Microsoft's UWP is Games for Windows Live 2.0

Microsoft's UWP is Games for Windows Live 2.0

After making such a mess of PC gaming with GWFL, Microsoft now wants to roll out a new platform that has even more power and control?

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...Please...PLEASE...for the love of all that is holy...don't ruin the PC launch of Killer Instinct Season 3.
I've been waiting for YEARS for MS to finally allow me to play that game, don't fuck me over now!

Really!? This is just comical now. They're exactly like Mr. Burns! They would make us pay through the nose for literally everything if they could (and one day might).

Pardon my french, but this shit is retarded.

Shamus:
It had a "cloud save feature" that sometimes deleted all of your save data. Other times it would overwrite your most recent save with old saves from the cloud, thus destroying hours of progress.

To be fair, Uplay still does this to this very day. I had Uplay ruin saves in three different games before I figured out you could disable could saves.

Not that any of this excuses the travesty that was GFWL, or is the new Windows Store. I'm so glad that by the time I really decided to get back in to PC gaming, GFWL had largely ceased being a thing.

I'm not even a fan of Steam or any obstructive DRM for that matter so this is something else entirely...

Am I overly cynical when I think that even this will have its proponents and advocates?
That the silent majority just don't care as long as it works for the moment?

Games must be one of the only media in which the creators/publishers intentionally sabotage the product for future audiences.

Now I'm sad again.

Did anyone read the comments on Sweeny's article that Shamus posted?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/04/microsoft-monopolise-pc-games-development-epic-games-gears-of-war

I tried to but I could not understand any of the comments. So many of them were defending what Microsoft was doing, but I just got lost trying to read them. Do any of you have any thought on them?

sageoftruth:
Did anyone read the comments on Sweeny's article that Shamus posted?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/04/microsoft-monopolise-pc-games-development-epic-games-gears-of-war

I tried to but I could not understand any of the comments. So many of them were defending what Microsoft was doing, but I just got lost trying to read them. Do any of you have any thought on them?

There are some few benefits to UWP, but the cons far outweigh the pros really. It's as simple as that.

Honestly, I think Microsoft is doing a good thing this time.

No, really. With the amount of data collection and shady practices going on in Win10 (for instance, I hear turning off CEIP participation doesn't even work on w10 versions below Enterprise), this is a system, that is at odds with the very concept of consumer privacy, not to mention the data gathering seems to actually consume non-insignificant resources - I've heard stories of connection to MMOs improving significantly once data gathering additions were disabled. As such, far as I'm concerned, win10 (and the win10-like data gathering updates for windows 7 and 8) needs to die. The more tainted it is, the swifter and more severe its failure...

Go on, Microsoft. Add uncloseable autoplay video ads, that cannot be muted or minimized and pop up every now and again while you're using win10 home edition. Make my day, punks.

A web consortium open to the public is the only way they'll get information from PC gamers and developers at this point. Sure, it will be a lot of nonsense screamed at them for the first hour, but once that has passed and civil talk prevails, they'll actually have information that's both solid and legitimate and and they don't have to constantly guess what we want.

Top that off with a promised goal that comes with serious consequences if unmet (namely, who gets terminated from the board being left in the hands of consumers), and maybe Microsoft will finally understand what is important about communication and not trying to force things into an anti-competitive mess.

There's a list of reasons in this article which are all somewhat inaccurate, I just want to address these;

You can only get UWP apps through the Windows store, which puts Microsoft in charge of all data delivery. Microsoft will get a 30% cut of all sales. Sure, that's the same bite Valve takes from games sold on Steam. The difference is that developers can also choose to offer their software elsewhere. They can put their games on GoG, GamersGate, Itch.io, Humble Bundle, or even directly through their website. A UWP app works only within Microsoft's system.

This seems to be a common argument and one that completely misunderstands the philosophy of the UWP / Microsoft Store.

Microsoft have, or are still in the process, of developing app bridges, that allow you to simply port iOS apps to the UWP, or vice-versa. It's easy to port apps developed on the UWP into other formats and back again. There's no exclusivity agreement for games that are published via the UWP / Windows Store method.

