Six Hearthstone Cards That Need a Good Nerf

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Six Hearthstone Cards That Need a Good Nerf

Any game with multiple build options is going to be a balancing act. Here are a few of Hearthstone's spinning plates that seem a little wobbly.

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I disagree with all but Ragnaros and possibly Leeroy.

Knife Juggler doesn't need a nerf, because his ability hits a random enemy target. Using the Leeroy example, it's not always guaranteed that the two daggers from Whelps will both hit Leeroy. One might hit the enemy hero, another might hit a different target altogether.

Murloc Warleader doesn't need a nerf, due to being an instant Silence target as soon as he is summoned and being reliant on having other Murlocs on his side of the board to re-coup his cost.

Savage Roar (and Bloodlust, which i'm surprised you didn't put in SR's place) is fine for a similar reason as the Warleader. It requires minions to be on the board to be of any use and most opponents will make sure a druid (or Shaman) has as few minions on the board as humanly possible to remove the threat.

Leeroy is a difficult one, due to requiring the opponent to be ready for him to drop at a moments notice. The only reason most people struggle with him is due to his popularity in aggro decks, which are practically the norm in HS (outside the EU, where Control Druid is the go-to deck at top level, IIRC). Once more cards are added which balance between Aggro and Control better, then Leeroy should cease to be a major issue.

As for Faceless Manipulator...no. He mimics a big, scary thing...but he can't do anything until the following turn. This gives opponents a full turn to deal with it, thereby making it a waste of 5 mana. With the Raggy example, most smart players will attempt to bait a Hex/Poly/Assassinate etc early, especially if they're relying on Ragnaros (or any high-end Legendary) in late game. Your example does also rely on everyone having such a card in their deck which, at the moment, most do. However, if Raggy does get nerfed, then FM might see less use and be seen as less OP.

I'm not sure what Ragnaros needs, possibly a mana cost increase to 9, thereby making it compete with the Dragon Aspects for a spot.

Ragnaros is pretty cheap for what he does. :)

I don't really agree with this list for the most part. Here are my opinions.

Knife Juggler. This is an undoubtedly excellent card. However, the thing with it is that you don't really want to play it too early, because then you won't be able to play other minions on the same turn, and thus won't be the most effective. And when it is played later, it becomes really easy to take out. Plus, it's random nature definitely decreases it's value, although it can make it a little more infuriating. I really don't think nerfing it's attack would change anything, though, because that's not the reason that people play the card.

Murloc Warleader. The thing with this card is in order for it to be effective, you need to already have a decent number of murlocs on the board the turn before you play it. Plus, as soon as it's taken out, all of it's buffs disappear. On top of that, murloc decks really aren't run very much at the moment, so nerfing a crucial part of an already underused deck seems completely unnecessary.

Savage Roar. Yes, the Savage Roar and Force of Nature combo is good, but it definitely isn't better than Pyroblast for the simple fact that it requires two cards as opposed to one, meaning you're less likely to get the combo and you have to invest more into it. Additionally, it can also be slowed down by using taunt, unlike Pyroblast which can only be stopped by Counterspell and Ice Block, both of which aren't used very much and are only available to mage. Finally, using Savage Roar in any other circumstance requires that you have a solid board, in which case you're probably already ahead, making this more of a win more type card. It's still good, don't get me wrong, but it's not blatantly overpowered.

Leeroy Jenkins. Leeroy is for sure annoying to play against. However, looking at it this way, without any other cards buffing him or otherwise interacting with him, he's basically a Fireball with a downside that you can only have one of. And doing anything to synergize with him again requires investing multiple cards into it, lowering the effectiveness. He also is very difficult to keep alive for more than one turn, even discounting the whelps. And Leeroy + Hounds was kind of BS, but with the Hounds nerf I think that it will be prohibitively expensive to get any of the good Hounds combos with Leeroy.

Faceless Manipulator. This will basically always be a good card. However, because he is completely reliant on there being other good cards on the field, making him a situational play. I've had games where I've sat on a Faceless Manipulator for an entire game because there was never a good time to play it. Good card, and can definitely swing games, but I wouldn't really say it needs a nerf.

Ragnaros. I think I'll actually agree with this one. Ragnaros is flat out too good. There are basically only two cards that I can think of that can reliably trade well with him (Mind Control and Big Game Hunter, if you're wondering), because even if you Polymorph or Assassinate him, he's already done the eight damage. I feel like what they should do is either reduce his attack so you don't have to lose a bunch of you're minions to kill him, or, preferably, change his attack so it's at the beginning of your turn, thus giving you're opponent more time to react (I think this change should also be implemented to Ysera). That said, it should be noted that I don't actually see him played nearly as much as I used to, which mostly has to do with the fact that the meta has shifted to a much more earlygame focus, meaning most of the time you're not going to be able to play your big powerful 8-drop.

Also, I want to add that Blizzard should be more willing to buff cards instead of just nerfing. I can understand them wanting to make minimal changes to balance because of how rapidly the metagame changes, but I really feel like a few buffs could really help some of the less played classes, and at the very least give some classes more viable options when it comes to making a deck. Ultimately though, none of this will really matter as soon as they add the next set of cards in, because then everything is going to change.

You called Sunwalker a he :( Even outside of WoW the female tauren get ignored.

As far as the article itself, not quite sure I agree with some of those. The game seems fairly balanced. Yeah Knife Juggler is good, and yeah Trump got lucky once with it knifing a Leeroy, but such is the problem when you play a card game with random elements.

ohnoitsabear:
[snip]
Also, I want to add that Blizzard should be more willing to buff cards instead of just nerfing. I can understand them wanting to make minimal changes to balance because of how rapidly the metagame changes, but I really feel like a few buffs could really help some of the less played classes, and at the very least give some classes more viable options when it comes to making a deck. Ultimately though, none of this will really matter as soon as they add the next set of cards in, because then everything is going to change.

