Escapist Podcast: Bonus: Game of Thronescast, "Breaker of Chains" and "Oathkeeper"

Bonus: Game of Thronescast, "Breaker of Chains" and "Oathkeeper"

In this bonus Podcast, The Escapist crew talks about the Game of Thrones' episodes "Breaker of Chains" and "Oathkeeper." Obviously, there will be spoilers!

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GRRM does NOT have a Twitter account, nor a Facebook account - he hasn't commented on the "rape scene".
Source: http://grrm.livejournal.com/368037.html

Wait, did Janelle and Josh switch jobs? Or did someone make a boo-boo in the description.

I really wish the discussion of rape in GoTs would stop, if you're discussing rape then you're not discussing GoTs at all, you're discussing your own morality and perhaps the insecurity of your morality.

Like it or not, rape is an everyday thing in GoTs. If you can't empathize with that, it's fine, but there are much deeper things to talk about in GoTs than "is it rape".

It's like talking about cannibalism in Hannibal, it's a very thin and egotistical discussion about your own morals, there are much deeper things to talk about than "is he eating people" and "is it right".

it would be great if the discussions are more about the show than you, would be even better if you bring movie Bob, Jim and Yahtzee into the discussion.

ExtraDebit:
I really wish the discussion of rape in GoTs would stop, if you're discussing rape then you're not discussing GoTs at all, you're discussing your own morality and perhaps the insecurity of your morality.

Like it or not, rape is an everyday thing in GoTs. If you can't empathize with that, it's fine, but there are much deeper things to talk about in GoTs than "is it rape".

It's like talking about cannibalism in Hannibal, it's a very thin and egotistical discussion about your own morals, there are much deeper things to talk about than "is he eating people" and "is it right".

it would be great if the discussions are more about the show than you, would be even better if you bring movie Bob, Jim and Yahtzee into the discussion.

The effects of said event are what people mainly have a problem with. It's inconsistent, to the point of being straight up weird, that Jamie's character arc, which has been otherwise well paced, suddenly gets completely halted with a delayed 360. Empathy comes in that I as a person cannot relate to the character in any conceivable way, especially given that the last episode completely ignores it happens and makes it look like we're supposed to pat him on the back because Cersei is being a big meanie face.

In short: the rape doesn't only make him look bad, it makes his character development inconsistent; this is going to only get weirder as the later this season gets since it is never going to be acknowledged: it's dissonant with what we actually saw and what was supposed to be shown.

I imagine they don't bring the "personalities" on the show because of distance and scheduling constraints. (I know I know, webcams and stuff)

ExtraDebit:
I really wish the discussion of rape in GoTs would stop, if you're discussing rape then you're not discussing GoTs at all, you're discussing your own morality and perhaps the insecurity of your morality.

Like it or not, rape is an everyday thing in GoTs. If you can't empathize with that, it's fine, but there are much deeper things to talk about in GoTs than "is it rape".

It's like talking about cannibalism in Hannibal, it's a very thin and egotistical discussion about your own morals, there are much deeper things to talk about than "is he eating people" and "is it right".

it would be great if the discussions are more about the show than you, would be even better if you bring movie Bob, Jim and Yahtzee into the discussion.

I understand that you may not like rape-talk and I'm sure you've had people push their opinions on you before and that can be tiresome.
But it is a discussion that is important to many people. We could also be discussing the colour of arya stark's hair. Whether it's deep or not is irrelevant.

It's quite clearly not rape in the books, where cersei starts to say "Welcome, home brother".
Although rape isn't quite the crime in the culture of game of thrones it certainly is viewed as 'ignoble' by their morals.

And the reason why it's important is because it seems to go against every development that Jaime Lannister was making.
It's not impossible that he would do it, but to apparantly not feel any remorse about it, is rather jarring.

Of course. Why would he feel remorse if it wasn't rape?

That's why it's an important point. And the fact that we're not all agreeing on whether the scene as depicted was or wasn't rape is actually very interesting and tells us a lot about how we look at a sexual scenario differently.