Any game developed for the UWP can (or will) be easily be ported to, or from, any other mobile store platform, or a Win32 Code Base via the relevent bridges. You might want to read about the UWP bridges here;

https://dev.windows.com/en-us/bridges/

The philosophy of the UWP is the exact opposite of what you're suggesting here.

It's about making it easier to put your apps / games elsewhere, not harder.

2.UWP games are locked down. So no mods. Which is one of the major benefits of PC gaming.

This is not exactly true. While you can't interfere with the apps files directly, a developer can specify a folder for users to drop files into that the app will then be able to load. As long as the developer supported it, you can make any kind of mod for UWP games just like with Steam games, except for modifying EXE or DLL files.

3.UWP games don't work with capture software. You can't grab footage with Fraps, Bandicam, or streaming clients. In this day of YouTube videos, live streaming, and screenshot sharing, this is unthinkable. It's a deal breaker for anyone who writes about games for a living, which makes me wonder how much Microsoft thought this through.

This is also slightly misleading. Putting aside the fact that Windows 10 comes with DVR capability built in, NVIDIA's Shadowplay will record UWP apps just fine, too. While it's true some screen recording software won't work, it's not fair to say no software will work. Most of it can work out of the box, or be configured to work just fine.

I'm not defending UWP as a gaming platform, I don't think it's ready either, but these three points I felt I had to address.

So I'm not the only person that's salty over being unable to play FUEL?

Man I loved that game when I played it on PS3, thought it would be so much better in PC but it won't even start thanks to GFWL, and now they're going to do the same fucking thing Quantum Break and Killer Instinct, fuck Microsoft I just want to be able to play games.

The issue is that Microsoft is trying to emulate the horrendous Apple AppStore environment on a platform that has historically always offered freedom. At least Apple platforms were never very open, the Apple consumer got something that is right along the lines of what they have always gotten, and it didn't hinder the consumer in any substantial way. But you can't take an open platform, offer it roadblocks, call it features and expect people to lap it up like good little dogs.

Microsoft really just needs to get out of gaming, they are just completely disconnected from the culture they are constantly trying to put themselves in. It's like with XBox One and the push for the living room and your cable subscription. They did it at a time when the market was moving en masse to another way of doing things. They just don't understand markets at all except for Enterprise, but even then the push for one platform that fits all is a complete failure. Enterprise has different needs that MS has always historically understood, but with W10, they just fail with Enterprise. There is no reason for any company to get off of Windows 7 because MS fucks up their own integration with many W8 and W10 "features".

Diablo1099:
...Please...PLEASE...for the love of all that is holy...don't ruin the PC launch of Killer Instinct Season 3.
I've been waiting for YEARS for MS to finally allow me to play that game, don't fuck me over now!

I think it's pretty safe to assume that every Microsoft controlled IP releasing on PC in the next three years will be a Win 10 UWP exclusive.

I've arrived at the conclusion that games released as Windows Store exclusives are the same as GFWL exclusives, which is to say they are effectively not being released on PC at all.

Given the size and competitiveness of the PC market and the quality (relative lack thereof) of Microsoft's IP nobody will miss much by ignoring the Windows store's releases entirely. My only fear is that we'll get into a GFWL like situation again, where Microsoft gets it's cheque book out and starts buying exclusives from other publishers. After the damage GFWL did to various IPs hopefuly they'll be more wary of it this time round.

fix-the-spade:

Diablo1099:
...Please...PLEASE...for the love of all that is holy...don't ruin the PC launch of Killer Instinct Season 3.
I've been waiting for YEARS for MS to finally allow me to play that game, don't fuck me over now!

I think it's pretty safe to assume that every Microsoft controlled IP releasing on PC in the next three years will be a Win 10 UWP exclusive.

I've arrived at the conclusion that games released as Windows Store exclusives are the same as GFWL exclusives, which is to say they are effectively not being released on PC at all.

