from Warcraft there at the end.

Episode 4 confirmed what I suspected last week, that the rape-but-not-rape scene was a cock-up by the episode's director and not a change in plot lines.

I have to say I'm fine with all the story changes in this episode, some of the earlier ones this season pissed me off a bit though.

nvm delete

Karl 'fucking' Tanner as the insane lord of his own little hell was gleefully over-acted. I think he was glorious. "Any more Orders...? What's that lord commander? Fuck 'em till their dead?!"

He so cray.

I don't understand how this episode isn't just universally reviled. I can handle changes to the books, the different format requires plenty of concessions and the books were never perfect to begin with, but Christ this episode was dumb. The only scene that wasn't god-awful was Jaime and Brienne's, and even that is sullied by what happened in the last episode.

The deserters in Craster's Keep have less depth than Saturday morning cartoon villains. The leader literally drinks out of skulls and plans to rape all of the women to death (something he announces to the world freely), and he was a hired killer before even joining the Night's Watch. He also imprisons a giant fucking dire-wolf for no discernible reason whatsoever (so that Jon can come be a hero and save it I guess?), then he also imprisons Bran (and company) for no discernible reason (again, so that Jon can be a hero and come save him?). He and his henchman randomly jab at Hodor just in case we're somehow still not sure that these guys are definitely 100% the villains, but again they won't kill him because plot armour. One of them even gives a little bit of exposition, he hates Hodor because Hodor is tall and he is short. Deep.

Why did Bran (and company) decide to hide 3 feet from where the deserters were? Why did the deserters set a huge pit trap in the middle of their own camp? Why did Sam even tell Jon about Bran? All to set up some crappy plot in which Jon (and pals + the obvious future betrayer) ditch the wall right when there's an incoming wilding invasion!? The wildings are beyond the wall right now at this very moment, acting as a diversion for a wildling army which is moving on them also right now at this very moment, and Jon goes to get revenge on some deserters!? What The Fuck?

It even seems like they're trying to set up a romance between Grey Worm and Missandei. I hope I'm wrong about that, but seriously? The eunuch warrior who has had practically all emotions tortured out of him since before he could even remember, who lives for nothing but serving "The Breaker of Chains" and liberating his still-bound brethren, and they're giving him a romance subplot. If they go through with that, that's his entire interesting personality butchered and replaced with more generic drivel.

Olenna Tyrell, yet another character they seem intent on destroying. The elderly woman who is the extremely influential effective head of the Tyrell family, who gained her power via her extreme cunning and ruthlessness. Oh, nevermind, it turns out she's just really good at sex. She was supposed to marry a Targaryen, but didn't like him and stole the Tyrell heir by sneaking into his room and screwing him so well that he... became addicted to her? Nevermind the fact that she had nothing but disdain for Luthor Tyrell as well.

There's more (much more) but I'm seriously going to have an aneurysm if I think about this episode for much longer. There have been dips and peaks before, but the quality of the show just plummeted this episode for me, to the point that I won't bother watching it at all any more if this isn't a one-off incident. That's sad considering the last 3 seasons are some of the best TV I've ever watched. Deviating from the books is fine, but utterly contrived and nonsensical plot-lines and the complete destruction of (previously) interesting characters would piss me off whether it was in the books or not.

Ha, finishing the episode I too thought "Arthas and the Frozen Throne is officially GoT canon. Weird but cool."

I haven't read the books, but I am really glad that the show seems to be taking a more direct approach to the lore and mysticism of Westeros. As a big Dune fan I am fully aware of how terribly monologues and characters' inner thoughts translate to the screen. Sometimes showing simply trumps telling, especially in a medium like TV.

Scrumpmonkey:
Karl 'fucking' Tanner as the insane lord of his own little hell was gleefully over-acted. I think he was glorious. "Any more Orders...? What's that lord commander? Fuck 'em till their dead?!"

He so cray.

Burn Gorman is a funny sort of actor. I've never seen anyone who can be so unpleasant and yet so... dorky, at the same time.

I've read the books, and I'd have to say I like the changes. The books just stagnate so much and it's nice to see some questions answered. The scene with the baby was really menacing, but I'm not sure about the...thing's design. He looked like a blue and white version of Darth Maul to me.

I'm glad for the changes. As a book reader myself, a lot of book readers can be really pretentious individuals. Anything that angers them pleases me immensely.

Lunncal:
I don't understand how this episode isn't just universally reviled. I can handle changes to the books, the different format requires plenty of concessions and the books were never perfect to begin with, but Christ this episode was dumb. The only scene that wasn't god-awful was Jaime and Brienne's, and even that is sullied by what happened in the last episode.

