Flat Earth Birth Control

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Flat Earth Birth Control

If you don't like the joke Allah tell another one.

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I'm pretty sure Cory and Grey started a storyline of panels called "50 shades of Wrong".

Still not as regressive as the Christian Sciences approach to medicine...

I'm sure this comic has context, but I don't know what it is.

canadamus_prime:
I'm sure this comic has context, but I don't know what it is.

Coughs up a little blood...

I essentially agree. There's a perverse genius at work here, finding new ways to put the rights of companies about the rights of individuals.

Is it really eroding the division between state and religion, though? To me it looks like driving a wedge between them so hard that there could now be effectively two states: a secular one, which must obey laws, and a religious one, which gets to pick and choose which laws it accepts.

canadamus_prime:
I'm sure this comic has context, but I don't know what it is.

The US supreme court has ruled that companies (most notably Hobby Lobby) are not required to provide birth control to female employees due to religious grounds because they are a "closely-held company".

shouldn't the link provide context for the strip. You know, instead of linking to a video of the game forest gump.
I think you might have forgotten to put in a new link since the last clip.

MCerberus:

canadamus_prime:
I'm sure this comic has context, but I don't know what it is.

The US supreme court has ruled that companies (most notably Hobby Lobby) are not required to provide birth control to female employees due to religious grounds because they are a "closely-held company".

"closely-held company"? What the hell does that mean?

canadamus_prime:

MCerberus:

canadamus_prime:
I'm sure this comic has context, but I don't know what it is.

The US supreme court has ruled that companies (most notably Hobby Lobby) are not required to provide birth control to female employees due to religious grounds because they are a "closely-held company".

"closely-held company"? What the hell does that mean?

Extremely small ownership group, no public stock.

It should be noted that the family that owns Hobby Lobby hasn't ever addressed medical use of hormonal birth control, and believe that anti-ovulation pills are abortion, among other things. Oh, and their health plans cover Viagra, meaning that they subscribe to the medical opinion that dealing with your sexual desires can be good for your health..

Oh, and I'm just going to get the EVERY TIME THIS HAPPENS thing out of the way: CORPORATIONS ARE NOT PEOPLE. THE PRECEDENT THAT SAYS THIS DOESN'T EXIST. IT WAS WRITTEN AS A 'WHAT-IF' BY A CLERK BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT REFUSED TO HEAR THE CASE.

Amaror:
shouldn't the link provide context for the strip. You know, instead of linking to a video of the game forest gump.
I think you might have forgotten to put in a new link since the last clip.

Actually, that was the funniest part of today's comic. Obsessive callbacks are good comedy.

OT: dem tags. How does it feel to know that you run something that is, and forever will be, the flame-baitiest content the Escapist will ever release? :D

Hobby Lobby covers the following forms of contraception:
Male condoms
Female condoms
Diaphragms with spermicide
Sponges with spermicide
Cervical caps with spermicide
Spermicide alone
Birth-control pills with estrogen and progestin ("Combined Pill)
Birth-control pills with progestin alone ("The Mini Pill)
Birth control pills (extended/continuous use)
Contraceptive patches
Contraceptive rings
Progestin injections
Implantable rods
Vasectomies
Female sterilization surgeries
Female sterilization implants

The forms of contraception that were opposed were:
Plan B (morning after pill)
Ella (another emergency contraceptive)
Copper Intrauterine Device
IUD with progestin

The reason they were opposed was because these forms of birth control can cause or are akin to abortion.

This issue makes me so angry. It shouldn't be an issue. Shouldn't be a question. In short, the people who got this law through, and the companies who use it, are scum, complete, sub human, worthless little shits who should, at very least, be chased out of civilised life and forced to survive on their own. I give it three days until they kill each other.

wetfart:
Hobby Lobby covers the following forms of contraception:
Male condoms
Female condoms
Diaphragms with spermicide
Sponges with spermicide
Cervical caps with spermicide
Spermicide alone
Birth-control pills with estrogen and progestin ("Combined Pill)
Birth-control pills with progestin alone ("The Mini Pill)
Birth control pills (extended/continuous use)
Contraceptive patches
Contraceptive rings
Progestin injections
Implantable rods
Vasectomies
Female sterilization surgeries
Female sterilization implants

The forms of contraception that were opposed were:
Plan B (morning after pill)
Ella (another emergency contraceptive)
Copper Intrauterine Device
IUD with progestin

The reason they were opposed was because these forms of birth control can cause or are akin to abortion.

Well, that's a bit of a kick in the teeth, isn't it?

Although, as the comic indicates, I think more people are wringing their hands about the "because religion" aspect.

I puked a little bit. I thought it was making fun of private companies that somehow gotten religion involved.
Didn't imagine it actually relating to a public company where now... they can use religious beliefs as an excuse to abuse people. I mean, didn't the Supreme Court realize how easy it'll be for companies to take advantage of this?

