Jimquisition: Stupid Sexy Bayonetta

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Stupid Sexy Bayonetta

A discussion on why it's cool to like Bayonetta, and why it's cool not to.

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it's nice just to be able and sit down, and just talk about games and not worry about the silly industry for a change. Don't you think so Jim?

Great video, as always, Mr. Sterling! I also agree, that I really enjoy Bayonetta as a character, while acknowledging that not everyone has the same opinion, and their opinions are just as valid as mine. Not everyone has to have the same opinion, and shouldn't feel bad on whether they like Bayonetta or not.

And also, I stop listening to others when they first denounce harassment and death threats, and then throw in a "however." Makes the point void, and reduces the person's credibility.

50 seconds in and I already feel the need to point of that everyone that uses #gamergate/#stopgamergate has about the same amount of perspective, none whatsoever.

Post watching:
After watching the video I feel the need to point out to Sterling that when you are negatively criticizing one side's problems, but never the other side's, you come off like a supporter of the other side.

Yeah, I loved the original Bayonetta and, judging from the reviews I've read at least, will probably love Bayonetta 2. But that "Operation Bayonetta 2" thing was laughably pathetic.

Can't wait for Friday though! :D

Might tide myself over by picked up Legend Of Korra too. I'm not quite sure what we've done to deserve two Platinum games in one week, but I love it.

"Misogyny" is probably the funniest of our society's imaginary problems.

VoidOfOne:
And also, I stop listening to others when they first denounce harassment and death threats, and then throw in a "however." Makes the point void, and reduces the person's credibility.

It's similar to those who say, "I'm not racist but...". No no, just stop there. It doesn't excuse you from being racist so just stop. I ignore them best I can.

Most definitely agree about not sticking the "however..." on, though I think the cliche is "but...".

I don't really see the character as anything other then a fetishistic character... i don't see anything redeemable about her... and of course being on wii u means I don't have to which is nice since I wasn't suckered into buying the dreamcast 2.. i mean.. Wii u and have no plans to.. BUT....if another player want's to enjoy bayonetta, go for it I guess.. if you can find a reason to like the game's character then good, everyone likes different things so I say enjoy.. just keep her away from me.

All those jackasses participating in "Operation Bayonetta 2" could have taken that chance to let Nintendo know that they want more games like this. That they want Nintendo to go to games that are in a bit of a bad spot and give them the money needed to see the light of day like Bayo 2 or Devil's Third. But no. TEH EBUL SJW HOARDS MUST BE STOPPED! But then again, a lot of these people won't actually get the game because a lot of them were most likely screeching "teh wiiu iz inferior hardware" until this happened.

As for Bayonetta herself, I do think she's a good character with a few problematic things in the presentation. Nothing wrong with admitting something you like could have some less-than-perfect things.

And yes, "I don't condone harassment, however..." is the new "I'm not racist, but..."

I agree 100%.
I find Bayonetta to be a "strong female character" according to her actions and the plot and the story and all that...
But I find the presentation to be........................... too stripper.

Sort of how I find District 1 in the Hunger Games movies to be extremely homophobic...
Like I realize that rich opulence isn't inherently gay. (gay man anyways)
But the way the movies present rich opulence is.... just to make everyone look like drag queens and act like the stereotypical gay man or "poof".

Which, much like Bayonetta's presentation, has some intrinsic and problematic social ramifications.

15 min late. Are you serious? I've seen this happenning a lot of times before. At least be honest when you post it, because it's not perfectly o'clock.

I very much agree with the idea that if you go with a bonkers enough setup you can get away with anything Bayonetta is obviously very gratuitous in its sexuality but this is game where giant hair monsters beat up "angels" which are actually 50 feet tall dragons with baby faces. To me it's kinda like those 80s and 90s action movies where you accept that Arnold Schwarzenegger can throw a saw blade hard enough to chop off someone's head because earlier you saw him lift up a phone booth with someone in it and flipped a car with he bare hands


I don't have an opinion on Bayonetta as I haven't played the original & don't intend on buying a Wii U.

Jim I must I applaud you not just for the title but for the title.

Mr. Omega:
All those jackasses participating in "Operation Bayonetta 2" could have taken that chance to let Nintendo know that they want more games like this. That they want Nintendo to go to games that are in a bit of a bad spot and give them the money needed to see the light of day like Bayo 2 or Devil's Third. But no. TEH EBUL SJW HOARDS MUST BE STOPPED! But then again, a lot of these people won't actually get the game because a lot of them were most likely screeching "teh wiiu iz inferior hardware" until this happened.

