And Rohan Will Answer: Film Comes to the Defense of Games

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And Rohan Will Answer: Film Comes to the Defense of Games

It's not the end of journalism as we know it: Film journalism has already traveled the exact same path games journalism is heading down now.

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You forgot to mention your rants and tirades on twitter and how you tried to get the "Sarkesian effect" removed from existance and how you insulted people bob. The same level of insults that 4chan trolls sink to.

Also you and people that work in the same vein as you are not journalists bob, not really... youre a blogger, one with an agenda to boot. Journalists do investigative work, check their sources and are "supposed" to report from a standpoint of neutrality (a standard to wich i admit that even newsshows more often then not fail to abide in the US)... you give us your opinions about movies thought... and about anything else that crosses your mind. Big difference.

You behaved very unprofessional on twitter and that atleast shows me that youre not ready to be called a journalist yet.

But thats all just my personal opinion, and who cares for that eh?

Bob, I've been a long time fan of yours and I've found your videos to be humorous and funny. I think you're a really smart person who has aspirations of getting progress as quickly as possible.

Which breaks my heart when I say I have to disagree with you. While I do think harassment is a very real and dangerous portion of gaming, I don't like this idea that those with dissenting opinions, however regressive or backwards thinking they may be, shouldn't have a voice to say.

I agree with you. Freedom of speech doesn't guarantee freedom to an audience. But, we should let these buffoons speak, let the world know how utterly ridiculous they are, and in the arena of ideas show that our ideas reign supreme. Let jordanowen and his friend speak. And when it falls flat on its butt, we will have won.

But, at the same time, those of us on the side of progress, on the side of equality, on the side of the future, owe it to ourselves not to stoop to the level our opponent's mudslinging. Time has shown to be on our side, but we risk delaying that progress if our attitudes on social media do not change. Calling out and reporting harassment and threats is one thing. False claims, whomever they may be (I am not accusing Anita Sarkeesian or Zoe Quinn of falsifying reports), will hurt and delay progress. Being rude and dismissive of our opponents will not help.

"But I say to you, love your enemies and bless the one who curses you, and do what is beautiful to the one who hates you, and pray over those who take you by force and persecute you."- Matthew 5:44

Because that means that good behavior is winning out over harassment and threats.

It is this quote I want to believe. But the recent comments on Devin Faraci on Twitter made me very skeptical of this movement.

Is this what you call good behavior? Is this what you call winning over harassment? Are we winning by dismissing our opponents?

These ends, however noble and forward-thinking, do not justify these means.

Nah. Give me a 4chan hate train to indulge in any day. I love that shit. It's cathartic.

All I can say is... Lol, I suspect this thread will go well....

because that means that good behavior is winning out over harassment and threats

Yes, good behaviour is winning out over harassment and threats.
Only your side of this debate that has been the major harasser in this instance, you yourself bob have stooped to name calling and horrible behaviour and have not debated or questioned those of the opposing viewpoint except by labelling it misogyny and refusing to deal with it.

It is the good behaviour of the people asking for more transparency that is winning out, for the most part the people asking for this have refused to stoop to name calling and harassment, sure it has happened but every movement has it's outliers who want to cause trouble, but the majority has been polite, respectful and only ask that our concerns are treated legitimately and not brushed aside.

The Dan Golding post kind of hit home. There was a period there in the early to mid 2000's where I brought my hobby to work with me, so to speak. That definitely doesn't happen anymore. Maybe its different in other people's professions but its a lot easier in mine to not be "gamer". (Video games are fine, you cross the line when you start talking about forums or PAX).

A great video explaining movie bob and why this week I'm done with him for good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpy_SEeDZ4Y

First, Bob, I agree with your main points for the most part. And I've been on your side for a while about how Anita doesn't deserve the hate she's been getting. Granted, I don't agree that her series is interesting, at least not compared to other videos I've seen advocating or discussing the same or similar material... but I digress that I still find it bizarrely weird just how out of control the internet gets in their hate of Anita for virtually doing nothing and being someone who wouldn't even exist if not for them blowing things out of control.

That said, while I agree with your main points, I find it interesting that non-gaming entities are uniting behind gaming entities in defense of gaming and games journalists. But this battle is different from battles against politicians, religious groups, or outspoken lawyers. This is a battle against other people who identify as gamers. The previous battles had very clear sides because you can put a face to the "opposition". Here, we have nameless faceless trolls who will do these horrible things... and continue getting away with it. I'm not saying this is a battle that can't be won. But unlike previous battles for the medium, it will certainly need to be fought differently and dealt with quickly so that this kind of stupid trollish behavior doesn't spread or resurface later. Other creators in other mediums banding together is certainly a good start to that. Just wondering where else this can go from here.

