High-Powered Hardware Isn't Enough to Make Project Scorpio Succeed

High-Powered Hardware Isn't Enough to Make Project Scorpio Succeed

Microsoft needs more than hardware to make Project Scorpio a success - it needs more good games.

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Amen.

At the end of the day, if I really wanted to play any Xbox exclusive, I'd just go the PC route. But if I want to play Horizon: Zero Dawn or The Last of Us, I need a Sony console. There's literally no reason to get an Xbox unless you're really attached to your Gamertag, friends list, and achievements.

I would argue that even Forza is no longer king of the hill.

Sim racers almost universally pay a subscription to iRacing now. It's the only one where there is a realistic chance of running into actual racing drivers in the online, although it's almost too like reality at times.

The Forza games were great, but I haven't looked at them in years now.

I was actually really happy when Microsoft was finally reversing a lot of their early decisions since it making their console seem unappealing. I thought that they might actually seem like a good rival to Sony now considering how Sony removed their heads from their ass and got all those exclusives and awesome games.

Now? Not so much.

I don't know why they are doing the Play Anywhere since it kind of defeats the purpose of owning an Xbox and I would much rather get a PC rig if that's what they're going to do. They lost a lot of their interesting titles, and Scalebound looked super fun.

I honestly don't know what they are doing, and I don't know why they are pushing the specs thing so hard since the only that matters right for them are the games. Which right now they are really lacking and it's really pathetic.

I know they've said that they're gonna show a lot during E3, but they've said that last year too and it wasn't that great of a showing. So, we'll see.

Exclusives for consoles are just an admission that your company's engineers are pathetic company dead-weight and can not fight with hardware and OS.

As it is, the Xbone Scorpios is a as good as a 200 dollar GPU + 60 dollar CPU. It is still weak. It has better modding and backwards compatibility though, so if some monolingual american console user forced me to choose a conslow at gunpoint, it would be the Xbone Scorpio :P

Console sales are driven by Fifa, Madden, CoD, the occasional GTA, etc. People want a box to play those on and PS4 was the cheaper box this generation, much like 360 the previous one.
One glance at the top 10 best seller charts shows just how meaningless games like Bloodborne are in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately, the more powerful console in a two horse race is irrelevant. Since the majority of games are developed cross-platform, they're going to be made for the lower spec of the two. They aren't going to change models or textures between platforms. Hell, they barely optimise much beyond ensuring they work. Any grunt under the hood of Scorpio above and beyond the PS4 Pro may as well not be there for the difference it will make (or won't, in this case).

The 4K Blu Ray drive is the one feature that might be a clincher in making a sale, and then it won't be for the gaming but for the movie playback to the tiny, tiny number of people who are going the 4K route.

I just put an RX 480 card in my computer and its really nice but it cost as much as a black Friday Xbox 1S bundle. I don't think the threat of people choosing only one or the other is going to be that decisive. Plenty of people are going to want a Scorpio for a premium experience and maybe also a decent gaming rig that has its uses but unless you are ready to spend a fortune is not going to be in the same league as the Scorpio. I can't wait to see the thing for real.

Saltyk:
Amen.

At the end of the day, if I really wanted to play any Xbox exclusive, I'd just go the PC route. But if I want to play Horizon: Zero Dawn or The Last of Us, I need a Sony console. There's literally no reason to get an Xbox unless you're really attached to your Gamertag, friends list, and achievements.

Even then, Windows 10 has native Xbox integration with Windows Store apps, yes?

Microsoft have their own game studio, who have been shown to produce some truly excellent games. Why they haven't been fully tapped to produce content is confusing to me.

008Zulu:
Microsoft have their own game studio, who have been shown to produce some truly excellent games. Why they haven't been fully tapped to produce content is confusing to me.

Bureaucracy, apparently

The original Xbox was more powerful than the PS2. It didn't matter without proper exclusives.

Gorfias:
I just put an RX 480 card in my computer and its really nice but it cost as much as a black Friday Xbox 1S bundle. I don't think the threat of people choosing only one or the other is going to be that decisive. Plenty of people are going to want a Scorpio for a premium experience and maybe also a decent gaming rig that has its uses but unless you are ready to spend a fortune is not going to be in the same league as the Scorpio. I can't wait to see the thing for real.

Console gaming costs a LOT more than PC gaming.

The Xbox One S is around 25% weaker than an RX 460 BTW. The 480 literally curbstomps it.

Adam Jensen:
The original Xbox was more powerful than the PS2. It didn't matter without proper exclusives.

There was a lot more to it than that. I think the PS2 had been out for a year before the Xbox. It was BC with PS1 so you had a built in base of users. Xbox was a far superior piece of hardware but could not catch up with the momentum of the PS2. Not even close.

Charcharo:

Console gaming costs a LOT more than PC gaming.

