Zero Punctuation: Shovel Knight - Good NES Nostalgia

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bobdole1979:

Two-A:

bobdole1979:
wow Shovelknight has paid everyone haha. I didn't know Yatzee did paid reviews but ok. Not very sudbtle when Continue? GameGrumps, Yatzee and everyone else reviews the same game at the same time.

Not really, the game just had the luxury of being a relatively new (and actually finished) indie game released during the summer game drought.

and you think that explains why shows like Game Grumps and Continue? who don't play new games unless they sponsor them are playing this?
you understand that summer drought is meaningless to Gamegrumps an dContinue right?

I can't think of a single time Continue played a game on a current gen system can you?

Continue? plays games mostly from the NES era. Shovel Knight is styled as a game from the NES era.

Enlong:

bobdole1979:

Two-A:

Not really, the game just had the luxury of being a relatively new (and actually finished) indie game released during the summer game drought.

and you think that explains why shows like Game Grumps and Continue? who don't play new games unless they sponsor them are playing this?
you understand that summer drought is meaningless to Gamegrumps an dContinue right?

I can't think of a single time Continue played a game on a current gen system can you?

Continue? plays games mostly from the NES era. Shovel Knight is styled as a game from the NES era.

Tell me how many games have they ever played brand new? Answer? Just 1 shovel knight.

There are plenty of indie games that are NES like but they don't play them why do you think that is? Also why is it this was their only 2 part episode?

There are words for 'nostalgia for something you've never experienced'. They're in other languages of course, spoken by more depressed people. *Sehnsucht* is probably the best: 'Sehnsucht represents thoughts and feelings about all facets of life that are unfinished or imperfect, paired with a yearning for ideal alternative experiences.' http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sehnsucht

Damned if that doesn't cover it perfectly.

bobdole1979:

Enlong:

bobdole1979:

and you think that explains why shows like Game Grumps and Continue? who don't play new games unless they sponsor them are playing this?
you understand that summer drought is meaningless to Gamegrumps an dContinue right?

I can't think of a single time Continue played a game on a current gen system can you?

Continue? plays games mostly from the NES era. Shovel Knight is styled as a game from the NES era.

Tell me how many games have they ever played brand new? Answer? Just 1 shovel knight.

There are plenty of indie games that are NES like but they don't play them why do you think that is? Also why is it this was their only 2 part episode?

Well, they played it 'cause Yacht Club sent it in, much like most of the games they play. I suppose if someone gifted them a copy of Rogue Legacy, or FTL or something, it could appear. And they seem to have liked it a lot, hence the 2-parter.

I wonder if this will set a precedent for them deciding to two-part other games they really want to continue. Could be cool.

Roger:
Was I the only constantly getting a trifle miffed over Yahtzee's thorn in the side of "NES can't parallax scroll"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltuRuGM271Q

I don't know how Shovel Knight does it, but the NES could totally Parallax.

It depends on how you define Parallax, lest we get down to semantics.

Shovel Knight parallaxes in a particular way that the NES couldn't. In all of the examples shown in the video, the parallaxing tiles do not intrude on the non-parllaxing tiles. Either they have their own height to scroll separately on, or the (system-imposed) blockiness of the foreground tiles is hidden with careful color selection and/or shadowing. Except in the case of Megaman 3, in which the "parallaxing" starscape was accomplished using sprites that, being sprites, were even in front of the landscape.

In shovel knight, there are multiple layers of parallaxing on top of each other and using non-block boundaries. Both of these things would be impossible on the NES, though clever programmers of that era could've managed something similar by sectioning off different horizontal bands for different levels of parallaxing, as seen in the Ninja Gaiden 3 section of the video, which has foreground as well as background parallax scrolling.

It's more of a technical nitpick than anything else and even standard-bearers Megaman 9 & 10 had the occasional miss in fidelity on that front. Skipping out on a technical limitation that a great amount of work was spent disguising - to the point of it occasionally forgotten that it even existed - is hardly a black mark in my book. It'd be like docking points for when too many sprites are on the same scanline and not imposing flicker or slowdown.

bobdole1979:
yes I did ignore your "points" because there is a much bigger issue here that you lack a basic understanding of how things work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcOEA3fJ390

yeah Disney did BUY game grumps. But hey don't take my word for it. As soon as you acknowledge reality I can move on to your "points"

Can I acknowledge it for him? Please? Could you address his points now?

bobdole1979:
But please tell me what the last game Gamegrumps played on the day it came out?