Ferisar:
snip

dunam:
snip

Speaking mainly as a guy, I can tell you that where sex is concern we do alot of illogical things and things that from a third person point of view doesn't make sense, especially when we're teens.

I can empathize with Jaime EVEN if it's rape because the dude been tie up to a post for months and sitting on his own shit and have his hand chopped off. Sailors that went through less are just as horny.

In addition both from the books and the series, Jamie was never portrait as a hero, he's always complicated character that's never just about being good or bad, it just baffles me that people can't see him rape cersi, despite the development he went through, if it is indeed rape.

The beauty of GoTs characters is that they are multidimensional, they are never truly good or truly bad.

ExtraDebit:

Speaking mainly as a guy, I can tell you that where sex is concern we do alot of illogical things and things that from a third person point of view doesn't make sense, especially when we're teens.

I can empathize with Jaime EVEN if it's rape because the dude been tie up to a post for months and sitting on his own shit and have his hand chopped off. Sailors that went through less are just as horny.

In addition both from the books and the series, Jamie was never portrait as a hero, he's always complicated character that's never just about being good or bad, it just baffles me that people can't see him rape cersi, despite the development he went through, if it is indeed rape.

The beauty of GoTs characters is that they are multidimensional, they are never truly good or truly bad.

He is rich as a Lannister. If he's just horny, it's easy to get his fix in one of king's landing whorehouses.

So you actually do want to discuss this thing. Confusing.

Maybe because the books have informed my veiw, I never thought Jamie was raping Cersi. But I guess people who hadn't did. Very muddy scene in the end.

Also that guy asking about the winkin and whatever sounds like a dick.

ExtraDebit:

Ferisar:
snip

dunam:
snip

Speaking mainly as a guy, I can tell you that where sex is concern we do alot of illogical things and things that from a third person point of view doesn't make sense, especially when we're teens.

I can empathize with Jaime EVEN if it's rape because the dude been tie up to a post for months and sitting on his own shit and have his hand chopped off. Sailors that went through less are just as horny.

In addition both from the books and the series, Jamie was never portrait as a hero, he's always complicated character that's never just about being good or bad, it just baffles me that people can't see him rape cersi, despite the development he went through, if it is indeed rape.

The beauty of GoTs characters is that they are multidimensional, they are never truly good or truly bad.

Except I never said that he was a one-dimensional character that was headed for a heroic story arc, I said that it creates a discrepancy in tone between the scene and the rest of the show.

The show will go on to completely ignore that it ever happened, despite it having definitely happened. The scene was played as if it was a power-fueled spiteful event, yet the show is treating it as shrug-worthy. It's also not what was in the books, but that's an entirely different matter and conversation.

Is Jamie suddenly not a fairly extensive character? No. It's just that "multi-dimensional" doesn't mean freedom to be schizophrenic. There needs to be consistency, at least in some form, otherwise it just comes off as poorly done. If what happened was acknowledged an episode later (even by his own character) then yeah, I'd say it wouldn't be such a big deal because it would make some tangible sense (i.e., a revenge-fueled moment of losing self-control to keep with the idea of downfall that Jamie's character has experienced throughout the last season's shanaynays). However, it isn't. It's just kind of... there except it's neither there for even the basest of TnA nor to deliver exposition since the rest of the show world is content to ignore it.

Ferisar:

ExtraDebit:

Ferisar:
snip

dunam:
snip

Speaking mainly as a guy, I can tell you that where sex is concern we do alot of illogical things and things that from a third person point of view doesn't make sense, especially when we're teens.

I can empathize with Jaime EVEN if it's rape because the dude been tie up to a post for months and sitting on his own shit and have his hand chopped off. Sailors that went through less are just as horny.

In addition both from the books and the series, Jamie was never portrait as a hero, he's always complicated character that's never just about being good or bad, it just baffles me that people can't see him rape cersi, despite the development he went through, if it is indeed rape.

The beauty of GoTs characters is that they are multidimensional, they are never truly good or truly bad.

Except I never said that he was a one-dimensional character that was headed for a heroic story arc, I said that it creates a discrepancy in tone between the scene and the rest of the show.