The deserters in Craster's Keep have less depth than Saturday morning cartoon villains. The leader literally drinks out of skulls and plans to rape all of the women to death (something he announces to the world freely), and he was a hired killer before even joining the Night's Watch. He also imprisons a giant fucking dire-wolf for no discernible reason whatsoever (so that Jon can come be a hero and save it I guess?), then he also imprisons Bran (and company) for no discernible reason (again, so that Jon can be a hero and come save him?). He and his henchman randomly jab at Hodor just in case we're somehow still not sure that these guys are definitely 100% the villains, but again they won't kill him because plot armour. One of them even gives a little bit of exposition, he hates Hodor because Hodor is tall and he is short. Deep.

In terms of Hodor, people are bullies. Not just when they're kids, either. A mentally handicapped guy is a fairly easy target, especially in a feudal setting where people aren't particularly sympathetic to them. And with nothing to do but fuck sister-mothers all day, they were probably at least a little bored. Besides, they're more or less in prison guard status over him. Typically, unrestrained, people in such a position tend to exhibit sadistic tendencies over said prisoners. That these guys are made up of cut throats and rapists, they probably don't need much help to bare a sadistic streak.

As for the hitman from King's Landing, I got the impression he's trying to big himself up to keep the others under control. Look at his situation. If he doesn't keep the others respectfully scared of him, he'll probably go the same way as Mormont. As for Ghost, the guy seems to be the sort to like status symbols. Keeping Ghost chained up like that isn't a million miles away from chavvy assholes keeping pitbulls, or corrupt weirdos in Hollywood having tigers.

Why did Bran (and company) decide to hide 3 feet from where the deserters were? Why did the deserters set a huge pit trap in the middle of their own camp? Why did Sam even tell Jon about Bran? All to set up some crappy plot in which Jon (and pals + the obvious future betrayer) ditch the wall right when there's an incoming wilding invasion!? The wildings are beyond the wall right now at this very moment, acting as a diversion for a wildling army which is moving on them also right now at this very moment, and Jon goes to get revenge on some deserters!? What The Fuck?

I imagine the pit is a counter measure against white walkers, which are kind of swarming, in case you hadn't noticed. Or, you know, all the fairly dangerous animals and such that are meant to be north of the wall. And as for dealing with the deserters, Jon has stated numerous times that these guys know the Wall's security and patrols. They know its layout. Most importantly, they know that the Wall does not in fact have a huge fuck off army (i.e. the very thing keeping Mance cautious about assaulting it). If the Wildlings get that info, the Watch is screwed.

It even seems like they're trying to set up a romance between Grey Worm and Missandei. I hope I'm wrong about that, but seriously? The eunuch warrior who has had practically all emotions tortured out of him since before he could even remember, who lives for nothing but serving "The Breaker of Chains" and liberating his still-bound brethren, and they're giving him a romance subplot. If they go through with that, that's his entire interesting personality butchered and replaced with more generic drivel.

I admit this is kind of silly, but the whole point Grey Worm's peers elected him in the first place was because he showed more emotion/independent thought than the rest of them. And given that he's a eunach, any romance will probably be either one sided or unfulfilling.

Olenna Tyrell, yet another character they seem intent on destroying. The elderly woman who is the extremely influential effective head of the Tyrell family, who gained her power via her extreme cunning and ruthlessness. Oh, nevermind, it turns out she's just really good at sex. She was supposed to marry a Targaryen, but didn't like him and stole the Tyrell heir by sneaking into his room and screwing him so well that he... became addicted to her? Nevermind the fact that she had nothing but disdain for Luthor Tyrell as well.

So, because she reminisces about once using sex and sexuality to get what she wanted in a conversation where such an anecdote was relevant somehow invalidates everything else she's done? Setting up marriages with three kings for her daughter? Orchestrating Joffrey's death? Keeping pace with Varys and Tywin?

I'd ask you to actually think about the reasons for certain things before writing them off as stupid, but seeing as you're actually ignoring in show explanations on at least one occasion, I won't hold my breath.

Could people get over the rape scene already? Yes yes, it was shot badly, as if it's possible to make a scene "twins fucking under their son's dead body" any good.

Either way, move on.

BTW

some of the worst fight choreography I've ever seen. It's clear even to an untrained eye like mine that Jaime absolutely sucks at fighting left-handed.

You've been conditioned by movie swordfights too much.

Eeh I'm basically just ignoring the rape. It seems like an unintentional cock up as opposed to an alteration in the plot, so I don't see why I'd consider it relevant.

I mean he already tried to murder a 10 year old. And DID murder a bunch of other people. I'd say on the bad scale rape is at least 2 Stalin's away from a full Hitler, and murder is maybe only 1,5.

Nurb:

Grahav:
"Margeary's ploy to sneak in and talk to Tommen like a real person is genius, and he will quickly latch onto her over his smothering mother."