Soulrender95:

because that means that good behavior is winning out over harassment and threats

Yes, good behaviour is winning out over harassment and threats.
Only your side of this debate that has been the major harasser in this instance, you yourself bob have stooped to name calling and horrible behaviour and have not debated or questioned those of the opposing viewpoint except by labelling it misogyny and refusing to deal with it.

It is the good behaviour of the people asking for more transparency that is winning out, for the most part the people asking for this have refused to stoop to name calling and harassment, sure it has happened but every movement has it's outliers who want to cause trouble, but the majority has been polite, respectful and only ask that our concerns are treated legitimately and not brushed aside.

This.

Sorry, Bob. In this instance, you just don't have a leg to stand on. Most of the gaming press doesn't either.

Nice to see a calm, level-headed response to a bunch of people who seem to act poorly only in order to get a response from others/media coverage (which unfortunately they seem to have continued to receive up until this point).

To those people who believe their freedom of speech is being curtailed, let me remind you: you have had and continue to have the freedom to say and write what you want, given that you keep saying and writing horrible things, but you do not have freedom from accountability for what you say. If you spew hate speech, then other people are free to respond and you probably wont like it. So, think about that before you insult, harass, oppress, threaten to murder or threaten to rape someone. There may be consequences.

So, the harassing conspiracy theorists got media outside games journalism to take note of what was going on just like they wanted, only instead of getting portrayed as the heroic truth tellers they wanted to be seen as, they got shown as the vicious, lying scum they really are?

Does this fall under irony, schadenfreude, or both?

Bob, I'd just like to say that you did a great job.

At taking the attitudes and opinions of a vocal extremist minority of gamers, then lecturing all gamers as if that minority is somehow representative of the whole group.

Maybe if enough people point at Bob's recent behavior on twitter, something will be done about it.

Any self-respecting film writer would be aghast if told they were expected to insert speculation about Kim Kardashian's baby-bump into coverage of Cannes, but Joystiq or Polygon or The Escapist are derelict in their duties for not leading with "Female Game Dev Has Sex -- Possibly More Than Once!" as a main headline? Give me a break.

That's a complete misrepresentation, and you know it.

A more accurate analogy would be expecting an article about a film director or producer sleeping with one or more film critics.

The ex-partner of an indie game developer (I'd rather not fuel the fire by mentioning names here, you can learn what you need to from the multiple links throughout)

Why? Everybody knows you're talking about Zoe Quinn, anybody who didn't can learn the name by just reading the title of a link; what sort of advantage journalistic, narrative-wise, or other can be gained by saying that? It's like saying, "I want to write this piece about a famous director who is well known for adapting 80's cartoons and a very flamboyant and explosive style, who is affiliated with a movie about amphibians that practise martial arts that is in the theatre right now, but I'm not going to stir up trouble by naming them."

IceForce:
Maybe if enough people point at Bob's recent behavior on twitter, something will be done about it.

Any self-respecting film writer would be aghast if told they were expected to insert speculation about Kim Kardashian's baby-bump into coverage of Cannes, but Joystiq or Polygon or The Escapist are derelict in their duties for not leading with "Female Game Dev Has Sex -- Possibly More Than Once!" as a main headline? Give me a break.

That's a complete misrepresentation, and you know it.

A more accurate analogy would be expecting an article about a film director or producer sleeping with one or more film critics.

Who all then went on to not review their film?

teamcharlie:
Nice to see a calm, level-headed response to a bunch of people who seem to act poorly only in order to get a response from others/media coverage (which unfortunately they seem to have continued to receive up until this point).

To those people who believe their freedom of speech is being curtailed, let me remind you: you have had and continue to have the freedom to say and write what you want, given that you keep saying and writing horrible things, but you do not have freedom from accountability for what you say. If you spew hate speech, then other people are free to respond and you probably wont like it. So, think about that before you insult, harass, oppress, threaten to murder or threaten to rape someone. There may be consequences.

Under_your_bed:

Karadalis:
You forgot to mention your rants and tirades on twitter and how you tried to get the "Sarkesian effect" removed from existance and how you insulted people bob. The same level of insults that 4chan trolls sink to.