I'm not even a scholar, or someone with a high degree in law ... let alone politics. But as a person with common sense, I see this going downhill fast. Religion is free to those who believe in what they want, but don't let companies to use religion as a source of power. THAT is going to screw people over, just you wait.

Caramel Frappe:
I puked a little bit. I thought it was making fun of private companies that somehow gotten religion involved.
Didn't imagine it actually relating to a public company where now... they can use religious beliefs as an excuse to abuse people. I mean, didn't the Supreme Court realize how easy it'll be for companies to take advantage of this?

I'm not even a scholar, or someone with a high degree in law ... let alone politics. But as a person with common sense, I see this going downhill fast. Religion is free to those who believe in what they want, but don't let companies to use religion as a source of power. THAT is going to screw people over, just you wait.

Hobby Lobby isn't a public company, it's a closely held private company that is essentially owned by one family. The Supreme Court recognized that access to contraception is a legitimate government interest, but ruled that there were other, less restrictive methods to provide it than requiring employers to do so.

This decision is a lot narrower than people want to pretend it is. The law already stipulates that the government will purchase contraceptives for religious non-profits, now they just have to do so for closely held private companies as well. And it requires a "sincerely held religious belief," so you could safely challenge a mysterious conversion to Christian Science / Wahhabi Islam / Scientology / etc.

Robyrt:

Caramel Frappe:
I puked a little bit. I thought it was making fun of private companies that somehow gotten religion involved.
Didn't imagine it actually relating to a public company where now... they can use religious beliefs as an excuse to abuse people. I mean, didn't the Supreme Court realize how easy it'll be for companies to take advantage of this?

I'm not even a scholar, or someone with a high degree in law ... let alone politics. But as a person with common sense, I see this going downhill fast. Religion is free to those who believe in what they want, but don't let companies to use religion as a source of power. THAT is going to screw people over, just you wait.

Hobby Lobby isn't a public company, it's a closely held private company that is essentially owned by one family. The Supreme Court recognized that access to contraception is a legitimate government interest, but ruled that there were other, less restrictive methods to provide it than requiring employers to do so.

This decision is a lot narrower than people want to pretend it is. The law already stipulates that the government will purchase contraceptives for religious non-profits, now they just have to do so for closely held private companies as well. And it requires a "sincerely held religious belief," so you could safely challenge a mysterious conversion to Christian Science / Wahhabi Islam / Scientology / etc.

Ahhhhhhh~ I see. That's actually a relief to hear, since there's a lot of 'barriers' to go through then.
Still... private companies might abuse their employees in some way with this, but for now we'll just have to wait and see. Thank you for not only informing/educating me on this manner, but also doing it civilly.

I can't tell you how many times someone will lash out on me (or others) for stating something they don't agree with or find wrong. Even if it is wrong, they don't respond in a way that'll make the person listen.

wetfart:
Hobby Lobby covers the following forms of contraception:
Male condoms
Female condoms
Diaphragms with spermicide
Sponges with spermicide
Cervical caps with spermicide
Spermicide alone
Birth-control pills with estrogen and progestin ("Combined Pill)
Birth-control pills with progestin alone ("The Mini Pill)
Birth control pills (extended/continuous use)
Contraceptive patches
Contraceptive rings
Progestin injections
Implantable rods
Vasectomies
Female sterilization surgeries
Female sterilization implants

The forms of contraception that were opposed were:
Plan B (morning after pill)
Ella (another emergency contraceptive)
Copper Intrauterine Device
IUD with progestin

The reason they were opposed was because these forms of birth control can cause or are akin to abortion.

And last time I checked abortion was legal wasn't it? This still feels like religion forcing it's values on people.

All this decision does is make healthcare even more complicated and bureaucratic in the West. I hope everyone understands that. The more people fight for the right to have exceptions to the law, and the more complex those exceptions are and the more requirements there are to reach those exceptions, the harder and more costly the system is to maintain. This is a win for the religious faction, good for them, but everyone else is going to lose in the long run.

Edit: On second thought, I think I'm going to stay out of this one. :P

As fun of a bees' nest as this may or may not stir up, I'm still looking forward to the next WGDF.

RJ 17:
As fun of a bees' nest as this may or may not stir up, I'm still looking forward to the next WGDF.

Yeah, but then they might not actually make another, have to take controversies where you can find them.

...

Does this ruling apply to strange religions made up for this purpose? OTOH, I don't think the US actually bans mind control rays.

Damn! My country's kind messed up, but it's good to know at least we have a leg up on the "civilized" west in terms of gender equality... also internet speeds. Like, really, you can't even by anything under 50mb/s.

thaluikhain:

RJ 17:
As fun of a bees' nest as this may or may not stir up, I'm still looking forward to the next WGDF.