As you say, the Naxx cards are going to change absolutely everything, and I can't wait to see it!

I'm curious to see whether they focus on balancing Naxx cards to be in line with the core selection, or if they balance core cards to accommodate the Naxx inclusions.

I anticipate at least a handful of balance patches in the months after Naxx hits, since it's so incredibly difficult to truly test balance without seeing what the community at large comes up with.

As to buffs, yeah, there are definitely a lot of cards that could use a good buff. I didn't get into that here simply because there are so many, as compared to those which I felt could use a nerf, which, as you can see, was only six.

Alcaste:
You called Sunwalker a he :( Even outside of WoW the female tauren get ignored.

As far as the article itself, not quite sure I agree with some of those. The game seems fairly balanced. Yeah Knife Juggler is good, and yeah Trump got lucky once with it knifing a Leeroy, but such is the problem when you play a card game with random elements.

D'oh! I've fixed the Sunwalker mention. Sorry about that, and thanks!

As to Leeroy getting knifed, I've suffered through that myself on more than one occasion. But that's not my main problem with the Juggler. My concern is that Knife Juggler's upside is significantly better than any other 3/2 for 2. It's a "one of these is not like the others" situation moreso than "Knife Juggler makes me auto-scoop." Perhaps it would be preferable to buff other 2-drops a hair.

Encaen:

Alcaste:
You called Sunwalker a he :( Even outside of WoW the female tauren get ignored.

As far as the article itself, not quite sure I agree with some of those. The game seems fairly balanced. Yeah Knife Juggler is good, and yeah Trump got lucky once with it knifing a Leeroy, but such is the problem when you play a card game with random elements.

D'oh! I've fixed the Sunwalker mention. Sorry about that, and thanks!

As to Leeroy getting knifed, I've suffered through that myself on more than one occasion. But that's not my main problem with the Juggler. My concern is that Knife Juggler's upside is significantly better than any other 3/2 for 2. It's a "one of these is not like the others" situation moreso than "Knife Juggler makes me auto-scoop." Perhaps it would be preferable to buff other 2-drops a hair.

One thing I found with Hearthstone is that Blizzard tends to generally make power = rarity in some regards. Yeah, Knife Juggler is better than Bloodfen Raptor. However, I wouldn't necessarily say it's better than Wild Pyromancer as they have different roles (For example, buffing other two drops...How would you buff wild pyromancer?). it's a vastly different system than Magic: The Gathering has where rarity has less bearing on power in the grand scheme of things. I don't think they can homogenize cards so that they're all balanced in all situations, either. Making knife juggler a 2/2 might work, but... Eh. It's hard to balance things with a random element. Making him only have 3 power suddenly drops him very hard down the list considering his rarity.

Blizzard has the luxury/curse of being able to rebalance cards after release. This is good because when situations like unleash the hounds comes up, they can address it. This is bad because it stifles people from finding ways around the metagame. I will admit though that hearthstone's metagame is very fluid even without intervention.

Given there's a bunch of ways to destroy your opponent when he commits to playing Rag that all cost half his mana cost or less (Polymorph, Hex, Naturalize, Big Game Hunter, Faceless Manipulator, etc.), it can be a huge tempo disadvantage to play him. I know I've won many a game where I BGH'd my opponent's turn 8 rag then played a 4/5 drop on top of it, then swung for lethal next turn with FoN/Savage Roar. Sure, if you don't have an answer he takes over the game, but that can be said for every 8-10 mana card (Hi, Ysera!).

Knife Juggler is good in arena but nowhere else and dies to every conceivable form of removal this side of Mortal Coil/Whilrwind.

Faceless Manipulator is only as good as the cards your opponent plays. If you copy your own creature, you were winning anyway. The only time he's gamebreaking is a situation like above where you Faceless Manip their Rag then BGH it (or shoot it with yours).

Murloc Warleader is fragile and it's fairly easy for nearly every class to prevent Murlocs from getting a big enough board presence for him to matter unless they get the nut draw (in which case they just win, but that can be said for many decks).

Savage Roar is only as good as the number of minions you have on the battlefield. It's pretty easy to keep the board clear or at parity. The combo with FoN is the only thing close to breaking it, but it only works if they have no taunt creatures and you spend your entire turn at 9 mana doing it. It's similar to the Grommash Hellscream/Inner Rage combo in that it's a lot of damage for basically your whole turn, normally saved as a finisher. If anything, by your logic, Bloodlust is better because Shamans have an ability that creates creatures and it gives an even bigger buff.

Shadowstep Leeroy is somewhat borderline, but that's a problem with Shadowstep, not Leeroy. The game really needs a big, dumb haste creature at legendary, and there it is.

Basically, UtH (i.e. the one that already just got nerfed) is the only one on this list that makes any sense. Honorable mentions that you didn't talk about for some reason include Equality, Truesilver Champion (for Arena), Ancient Watcher, Gadgetzan Auctioneer, and Shield Slam. I'm not sure any of those should be nerfed, but they're the ones on the border.

Hmmmm... my choices for "cards to nerf" would be: Flamestrike, Mind Control, and Pyroblast.

"Flamestrike" is just too damn powerful. I know the Mage is all about removal, but four damage against EVERY minion is just too much for that cost. Look at it this way: the Mage's hero power costs two mana and does a maximum of one damage. The "Flamestrike" costs seven mana and does a minimum of four (if you're silly enough to use it on a single minion), a maximum of twenty-eight (in extreme circumstances). At the very least you're unlikely to get less than twelve damage out of a single flamestrike, and potentially much more against minion-heavy decks like the Shaman. There are more balanced ways to get removal.