You mean seducing a very sugestable minor to give her the reins of power?

Yea, ha ha, they recast the character between seasons, so the kid went from looking like 8 years old to 15 and taller than Joffery in a matter of weeks in-story so people wouldn't complain.

The scene is still creepy. Remember "Pedofinger"? Tommen is even younger than Sansa, be it by age, looks or personality.

J Tyran:

Actually its very clever and really sets up the awkward relationship and conflict between, the Tyrells (mostly Margery but also Loras who started training Tommen as a Knight), Tommen and Cersei as they compete for his heart and mind (or more accurately his arse, because its on the throne) which kinda comes out of nowhere in the books. Making that one of the key story lines of the Court in Kings Landing much earlier makes sense.

In terms of power play and show narrative it is pretty clever.

What I didn't like is that Greg seemed to gloss over the seduction of a minor and just focusing on the smartness of Margaery.

Lunncal:
I don't understand how this episode isn't just universally reviled. I can handle changes to the books, the different format requires plenty of concessions and the books were never perfect to begin with, but Christ this episode was dumb.

I completely agree. This episode was so stupid. The dialogue/monologue in Craster's Keep was a mess of bad writing.

"Karl Tanner from Gin Alley drinking wine from the skull of Jeor Fucking Mormont. Any command for us lord commander? what's that? fuck 'em till their dead. Did you hear that boys, fuck 'em till their dead. Rast. Go outside and feed the best." - Okay, this is alright. it's not great, but fine, BAD GUY, got it.

Rast - "We should kill that thing."

"You should shut your fucking hole, ugly little cunt. You look like a fucking ballsack. Ugly looking stupid looking cunt face. I could piss in any gutter and soak five of you. Know how much they paid me to kill a man in King's Landing? Seven silvers. They told me a man's name and that man never saw daylight again. None of them cocksuckers got away from me. Haven't lost a fight since I was nine. Maybe it's time. What do you think, eh? Maybe you're the man. Eh, Cunt?" - What is this shit? - Ugly looking stupid looking cunt face - ? I'm not against swearing, nor the word Fuck nor Cunt. This though? This is just crap.

Rast - "I wouldn't stand a chance, none of us would."

"I was a fucking legend in Gin Alley. a fucking legend. I would take any knight, any knight any time. Fucking cunts in steel plate fucking cowards."

Then everything else was just heavy handed, they pushed subtlety out a tower window.

Apologies if this is abit rude in language. The only thing that was missing from the Margery/Tommen scene was him going to masturbate immediately after he left. Seriously the age he's portrayed as I know what I would of done as soon as she left.

I liked the episode yeah it was a departure in some places but mainly it worked I just worry about 3-4 seasons of Danerys in Meereen they are going to have to work hard at keeping it interesting. Bran is the other major criminal for doing nothing. The major diffrence is bran is utterly dull Danerys has an important character arc to go through but it's a lot of just learning to rule which may sap people attention.

Grahav:

J Tyran:

Actually its very clever and really sets up the awkward relationship and conflict between, the Tyrells (mostly Margery but also Loras who started training Tommen as a Knight), Tommen and Cersei as they compete for his heart and mind (or more accurately his arse, because its on the throne) which kinda comes out of nowhere in the books. Making that one of the key story lines of the Court in Kings Landing much earlier makes sense.

In terms of power play and show narrative it is pretty clever.

What I didn't like is that Greg seemed to gloss over the seduction of a minor and just focusing on the smartness of Margaery.

I guess they glossed over it as that isn't seen as important, ASOIAF relies on the real world Medieval standards and morality of sex and marriage. If a girl has started menstruation and a boy can perform the task they are seen as fit to marry, those attitudes are rightly condemned by modern standards in most of the developed and developing nations but back then and in this story its the norm.

It has to be said the books never took that route though, Tommen was far younger than they are presenting him in the show and the Tyrells seduction was centred around Margery filling Tommens life with fun, games and kittens and young kids his own age with Ser Loras introducing him to the gallantry and pageantry associated with being a Knight.

GRRM has expressed worry over how he might not be around to finish his books. I think the White Walker at the end was an attempt to give some sort of context for future episodes if he's gone. Although the fact that the boys were been turned into White Walkers didn't really come as any sort of surprise.

J Tyran:

Grahav:

J Tyran:

Actually its very clever and really sets up the awkward relationship and conflict between, the Tyrells (mostly Margery but also Loras who started training Tommen as a Knight), Tommen and Cersei as they compete for his heart and mind (or more accurately his arse, because its on the throne) which kinda comes out of nowhere in the books. Making that one of the key story lines of the Court in Kings Landing much earlier makes sense.

In terms of power play and show narrative it is pretty clever.

