Why You're Wrong if You're Mad at George R. R. Martin

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The TV series doesn't follow the books directly, but that doesn't mean what happens in the show won't happen in the books to come, which is why people were angry over a certain thing Stannis does at the end of season 5. Likewise I'm a little annoyed that there have been some spoilers over the cliffhanger that the 5th book ends on. Just as I 'spoiled' the TV series for myself by reading the books, I can now potentially spoil the books for myself by watching the TV show. I know I'd be reading the books thinking 'is this event going to happen?', just as I was when I watched the show. Since I find the TV show inferior to the books in many ways, I'm not going to watch season 6 until after the book comes out.

That said, I'm not angry at GRRM for being a slow writer. Being a fan of large fantasy series means you have to be a little patient (Looking at you, Brandon Sanderson). At least he's actively writing the next book, unlike Patrick Bloody Rothfuss who took a long break to write a dull, badly written story from the point of view of a minor character in his series and then made condescending remarks towards the people who didn't like it.

I learned my lesson from the wheel of time series and am only going to be partially invested in the book series until its finished. Frankly GRRM is an old, and overweight guy and if its going to take him a 5 year span to get each of these books out I'm not going to hold my breath that he wont pass away or have age and health related complications prevent him from finishing the series.

Fractral:
...Just as I 'spoiled' the TV series for myself by reading the books, I can now potentially spoil the books for myself by watching the TV show...

It's definitely a catch-22 either way you look at it, but since reading the book didn't ruin the show for me, I doubt watching the show will ruin the books since the books are WAY more complex, as Martin spelled out in his blog post after the spoiler warning.

Meh I dont know whether I actually care. I consider the TV show to be shite at this point anyway, so I probably wont even watch this season ( I did not watch past episode 3 of Season 5) and will just wait for the book. I consider only it to be canon.

Fuck the show anyway... more cheap drama and shock and awe than Call of Duty. Same quality of writing too.

*In retrospect, I can only laugh at cinema critics like Roger Ebert claiming that video games are not an art form when their own fledgling passion is barely one either... some literature elitist or critic should have reminded him about that... such is life :( *

This news really doesn't bother me.

I didn't plan on reading the books until the TV series is over anyways. I want to judge for myself for the quality of both rather than a bunch of people telling me one way or the other. I mean, I love the LoTR books, and I think the movies are just as good.

I don't know why this has to be a competition since you can always ignore one medium if you don't like it. I would much rather GRRM write the book and finish the series when it's up to his standards and not just to make deadlines and come up with something half-baked.

Then again, this will always be an issue when there's an adaptation involved and the original material is super complex. Not everyone is gonna be pleased, so it's just something you have to deal with.

You should all be grateful. Keep this up and he'll get addicted to idol master for 8 years. Then come complain to me.

Seriously, though, the creative process can't be forced. It's not like other kinds of work. It takes a while to get things just right. Trust me, you don't want a rushed product.

Everyone's wrong if they're mad at the creator of the material they like for any other material they make or the speed in which they make it. No one should claim ownership of someone else's material.

Charcharo:

*In retrospect, I can only laugh at cinema critics like Roger Ebert claiming that video games are not an art form when their own fledgling passion is barely one either... some literature elitist or critic should have reminded him about that... such is life :( *

Most of the films in the AFI top 100 greatest films list would be crucified by the literary community. I'm not sure where people get their high horses from.

The show is too soap opera for me. I stopped watching after the first season. The books are hit and miss, but the actual prose are quite good. I'll probably put the series away until Martin is finished.

Bear with me this will get to a point.

So I watched the new Evangelion Rebuild trilogy last night. I saw Evangelion when I was a kid(I'm very old) and I loved the animation style and story overall but I could never get behind or enjoy the vagueness of all of it. I just didn't understand what was going. Otaku people will tell you that you were supposed to watch it 50 times and it was too deep for you or whatever. Rebirth was great if different and really not only boiled it down to the core elements but just straight explained things they kept purposefully vague in surprisingly hipster fashion. I can flatout say I enjoyed it and its like a great companion to the existing series, but I still had questions. I went online and the big thing I found was some famous youtuber who would explain all the differences. He didn't. He just bitched and moaned about how terrible rebuild is and yadd yadda yadda what a world what a world. He also went into this defensive rant about how any anime or cinema fan who doesnt think evangelion is wonderful is stupid. This video had 500k+ views and likes.