"Mind Control"... I guess it stops huge buffed minions being played against the Priest, but doesn't "Shadow Word Death" already accomplish that? The priest has so much potential for messing with big strong minions, and "Mind Control" on top of that just seems like overkill.

"Pyroblast"... True story. I went up against a mage as a priest in a ranked match, used "thoughtsteal" to get two of her cards, and got BOTH the mage's pyroblasts. Suffice to say, the game finished pretty hilariously when my healing-centric priest deck never went below twelve health and the mage happily let herself get to a low-health situation in order to keep stacking up minions. It didn't work out very well for her.

Anyway... "Pyroblast". You have to keep your health above ten when facing a mage, or you lose. The fireball is bad enough, but this is just really annoying.

This list is bad. The only card I agree with is Ragnaros. He's maybe one of the best legendaries. I'd personally like to see him made into a 0/8 card so that he's actually possible to silence. He's a game ender for taunt druid decks simply because no minions that the druid can place is actually able to survive more than one turn.

Hunters are frankly the one class that needs to be nerfed as a whole. Unleash the Hounds in particular. Shamans win so few games against hunters now, and there are so many of them that it's not even worth playing the class.

Unleash the Hounds also goes against what blizzard said about their cards. Blizzard outright stated that they would NEVER have a card that restricts what your opponent can play or what they can have in their hand. Unleash the Hounds, a single 2 cost card, singlehandedly stops Shamans and Paladins from using their hero powers, stops rush decks from working and often results in 20 to 0 health KOs.

Knife Juggler is fine. Faerie Dragon, Mad Bomber, Acidic Swamp Ooze and Wild Pyromancer are all competitive alternatives which will be better or worse than Knife Juggler depending on what kind of deck you're building.

Murloc Warleader is fine. Murlocs aren't OP in Arena or Constructed, and why would you compare them with Pirates? Pirates are terrible as a group. Some of them are situationally viable, but I don't agree with gimping Murlocs until they're as bad as Pirates.

Savage Roar merits a nerf. Not only is it too strong (14 damage from hand in a Force of Nature + Savage Roar combo is pretty crazy), it also makes one of Shaman's signature spells, Bloodlust, look pretty mediocre by comparison.

Leeroy merits a nerf. When you compare it with other Neutral Charge minions (Wolfrider, Arcane Golem, Reckless Rocketeer), Leeroy is simply too good at what he does and for what he costs; the borderline abuse cases you correctly point out, of Miracle Rogues with Shadowstep + Cold Blood and Hunters using Leeroy's whelps to their own advantage via Unleash the Hounds, are pretty lame.

Faceless Manipulator: No comment. I haven't used it enough to have an educated opinion about it.

Ragnaros: Disagree. Ragnaros is powerful in a way that is healthy for the game- unlike, say, Alexstrasza, who is the lynchpin of super boring control decks. Besides, Ragnaros has a cheap, popular hard-counter in Big Game Hunter, which is already a big drawback- if anything, I'm more worried about Ysera, who isn't affected by two of the most popular Neutral removal cards (Big Game Hunter and The Black Knight), is about as powerful as Ragnaros, and now doesn't even have to fear Tinkmaster.

In all, not a very good list, Josh. My biggest problem cards in Hearthstone right now are Sunfury Protector and Defender of Argus. Taunt is a good ability and you get meaningful tradeoffs between cards like Chillwind Yeti vs. Sen'jin Shieldmasta... but most other Neutral taunt minions are pretty awful- Boulderfist Ogre is just so much better than Lord of the Arena, for instance. This problem is bypassed in that any deck that wants Taunt can just get two Sunfury Protectors and two Defenders of Argus and solve their taunt problem just like that- now everyone can be a Taunt minion! Are you down to 10 life? No worries, just play two Molten Giants and a Sunfury Protector and you've got two Ironbark Protectors for 2 mana!

The versatility and power of Sunfury Protector and Defender of Argus kind of renders the choice between Taunt minions and taunt-less minions moot, it dramatically restricts the useful design space for new Taunt minions, and it dumbs down deck construction options with regards to Taunt options.

So yeah, more and better Taunt minions, as well as big nerfs or redesigns to Defender of Argus and Sunfury Protector, would be great for Hearthstone.

Actually having some cards be very strong is inevitable in and game like this. That's kind of the problem with online card games, everyone wants their own build to be viable. If you try and 'balance' too widely you end up pleasing no-one. They need to avoid one deck being absolutely dominant yes but they need to work on how different deck-builds interact with those decks so a metagame balance can emerge.

I disagree with all of these. You listed good cards, not cards that need a nerf. None of these cards is dominating the metagame.

UTH on the other hand, was distorting the metagame to the point that hunters were massively overrepresented and all of them played UTH. Not only that, but UTH punishes a basic game mechanic too heavily. Most classes can't play around it or prepare for it at all as the only thing that avoids it is ignoring the board completely and punching face, which only three classes do effectively: micracle rogue, burn mage and weapon warrior (well, and hunters themselves).

Yes, Knife Juggler is arguably the best two-drop in the game. No, that puts him nowhere near nerf-worthy.

What I would like to see instead, is an increase in rarity for some cards. It needs to be far less likely for a mage to have four goddam flamestrikes in arena. And Paladins with 5 truesilver champions should be made to sit on them, point first.

But that wouldn't impact constructed at all. By and large, constructed is in a fine place now that UTH got nerfed. (I would even like to see it nerfed even more, so that it only puts an amount of dogs in play that evens the board; meaning you get one less dog if you put a buzzard down first. It got brought down in casting cost so that hunters have an earlier board clear. It's sad that it's not used as board clear, but as a direct damage spell or card draw.)

Knife juggler is only good in arena, even half the zoo builds don't run it in constructed.