Given the size and competitiveness of the PC market and the quality (relative lack thereof) of Microsoft's IP nobody will miss much by ignoring the Windows store's releases entirely. My only fear is that we'll get into a GFWL like situation again, where Microsoft gets it's cheque book out and starts buying exclusives from other publishers. After the damage GFWL did to various IPs hopefuly they'll be more wary of it this time round.

Hopefully there's a lot of salty old-dog developers out there that remember friends and competitors inking exclusivity with the late GFWL-era where the money for exclusivity wasn't enough to cover the awful sales for well-reviewed games in addition to nobody playing their game (the insult added to injury).

I honestly don't believe MS has the clout and will in gaming right now to pull off something that can actually hurt the environment as a whole, and this will just be one forgotten aspect of their recent flailings for relevance. Something good may come out of it, actually. Cross-platform console gaming may be real. I think the most likely outcome is that MS shoots themselves in the foot while screaming to anyone who will listen to check out these neat bullet holes.

Nazulu:
Really!? This is just comical now. They're exactly like Mr. Burns! They would make us pay through the nose for literally everything if they could (and one day might).

Yes, that's how for-profit businesses work. Or did you think businesses willingly forgo potential revenue out of generosity? Keep in mind I'm not defending UWP, but Microsoft's issue is clumsiness, not evil.[/quote]

FileTrekker:
Snip

Thanks for injecting a little reality and nuance into the Microsoft-hate circle-jerk.

Olas:
Yes, that's how for-profit businesses work. Or did you think businesses willingly forgo potential revenue out of generosity? Keep in mind I'm not defending UWP, but Microsoft's issue is clumsiness, not evil.

I've never understood why stupid and evil are usually considered to be mutually exclusive, in my experience many situations are both. The argument 'well of course they're doing it to make money' doesn't sound all that different from 'well of course that bear is mauling your child, it's just eating like it's supposed to' to me.

Knowing how restrictive it is, why would developers use the platform? Even if Microsoft offers oodles of cash, in the short term, the Devs have to know it will cost them more money in the long term.

008Zulu:
Knowing how restrictive it is, why would developers use the platform? Even if Microsoft offers oodles of cash, in the short term, the Devs have to know it will cost them more money in the long term.

I think they'll do something insidious, like not allowing to create games for the XBox One if they don't make them for Windows 10 with UWP. I mean, there already have been contracts that forbid developers of making the PC ports to look and run better than the console versions. So it's not so far fetched.

CaitSeith:
I think they'll do something insidious, like not allowing to create games for the XBox One if they don't make them for Windows 10 with UWP.

That does sound like something Microsoft would do, I would imagine that Devs would abandon the Xbone platform if that's the case.

I'd like to note that those "discount cards" are mostly just adjusting back to retail price after the retailer marks them up to compensate, so what we're really being given is a lie in exchange for compliance. Basically the same thing as "value added" "publisher marketplaces" that are really just copy protection and price protection (in uplay, in addition to locking off rewards for achievements by forcing you to connect to the server first, also had the added "benefit" of letting you make customizable avatars to cover for their paper thin PR and then asks you to "post your thoughts" on their games that also just happens to be "legal for republication by Ubisoft").

Unfortunately, the lie is the norm, so any attempt at the truth would end up as badly as JC Penney.

So microsoft are a bunch of evil scumfucks that are not to be trusted.
What else is new?

I'm kind of surprised how some people treat UWP like it's this new thing that has never been done before.
People are starting to forget GFWL which is kind of impressive for how much of a wide-spread atrocity it was.

I've hear vague rumblings about Windows 10 features being available to UWPs but not EXEs, but what exactly said features might actually be remains vague. Given Microsoft's continued willingness to use DirectX as a flogging device, though, it can't help but be slightly troubling.

All that aside, though... I don't want this. If I make a game, I want it to be easily accessible to as many people as possible, including people who are using older operating systems. If I play a game, I want it to be the version the developers intended, not the one that was hobbled by the various restrictions currently in effect for a UWP. In neither case do I want to pay Microsoft a cut, because they have been and continue to be a hindrance to the PC gaming marketplace and they shouldn't be rewarded for that, ever.