You behaved very unprofessional on twitter and that atleast shows me that youre not ready to be called a journalist yet.

Soulrender95:

because that means that good behavior is winning out over harassment and threats

Yes, good behaviour is winning out over harassment and threats.
Only your side of this debate that has been the major harasser in this instance, you yourself bob have stooped to name calling and horrible behaviour and have not debated or questioned those of the opposing viewpoint except by labelling it misogyny and refusing to deal with it.

Hey, look at all these great sources you're providing! Just lookit'em!

http://imgur.com/a/j8P3l

To start with from Devin Faraci, who Moviebob references in his article, and from the man himself:

https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/502692856738619392

https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/502038039968112640

I mean, keeping whether or not you agree with his point seperate, it's not exactly the discourse he claims to have in his article

st0pnsw0p:
Bob, I'd just like to say that you did a great job.

At taking the attitudes and opinions of a vocal extremist minority of gamers, then lecturing all gamers as if that minority is somehow representative of the whole group.

I think that if this is your take-away from the article, which was focused on people standing together against a badly-behaving fringe, then that says more about your perspective than Bob's. If you're not a part of that badly-behaving group, how does this reflect poorly on you?

Under_your_bed:

Hey, look at all these great sources you're providing! Just lookit'em!

two tweets right here

This is just two examples of bob labelling those who disagree with him as misogynists, once directly and the second by linking others with a publicly well known misogynist, now Miss. Quinn probably did receive harassment but it seems like he's lumping everyone into one category so he can call it misogyny and ignore it, now if that wasn't his intent I'd like him to say so.

this is just a small sample and if you want more his twitter is publicly accessible, and if the burden of proof is still on me I'll go back and try to find more examples assuming he hasn't removed them.

Oh god. You had an opinion on this thing. Prepare for this thread to descend into uncivilness and chaos (by both sides) unseen even by some animal socialization circles.

*sigh*

Really depressing how the story about all this is about Quinn's sex life and not the fact that she abused the shit out of her ex. The guy even said this isn't about gaming or games journalism, but about outing an abuser, which is a really, really difficult thing to do and more-often-than-not makes the actual victim look like a scumbag. The only alternative is to stay silent and let the abuser get away with it, doing to others what she did to him.

Whether it's true or not, I will say this, if he's lying then he's really, really, really good at guessing what abusive relationships are like. Quite a bit of that post hit real close to home.

Meanwhile if anyone wants to know what actually happened, they can check out this 350+ page, 12,000+ post and still growing thread right here on the escapist http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy

Suggests there's more going on than Bob's biased rhetoric.

I agree that the overly vocal minority that starts going into actual threats of violence and senseless hatred is absolutely in the wrong here and is despicable and every other negative adjective we can conveniently think of.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut...

Is nobody going to mention the story of the Fine Young Capitalists? The project that was made to support women developing games, but got attacked by Quinn for some reason? That 4chan is actually kinda doing a great job supporting by donating thousands of dollars and designing a custom character for?

Or that TotalBiscuit made a very levelheaded and fairly neutral post (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s4nmr1/) that was pretty vociferously attacked by Quinn's people, if not Quinn herself?

It's really hard to be unbiased here when both sides are down in the mud and slinging. We've got hatred and threats from one side, and callous disdain and dismissal from the other. And neither side seems to be 100% wrong in intent, though their methods range from ineffective to blatantly awful and saddening.

It's nice to see that other critics are respecting games now, but this issue is a complex one that nobody seems to be right about. My $.02.

st0pnsw0p:
Bob, I'd just like to say that you did a great job.

At taking the attitudes and opinions of a vocal extremist minority of gamers, then lecturing all gamers as if that minority is somehow representative of the whole group.

A Quote from the Article on Badass Digest bob linked:

"But it's hard to self-identify as "a gamer" when there's also a large swathe of that community apparently committed to presenting us all as a bunch of hateful sociopaths. "

These people claim to speak for everyone, dressing themselves up as truth warriors (where truthiness would be a much better word). It is the sad fate of everyone who tries to have a well thought-out opinion on the worlds and matters of debate. Be it feminism, father's rights, liberalism or conservative thinking.
We all suffer from these type of people who claim to have the only truth and they are an abomination to society, they poison debate and progress.
It has to be said again, you need to feel offended to be offended and if you are offended by anything bob has said or tweeted (as far as I have seen it), you probably are one of these terrible people. If you are not, you are not offended and you know that he does not mean the whole of the gaming community. It is sad that it should need a disclaimer for everything these days in a way of "I know that not everyone of you is like that". Either you know you are spoken to, or you know you are not.