So why am I mentioning this? because I don't get fandom. Why do you have to be shitty about everything? why does every everything you like have to be the untouchable Holy Grail?

I have a tattoo from Evil Dead 2. When I show it to people on request and they make the "WTF face" I just shrug. If they know evil dead cool, if they don't oh well. Do you enjoy the new show? Great, you don't? Thats ok too.

So when I see an article attempting to explain away or have to wag a finger at RR martin fans or critics it just blows my mine and makes me sad. Why do you need to give a shit? Not the OP, the fans? After watching the first season I read all 5 books immediately. In a row. If Martin doesn't come out with a another book? Well that sucks. If it takes a while? Oh well. Do I like the show? Meh its ok. Good and bad good and bad. Am I writing an angry letter to Martin decrying the show and demanding a timeline for the next book? No. Am I setting fire to internet with my opinions on it? No.

Man just enjoy it. or don't. Don't be an asshole to Martin or other people about it.

I don't have any problems with the show catching up to the books at all. I'll enjoy watching season 6 of GoT and when the next book is finally released, I'll enjoy it too. It's really a totally different experience to watch the series or to be immersed in the books. Sure, the big plot twists, like the red wedding, will only impact you the first time round, but... actually, no. If I think about it, watching that on TV was still shocking even though I knew what would happen.

Somehow, it's the same story, but I think it's two different experiences. Nothing is lost by watching or reading one before the other.

Anyhow, I'm in no rush to read the next book. I think I'll wait until the final book is released and then re-read the whole thing again from the start, after some time has passed and I can allocate a significant amount of me-time for it.

WAIT WHAAAT WAS PEOPLE ACTUALLY EXPECTING HIM TO BE DONE WITH BOOK SIXTH BEFORE SEASON 6TH??
This isnt even new news to me, i guess ill catch up with the show now.

There are 3 approaches when adapting something that is still coming out that I will refer to as Japanime that followed them:
1. Dragon Ball: It's coming out, but we want to faithfully adapt it so we drag out a ton of scenes and write a lot of filler episodes. It may become tolerable when an edited down version is released by fans, and decades later you make an official edited down version.
2. Full Metal Alchemist classic: Catch up to the print, and then diverge to do something wonderfully amazing.
3. Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood: Slavishly follow the source material regardless of how terrible the result.
The correct answer is 2.

Disclaimer: I have not read/watched anything Game of Thrones, and have no interest in ever doing so.

Souplex:
There are 3 approaches when adapting something that is still coming out that I will refer to as Japanime that followed them:
1. Dragon Ball: It's coming out, but we want to faithfully adapt it so we drag out a ton of scenes and write a lot of filler episodes. It may become tolerable when an edited down version is released by fans, and decades later you make an official edited down version.
2. Full Metal Alchemist classic: Catch up to the print, and then diverge to do something wonderfully amazing.
3. Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood: Slavishly follow the source material regardless of how terrible the result.
The correct answer is 2.

Disclaimer: I have not read/watched anything Game of Thrones, and have no interest in ever doing so.

If you haven't seen the show or read the books, how would you know which method is the correct one? Different adaptations may require different approaches.

The books were an interesting read sure, but if you cut 50% of the content, the narrative wouldn't suffer for it. While the show has had a few missteps, it has presented a much more coherent story than the books.

Ylla:
WAIT WHAAAT WAS PEOPLE ACTUALLY EXPECTING HIM TO BE DONE WITH BOOK SIXTH BEFORE SEASON 6TH??
This isnt even new news to me, i guess ill catch up with the show now.

funny part.. the people who are demanding he finish the book before the start of season 6 would be the same people bitching that the novel felt rushed and unfinished

You know what happens when you keep pressuring an author to hurry up? You get an author who quits.

So shut up, you insipid morons, or you won't ever get what you're whining for. (Of course, you'd whine about that too.)

"Insipid morons" referring to the whiners, of course.

Fractral:

That said, I'm not angry at GRRM for being a slow writer. Being a fan of large fantasy series means you have to be a little patient (Looking at you, Brandon Sanderson). At least he's actively writing the next book, unlike Patrick Bloody Rothfuss who took a long break to write a dull, badly written story from the point of view of a minor character in his series and then made condescending remarks towards the people who didn't like it.

Brandon Sanderson is not a slow writer. In fact, he is arguably the antithesis of GRRM when it comes to output. 11 full length adult novels, 7 children's books, and 3 novellas over the course of a decade is a rather brisk rate of output.