Olas:

Nazulu:
Really!? This is just comical now. They're exactly like Mr. Burns! They would make us pay through the nose for literally everything if they could (and one day might).

Yes, that's how for-profit businesses work. Or did you think businesses willingly forgo potential revenue out of generosity? Keep in mind I'm not defending UWP, but Microsoft's issue is clumsiness, not evil.

No, you are defending UWP. That's the ultimate cop-out defense I keep hearing for shitty business practices 101. And no one cares for it of course. They could easily hire people and do research into what would be a good idea, but they never fucking do! Most likely the opposite to see what they can 'potentially' get away with.

Also, how can you prove it's clumsiness!? They just tried something similar with the Xbone, and even after the massive backlash, well Look At It! This is so similar! They're power hungry.

008Zulu:

CaitSeith:
I think they'll do something insidious, like not allowing to create games for the XBox One if they don't make them for Windows 10 with UWP.

That does sound like something Microsoft would do, I would imagine that Devs would abandon the Xbone platform if that's the case.

I imagine that would depend on how much the publishers crave for the sales from XBox One games. With all the pre-ordering and microtransactions they put in the games, because "otherwise they can't afford to make games", cutting themselves out of a main console audience sounds like something they wouldn't do.

FileTrekker:
...except for modifying EXE or DLL files.

Congrats, you just killed all aftermarket graphics mods that use injectors/DLL replacers, and also every Bethesda game since pretty much all the significant mods for those rely on their various EXE-modifying Script Extenders.

And of course, the real target of these restrictions(software crackers and file sharers) will giggle into their hands and figure a way around it, once again proving that people who employ restrictive DRM to "combat piracy" are either grotesquely incompetent/stupid, or liars using the piracy boogieman to cloak their anti-consumer behaviour.

UWP is a shitshow, and it's genuinely depressing that folk are willing to defend it.

Ark of the Covetor:

FileTrekker:
...except for modifying EXE or DLL files.

Congrats, you just killed all aftermarket graphics mods that use injectors/DLL replacers, and also every Bethesda game since pretty much all the significant mods for those rely on their various EXE-modifying Script Extenders.

And of course, the real target of these restrictions(software crackers and file sharers) will giggle into their hands and figure a way around it, once again proving that people who employ restrictive DRM to "combat piracy" are either grotesquely incompetent/stupid, or liars using the piracy boogieman to cloak their anti-consumer behaviour.

UWP is a shitshow, and it's genuinely depressing that folk are willing to defend it.

That's a pretty ill informed opinion, if you don't mind my saying so.

I wasn't defending it as a platform. As an app platform, I think it's fine, as a AAA gaming platform, not so much, I said so in my post, however;

The crux of your argument ('kill' something) - implies that games either can't or won't be released on Steam before or at the same time as the UWP version. Yes, the UWP version won't support these kinds of mods. That's fine; just buy the Steam version instead.

There will never be a case where a game is on the UWP but not Steam, low level mobile-type games aside (maybe...) - This is never going to be the case, I can guarantee you that.

The same fuss happened when Windows 8 came out, the same fuss is happening now, there's no way UWP will gain traction of Steam. The UWP versions of apps are aimed at casual users, those who will likely never even consider modding. The Steam versions of games are never going to go away, and there's no exclusivity to the UWP like I said.

I honestly can't understand why people are even caring about UWP, never mind getting so upset about it. It's literally never going to affect you. The serious gamer market is not what they care about here, at all.

FileTrekker:

The crux of your argument ('kill' something) - implies that games either can't or won't be released on Steam before or at the same time as the UWP version. Yes, the UWP version won't support these kinds of mods. That's fine; just buy the Steam version instead.

There will never be a case where a game is on the UWP but not Steam, low level mobile-type games aside (maybe...) - This is never going to be the case, I can guarantee you that.

If it ends up that my only choices are to get a game with the DRM of UWP, or the DRM of Steam, then I think I'll just go buy a deck of cards.

And the guarantees of anonymous internet forum posters aren't worth the bits that make up their post.

 

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