Shovel Knight
Release Date: 27 Jun 2014
Shovel Knight: Dragon Fart Facts - PART 1 - Game Grumps
Published on Jul 12, 2014

The Stomping Land Release
Date: 31 May 2014
The Stomping Land: Beware of Dinosaurs - PART 1 - Steam Train
Published on Jun 13, 2014

DreadOut
Release Date: 16 May 2014
DreadOut: The Longest Road - PART 1 - Steam Train
Published on May 31, 2014

Wind Waker HD
October 4, 2013
Wind Waker HD: At the Outset - PART 1 - Game Grumps
Published on Nov 1, 2013

Okay, now what? I don't see how the argument changes in any way.

bobdole1979, let's cut to the chase: you've made an allegation. Do you have any proof to back it up? Not hints, not "Well, why else would they do this?" questions, actual proof. I'm going to guess the answer is "no," because what you're alleging is ridiculous.

Scow2:
Localization requires time. Worldwide release dates merely means they're holding off on releasing a finished product until the slowest localization teams finish, as opposed to releasing the game when it's done where it's done, and not holding back releases for unrelated development cycles.

Which is a fair principle to abide by when your audience is a worldwide thing.

Regarding anything competitive, unequal release dates cause certain territories to irreparably "fall behind" everyone else, which gives the territories who got it earlier an unfair advantage.

Furthermore, like I mentioned earlier, gaming serves a worldwide audience. If Microsoft can "get it right" (barring actual consoles getting released) so easily, but super-billionaire legendary gaming corporation Nintendo STILL cannot get it right after 30 years, then there's something seriously wrong about the situation.

"Released when it's ready" should apply to the whole world, not just the specific market that the developers or publishers hail from.

Lotet:

bobdole1979:
yes I did ignore your "points" because there is a much bigger issue here that you lack a basic understanding of how things work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcOEA3fJ390

yeah Disney did BUY game grumps. But hey don't take my word for it. As soon as you acknowledge reality I can move on to your "points"

Can I acknowledge it for him? Please? Could you address his points now?

bobdole1979:
But please tell me what the last game Gamegrumps played on the day it came out?

Shovel Knight
Release Date: 27 Jun 2014
Shovel Knight: Dragon Fart Facts - PART 1 - Game Grumps
Published on Jul 12, 2014

The Stomping Land Release
Date: 31 May 2014
The Stomping Land: Beware of Dinosaurs - PART 1 - Steam Train
Published on Jun 13, 2014

DreadOut
Release Date: 16 May 2014
DreadOut: The Longest Road - PART 1 - Steam Train
Published on May 31, 2014

Wind Waker HD
October 4, 2013
Wind Waker HD: At the Outset - PART 1 - Game Grumps
Published on Nov 1, 2013

Okay, now what? I don't see how the argument changes in any way.

are you arguing that Disney bought Gamegrumps? If not yeah i can have the conversation with you

Only 2 of those games are Gamegrumps the other 2 are Steam train. But yes Gamegrumps has done paid episdoes several times before such as for World of Warplanes, ESJ, Pacific Rim and others.

But look at that 4 games in 1 year. At 3 episodes a day that's 1095 episdoes... how many of those are the new games? Wind Waker was a lot of episodes, but the other 3 games... kind of see the point there? New games isn't something they do often on Gamegrumps

as for the other guys "points"

Shovelknights kickstarter goal was $70k. They made $300k (good for them) so money wasn't an issue.

the best they can do is give demos out to garner interest. This "new way of marketing" is hardly even feasible to the indie scene.

this is pretty stupid and I hope you won't stand by it. The most succesful indie games of the past few years Braid, Supermeatboy, and others all got their biggest boost in marketing by youtube. The day they came out people were raving about the game on youtube. in fact Souljaboy famously made a youtube video of himself raving about Braid which caused a spike in game sales.

Word of mouth advertising is far better then reviews, or even demos. Referrals is sort of the golden egg of marketing. Finding someone who enjoys your product and actively encourages others to try is a huge deal.

Now i'm not saying they spent $10,000 on each youtuber.

and about demos well.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QM6LoaqEnY

When new games come out that are actually good, people play them. It's simple as that. There may be a bunch of let's plays on Shovel Knight but all of them being paid by the publisher/dev makes that even less likely.

i agree people will play good games. The issue is that its being played by people who don't play new games on their channel. Continue has never played a new game.... ever let alone do a 2 part episode on the day the game was released.

We know Gamegrumps does sponsored games as they have done it before.

Is this guy with the conspiracy nonsense for real? He can't seriously believe this tripe.....can he?

step1999:

Machine Man 1992:
What always irritated me about the current state of the industry (ooh look at me jumping on commentator vocabulary bandwagon) is that as soon as new games stopping doing things we liked, the first instinct was to ditch EVERYTHING and go back to the NES. To paraphrase Yahtzee, "What has been the point of the last thirty years of game development and evolution if you're just going to remake [insert ol skool title here] again?"