GRRM however, is the guy who whined constantly and stated, I shit you not, that if George Bush was reelected he would stop writing. So in fact it is perfectly fine to be irritated at GRRM.

I'm not angry at him, since I understand that these sorts of things take a lot of time, and the pressure must be enormous, but that doesn't mean I'm not disappointing. I have a complicated relationship with the show in that I can thank it for introducing me to ASoIaF, but I feel that last season was rather meh, and I have to wonder how the next season will be.
The problem is, you can't really avoid spoilers for GoT indefinitely, since it's absolutely massive at this point and a lot of people have a strangely short period of time when dealing with spoilers. So you either spoil the books by watching the show, or you spoil the show and the books by watching neither and having some dickhead on the internet give plot points away. And yes, despite how much they're saying the show and the books will diverge, there are plenty of aspects that are applicable to both.
With that said, I have to wonder how bloated this next book will be. Perhaps it wouldn't take him so long to write if he cut out a lot of the fat.

I'm all right with this. Honestly, I chalk Game of Thrones up as one of the few examples (hell, maybe the only one I can think of) where the movie (or in this case TV series) is better than the book.

I finished all the GoT books before I ever watched the show, and although there were a few things I missed them cutting from the books (such as Strong Belwas), overall most of the stuff the show cut out seems like stuff that could have been axed from Martin's books and the overall story wouldn't have missed a beat. By around book 4 and 5, I remember increasingly asking myself "what the hell is the point of this character, and why have we devoted 100 pages to them?".

Living in europe, I have come to peace with spoilers. It's either that or never touch the internet.
It's a rare occassion to go into a story (movie/book/game,...) with out some pre-knowledge anyways. I'm just happy nobody was talking about "SAW" back in the day.

To say I'm mad at him for being behind on the books would imply I particularly like the books. However long the new book takes to come out, I'll wait the extra year for the paperback.

However this kind of bullshit from creative types does piss me off. In many ways, I get his issues. Thanks to an adaption on TV his book series that he started 15 years prior suddenly became popular, and popular enough to be demanded by more than the Sci-fi/fantasy book club. He got caught in something he was unprepared for and neve got into the mindset that he might have to. This isn't like most manga to anime adaptations where one naturally seems to progress faster than the other, having the adaptation started well before there was enough material to make many episodes, or needing time bought due to sudden delays. This was someone that still feels he's allowed to go at his own pace even when a LOT of people are counting on him to do his part, and didn't even seem to punch it up 2 years ago when this outcome was starting to look like a probability and the jokes started coming out about how slow he was.

Even then, I'm not mad at him for that. Yeah, I'm pissed that I work payroll and I have to meet deadlines (having come in to do payroll with some rather serious flus over the years) while people like that can say "when I get around to it" with impunity, but not all jobs are important and time sensitive like mine. However, when deadlines are missed, show some fucking respect to your fans to own it. Say sorry. Give your reasons if applicable and not lame. Vow to do better in the future even if lying. You don't try to try and hide your own inability to meet a deadline by hiding behind adaptations never being exact. The show already went that path when characters were adults instead of teenagers and has had several additions and omissions already, so I don't see it as valid cover.

Martin can take all the time he wants with the books, but don't treat your readership / viewership with such disrespect that they should just wait on you to get your act together. You're already lucky enough to be in a position where this is possible (unlike say, if the writers of the show suddenly couldn't get an episode out for 2 months mid-season), don't be a primadona about it by avoiding the reality that you're letting people down, or acting like people that expect things from you are unreasonable.

Redd the Sock:
However, when deadlines are missed, show some fucking respect to your fans to own it. Say sorry. Give your reasons if applicable and not lame. Vow to do better in the future even if lying. You don't try to try and hide your own inability to meet a deadline by hiding behind adaptations never being exact. The show already went that path when characters were adults instead of teenagers and has had several additions and omissions already, so I don't see it as valid cover.

Martin can take all the time he wants with the books, but don't treat your readership / viewership with such disrespect that they should just wait on you to get your act together. You're already lucky enough to be in a position where this is possible (unlike say, if the writers of the show suddenly couldn't get an episode out for 2 months mid-season), don't be a primadona about it by avoiding the reality that you're letting people down, or acting like people that expect things from you are unreasonable.

He's already apologized and explained his reasons for being behind (distractions, mainly show-related stuff).