The main reason knife juggler and ragnaros are not OP is because they are subject to RNG. Knife juggler and rag can swing the game in your favor really easily, but if they drop the ball you are now in a crappy position.

Leeroy is on the borderline, he serves an important roll as big dumb charger, it is his synergy with UtH and low enough cost for the damage with rogues that might tip the balance. But that can be fixed with the current nerf to UtH and reworking shadowstep (and to a lesser extent, maybe preparation.)

If you are really interested in Hearthstone discussions, Team Liquid is giving Hearthstone the same level of dedication as StarCraft these days with a new site dedicated to Hearthstone.

The randomness of the juggler makes it hard to play in consistent controll decks. And besides I'll pretty much play oozes over juglers every day of the weak because I generally struggle against warriors and paladins and in more then half of the cases your 2 drop will get immediatly traded anyway.

Long story short it's situational and the pure fact that it's random will make pretty much any nerf rendering it unplayable.

Leeroy only appears a bit crazy in miracle rogue shadowstep cold blood crazyness decks, and the hunter/unleash combo. on it's own it's just a wacky removal with potential of pushing a finisher.

rag, well, strong but since you will always run into controll warriors and druids, every deck will need big removal in some way.

I think only cards that every deck has to play (like the old novice engineer) should be nerfed because if it is manditory you might as well remove it and have more variety. And the razors edge is thin, in general experience most cards that got nerfed even slightly dropped completely off the grid. I think only defender of argus remains a staple even after it's nerf. I might have overlooked some.

TheMadDoctorsCat:
Hmmmm... my choices for "cards to nerf" would be: Flamestrike, Mind Control, and Pyroblast.

"Flamestrike" is just too damn powerful. I know the Mage is all about removal, but four damage against EVERY minion is just too much for that cost. Look at it this way: the Mage's hero power costs two mana and does a maximum of one damage. The "Flamestrike" costs seven mana and does a minimum of four (if you're silly enough to use it on a single minion), a maximum of twenty-eight (in extreme circumstances). At the very least you're unlikely to get less than twelve damage out of a single flamestrike, and potentially much more against minion-heavy decks like the Shaman. There are more balanced ways to get removal.

"Mind Control"... I guess it stops huge buffed minions being played against the Priest, but doesn't "Shadow Word Death" already accomplish that? The priest has so much potential for messing with big strong minions, and "Mind Control" on top of that just seems like overkill.

"Pyroblast"... True story. I went up against a mage as a priest in a ranked match, used "thoughtsteal" to get two of her cards, and got BOTH the mage's pyroblasts. Suffice to say, the game finished pretty hilariously when my healing-centric priest deck never went below twelve health and the mage happily let herself get to a low-health situation in order to keep stacking up minions. It didn't work out very well for her.

Anyway... "Pyroblast". You have to keep your health above ten when facing a mage, or you lose. The fireball is bad enough, but this is just really annoying.

As a Mage main I have to say that Flamestrike is actually really, really easy to play around. Does she have cards? Does she have 7 mana? (6 + Coin if she went second) Limit the amount of minions you play as much as possible and for the love of god don't overcommit and drop your entire hand at once... She will eventually be forced to play it on two sub optimal minions out of necessity or pure frustration. Pyroblast is too mainstream anyway, you want to look out for the 12 damage double Fireball. Also if you use Spell Power as an excuse just no. I expect everyone to instantly destroy any Spell Power minions a Mage plays, you do not let that shit live.

Anything that costs 10 mana is sort of a risk in and of itself, it's why I replaced Mind Control with Ysera. Yay you've just taken a decent minion, oh wait no nevermind he just played a better minion and probably was holding onto a removal card for this very moment. Best card 10/10.

I'm playing a load of Priest right now and the theme is battlecry heals and soft mind control (1 Cabal Shadow Priest and 1 Mind Control Tech) with a side of not scum. No DS/IF combo, no Northshires, no fucking card clones and no Mind Control. I'm attempting to bring some decency back to the Priest playing community singlehandedly.

OT: Eh, I have been having trouble with Knife Jugglers lately but I wouldn't say they need a nerf. Doggies can still fuck off, It have to use my aforementioned anti Flamestrike minion limit but even that isn't concrete when he has enough mana to drop everything with a Hyena. Nerf a Murloc? Murloc decks are terrible as long as your deck has a hint of mid/lategame and/or board clear and you don't get a totally awful opening hand.

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame and Faceless? Really? I mean I can have 3 Etherial Arcanists down in my Secret Mage deck but it's their fault that they didn't shut down a stacking creature immediately. It's not that those cards are overpowered it's that they're sort of difficult to play around. I've never really been scared of Rag in my life, between Leeroy, Polymorph, Big Game, SW:D and god knows how many other removal spells there are he can be dealt with. Mostly just use Big Game Hunter though... God I love that man.

The Wykydtron:

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame

Because Big Game Hunter in your hand makes you very sad when playing against Zoo Warlock and Hunter, some of the strongest decks around.

Hm, I'm not sure any of these NEED nerfs the way the Hounds did

Zato-1:

The Wykydtron:

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame

Because Big Game Hunter in your hand makes you very sad when playing against Zoo Warlock and Hunter, some of the strongest decks around.

Am I missing something but how is having a single BGH in your deck such a bad move against a Hunter or Warlock? I don't particularly pay close attention to the meta but people do tend to play big cards at some point in the game (again Rag.) He's even a failsafe if something like a Hyena gets too big, something that can happen instantly because lol Doggies. It's only one card in 30 so even if he's not the best in that particular matchup you have another 29 cards to use. Hunter and Warlock aren't the only things played (buff something Paladin, I dare you) and I never really have trouble with Warlocks anyway. Well maybe that's because all of them are playing Murloc decks and they are really freaking bad. I hit around 10/15hp on average then manage to get leverage and wipe the board and a Murloc deck can't continue to function once it gets shut down once.