The show will go on to completely ignore that it ever happened, despite it having definitely happened. The scene was played as if it was a power-fueled spiteful event, yet the show is treating it as shrug-worthy. It's also not what was in the books, but that's an entirely different matter and conversation.

Is Jamie suddenly not a fairly extensive character? No. It's just that "multi-dimensional" doesn't mean freedom to be schizophrenic. There needs to be consistency, at least in some form, otherwise it just comes off as poorly done. If what happened was acknowledged an episode later (even by his own character) then yeah, I'd say it wouldn't be such a big deal because it would make some tangible sense (i.e., a revenge-fueled moment of losing self-control to keep with the idea of downfall that Jamie's character has experienced throughout the last season's shanaynays). However, it isn't. It's just kind of... there except it's neither there for even the basest of TnA nor to deliver exposition since the rest of the show world is content to ignore it.

People aren't always consistent even in real life, so why can't a character from a tv series be inconsistent? And what exactly is this inconsistency you speak of? If He raped cersei so what? His character would totally do it, he pushed bran off a building for sex you think he wouldn't rape for it?

Edit: when I say "sex" I mean specifically Cersei's pussy.

However my problem with the podcast isn't that they talk about inconsistency with Jaime's character, that could be a totally interesting discussion but they were discussing "is it rape" and go on and on with "it's rape" , "it isn't rape", "it's not rape in the book" etc. They never talked about the significance of if it's rape. I mean even if it's rape, so what?

It's good that these episodes give everyone a chance to explain their personal views on morality.

Am I a terrible person for not giving any thought to the, apparently, world-shattering ramifications of whether or not it was rape?

ExtraDebit:

Ferisar:

ExtraDebit:

Speaking mainly as a guy, I can tell you that where sex is concern we do alot of illogical things and things that from a third person point of view doesn't make sense, especially when we're teens.

I can empathize with Jaime EVEN if it's rape because the dude been tie up to a post for months and sitting on his own shit and have his hand chopped off. Sailors that went through less are just as horny.

In addition both from the books and the series, Jamie was never portrait as a hero, he's always complicated character that's never just about being good or bad, it just baffles me that people can't see him rape cersi, despite the development he went through, if it is indeed rape.

The beauty of GoTs characters is that they are multidimensional, they are never truly good or truly bad.

Except I never said that he was a one-dimensional character that was headed for a heroic story arc, I said that it creates a discrepancy in tone between the scene and the rest of the show.

The show will go on to completely ignore that it ever happened, despite it having definitely happened. The scene was played as if it was a power-fueled spiteful event, yet the show is treating it as shrug-worthy. It's also not what was in the books, but that's an entirely different matter and conversation.

Is Jamie suddenly not a fairly extensive character? No. It's just that "multi-dimensional" doesn't mean freedom to be schizophrenic. There needs to be consistency, at least in some form, otherwise it just comes off as poorly done. If what happened was acknowledged an episode later (even by his own character) then yeah, I'd say it wouldn't be such a big deal because it would make some tangible sense (i.e., a revenge-fueled moment of losing self-control to keep with the idea of downfall that Jamie's character has experienced throughout the last season's shanaynays). However, it isn't. It's just kind of... there except it's neither there for even the basest of TnA nor to deliver exposition since the rest of the show world is content to ignore it.

People aren't always consistent even in real life, so why can't a character from a tv series be inconsistent? And what exactly is this inconsistency you speak of? If He raped cersei so what? His character would totally do it, he pushed bran off a building for sex you think he wouldn't rape for it?

Edit: when I say "sex" I mean specifically Cersei's pussy.

However my problem with the podcast isn't that they talk about inconsistency with Jaime's character, that could be a totally interesting discussion but they were discussing "is it rape" and go on and on with "it's rape" , "it isn't rape", "it's not rape in the book" etc. They never talked about the significance of if it's rape. I mean even if it's rape, so what?

I agree with you for the most part. 80 percent of people crying about this are book readers. The scene was not confusing it was rape. I don't care how it was in the book, this is not the book and from what was shown it was clear rape. I feel it was all well within Jamie's character.

 

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