What I didn't like is that Greg seemed to gloss over the seduction of a minor and just focusing on the smartness of Margaery.

I guess they glossed over it as that isn't seen as important, ASOIAF relies on the real world Medieval standards and morality of sex and marriage. If a girl has started menstruation and a boy can perform the task they are seen as fit to marry, those attitudes are rightly condemned by modern standards in most of the developed and developing nations but back then and in this story its the norm.

It has to be said the books never took that route though, Tommen was far younger than they are presenting him in the show and the Tyrells seduction was centred around Margery filling Tommens life with fun, games and kittens and young kids his own age with Ser Loras introducing him to the gallantry and pageantry associated with being a Knight.

When you say "they" are you referring to the characters, the producers or the critics?

Part of the show is the critic and view of medieval morality by a modern audience. Seducing a boy is okay to Westeros but is it okay to a modern audience? There is a lot of critical analysis on the different aspects of honor, ethics in war, family, rule by heritage, vengeance, gender expectations from those times to nowadays. But the seduction of a young boy is just glossed over? That may imply that the critic's ethic in relation to that is not different from the scenario's ethic.

If it was a guy seducing the future young queen, how would it be... Try to imagine, let's say... What is happening right now between Littlefinger and Sansa.

What I have seen around is people saying:

a)How Tommen is lucky, like Margaery is giving him a big gift, you can bet is much of this sayings are not being told as total jokes;
b)Or people saying that she is not seducing him at all and there was nothing sexual in that scene.

Implications:

a)There is no damage done by female pedophiles.
b)There is no such thing as female pedophiles.

Grahav:

J Tyran:

Grahav:

In terms of power play and show narrative it is pretty clever.

What I didn't like is that Greg seemed to gloss over the seduction of a minor and just focusing on the smartness of Margaery.

I guess they glossed over it as that isn't seen as important, ASOIAF relies on the real world Medieval standards and morality of sex and marriage. If a girl has started menstruation and a boy can perform the task they are seen as fit to marry, those attitudes are rightly condemned by modern standards in most of the developed and developing nations but back then and in this story its the norm.

It has to be said the books never took that route though, Tommen was far younger than they are presenting him in the show and the Tyrells seduction was centred around Margery filling Tommens life with fun, games and kittens and young kids his own age with Ser Loras introducing him to the gallantry and pageantry associated with being a Knight.

When you say "they" are you referring to the characters, the producers or the critics?

Part of the show is the critic and view of medieval morality by a modern audience. Seducing a boy is okay to Westeros but is it okay to a modern audience? There is a lot of critical analysis on the different aspects of honor, ethics in war, family, rule by heritage, vengeance, gender expectations from those times to nowadays. But the seduction of a young boy is just glossed over? That may imply that the critic's ethic in relation to that is not different from the scenario's ethic.

If it was a guy seducing the future young queen, how would it be... Try to imagine, let's say... What is happening right now between Littlefinger and Sansa.

What I have seen around is people saying:

a)How Tommen is lucky, like Margaery is giving him a big gift, you can bet is much of this sayings are not being told as total jokes;
b)Or people saying that she is not seducing him at all and there was nothing sexual in that scene.

Implications:

a)There is no damage done by female pedophiles.
b)There is no such thing as female pedophiles.

I guess we are seeing it differently, I don't see it as a big deal as the book and the show make it pretty it clear that they go by the archaic real world attitudes to sex and marriage. The critical analysis comes after, there is no need to do that in the show and just play it straight and leave it for meta discussion later.

As for peoples attitudes I think the first one is coming from a lot of people simply thinking "damn I wish when I was a young a hot girl like Margery wanted to bang me!" rather than anything sinister, the second attitude is more worrying because its pretty obvious what was going on. She was seducing him and making it damn clear that creeping in of a night would a regular and off screen occurrence so they didn't have to actually have any sexual activity with a young actor.

J Tyran:

I guess we are seeing it differently, I don't see it as a big deal as the book and the show make it pretty it clear that they go by the archaic real world attitudes to sex and marriage. The critical analysis comes after, there is no need to do that in the show and just play it straight and leave it for meta discussion later.

As for peoples attitudes I think the first one is coming from a lot of people simply thinking "damn I wish when I was a young a hot girl like Margery wanted to bang me!" rather than anything sinister, the second attitude is more worrying because its pretty obvious what was going on. She was seducing him and making it damn clear that creeping in of a night would a regular and off screen occurrence so they didn't have to actually have any sexual activity with a young actor.

Agreed, it is true that some people are just placing themselves in Tommen's pants just to get Margaery. Some people in former seasons were thinking basically the same in relation to Aria and Gendry.

We were really talking about different things. You about the show's/producer's view on it (which was pretty acurate) and me about the critics and viewers position about it.

 

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