The Super Mario Apocalypse Will Never Arrive

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The Super Mario Apocalypse Will Never Arrive

It is the nature of man to want to believe that he is living in the end times, so I can't help feeling that Super Mario Maker represents a natural conclusion of some kind.

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I wonder if a 3D Mario Maker would be met with the same exuberance by the community that Super Mario Maker has? That's an interesting notion.

"Whatever happens next, that emperor is probably not going to be able to continue ruling from where he left off any time soon. Everyone's seen how all his tricks work."

The problem is that we HAVEN'T seen how all his tricks work.

Nintendo can always come up with new power-ups, new enemies, new mechanics, new terrain types, etc etc that aren't in Super Mario Maker. They can also make 'stylized' 2D platformers--that is, like traditional games of the series but with some huge, main twist--like Yoshi's Woolly World and Kirby's Epic Yarn.

The other advantage of an actual Nintendo Mario game is that you KNOW it's a collection of good levels, whereas with a huge collection of publicly-made levels you need to steal with Sturgeon's Law.

And of course, even if the 2D Mario games stop, they're only a small part of the Mario franchise--there's still the 3D platformers, the sports games, the RPGs, the random spin-offs (like Mario Party), and the sub-franchises under other characters (Luigi, Yoshi, Wario, etc).

Bad Player:
"Whatever happens next, that emperor is probably not going to be able to continue ruling from where he left off any time soon. Everyone's seen how all his tricks work."

The problem is that we HAVEN'T seen how all his tricks work.

Nintendo can always come up with new power-ups, new enemies, new mechanics, new terrain types, etc etc that aren't in Super Mario Maker. They can also make 'stylized' 2D platformers--that is, like traditional games of the series but with some huge, main twist--like Yoshi's Woolly World and Kirby's Epic Yarn.

The other advantage of an actual Nintendo Mario game is that you KNOW it's a collection of good levels, whereas with a huge collection of publicly-made levels you need to steal with Sturgeon's Law.

And of course, even if the 2D Mario games stop, they're only a small part of the Mario franchise--there's still the 3D platformers, the sports games, the RPGs, the random spin-offs (like Mario Party), and the sub-franchises under other characters (Luigi, Yoshi, Wario, etc).

I was coming in to say basically this, and then a new thought struck me.

What if, when releasing new 2D Mario platformers, Nintendo releases whatever new mechanics the games have as DLC for Mario Maker? Maybe some sort of bundle deal, like the DLC is half off or free if you buy the game they come from. Seems to me to be a pretty profitable venture.

Supahewok:

Bad Player:
"Whatever happens next, that emperor is probably not going to be able to continue ruling from where he left off any time soon. Everyone's seen how all his tricks work."

The problem is that we HAVEN'T seen how all his tricks work.

Nintendo can always come up with new power-ups, new enemies, new mechanics, new terrain types, etc etc that aren't in Super Mario Maker. They can also make 'stylized' 2D platformers--that is, like traditional games of the series but with some huge, main twist--like Yoshi's Woolly World and Kirby's Epic Yarn.

The other advantage of an actual Nintendo Mario game is that you KNOW it's a collection of good levels, whereas with a huge collection of publicly-made levels you need to steal with Sturgeon's Law.

And of course, even if the 2D Mario games stop, they're only a small part of the Mario franchise--there's still the 3D platformers, the sports games, the RPGs, the random spin-offs (like Mario Party), and the sub-franchises under other characters (Luigi, Yoshi, Wario, etc).

I was coming in to say basically this, and then a new thought struck me.

What if, when releasing new 2D Mario platformers, Nintendo releases whatever new mechanics the games have as DLC for Mario Maker? Maybe some sort of bundle deal, like the DLC is half off or free if you buy the game they come from. Seems to me to be a pretty profitable venture.

Heh. More like the DLC would be free if you buy the game, activate the Amiibo for the game (if you can find it) and have the amiibo card deck.

But yeah, cynicism aside, that does sound like a great idea.

Thing is, there is no cohesion to any of the creations in Mario Maker. Because levels are all self contained you can't really make a complete Mario experience in the game. When trying to place rewards in a level for finding a secret or going the hardmode path, you can only really reward players with a shortcut to the end. There is nothing short of x3 1ups you can take with you between stages.