How about an android port? I'd buy it.

The Wykydtron:

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame and Faceless? Really? I mean I can have 3 Etherial Arcanists down in my Secret Mage deck but it's their fault that they didn't shut down a stacking creature immediately. It's not that those cards are overpowered it's that they're sort of difficult to play around. I've never really been scared of Rag in my life, between Leeroy, Polymorph, Big Game, SW:D and god knows how many other removal spells there are he can be dealt with. Mostly just use Big Game Hunter though... God I love that man.

Big Game Hunter is a weak card that doesn't get used a lot of the time. There's also not too much point to him. Every class has one or more card that can remove any minion from the board, however, it's still not 100% that you'll draw the said cards.

Ragnaros is just a trouble card because he's an 8 cost that gets value immediately as he's played, with no possible drawback. He's not game breakingly overpowered, but it's such a nightmare when you know the one legendary that everyone's running is Ragnaros.

God forbid you're playing a Druid. Naturalize is such a shitty card, and any minion that the Druid can play can get killed in 1 turn by Rag. If it isn't killed, then chances are the Rag player will have another removal card.

The only cards which I think need a drastic rethinking are Pyroblast and Mind Control, because neither of those cards are just any fun to play against.

Pyroblast is unfun because for a great many classes there's just nothing you can do about it. If you had a rocky start against a mage but then went the rest of the game absolutely dominating them, it wont matter because if you can't kill them before 10 mana it's over. That's no fun, it's just frustrating.

Mind Control meanwhile has much the same problem. Against any class other than priest there's always those last-ditch moments where maybe you've been doing badly but you just got the 'perfect' minion to help, and suddenly the game is re-invigorated. But with priests that just can't happen, you're too nervous to play any big creatures late-game because you know they'll just get stolen and when finally you are forced to play them, well, they get stolen and you've lost without even having had a chance to fight back.

It takes an entire dynamic out of the match. It's just no fun.

Everything else can be annoying at times or can be frustrating, but can also be worked around. The Force of Nature/Savage Roar combo? Powerful, but it actually takes two cards to pull off and can also be prevented or mitigated via something as simple as a weakling taunt minion. Murloc War Leader? Annoying as hell, but murloc are weak on their own. Prevent them from building up numbers and you should be just fine. Leeroy? Sure he hits hard and has a low cost, which means rogues can do some truly crazy stuff with him, but again it takes effort and can be prevented and mitigated.

Even Ragnaros, who's an annoying SOB who probably should be cost more for how powerful he is, is still at least fair. Flood the board with cheap minions and suddenly that 8 dmg chance is picking off Loot Hoarders instead of doing anything useful. Or, y'know, just shoot the guy with a Big Game Hunter. I keep a pair of those guys in my druid deck for just such occasions (Since Druids lack good big removal otherwise).

The Madman:

Mind Control meanwhile has much the same problem. Against any class other than priest there's always those last-ditch moments where maybe you've been doing badly but you just got the 'perfect' minion to help, and suddenly the game is re-invigorated. But with priests that just can't happen, you're too nervous to play any big creatures late-game because you know they'll just get stolen and when finally you are forced to play them, well, they get stolen and you've lost without even having had a chance to fight back.

Priests are countered by 4 damage minions. They really struggle with removing any minion that hits for exactly 4 damage. Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Azure Drake, Yeti, anything.

Keep some 4 damage minions in your deck (they're mostly really good cards anyway) and try and draw until you have some removal, then it's incredibly easy to keep board control against a priest.

Don't play big minions either if it's turn 10. Then they can't mind control anything.

Like everyone else, I disagree with just about everything, exept maybe Ragnaros. I like the 8/8/8 symmetry the card has going on but there is no sense for a card that's mor powerful than dragons to be cheaoer than one.

As for nerfs I WOULD like... is one mana increase enough for UTH? it's not like it's always a turn 3/5 play (with buzzard). Limiting the number of hounds is what the card needs, though that would make the card kinda silly...

Mages are overpowered, in my opinion. They have arguably the best hero power, combined with the best direct damage, the best stall and most removal spells in the game. Something has to go. there are many options, say, increasing Flamestrike cost, dropping mirror image toughness, making vaporize damage based removal...you get the idea. There isn't really a single card, but a combination of various powerful effects makes mages very versatile and dangerous.

And finally, some buffs: Priests need heals. I'm not saying I want greater heal back, but I would like another tool into the Auchenai soulpriest toolbox. Weirdly enough, the priest is lacking a targeted large heal.

Certain 1-toughness creatures, like dust devil and the windfury snake are dead cards against 1-damage hero powers. (mage, rogue, druid) Having a good card that has a 33% chance of being a dead card is just bad design, and it would be better if this was fixed.

...hmmm. I guess that's all. Don't want to get greedy.

Honesly, I disagree with all of these.

Rag: There are a lot of ways to deal with Rag: BGH, Polymorph, Hex, Assassinate, a simple burst of dmg, Mind Control (although they'd have to be pretty dumb to play rag without fishing for Mind Controls first -unless they played him on 8 that is). Heck, if you're a swarm deck, you can ignore him and go for the face if you can confidently set up for lethal. Also, he's 8 mana so they probably aren't going to be doing much else that turn, if anything.

Warleader: No, just no. It's the only thing that makes the Murloc deck work. The sad thing is, Murloc isn't even the best aggro deck. Aggro hunter, mage, and Zooloc are all better (Zooloc especially so).

Savage Roar: Yes it's great in a combo but taunts get in the way of it. And if we're really wanting to nerf stuff based on them doing more dmg than Pyroblast (which isn't even that good anymore), you should be calling for them to nerf Fireball. Two of those is 12 dmg for 8 mana and they're effected by spell dmg, unlike the combo you're talking about.