Also, he was never really working on a deadline. He doesn't have deadlines. He had HOPED to finish by the end of the year, but that's not a deadline.

I'm just wondering how the show's producer's are going to deal with the seventh book. There was at least the hope that book six would come out in time for season six- that's obviously completely out of the question for the last book. And putting such a hot show on hiatus for half a decade is obviously out of the question, too.

Might be sort of interesting, actually. If the TV show's last season has to be made based on early outlines of Martin's plans for the seventh book- which are not neccesarily set in stone, after all- we could end up with some really drastic differences between the show and the books, with the end of the show providing a sort of snapshot of one point in the evolution of the ending we end up getting in the novels.

I'm not mad that he hasn't finished the book yet. I'm not mad that the TV series will overtake the story of the book (even though they are separate (in a way) stories).

No, I'm mad because I really doubt that when the new book is released it will be any good. That is because I really doubt that George has any idea where he's taking the story and how it will end. Every new book the story gets more convoluted with characters that add nothing and arcs that go absolutely nowhere. It's about time to wrap up some of them, but George seems very disinclined to do that. I know it's all speculation on my part, but honestly, after the last couple of books, who still has the idea that the story is actually going somewhere?

I'm not pissed at GRRM because he didn't finish book six by season six. I'm pissed at him because WE NEVER SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN TO THIS POINT.

Look, I'm no author, but how the hell can somebody so consistently misinterpret the workload ahead of him by a span of YEARS? A Feast of Crows came out in 2005, with the promise of its companion novel Dance with Dragons being released THE NEXT YEAR. It took until 2011 for Dance to arrive. Now, here we are on year 5 of waiting for the sixth book, and who knows when we'll get a seventh or even if seven books is enough to finish the story.

I mean, J.K. Rowling let the movie adaptations of her books begin when she was only halfway finished with the Harry Potter series, but despite slowing down her pace towards the end, she still published the Deathly Hallows four years before the films caught up with her.

I loved the books, and the TV show's story is not entirely identical but is pretty much the same. I would have preferred to have have read the book before the new series of the show, but if that's released in April then I guess it's going to be the other way round. In fact I probably won't bother with the book, not as much time for reading nowadays anyway.
It will be nearly impossible to ignore the show until the book is finished, it will be spoiled somewhere in about 30 seconds after it has aired, unless you live on the moon.

IOwnTheSpire:

He's already apologized and explained his reasons for being behind (distractions, mainly show-related stuff).

Also, he was never really working on a deadline. He doesn't have deadlines. He had HOPED to finish by the end of the year, but that's not a deadline.

He had deadlines that's why the first 3 books where all published in just over 4 years but because his original contract was just for 3 books when it came to continuing the very successful story the publisher had to negotiate from a weaker position.

All writers are pushed to keep deadlines under there contracts then when they have a big hit they get to dictate terms as with success they have power.

The last time George RR Martin ran over my dog, he thumbed his nose at me. The first time, he simply farted. Please don't say I'm wrong if I'm mad at him.

I always knew that television and serial novel production were incompatible with their timetables unless the latter was completed before the former even began.

I'm not enamored by the show in the same way I enjoy the books anyway. Guess I'm going to be avoiding Game of Thrones some more although it was usually just the fact I don't have a source to watch HBO anyway than anything else.

I love GoT (any media) as the next best fan but heck

FUCK those whiny fans for their 1st world problems!!!!

They think great creative work grows on trees over night, they have no clue that it is the hardest to come up with good writing.

And the insight holds true forever: a delayed release is bad for now - a bad release is bad forever!

Anyway... - did I alreay say FUCK YOU, you stupid audience?

Perhaps you shouldn't use Full Metal Alchemist as a comparison if you're trying to not make this seem like a bad thing, seeing how poor the divergent version was. Just saying.

Being 'mad' at Martin for not finishing the sixth book by the start of season six is just excessive. Recall, if you would, the foreword to A Dance With Dragons, where he explains that it's actually the second half of book four, which had gotten so long that even he had to split it.

We're not waiting for book six, we're waiting for book five.

While I don't agree with the idea that writing or any commercial art is some special thing that takes as long as it takes and can't be "forced" (you need discipline with it like any other job) I don't see the point in getting pissy at him. It sucks for people invested in the story but you didn't pay for the other books in advance and this a common problem.

The show has gone to hell and his books are taking too long, my well developed interest in the series has already dropped.

I will watch but more out of habit than of actual interest.

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