Yeah, but then they might not actually make another, have to take controversies where you can find them.

I still say the whole "Ubisoft thinks female characters are too hard/expensive to make" deal would have been a perfect issue to summon the WGDF for. :P

It's funny, once you start reading the court opinions/scientific studies/essays instead of just the partisan comments on them, you start seeing just how dumb and sheepish everyone is. The Hobby Lobby opinion actually shifts the cost for birth control to the government/insurance companies rather than the companies themselves and only applies to closely held companies (companies that have (I believe the number is) 15 or less controlling shareholders, mostly family-owned companies). Even then, there has to be evidence of the sincerity of their beliefs to get the exemption, which is a pain to prove in court for anyone trying to skip in on it.

Bottom line is: if you want birth control and work for Hobby Lobby, you can still get it at the same cost to the end person, just the money for it comes from a different source. I will add that there is the slight wrinkle that there's some kind of sign up that's been referred to that makes it annoying, but not really harder.

If you have an issue with this case, the real "bad guy" ideology isn't Christianity or religion in general, but the doctrine of corporate personhood, which causes immense problems in the US, but would cause even worse problems were it to go away. One of the major catch-22s of the current state of law.

Then again, I heard there's an order that went out yesterday that might alter Hobby Lobby a bit, haven't read it yet.

RJ 17:

thaluikhain:

RJ 17:
As fun of a bees' nest as this may or may not stir up, I'm still looking forward to the next WGDF.

Yeah, but then they might not actually make another, have to take controversies where you can find them.

I still say the whole "Ubisoft thinks female characters are too hard/expensive to make" deal would have been a perfect issue to summon the WGDF for. :P

Eh, WGDF works for all sorts of issues, though. Which was why it was controversial, the same issues keep coming up, and keep getting shouted down.

The ruling basically finds that your employers', sorry that was the wrong word, owners' religious views get to dictate your medical decisions provided you work for a closely held corporation.

Further it is not simply a matter of religion trumping law, but also science. The company's objections were based on the idea that those medicines are aborticants, two of them actually aren't.

However the fact that it was the sincere religious belief of the owners that they were, well, fuck science.

If the regulation they based their decision on provides such a clear favouring of religion it should have failed the establishment clause.

While the judges excluded things like blood transfusions from their ruling, they didn't actually provide any reasoning to back that up. The result being that while their judgement doesn't currently cover that, it is really just one court case away.

This and their ruling on the previous Thursday both basically run on the fact that the justices are religiously opposed to abortion themselves.

The ruling on Thursday found that buffer zones around abortion clinics are unconstitutional. This is despite the fact that abortion doctors and clinic helpers have been murdered.

Meanwhile the buffer zone around the supreme court is 100% A Okay.

One can't really get around the elephant in the room here - it is a case which shows the distinct dangers involved in stocking the supreme court with Catholic conservatives.

Look, I know it's fun to get snarky with outrage over the latest political issue, but even aside from the perspective being provided being drastically oversimplified and in many ways flat out wrong (Someone else already pointed out Hobby Lobby's insurance plan covers 16 different types of birth control, including "the pill" so it's not an "attack on women," especially given that Plan B is over-the-counter and $49.99 at Walgreen's)... I didn't bookmark this comic because I wanted political commentary... I wanted gaming humor. You are free, of course, to run your comic however you want, just be aware it makes me and probably some others less interested in reading it.

I believe that a employer only owes you a paycheck, nothing more. If I had my way, there would be no healthcare or any form of benefits at all, just money plain and simple. Use your money as you see fit, be it on healthcare, contraceptives or whatever you want. (Please don't say I'm anti-women either, as I don't believe men should get anything other than cash either).

erttheking:

wetfart:
Hobby Lobby covers the following forms of contraception:
Male condoms
Female condoms
Diaphragms with spermicide
Sponges with spermicide
Cervical caps with spermicide
Spermicide alone
Birth-control pills with estrogen and progestin ("Combined Pill)
Birth-control pills with progestin alone ("The Mini Pill)
Birth control pills (extended/continuous use)
Contraceptive patches
Contraceptive rings
Progestin injections
Implantable rods
Vasectomies
Female sterilization surgeries
Female sterilization implants

The forms of contraception that were opposed were:
Plan B (morning after pill)
Ella (another emergency contraceptive)
Copper Intrauterine Device
IUD with progestin

The reason they were opposed was because these forms of birth control can cause or are akin to abortion.

And last time I checked abortion was legal wasn't it? This still feels like religion forcing it's values on people.

After researching each of these forms of contraception, most of them dont seem like 'abortion' even to Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrauterine_device. If you look under mechanisms it says it works by preventing fertilization, which according to Christians is the deciding factor if it counts as abortion. So Copper Intrauterine device and IUD (which are both popular forms of contraception) are fine.