Not to mention the fact that 99% of Mario Maker levels are utter trash or auto plays. Something tells me Nintendo just made this game to prove to people we still need seasoned game designers to put our world's together. There are great levels out there but you really need to dig deep to find them.

I feel like, whether they intended to or not, Nintendo has forced their own hand here. There's nothing preventing them from making more 2D Mario games, but they absolutely need to feel fresh. The franchise used to innovate, to add new features, to take different approaches to level design, to change its art and music styles, and generally make each new Mario game feel like a unique product despite being the same at their core. The NSMB games, on the other hand, have all felt stagnant in comparison. I mean, sure, New Super Mario Bros. U was a good game, but everything about it felt like an expansion pack to New Super Mario Bros. Wii, which in turn felt like an expansion pack to New Super Mario Bros. But now, they don't have that option anymore. The next 2D Mario game has to have its own identity. It's the only way it can compete with Super Mario Maker.

P.S. Thanks

Supahewok:
What if, when releasing new 2D Mario platformers, Nintendo releases whatever new mechanics the games have as DLC for Mario Maker? Maybe some sort of bundle deal, like the DLC is half off or free if you buy the game they come from. Seems to me to be a pretty profitable venture.

I was thinking the same thing when I saw this:

Yahtzee:
Not that I want to imply that Super Mario Maker is anything remotely close to releasing the source code for any of the games it incorporates, but even so, any future official 2D Mario platformers are going to be automatically kneecapped by two immediate questions - couldn't this have been made in Super Mario Maker, and why should we buy it when we can continue playing the theoretically infinite content provided by the community?

Because if they don't provide the tools, you know damn well that the community will kludge something together to make it happen in Mario Maker. I'm still amazed when I remember Trials Files and how people turned a 2D motorcycle game into pinball, a 3d shooter, Marble Madness, and a ton of other great things that have nothing to do with the original concept. Anything in a future Mario game will be reverse-engineered, shared on forums, and become part of Mario Maker, officially or not.

Sure, the level selection is lousy now, but given some time the kiddies will forget about it and the fanatics will start building wonders.

Nintendo could also be looking for creativity. MediaMolecule did the same thing with Little Big Planet. Someone created things that even Media Molecule didn't think was possible and they ended up hiring him to work on games.

Here's the thing, Yahtzee might be entirely correct. Miyamoto said this back in September,

"Doing this now at the 30th anniversary [of Super Mario Bros.] is really putting some more of that creativity into the players. But at the same time, we as the developers feel that it's time for us to move in a new direction, and we're preparing to work on the future of Super Mario from here on."

So it might very well be the end of 2D Mario games as we know it.

All you need to do is look at Yoshi's New Island and you can see that 2D platforming is dead at Nintendo. That thing is a sickly corpse. I can't imagine Woolly World fares much better.

But I suspect some form of Mario Maker containing Super Mario Bros 2 is inevitable. The game is just too popular - after all, they lead with that one in the Super Mario Advance series.

Another way they could raise the stakes would be to foray into a new genre. We have platforming, racing and RPG. Is a Mario shooter/strategy/stealth/survival iteration completely out of the question? How far can you move before Mario stops being Mario?

Now we have Mario Maker, that actually frees Nintendo to try something more experimental with the 2D Mario form. Take the core mechanic of "Mario runs and jumps on monsters and over obstacles" and do something else. There'll be loads of backroom boys at the Big N with some bizarre idea that just might work.

09philj:
Now we have Mario Maker, that actually frees Nintendo to try something more experimental with the 2D Mario form. Take the core mechanic of "Mario runs and jumps on monsters and over obstacles" and do something else. There'll be loads of backroom boys at the Big N with some bizarre idea that just might work.

When was the last time in recent history that Nintendo applied "bizarre ideas" on their flagship franchises such as Mario or Pokemon, 3D notwithstanding?

Johnny Novgorod:

When was the last time in recent history that Nintendo applied "bizarre ideas" on their flagship franchises such as Mario or Pokemon, 3D notwithstanding?

Pokemon Contests/ Super Contests; Super Training; Super Mario Sunshine; Super Mario Maker itself; most of what's happened in the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi series, particularly Bowser's Inside Story; Wind Waker (or indeed, any 3D Zelda since OoT has been drastically different both mechanically and stylistically to the ones before). To expand on what 09philj said: they've already been providing a fair number of courses in both 2D and 3D Mario which don't boil down to avoiding obstacles, and rely on other approaches to the mechanics.