Knife Juggler: He's extremely easy to remove. Yes, he can fuck with divine shield and will be a nuisance if you can't get rid of him, but that don't really happen that often. Plus you're relying on the RNG gods with him (another reason I don't think Rag is too bad).

Leeroy: He's 6 dmg for 4 mana and he can't get around taunts. However, given just how many decks put him to good use (in comobos, he's not that bad on his own), I do think that out of all the cards you listed, he's the only one even close to needing a nerf.

Again, I'd rather see them buff underused cards than nerf all the popular ones. I do think that with all the cards they've nerfed so far, all of the cards deserved it (just not to the extent that Pagle and Tinkmaster got).

Edit: Removed the random aside about not being able to quote. Had some weird extension that was interfering. It sneaked into my Chrome but I found it and killed it.

Keep in mind that a regular fireball is a better deal than a single use Leeroy so you do need to get a combo out of him.

The Madman:
The only cards which I think need a drastic rethinking are Pyroblast and Mind Control, because neither of those cards are just any fun to play against.

Both of these are 10 mana cards though, you cannot play them in a turn where you do ANYTHING else and if you draw them earlier than turn 10 you've got dead weight in your hand. Both open you up to being overrun before you even hit turn 10.

PB has a very low damage to mana ratio, hell, two fireballs do more damage for less mana. Yes, two PBs leave you nearly dead but that's two cards that could completely ruin the opponent's early game.

MC is 10 mana for what amounts to a faceless and a shadow word. Again a dead weight for the early match, its only saving grace is that its like removal and playing a minion in one card. It's only worth the cost when there's something valuable to control, a board full of 4-5 costers won't really change much from an application of MC, a flamestrike is much nastier for most boards than MC.

The Wykydtron:

Zato-1:

The Wykydtron:

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame

Because Big Game Hunter in your hand makes you very sad when playing against Zoo Warlock and Hunter, some of the strongest decks around.

Am I missing something but how is having a single BGH in your deck such a bad move against a Hunter or Warlock? I don't particularly pay close attention to the meta but people do tend to play big cards at some point in the game (again Rag.) He's even a failsafe if something like a Hyena gets too big, something that can happen instantly because lol Doggies. It's only one card in 30 so even if he's not the best in that particular matchup you have another 29 cards to use. Hunter and Warlock aren't the only things played (buff something Paladin, I dare you) and I never really have trouble with Warlocks anyway. Well maybe that's because all of them are playing Murloc decks and they are really freaking bad. I hit around 10/15hp on average then manage to get leverage and wipe the board and a Murloc deck can't continue to function once it gets shut down once.

He said Zoo Warlock, and by Hunter he probably meant the typical rushdown hunter, both of those decks almost never have big minions, maybe King Crush but even that's rare.

Vedrenne:
I disagree with all but Ragnaros and possibly Leeroy.

Knife Juggler doesn't need a nerf, because his ability hits a random enemy target. Using the Leeroy example, it's not always guaranteed that the two daggers from Whelps will both hit Leeroy. One might hit the enemy hero, another might hit a different target altogether.

Murloc Warleader doesn't need a nerf, due to being an instant Silence target as soon as he is summoned and being reliant on having other Murlocs on his side of the board to re-coup his cost.

Savage Roar (and Bloodlust, which i'm surprised you didn't put in SR's place) is fine for a similar reason as the Warleader. It requires minions to be on the board to be of any use and most opponents will make sure a druid (or Shaman) has as few minions on the board as humanly possible to remove the threat.

Leeroy is a difficult one, due to requiring the opponent to be ready for him to drop at a moments notice. The only reason most people struggle with him is due to his popularity in aggro decks, which are practically the norm in HS (outside the EU, where Control Druid is the go-to deck at top level, IIRC). Once more cards are added which balance between Aggro and Control better, then Leeroy should cease to be a major issue.

As for Faceless Manipulator...no. He mimics a big, scary thing...but he can't do anything until the following turn. This gives opponents a full turn to deal with it, thereby making it a waste of 5 mana. With the Raggy example, most smart players will attempt to bait a Hex/Poly/Assassinate etc early, especially if they're relying on Ragnaros (or any high-end Legendary) in late game. Your example does also rely on everyone having such a card in their deck which, at the moment, most do. However, if Raggy does get nerfed, then FM might see less use and be seen as less OP.

I'm not sure what Ragnaros needs, possibly a mana cost increase to 9, thereby making it compete with the Dragon Aspects for a spot.

actualy savage roar can deal 14 damage without having single unit in board in previous turn. savage roar + force of nature is common game finisher combination and with any other unit its usualy 20+ damage (oftenly its imposible to clear late game druid board past turn 7 every time)
and problem with leeroy is the fact you can deal 0ver 20+ damage with him using rogue or shaman in single turn. so nerfing him so he cant be targeted by spells by player who summoned him would most likely make him balanced.
otherwise i agree with you juggler and murlock warleader wont rly need nerf and ragnaros would be fine with 9 mana

The Madman:
The only cards which I think need a drastic rethinking are Pyroblast and Mind Control, because neither of those cards are just any fun to play against.
.

both of those cards are predy much dead past rank 15 so i dont see reason to change them unless you are talking about buff

Basically, nope. Everything is playable against there:
1) Ragnaros might be the only exception here, but it's still 8 RANDOM damage. I've watched him slam into a Loot hoarder and laughed. Hard :P If you get to the point where your opponent can throw out any of the powerful legendaries and don't have a way to finish them off or remove the card, you were likely on the way to a loss anyway. Most class legendaries are powerful as hell as well and deserve being on here more than Ragnaros.