So, are publishers and their development fuckpuppets to blame or have the people who complained the loudest about how "games these days suck" just no realized yet that they've become obsolete?

What I want is a return to 90's FPS's, where you carry twelve guns and run around huge, non-linear maze levels looking for the exit. You know, DOOM! Brutal Doom is a step in the right direction, but imagine how good it would look on the Unreal 3 engine. Or what about a console space shooter, like Wing Commander, or Starlancer (Christ, I loved that game.)? Or hell, even Tachyon:the Fringe?

Has everything from the PS2 onward been for nought!?

Have you played the Rise of the Triad remake? It's a really good 90's style shooter that came out last year

No it's not...
It's bad.

Shadow Warrior reboot however was amazing. Play that instead!

Thanatos2k:
Is this guy with the conspiracy nonsense for real? He can't seriously believe this tripe.....can he?

are you saying advertising is a conspiracy? You do know developers do this right? Pay youtubers and twitch players to play their game right? Like this isn't some big secret.

DanHibiki:

step1999:

Machine Man 1992:
What always irritated me about the current state of the industry (ooh look at me jumping on commentator vocabulary bandwagon) is that as soon as new games stopping doing things we liked, the first instinct was to ditch EVERYTHING and go back to the NES. To paraphrase Yahtzee, "What has been the point of the last thirty years of game development and evolution if you're just going to remake [insert ol skool title here] again?"

So, are publishers and their development fuckpuppets to blame or have the people who complained the loudest about how "games these days suck" just no realized yet that they've become obsolete?

What I want is a return to 90's FPS's, where you carry twelve guns and run around huge, non-linear maze levels looking for the exit. You know, DOOM! Brutal Doom is a step in the right direction, but imagine how good it would look on the Unreal 3 engine. Or what about a console space shooter, like Wing Commander, or Starlancer (Christ, I loved that game.)? Or hell, even Tachyon:the Fringe?

Has everything from the PS2 onward been for nought!?

Have you played the Rise of the Triad remake? It's a really good 90's style shooter that came out last year

No it's not...
It's bad.

Shadow Warrior reboot however was amazing. Play that instead!

It's just a matter of opinion. I love both games, but I didn't mention SW2013 because it's more first person slasher than first person shooter imo.

I never cared for the NES, mainly because I had a Sega Genesis when I was young. With that said, I agree that running back to the 8-bit era is silly. The 16-bit era gives a better feel for me, but the whole idea of 8-bit is to appeal to the kids from the late 80's.

Shovel Knight looks like a good time so I'll probably pick it up when it's a dollar on Steam. If Super Amazing Wagon Adventure was enjoyable, maybe this will be too.

Enlong:
"Grind for the Treant soul"? Oh dear. Yeah, soul-grinding in [X] of Sorrow is a miserable business indeed. I recall Treant being a particularly nasty one, as the game doesn't like the idea of you getting your magic back easily.

Uratoh:
Oh that treant soul...

And I'll agree, the magic spell items in the game really are overkill...the game's quite beatable without them (and nets you an achievement for doing so), but several sections are a LOT harder, especially without the 'briefly become completely intangible and invulnerable to all damage' and the 'dash forward at high speeds in mid air' spells.

Now I'm kind of curious which of the DSvania games Yahtzee likes best...knowing him, my best guess would be Ecclesia, since while it has flaws, it doesn't reek of unfufilled potential like Ruin (though Ruin has some great stages) and doesn't have Dawn of Sorrow's 'use contrived stylus gimick to kill boss or you have to fight it again' thing.

Quoted, for being the only people I now know who seem to have played Dawn of Sorrow and got the Treant soul. I mean, it could be worse, you could be going for the Iron Golem Soul... or the Final Guard Soul... or the Arc Demon Soul... or the Great Axe Armor Soul... or pretty much any 3-rarity soul.

Also, I'd agree with Order of Ecclesia. And on Hard Mode. Seriously, when I realized I could use the Zombie as a literal meatshield against the Bone Pillars' rapid-kill projectiles in Skeleton Cave, or against the constant stream of bats in Ruvas Forest, I knew this was the best of Castlevania: it had the difficulty of the NES games, and the (eventual) non-linearity of the Metroidvanias, and even the linear stages- like Dark Souls- rewarded exploration with rewards; quest items, healing items, and new glyphs.

And Ecclesia has the best hard mode, too. Yeah, on Normal you can simply just overpower enemies with enough dodging and timing, and with Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin they only cranked dodging skill requirements up to 11 and boosted enemy stats, but Ecclesia forces you to actually THINK about how you can use your resources creatively, efficiently, and strategically if you're even going to survive through the level in one piece.