They may rely overmuch on a relatively small stable of franchises (that, I'd agree with), but the notion that they don't innovate within those franchises is silliness. They do so more than the vast majority of other developers.

Jorpho:

But I suspect some form of Mario Maker containing Super Mario Bros 2 is inevitable. The game is just too popular - after all, they lead with that one in the Super Mario Advance series.

Yep, though back then, they did not have nearly as sophisticated data-gathering methods. As far as I know, the mechanics of SMB2 are actually pretty unpopular, and I'd be surprised if we saw a SMB2 mode in SMM before we saw expansion of the existing modes (Koopalings!).

I'm not sure Mario will ever die at this point. Once you reach a certain level of household name-ness you can never truly die; you just go dormant for a few years at a time, wait for the nostalgia to rebuild and then pick up where you left off

Sonic is the opposite example. A household name that keeps going, but is dead to all who really cared about it.

I disagreed with Yahtzee when he said that New Super Mario Bros. Wii was a game that had "no right to exist", but I think that criticism definitely applies to Super Mario Maker, in my opinion it is the very definition of a game that has no right to exist, I just can't fathom why anyone would want to pay 60 dollars for a level editor, it sounds like a waste of money to me.

Thanatos2k:

I'm not sure Mario will ever die at this point. Once you reach a certain level of household name-ness you can never truly die; you just go dormant for a few years at a time, wait for the nostalgia to rebuild and then pick up where you left off

Sonic is the opposite example. A household name that keeps going, but is dead to all who really cared about it.

Not really, Sonic's games still sell pretty well, so he is most definitely not "dead" to those like me that care about the franchise.

Johnny Novgorod:
Another way they could raise the stakes would be to foray into a new genre. We have platforming, racing and RPG. Is a Mario shooter/strategy/stealth/survival iteration completely out of the question? How far can you move before Mario stops being Mario?

Did you forget about Yoshi's Safari? Of course you did.

Silvanus:
Yep, though back then, they did not have nearly as sophisticated data-gathering methods. As far as I know, the mechanics of SMB2 are actually pretty unpopular, and I'd be surprised if we saw a SMB2 mode in SMM before we saw expansion of the existing modes (Koopalings!).

Oh, I think they knew what they were doing. (There are also indications that more of the mechanics might have made their way into the e-card levels of SMA4.) But you're probably right about the Koopalings; they've been beating those to death.

Jorpho:

Johnny Novgorod:
Another way they could raise the stakes would be to foray into a new genre. We have platforming, racing and RPG. Is a Mario shooter/strategy/stealth/survival iteration completely out of the question? How far can you move before Mario stops being Mario?

Did you forget about Yoshi's Safari? Of course you did.

So what you're saying is they really have nowhere to go?

Johnny Novgorod:

Jorpho:
Did you forget about Yoshi's Safari? Of course you did.

So what you're saying is they really have nowhere to go?

I'm just saying they did that once before, and considering how badly it came out, they're unlikely to go that way again. But nowhere to go? They'll figure something out.

we REALLY need more mario rpgs.....don't get me wrong, I ADORE the Bros series, the paper games...they're all loads of fun. but please...Nintendo...just...dust off the peace gloves..shake hands with square again....and give us a SMRPG2.....or more geno

hey, a guy can dream ^^;;

The problem with your way to thinking is that you assume that they can't make a 2D Mario with something actually new that wasn't in any way in Super Mario Maker. Now I'm not saying it's easy. I've been thinking quite a while about the same thing and, honestly, if it was up to me, this would indeed be the end of the line. I could add new mobs and stuff, but in the end it would be just the same with some differences. But I believe that Nintendo and their creativity can overcome this and give us something completely new. It wouldn't be the first time they did this.

Nintendo loves to live in their comfort zone, but every now and then when they leave, they throw us some something extremely creative and good that you just can't deny that talent that they have. So they will surprise us once again with the 2D Mario. Whether it's with the next game or the one afterwards, I don't know. I'm waiting.

And to the people saying how the selection of the levels in Mario Maker is bad, well I agree for now, but I think that in the future, we will be getting more and more good and creative levels and less of the bad or auto playing levels.
The people that aren't that good at making levels will slowly move on and find other games, the fanatics and talented people will keep playing it. And every time something creative is found, someone else will use it and make something even better and more creative. Not long ago people didn't know how to make boss battles properly, now we have checkpoints and boss battles through the same mechanics.