Plan B seems fine but at least there may be an argument. It seems to just prevent ovulation and prevent fertilization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levonorgestrel. Some reports say that it might prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uteral wall, but these claims do not seem researched enough. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/health/research/morning-after-pills-dont-block-implantation-science-suggests.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0.

Some things I am reading say that ella works similar to RU-486 which is an actual abortion drug and may disrupt the fertilized egg from implantation. But there are conflicting articles on this.

Anyways why are we letting a business decide what is best for an individual?

Plus for more data http://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/conception_how_it_works/ and http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/jun99/wilcox2.htm.

At least from this small sample google search it seems that more than half of fertilized eggs do not implant themselves anyways. Should fertilization really be what defines a fetus if over half will fail to implant? Just throwing more ideas out but is a drug that prevent implantation worse than nature preventing half of all implantations anyways?

Also Hobby Lobby and other companies want to exclude 'Doctor consultation about birth control and contrceptions' from being covered under their insurance. This would mean that doctors would not get paid and the men or woman would need to pay for the doctors time to even talk about contraception! This case is a very slippery slope to many many bad things for all workers.

wetfart:

The reason they were opposed was because these forms of birth control can cause or are akin to abortion.

Not according to actual science.

Hobby Lobby pretty much unilaterally declared that they believe morning after pills to be abortifacient, ignoring the reality that they do exactly nothing to a fertilized egg, that's why they only work on the morning after, between the intercourse and the conception.

Edit: I don't care about the subject nearly enough to read your comments. Stop quoting me.

Westaway:
Hang on just one fucking second. Since when do companies provide birth control to their female employees? When did that become a thing? Can't women buy the stuff at the local pharmacy?

Welcome to America- Land of the "Give me everything for free because I said so." Whether it's Viagra, condoms, dental care, birth control, getaways or whatever tickles your fancy, I better get it for free from my boss because I'll be damned if I'm paying for it with my own money.

just wiki'd this

"Practices that have been forbidden by Wahhabi preachers include performing or listening to music, dancing, fortune telling, amulets, television programs (unless religious), smoking, playing backgammon, chess, or cards, drawing human or animal figures, acting in a play or writing fiction (both are considered forms of lying), dissecting cadavers (even in criminal investigations and for the purposes of medical research). Common Muslim practices Wahhabis believe are contrary to Islam include listening to music in praise of Muhammad, praying to God while visiting tombs (including the tomb of Muhammad), celebrating mawlid (birthday of the Prophet) building of minarets or use of ornamentation on or in mosques. The driving of motor vehicles by women is allowed in most countries but Wahhabi-dominated Saudi Arabia."

jesus christ thats... something

I'm going to say something very controversial. It's sad that the Supreme Court would rule in favor of this, but I'm not surprised corporations would fight for this stance. It's what corporations do: if there are corners to be cut, they'll cut them all and cut some more just to be on the safe side.

But, it comes down to, what I believe, personal responsibility. Yes, there are many, many exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, the parties in question should practice safe sex in order to avoid these types of situations. Yes, lots of individuals find it difficult to afford birth control methods, but maybe it brings up another question whether relationships should be based solely or heavily on sex. True love should go beyond sex and just spending time with one another should just be pleasant all by itself.

And yes, there is the religion thing. I want to give the benefit of the doubt and say that religious groups have the right to exercise a certain freedom as entailed in the constitution, but there will always those who will game the system and abuse it. It's very sad, but we have to hope courts know the difference between freedom of religion and using religion to exploit it.

wetfart:

The reason they were opposed was because these forms of birth control can cause or are akin to abortion.

Which in no way changes the larger controversy because the door has been opened on those other coverages.

However, as Hobby Lobby is invested in companies that make such "abortion" causing drugs, it's hard to say they have any good faith argument for their principles.

They're invested in and profiting on abortion.

Because JAYSUS.

erttheking:

And last time I checked abortion was legal wasn't it? This still feels like religion forcing it's values on people.

This isn't about the legality of abortion, but whether or not someone should be required to follow a law that's against their religious beliefs or subsudise something against their religious beliefs.

And until now, the answer has been overwhelmingly "yes." Mormons can't just have multiple child brides because of their religious beliefs. Quakers can't refuse to pay taxes because of their anti-war stance and unwillingness to participate in, fund, or support a war, and it's probably best to classify Muslim rights related to belief as a can of worms unto itself.

Granted, if this weren't about abortion specifically and Christians specifically, it wouldn't have gone anywhere, but that's the problem.

RJ 17:
As fun of a bees' nest as this may or may not stir up, I'm still looking forward to the next WGDF.

thaluikhain:

Yeah, but then they might not actually make another, have to take controversies where you can find them.

Yeah, but who needs WGDF when this sort of thing is around?

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