The bigger issue here are classes like Druid that don't really have hard removal. Naturalize is just fucking awful, putting two cards into your opponent's hand is something that really needs to change. Make it cost more, but without the card bonus for the opponent.

2) Faceless is awesome, I agree... but it can also be awful. This is a card that's only worth playing if your opponent has an amazing minion and it doesn't remove it. It's almost completely useless in mid-game and entirely useless against a deck that doesn't rely on really powerful minions (which is not too rare tbh)

3) Leeroy requires a combo to be anything more than 6 damage. Yes, he can be combo'd well, but he can also backfire. Those whelps can be used for a Savage Roar or a Bloodlust if not removed. Miracle deck is interesting, but the name is well deserved. Yes, it's played and played well, but you're still vulnerable until you can pull off your one-turn combo and it can be hindered by taunts and the like. A mage can pull off a more damaging combo without any legendaries (Frostbolt+Ice Lance=pain).

4) Savage Roar=Bloodlust. Cheaper, maybe, but usually less damage too (two more from hero, but 1 less from each minion... and you should have more than two minions when using either). Counter? Don't let his shitty little 1/1 minions. It takes a while to build a deck for a lethal SR/BL and most classes can send it all to hell with a spell or two. Mage's Flamestrike says hi.

5) Fuck Murloc decks. But they are counterable, as a mate of mine can tell you as he's made one a while ago. He kicked ass at first, until his rank rose up a bit and he started playing against people who just annihilated a murloc deck every time. Still, the Warleader is one of the few things that make a Murloc deck a Murloc deck and while I hate playing against them, I don't think it's deserving of a nerf. Pirates are more weapon-based, though I've yet to see a full pirate deck tbh.

6) Knife Juggler is awesome... but very random and easy to kill. Playing a Leeroy when a Knife Juggler is out is your own fault if he gets killed right away and you'd have no one else to blame. Don't get me wrong, it's great to get two damage out of your mirror images or fuck knows how many out of UTH, but it's still situational and random. 2/2 would be a silly nerf because the 2 mana minions are generally all based around 2/3 or 3/2.

UTH nerf was deserved (and not overdone, 3 mana is okay), but knowing how much the Hunter relies on it, you can often punish them for waiting on a UTH combo. Punishing to play minions? A far more punishing thing to playing minions is a Flamestrike. The hounds need a Hyena or a Buzzard to be worth it and that takes waiting until your opponents has a number of minions (preferably at least 3) and you having both the mana and the necessary cards.

Kyber:

The Wykydtron:

Zato-1:

Because Big Game Hunter in your hand makes you very sad when playing against Zoo Warlock and Hunter, some of the strongest decks around.

Am I missing something but how is having a single BGH in your deck such a bad move against a Hunter or Warlock? I don't particularly pay close attention to the meta but people do tend to play big cards at some point in the game (again Rag.) He's even a failsafe if something like a Hyena gets too big, something that can happen instantly because lol Doggies. It's only one card in 30 so even if he's not the best in that particular matchup you have another 29 cards to use. Hunter and Warlock aren't the only things played (buff something Paladin, I dare you) and I never really have trouble with Warlocks anyway. Well maybe that's because all of them are playing Murloc decks and they are really freaking bad. I hit around 10/15hp on average then manage to get leverage and wipe the board and a Murloc deck can't continue to function once it gets shut down once.

He said Zoo Warlock, and by Hunter he probably meant the typical rushdown hunter, both of those decks almost never have big minions, maybe King Crush but even that's rare.

Literally just shut a Hunter the fuck down with a single Big Game Hunter. He UTH'd all my minions after playing a Hyena (yeah, that old trick) buffing it to a 7 attack creature. IMMEDIATELY killed by BGH, no damage on me, several cards and board presence wasted by him giving me the advantage in momentum and cards which he never recovered from even with his second UTH.

Shutting down that instant super buffed Hyena with him is actually better than waiting for his legendaries to come out lategame.

But no, "So bad vs Hunter decks lol"

I don't even know what Zoo Warlock actually is, everyone is still just playing Murloc on EU or something. Is it the early double Flame Imps thing?

Vrach:

3) Leeroy requires a combo to be anything more than 6 damage. Yes, he can be combo'd well, but he can also backfire. Those whelps can be used for a Savage Roar or a Bloodlust if not removed. Miracle deck is interesting, but the name is well deserved. Yes, it's played and played well, but you're still vulnerable until you can pull off your one-turn combo and it can be hindered by taunts and the like. A mage can pull off a more damaging combo without any legendaries (Frostbolt+Ice Lance=pain).

taunts are usualy instandly removed against miracle rogue and usualy the moment you see leeroy you are dead you never get the change to use those whelps for anything at all and that makes it extrmery broken 26 damage in single turn with empty board is something that just should not be happening expelialy since there is usualy no way of removing miracle rogues card draw thanks to conceal

Somewhat amused by all of the suggestions really. Both in the article and this thread.

Article:
- Knife Juggler. He's a solid 3/2 for 2 with an unpredictable ability. Compared to Bloodfen Raptor and River Crocolisk he's ahead of the curve. But he's pretty much on par with the likes of Mad Bomber and Wild Pyromancer (arguably Bomber is better because his triggers right away, but its WAY more unpredictable).

- Murloc Warleader. Murloc decks aren't that popular anyway for good reason. And he's very easy to deal with. Yeah, those decks are annoying but they run out of steam quickly if you react properly.

- Savage Roar. Typically used in a combo with Force of Nature. Its ok; but its a one-turn buff for a class that doesn't really have a "free" way to fill their board. If you want to pick this one out I'd argue a worse offender is Bloodlusted Totems from Shaman.

- Leeroy. No. He's a charge minion with a significant downside that opens up a number of interesting playstyles. He's pretty much bang on for mana cost due to said downside and can be played around.