Every now and then the 11/10 piece of magic comes out and inspires a lot of new levels, good and bad. But as time moves on, only those really dedicated will stay and they will keep making better levels.

Johnny Novgorod:
Another way they could raise the stakes would be to foray into a new genre. We have platforming, racing and RPG. Is a Mario shooter/strategy/stealth/survival iteration completely out of the question? How far can you move before Mario stops being Mario?

Splatoon was initially thought to be a Mario shooter. But the team felt it would be better as a new franchise rather than a Mario spin-off.
And Mario stealth sounds interesting. Bowser realized that kidnapping Peach means nothing if he doesn't deal with Mario beforehand so he has stolen all the power up of the kingdom. With Mario being weak, he has no choice but to take the slow and stealthy route through the Mushroom kingdom.
A strategy game would play from Peach's perspective, she would control the Mushroom kingdom's army of mushroom to defend against Bowser's invasion. Thought that ones too violent so not gonna happen. More of a Zelda type of game.

Michael Prymula:
I disagreed with Yahtzee when he said that New Super Mario Bros. Wii was a game that had "no right to exist", but I think that criticism definitely applies to Super Mario Maker, in my opinion it is the very definition of a game that has no right to exist, I just can't fathom why anyone would want to pay 60 dollars for a level editor, it sounds like a waste of money to me.

I think you should thank NoA for that. In Europe the game was like 40 euro, same as Splatoon. Not a full retail price.
Also go on youtube and watch some creative levels and you will see why it has every damn right to exist. People have been asking Nintendo for a Mario level editor for years now. Nintendo delivered (well not 100% as many wanted but still in a pretty good shape).

I just find it funny how people claim Mario doesn't innovate or experiment enough, when in fact it's clear people have no clue what "innovation" actually means. The problem with that is most "innovation" people claim is merely fixing flaws that were in a series. Mario has never had that problem; like Zelda, Metroid, and Tetris, there was nothing flawed in Mario at the base level thus any "innovation" (i.e. gimmicks to make the game seem more unique than it really was) wasn't needed.

As for Mario Maker being a "natural conclusion" of some sorts, that's a load of crap. Fact of the matter is that it's just what it is: it's Nintendo releasing a level editor. Let's face it, when it comes to Nintendo they've has always lulled into a false sense of security before whacking with a frying pan when we least expect it. But I guess I'm the only one who studies history.

BiH-Kira:

A strategy game would play from Peach's perspective, she would control the Mushroom kingdom's army of mushroom to defend against Bowser's invasion. Thought that ones too violent so not gonna happen. More of a Zelda type of game.

A strategy game I can really see. It wouldn't need to be violent; could be more like the strategic defence mini-game from FF7. Play as Peach, with Toads, Pink Bob-Ombs and castle defences; or play as the Koopa Troop... man, this sounds great!

I think it should be "Some of them, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, predicted a traditional religious apocalypse." Because saying "Some of them predicted a traditional religious apocalypse, like the Jehovah's Witnesses" implies that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the disast--- Oh. Oh! I see what you did there.

Michael Prymula:

Thanatos2k:

I'm not sure Mario will ever die at this point. Once you reach a certain level of household name-ness you can never truly die; you just go dormant for a few years at a time, wait for the nostalgia to rebuild and then pick up where you left off

Sonic is the opposite example. A household name that keeps going, but is dead to all who really cared about it.

Not really, Sonic's games still sell pretty well, so he is most definitely not "dead" to those like me that care about the franchise.

They sell well, but they're terrible. I guess I should have specified - people who really cared about it and also have standards.

Fappy:
Thing is, there is no cohesion to any of the creations in Mario Maker. Because levels are all self contained you can't really make a complete Mario experience in the game. When trying to place rewards in a level for finding a secret or going the hardmode path, you can only really reward players with a shortcut to the end. There is nothing short of x3 1ups you can take with you between stages.

Not to mention the fact that 99% of Mario Maker levels are utter trash or auto plays. Something tells me Nintendo just made this game to prove to people we still need seasoned game designers to put our world's together. There are great levels out there but you really need to dig deep to find them.

It reminds me a little bit about the community Portal 2 maps: there are a few guys out there creating excellent level progressions, and all it takes to find them is searching the "name, part current+1." I don't think it's been out long enough to draw any definitive conclusions.