As for Bayonetta herself, I do think she's a good character with a few problematic things in the presentation. Nothing wrong with admitting something you like could have some less-than-perfect things.

And yes, "I don't condone harassment, however..." is the new "I'm not racist, but..."

This would have happened if people remembered that 7.5 is not that bad a score and the reviewer's opinion could just be ignored, left in the ether and enjoy a quality product. Also yeah Operation Bayonetta. Just why?

I take exception to the "I denounce death threats and harassment however..." because that however could be: "I'm about to make a brew and a butty so can we discuss this more in 5 minutes." IS an acceptable clause to add... man the number of brews I've been denied because an internet argument has suddenly engaged me and I've gotten involved... and then I get angry because I've not had my cup of tea and I'm upset... we should end this white washing of tea harassment by the coffee drinking beverage-archy with their coffee already brewed in percolators.

#cuppagate.
(Please don't take that seriously, I'm not comparing being denied a delicious hot beverage to justification of harassment in anything more than a satirical sense).

On to the video itself, you raise a good point sir. I do agree, it's perfectly fine to dislike something for any reason (except Pacific Rim, if you don't like that you're a soulless husk of a being), but this also ties into the meta-critic debate and over all, the prevention of aggregate scores in general, something I feel strongly on, a review should stand on the writers merits and tastes and not on a pseudo-rating of "7 out of 10 because of reasons" (substitute reasons with mechanical, design, thematic or artistic opinion).

I guess it's more accurate to say, I don't feel attaching a score to something can accurately represent a nuanced well crafted opinion in favour of/against something, I think it cheapens the authorial intent and adds undue pressure onto the industry, but having never been an industry writer, I'm coming at this from an outsiders perspective, so take my opinion (but not your tea) with a pinch of salt.

But that's a whole other debate and I know you're mostly in favour of scores Jimothy.

Paradox SuXcess:
It's similar to those who say, "I'm not racist but...". No no, just stop there. It doesn't excuse you from being racist so just stop. I ignore them best I can.

Again I'd add a caveat, "I'm not racist but... how much is this stereo and what's the trade in price on my old one." is a perfectly acceptable statement to make in any society, as demonstrated by wonderful cross dressing heavy metal comedian Andrew O'Niel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrgygfwnCJ0

Iluvatar21:
15 min late. Are you serious? I've seen this happening a lot of times before. At least be honest when you post it, because it's not perfectly o'clock.

Interesting, because I got it at 9:00 am on the dot.

Supposed it's to be expected, considering the different regions everyone is in.

Hey, she's a witch, after all. They're all about some lovely sex.

I feel that the root problem is that people have attached far too much of their identity and feeling of self-worth into certain games, or gaming as a whole. I imagine that is why having a problem with a detail in a game can be interpreted as an all-out attack. That isn't exactly helped by the odd tendencies towards binary exclusives. All is well or everything's gone to hell. A game is great or a game is shite. Tens and twos.

Now, since those Leifeldian monsters flashed by, I shall go blind myself.

Love the progressive mentality when it comes to twisting narratives, now you aren't even aloud to speak your mind anymore because now you have to frame any conversation in a way they demand or they won't even listen to you lol. So much for freedom of speech and due process because if they can cut you off before you speak or are even get a chance to defend yourself then they win by default.

Never played Bayonetta, PC master race and all that,but I agree that developers should be allowed to create a character like that. Its simple artistic freedom.

While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Makes the whole thing sound a tad disingenuous.
As for the whole discussing of these sorts of things, yeah that would be awesome... however the whole mess that the community at large is currently embroiled in is in no small part due to a lack to out right refusal to discus things

Andy Shandy:
Might tide myself over by picked up Legend Of Korra too. I'm not quite sure what we've done to deserve two Platinum games in one week, but I love it.

*Umbra Fist Bump.gif*

Wait, Operation Bayonetta 2 was a thing? O_o

Paradox SuXcess:

VoidOfOne:
And also, I stop listening to others when they first denounce harassment and death threats, and then throw in a "however." Makes the point void, and reduces the person's credibility.

It's similar to those who say, "I'm not racist but...". No no, just stop there. It doesn't excuse you from being racist so just stop. I ignore them best I can.

I very much agree. There's always that twinge in me that wants me to read on just to see how deep a hole that person has dug themselves into. But, seriously, to make such a statement shows a severe lack of empathy, and that the person making it doesn't feel that he or she is in the wrong, or rather that the point they have to make has much more merit than the first point.