Which again makes me wish Konami renders the entire Lords of Shadow staff jobless and begs Koji Igarashi back for the next Castlevania game. Oh, and if they had the person who even came up with the idea of Lords of Shadow commit public seppuku for the last 4 years, that'd be a nice touch, too.

EDIT: On second thought, Igarashi will probably never go back to Konami. Here's to Chasm and funding whatever Kickstarter Igarashi can set up.

Grenge Di Origin:
Also, I'd agree with Order of Ecclesia. And on Hard Mode.

You ever try what I called 'Heaven or Hell Mode' (after the DMC mode)? It's Hard Mode, with your character maxed out, but you *MUST* have a Death Ring equipped for the entire playthrough of the game. Bosses are by and large a joke, with Eligor and the Giant Enemy Crab being notable exceptions, but merely navigating the stages becomes an incredible challenge. I got so much more use out of Robo-Noa than I ever thought I would beating the game like that.

Veylon:

Roger:
Was I the only constantly getting a trifle miffed over Yahtzee's thorn in the side of "NES can't parallax scroll"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltuRuGM271Q

I don't know how Shovel Knight does it, but the NES could totally Parallax.

It depends on how you define Parallax, lest we get down to semantics.

Shovel Knight parallaxes in a particular way that the NES couldn't. In all of the examples shown in the video, the parallaxing tiles do not intrude on the non-parllaxing tiles. Either they have their own height to scroll separately on, or the (system-imposed) blockiness of the foreground tiles is hidden with careful color selection and/or shadowing. Except in the case of Megaman 3, in which the "parallaxing" starscape was accomplished using sprites that, being sprites, were even in front of the landscape.

In shovel knight, there are multiple layers of parallaxing on top of each other and using non-block boundaries. Both of these things would be impossible on the NES, though clever programmers of that era could've managed something similar by sectioning off different horizontal bands for different levels of parallaxing, as seen in the Ninja Gaiden 3 section of the video, which has foreground as well as background parallax scrolling.

It's more of a technical nitpick than anything else and even standard-bearers Megaman 9 & 10 had the occasional miss in fidelity on that front. Skipping out on a technical limitation that a great amount of work was spent disguising - to the point of it occasionally forgotten that it even existed - is hardly a black mark in my book. It'd be like docking points for when too many sprites are on the same scanline and not imposing flicker or slowdown.

Fair enough. I hadn't seen what Shovel Knight's look was.

Uratoh:
Oh that treant soul...

And I'll agree, the magic spell items in the game really are overkill...the game's quite beatable without them (and nets you an achievement for doing so), but several sections are a LOT harder, especially without the 'briefly become completely intangible and invulnerable to all damage' and the 'dash forward at high speeds in mid air' spells.

Now I'm kind of curious which of the DSvania games Yahtzee likes best...knowing him, my best guess would be Ecclesia, since while it has flaws, it doesn't reek of unfufilled potential like Ruin (though Ruin has some great stages) and doesn't have Dawn of Sorrow's 'use contrived stylus gimick to kill boss or you have to fight it again' thing.

Since he's soul hunting probably Dawn of Sorrow, or Aria of Sorrow if he's gotta GBA compatible DS.

OT:

THANK YOU. Thats exactly why I favor 'retro' games over most AAA games. They are doing the things I want.

Roger:
Fair enough. I hadn't seen what Shovel Knight's look was.

The "look" is a bit more SNES or Genesis or maybe even pre-Windows 95 DOS, or at least that initial outdoor level gave that impression. It does adhere to the four-color palette rule of the NES, though - which is something most allegedly 8-bit games pass on - "cheating" only with sprites, which is something that's been done on the original hardware via layering, most notably with Megaman. Beyond that, it's something that the NES hardware could've managed.

I just want to say, bobdole1979 totally made this whole thread. Sure typically people will talk about Yahtzee's "review" or the game itself, but bobdole1979 took this to a whole nother level.

bobdole1979:
snip

Egoraptor donated a lot of money to the Shovel Knight kickstarter, he's friends with the composer of the game, and they played the demo on the show long before the game itself came out. I'm pretty sure they weren't paid by Yacht Club Games to play it, especially since he donated so much money to them, it wouldn't make sense if he was then paid in return to play it. They might be playing it as a favour to them, but I think he just likes the game a lot.

I just don't see how a knight charging into battle with a shovel is interesting. And from what I've seen, it isn't really used in a shovelly way (to dig holes, to bury things, to knock people out with a shovel to the back of the head, whatever) which just makes it worse. I challenged myself to think of a better thing for him to carry, and succeeded within 60 seconds (a gun that fell through a time portal, which he uses as a club).

IS there a Knighty Knight in this game? He wears a nightcap and fights you with a pillow.

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