OT: Bob, thanks.

Windknight:
So, the harassing conspiracy theorists got media outside games journalism to take note of what was going on just like they wanted, only instead of getting portrayed as the heroic truth tellers they wanted to be seen as, they got shown as the vicious, lying scum they really are?

Does this fall under irony, schadenfreude, or both?

Unfortunately conveniently forgetting that some of the media from outside games journalism took the side of the "harassing conspiracy theorists" as well.

Canyoureadmydeadpan:
A great video explaining movie bob and why this week I'm done with him for good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpy_SEeDZ4Y

The past couple of months, including this controversy, have made me wonder if I want to keep watching Bob. But come on, this video is horrible. It starts out by saying he is worse than Chernobyl. It then says he's horrible for a funny joke in his first episode of Big Picture. I may think the guy has sort of gone over the deep end with all the "SJW" type stuff he's been doing/talking about, but this video is just as bad. I may not agree with Bob, but please don't go around flinging insults at him. He's still a person and deserves at least a modicum of respect.

Oh boy, another Zoe Quinn thread. I wonder if this one will get over 10,000 replies as well...

Mirrorknight:
Oh god. You had an opinion on this thing. Prepare for this thread to descend into uncivilness and chaos (by both sides) unseen even by some animal socialization circles.

Leave the rope, I'm climbing up behind you!

Spot on Bob. Devin Faraci is awesome, as is Badass Digest. Treating those "people" with all the respect they've earned. I love that so many of them cried out for more wide spread exposure to the issue, only to find that pretty much everyone agrees that they're acting like vicious little rodents.

Hiramas:

st0pnsw0p:
Bob, I'd just like to say that you did a great job.

At taking the attitudes and opinions of a vocal extremist minority of gamers, then lecturing all gamers as if that minority is somehow representative of the whole group.

A Quote from the Article on Badass Digest bob linked:

"But it's hard to self-identify as "a gamer" when there's also a large swathe of that community apparently committed to presenting us all as a bunch of hateful sociopaths. "

These people claim to speak for everyone, dressing themselves up as truth warriors (where truthiness would be a much better word). It is the sad fate of everyone who tries to have a well thought-out opinion on the worlds and matters of debate. Be it feminism, father's rights, liberalism or conservative thinking.
We all suffer from these type of people who claim to have the only truth and they are an abomination to society, they poison debate and progress.
It has to be said again, you need to feel offended to be offended and if you are offended by anything bob has said or tweeted (as far as I have seen it), you probably are one of these terrible people. If you are not, you are not offended and you know that he does not mean the whole of the gaming community. It is sad that it should need a disclaimer for everything these days in a way of "I know that not everyone of you is like that". Either you know you are spoken to, or you know you are not.

OT: Bob, thanks.

That isn't true at all. It's entirely possible to be offended without being the direct target. Otherwise Bob can't claim to be offended by harassment against women because it isn't targeted at him. Most people are not offend because they feel he is directly referring to them, they are offend because his attitude is extremely toxic.

Way back when, about 14 years ago, I wrote a column titled Garwulf's Corner for Diabloii.net. It was one of the first video games issues columns on the Internet (quite literally, game coverage up to that point could be divided into reviews, previews, and strategy guides). And, during the two year run of my column (2000-2002), a woman going by the name of Katya (as I recall) wrote a lengthy forum post about what it was like to be a female Counterstrike player.

The reaction by the forum at large? Well, most of the reactions could be described as "I hadn't thought of that - thank you for sharing!" along with quite a lot of gratitude for her speaking her mind and bringing these issues to the forum's attention. There were a few people who acted like jerks, but they were shouted down and put in their place by the rest of the forum. That was about 13, 14 years ago.

Today? If she had posted the very same thing, she would have been buried under the slut shaming. How did we fall so far that violent misogyny and slut shaming has become part of gaming culture?

EDIT: Corrected "blog" to "forum."

Canyoureadmydeadpan:
A great video explaining movie bob and why this week I'm done with him for good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpy_SEeDZ4Y

So are you going to show up in every Moviebob thread to explain why you're "Done" with him? Cause that's not really done by any definition that I know of.

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