Another statement to add to that would be "With all due respect..." which is followed by saying something rather disrespectful, most of the time. Then again, perhaps the subject intended is due little or no respect.

In any case, I like Bayonetta's new look.

Muspelheim:
I feel that the root problem is that people have attached far too much of their identity and feeling of self-worth into certain games, or gaming as a whole.

I get what you're saying here, that attaching a defining opinion to yourself as one thing only serves to cheapen the human interactive experience. BUT as someone who's primary hobbies and interests (Computer games, Warhammer, DnD, board games etc) are all games related, I would say safely when asked about my hobbies "I'm a gamer mostly" is an excellent short hand for describing that without making myself sound like some kind of salesman pitching myself and my interests to other people, from that the conversation can drift to "cool, what kinda games do you like?" or to "Cool, what else do you do?" depending on the persons level of interest.

And as someone who does these things and they feel good, yeah I put a lot of my self worth into it (mainly into warhammer) because "Bro that model looks awesome" is an awesome and affirming thing to hear. :)

"Yes even feminist disagree with each other, and no, they don't threaten to come each others house to do murder" -Jim Sterling

Truer words have never been spoken Jim! No matter what those nasty people whose genitalia dangles on the outside may say, no Feminist has ever made death threats to another, for su... hang on, I am getting a call here. Hello? Ah it's Erin Prizzey, and she would like to have a word with you Jimmy, old mate: http://youtu.be/wAgYsvykEb8?t=3m50s
You can get your own conclusions there, I won't say anything more on the matter on account of fearing for my life.

OT: Interesting take on the sexualization. Though I feel saying that "she wears it because she wants to wear it" can be applied to almost any fanservice-character.

Kuro Serpentina:
While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Makes the whole thing sound a tad disingenuous.
As for the whole discussing of these sorts of things, yeah that would be awesome... however the whole mess that the community at large is currently embroiled in is in no small part due to a lack to out right refusal to discus things

It's one thing to question the reviewer, quite another to tell Nintendo to change its business practices with a gaming website due to the review. Call foul if you want, but you change the whole argument when you call for Nintendo to "cut Polygon out of Nintendo Press Material." It's no longer about simply disagreeing with the review or reviewer (which is everyone's right to do), but now the call is to hinder Polygon for simply doing what they have been allowed to do. And the latter helps no one except for the egos of the people who took "offense" to the points made in the review they disagreed with.

I agree...but doesn't tie back in to other things you've talked about Jim? About whose fault controversies are?
Bayonetta dresses as her character choose. Great. Except bullshit. Bayonetta is not a person. She is not real. Someone, most likely a man, WROTE her. They wrote 'Bayonetta kills bosses by ripping her clothes off and sucking on lolipops' ...and that's just cool, because...why? Bayonetta has no agency, not identity beyond that of a sexualized woman. We don't see Bayonetta renting movies and having a relaxing night at home with some popcorn. We don't see Bayonetta filing up her car with gas, or doing her taxes or washing her clothes. We only see her as a sex object, something to be oogled and fapped to because that's all she is. That is how she, as a nonperson, was written.

Put it thing way: If Bayonetta was written in the 90s, or was a comic book character, would anyone attempt to defend her? Somehow, I doubt it.

I refuse to buy Bayonetta 2 until they change the title for Kathleen de Vere: The Video Game.
image

In all seriousness, though: Yeah, pretty much. I like Bayonetta as a character, just like I appreciated what Lollipop Chainsaw had to say about objectification, but I also understand why some can't stand them.

I really want a WiiU, so I can play an actually good version of the original (PS3 version is so fuckawful I couldn't play past level four, but I really like the idea) and 2. Please, deities of employment, hear my prayers.

I laughed so hard when you kept zooming in on the "Team Ninja" slide.

The I'm Not Racist Butt should hang out around social media more.

image

Also, is there some sort of secret to not being angry when somebody doesn't like something that you like that I unknowingly have in my possession? Hell, one of my favourite videogames from last gen got panned for having terrible AI (absolutely true), a nearly non-existent narrative (true), ludonarrative dissonance with what little narrative there was (I'd agree that this is the case on the easier difficulties), had terrible controls on console (abso-fucking-lutey. There's a different sensitivity for the X axis and Y axis, but you can only adjust one of them - its actually easier to aim by strafing than aiming), and a whole bunch more issues. Doesn't stop it from being one of my favourite games of last gen, one of my favourite games ever.

Andy Shandy:
Yeah, I loved the original Bayonetta and, judging from the reviews I've read at least, will probably love Bayonetta 2. But that "Operation Bayonetta 2" thing was laughably pathetic.