- Faceless Manipulator. Very easy to end up as a dead card in your hand. Its really not that strong.

- Ragnaros. Rag is one of probably four "must have" legendaries along with Cairne, Thalnos and Leeroy. But he plays slow. For his mana cost his effectiveness is pretty much fine since a smart opponent will have removal stacked up. He gets removed a LOT the turn after he gets played. The only reason rag sees more play than Ysera is because Ysera plays even slower and you have to actually use the card. Ultimately you need cards like this if the control or ramp decks are going to be in any way playable. You can't have every deck being tempo or aggro.

This thread:
- Flamestrike gets a lot of hate but is very easy to play around.

- Mind Control is one of the few effective Priest cards. Priest is a VERY weak class at present with poor class options. And Mind Control is one of the slowest cards in the entire game; most Priests only run one at most. It was nerfed to hell about six months ago and any further nerfs to the card would make it unplayable. In fact many are relying mainly on Mindgames and Thoughtsteal instead of it.

- Pyroblast is by far one of the most annoying cards to go against in Arena. Then again Mage is by far the strongest class in arena, whilst being either the weakest or second weakest in constructed. Tends not to be seen in constructed at any decent level because it plays way too slowly for too little impact. At least Mind Control gives a minion to play with.

drakonz:

The Madman:
The only cards which I think need a drastic rethinking are Pyroblast and Mind Control, because neither of those cards are just any fun to play against.
.

both of those cards are predy much dead past rank 15 so i dont see reason to change them unless you are talking about buff

There's a couple of exceptions. I play my own style of Draw-Priest with Double MC being two of my lategame threats and have been comfortably past 15 both this season and last and I've seen one or two people running MC there too. But most typical decks don't run more than one of either (actually I don't think I've ever seen a Pyroblast in constructed at anything above rank 20; the only Mages I see are magic damage aggro Mages).

The Wykydtron:
I don't even know what Zoo Warlock actually is, everyone is still just playing Murloc on EU or something. Is it the early double Flame Imps thing?

What rank are you playing at? I'm on EU and I literally see NOTHING but Handlock and Zoolock from Warlock players, mainly Zoolock. I've played a single Murloc player and that was in Casual. From people I know that play close to Legend level the entire thing is just packed with Hunters and Zoolock.

Incidentally: simple Zoolock deck:
http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=32025/zoolock

The Wykydtron:

Kyber:

The Wykydtron:

Am I missing something but how is having a single BGH in your deck such a bad move against a Hunter or Warlock? I don't particularly pay close attention to the meta but people do tend to play big cards at some point in the game (again Rag.) He's even a failsafe if something like a Hyena gets too big, something that can happen instantly because lol Doggies. It's only one card in 30 so even if he's not the best in that particular matchup you have another 29 cards to use. Hunter and Warlock aren't the only things played (buff something Paladin, I dare you) and I never really have trouble with Warlocks anyway. Well maybe that's because all of them are playing Murloc decks and they are really freaking bad. I hit around 10/15hp on average then manage to get leverage and wipe the board and a Murloc deck can't continue to function once it gets shut down once.

He said Zoo Warlock, and by Hunter he probably meant the typical rushdown hunter, both of those decks almost never have big minions, maybe King Crush but even that's rare.

Literally just shut a Hunter the fuck down with a single Big Game Hunter. He UTH'd all my minions after playing a Hyena (yeah, that old trick) buffing it to a 7 attack creature. IMMEDIATELY killed by BGH, no damage on me, several cards and board presence wasted by him giving me the advantage in momentum and cards which he never recovered from even with his second UTH.

Shutting down that instant super buffed Hyena with him is actually better than waiting for his legendaries to come out lategame.

But no, "So bad vs Hunter decks lol"

I don't even know what Zoo Warlock actually is, everyone is still just playing Murloc on EU or something. Is it the early double Flame Imps thing?

Rushdown hunters almost never use the hyena, so you probably weren't playing against a rushdown hunter, which was the one I was referring to.

You see, in high ranks, like Legendary, people only play few decks, which are proven to work,(Control-Druid/Warrior/Shaman, rushdown hunter, Zoo Warlock, even Hand-Lock). I don't think I've seen a single Murloc deck since Rank 7, and that was a while ago, so I don't think you're playing against high ranks, in low ranks though, you can just play how you feel.

Zoo Warlock is a warlock deck that uses varying low cost, low attack minions, so BGH is usually just a dead card(a card that sits in your hand doing nothing), just like against rushdown hunter, in which the most you'll get out of BGH is King Crush, if they happen to play it, which they usually don't (it's too slow), and if you happen to be alive after they play it(it's usually a finisher).

Keep playing, keep learning, soon you'll be on par with the meta.

Rag Doll:
And finally, some buffs: Priests need heals. I'm not saying I want greater heal back, but I would like another tool into the Auchenai soulpriest toolbox. Weirdly enough, the priest is lacking a targeted large heal.

Sounds fun.

Hope you're not forgetting circle of healing. That's is awesome for early blademaster tempo or auchenai soulpriest board clearing.

Although to be honest the soulpriest is quite good as a temporary shadowmeld!

Rag Doll:

Certain 1-toughness creatures, like dust devil and the windfury snake are dead cards against 1-damage hero powers. (mage, rogue, druid) Having a good card that has a 33% chance of being a dead card is just bad design, and it would be better if this was fixed.

...hmmm. I guess that's all. Don't want to get greedy.

No they're just bad cards because they are high risk for high reward. Dust devils can end the game in 3 turns so they need to have some draw back. Also you're assuming that the chance of getting a Mage, Rogue or Druid is equal to all other classes which it isn't.

Edit: They're bad cards in a relatively early game dominated meta.

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