Thanatos2k:

Michael Prymula:

Thanatos2k:

Sonic is the opposite example. A household name that keeps going, but is dead to all who really cared about it.

Not really, Sonic's games still sell pretty well, so he is most definitely not "dead" to those like me that care about the franchise.

They sell well, but they're terrible. I guess I should have specified - people who really cared about it and also have standards.

No that's not true at all, they're not "terrible" just cause you say so. Plenty of people liked Unleashed, Colors and Lost World.

Michael Prymula:

Thanatos2k:

Michael Prymula:
Not really, Sonic's games still sell pretty well, so he is most definitely not "dead" to those like me that care about the franchise.

They sell well, but they're terrible. I guess I should have specified - people who really cared about it and also have standards.

No that's not true at all, they're not "terrible" just cause you say so. Plenty of people liked Unleashed, Colors and Lost World.

Just because greater than zero people like something does not mean that something is not terrible, like Unleashed, Colors, and Lost World.

Thanatos2k:

Michael Prymula:

Thanatos2k:

They sell well, but they're terrible. I guess I should have specified - people who really cared about it and also have standards.

No that's not true at all, they're not "terrible" just cause you say so. Plenty of people liked Unleashed, Colors and Lost World.

Just because greater than zero people like something does not mean that something is not terrible, like Unleashed, Colors, and Lost World.

Those games all have pretty good scores on Metacritic, so clearly a lot more people like those games then you think, so your logic really falls flat.

Michael Prymula:

Thanatos2k:

Michael Prymula:
No that's not true at all, they're not "terrible" just cause you say so. Plenty of people liked Unleashed, Colors and Lost World.

Just because greater than zero people like something does not mean that something is not terrible, like Unleashed, Colors, and Lost World.

Those games all have pretty good scores on Metacritic, so clearly a lot more people like those games then you think, so your logic really falls flat.

...Please tell me you're not using metacritic user scores as some kind of actual referendum on quality.

I mean, if you want to use metacritic then let's use metacritic, which shows terrible scores for Unleashed and Lost World.

Thanatos2k:

Michael Prymula:

Thanatos2k:

Just because greater than zero people like something does not mean that something is not terrible, like Unleashed, Colors, and Lost World.

Those games all have pretty good scores on Metacritic, so clearly a lot more people like those games then you think, so your logic really falls flat.

...Please tell me you're not using metacritic user scores as some kind of actual referendum on quality.

I mean, if you want to use metacritic then let's use metacritic, which shows terrible scores for Unleashed and Lost World.

Please tell me you're not actually that naive. Neither of those games got bad scores on Metacritic, just average ones(60 and 63 to be precise, with the PS2/Wii versions of Unleashed having higher scores then the PS3/360 versions), so their clearly far from "terrible" like you say they are.

Michael Prymula:

Thanatos2k:

Michael Prymula:
Those games all have pretty good scores on Metacritic, so clearly a lot more people like those games then you think, so your logic really falls flat.

...Please tell me you're not using metacritic user scores as some kind of actual referendum on quality.

I mean, if you want to use metacritic then let's use metacritic, which shows terrible scores for Unleashed and Lost World.

Please tell me you're not actually that naive. Neither of those games got bad scores on Metacritic, just average ones(60 and 63 to be precise, with the PS2/Wii versions of Unleashed having higher scores then the PS3/360 versions), so their clearly far from "terrible" like you say they are.

Uh, anything under a 70 on metacritic means bad. Where have you been the past ten years?

Do you need the 4 point scale explained to you?

Thanatos2k:

Michael Prymula:

Thanatos2k:

...Please tell me you're not using metacritic user scores as some kind of actual referendum on quality.

I mean, if you want to use metacritic then let's use metacritic, which shows terrible scores for Unleashed and Lost World.

Please tell me you're not actually that naive. Neither of those games got bad scores on Metacritic, just average ones(60 and 63 to be precise, with the PS2/Wii versions of Unleashed having higher scores then the PS3/360 versions), so their clearly far from "terrible" like you say they are.

Uh, anything under a 70 on metacritic means bad. Where have you been the past ten years?

Do you need the 4 point scale explained to you?

Uh no it dosen't, green means good, yellow means average, red means bad. Where have YOU been for the last ten years?

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