Can't wait for Friday though! :D

Might tide myself over by picked up Legend Of Korra too. I'm not quite sure what we've done to deserve two Platinum games in one week, but I love it.

You gonna like Bayo2???
= You have a WiiU!
= You need to join user group WiiU Online Multiplayer so we can play it together :D

On Topic:
Nice episode.
Haven't played the first Bayo so I pre-ordered the one were I get the first one also, so I get 2 games on friday and all these videos of the game get me very excited :)

Silentpony:
I agree...but doesn't tie back in to other things you've talked about Jim? About whose fault controversies are?
Bayonetta dresses are her characters choose. Great. Except bullshit. Bayonetta is not a person. She is not real. Someone, most likely a man, WROTE her. They wrote 'Bayonetta kills bosses by ripping her clothes off and sucking on lolipops' ...and that's just cool, because...why? Bayonetta has no agency, not identity beyond that of a sexualized woman. We don't see Bayonetta renting movies and having a relaxing night at home with some popcorn. We don't see Bayonetta filing up her car with gas, or doing her taxes or washing her clothes. We only see her as a sex object, something to be oogled and fapped to because that's all she is. That is how she, as a nonperson, was written.

Quite right but I do disagree with you. Bayonetta is a sexy character most likely written by a man, but that doesn't cheapen her representation, she is displayed and written as a strong woman, enjoying herself and her life as much possible and using her power to achieve her goals in a way she finds appealing. She is, as much as I hate these terms "Sex Positive" (I don't hate what it means, I just hate that they call it "sex positive" because when done right, sex is always positive).

And whilst yes, her personality and actions are restricted by the writer/player relationship, the way it's presented is key, one could argue that her sexuality is overt and over the top it transcends "sexy" into camp absurdism, Bayonetta is to video games, what the sexually charged and motivated Rocky Horror Picture Show is to movies, the sexiness, sexualisation and erotically charged characters of both, were indeed written by men. But given the lack of Janet Weiss' agency in the story, other than engaging in sexually dramatic moments and later being literally brainwashed with sex and sexuality, wouldn't that be just as troubling a story? Assuming of course you read it that way.

Art is always about interpretation beyond the surface and both views are just as viable. :)

So come at me with your well reasoned opinion bro/sis. Let's discuss this further. :D

I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.

Feminist Frequency producer Jonathan McIntosh says it pretty well, I think:

https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521798927163482112
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522065989890879488
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522101671447388160

So yeah, when the - shall we say - ''intensely devoted'' Bayonetta fans come out of the woodwork to defend her honor and agency I basically react like this:

That being said, I didn't particularly like the first Bayonetta (nor do I care for PlatinumGames' output in general) and am apathetic towards Bayonetta as a character, so take it as you will.

Kuro Serpentina:
While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.

Have you ever considered that some people find it uncomfortable when people try tp inject sex into a beat-em-up videogame? That maybe some people like to keep their sexual fantasies in one realm and videogames in another? That maybe many people don't play games for masturbation material but for a difference experience? It doesn't necessarily make you a prude because you don't like sex in videogames, and in my experience, most people don't like it because they don't want sexual fantasies in the same realm as gaming. I can only speak for myself, but if I wanted porn, I'd go watch porn. If I wanted a lap dance, I'd go get a lap dance, not experience a lap dance between shooting galleries in Duke Nukem. Its the same reason that when people generally want some excitement in their life and do something, like, say, skydiving, they don't bring sex workers skydiving with them.

kuolonen:
"Yes even feminist disagree with each other, and no, they don't threaten to come each others house to do murder" -Jim Sterling

Truer words have never been spoken Jim! No matter what those nasty people whose genitalia dangles on the outside may say, no Feminist has ever made death threats to another, for su... hang on, I am getting a call here. Hello? Ah it's Erin Prizzey, and she would like to have a word with you Jimmy, old mate

Erin Prizzey claimed her dog was killed by feminists. And later claimed her dog was attacked by feminists, but survived.

Erin Prizzey lied and she shouldn't be trusted.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn she doesn't even have a dog.

"I think Bayonetta is sexist because it has gratuitous ass and crotch shots" <- Gets across that it's opinion, won't cause any issue from me.
"Bayonetta is sexist because it has gratuitous ass and crotch shots" <- Immediately earns my ire, expressing opinion as fact.

Also, the first 50 seconds of that video was the most condescending assery I've experienced in a long time. People were dicks to you on twitter, that's awful. Don't take it out on your audience.

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