Games for PC CAN be a lot cheaper. But if you want a new AAA title, It's likely going to cost 60 bucks either way. And I'm starting to see some pretty cheap dl and even free games on the PS4 and XB1. So it comes down to the hardware...

The Xbox One S is around 25% weaker than an RX 460 BTW. The 480 literally curbstomps it.

But it doesn't have the overhead of a full blow PC. What ends up happening is that a console can provide a better experience with less hardware.

I hear that in performance, the Scorpio is out performing a $400 GTX 1070. Example:

Gorfias:

Adam Jensen:
The original Xbox was more powerful than the PS2. It didn't matter without proper exclusives.

There was a lot more to it than that. I think the PS2 had been out for a year before the Xbox. It was BC with PS1 so you had a built in base of users. Xbox was a far superior piece of hardware but could not catch up with the momentum of the PS2. Not even close.

Charcharo:

Console gaming costs a LOT more than PC gaming.

Games for PC CAN be a lot cheaper. But if you want a new AAA title, It's likely going to cost 60 bucks either way. And I'm starting to see some pretty cheap dl and even free games on the PS4 and XB1. So it comes down to the hardware...

The Xbox One S is around 25% weaker than an RX 460 BTW. The 480 literally curbstomps it.

But it doesn't have the overhead of a full blow PC. What ends up happening is that a console can provide a better experience with less hardware.

I hear that in performance, the Scorpio is out performing a $400 GTX 1070. Example:

I live in Eastern Europe. People here make 400 euro a month. Taxes are around 17%. Everything that is electronic has a 20% tax on top.

PC Gaming is cheaper. Full stop. Console gaming looks cheaper to the Rich Americans, but they dont do the math long term either :P

Console optimization is overestimated. Remember, PC has low level APIs too. In the Xbox 360 and PS3 era, the console optimization accounted for 25% extra performance. These days? More like 5-10% at the most for a console.

Here is some info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDmC04GHhRE

And the Potato Masher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH6FCgqQB_s&index=84&list=PLQbCPWtOQp0FoY_-7GwWSErWP2j7--Hh5

Whoever told you the Scorpios is as powerful as a GTX 1070 lied to you. The Fury X has 8.6 Teraflops. Why does it lose to the 980 Ti and GTX 1070?
*It isnt the VRAM BTW.

You wanna know what's really frustrating... ?

The Microsoft games division is sitting on a GOLD MINE of IPs. Freelancer, Halo, Fable, Perfect Dark, Banjo Kazooie, MINECRAFT for fucks sake!

And here they are wondering how they'll ever get ahead of big ol' Sony and Nintendo. It's just a fucking disgrace. Someone or some people need to be replaced badly. Especially after the shitshow that was Halo 5. They could be making so much money right now but no... I guess that makes too much sense.

Charcharo:

PC Gaming is cheaper. Full stop. Console gaming looks cheaper to the Rich Americans, but they dont do the math long term either :P

Console optimization is overestimated. Remember, PC has low level APIs too. In the Xbox 360 and PS3 era, the console optimization accounted for 25% extra performance. These days? More like 5-10% at the most for a console.

Here is some info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDmC04GHhRE

And the Potato Masher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH6FCgqQB_s&index=84&list=PLQbCPWtOQp0FoY_-7GwWSErWP2j7--Hh5

Whoever told you the Scorpios is as powerful as a GTX 1070 lied to you. The Fury X has 8.6 Teraflops. Why does it lose to the 980 Ti and GTX 1070?
*It isnt the VRAM BTW.

I'll have to check your links. Thanks for sharing.

I concede: I am torn. If I have a single Xbox controller receiver on a PC, would I be able to use multiple controllers to play multiplayer games? I have NBA 2016 on PC for instance.

If the Scorpio is over the $500 price point, I really could build something that would instantly have all my GOG, Steam, Origin and Uplay games on it, ready for download. PCs are flexible.

Reviewing.

EDIT: Potato Masher is fun. I'll look for the specs used. Including a Windows 10 64 Bit Pro edition could take this build to over $600 though. I use newegg.com for my shopping.

Gorfias:

Charcharo:

PC Gaming is cheaper. Full stop. Console gaming looks cheaper to the Rich Americans, but they dont do the math long term either :P

Console optimization is overestimated. Remember, PC has low level APIs too. In the Xbox 360 and PS3 era, the console optimization accounted for 25% extra performance. These days? More like 5-10% at the most for a console.

Here is some info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDmC04GHhRE

And the Potato Masher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH6FCgqQB_s&index=84&list=PLQbCPWtOQp0FoY_-7GwWSErWP2j7--Hh5

Whoever told you the Scorpios is as powerful as a GTX 1070 lied to you. The Fury X has 8.6 Teraflops. Why does it lose to the 980 Ti and GTX 1070?
*It isnt the VRAM BTW.

I'll have to check your links. Thanks for sharing.

I concede: I am torn. If I have a single Xbox controller receiver on a PC, would I be able to use multiple controllers to play multiplayer games? I have NBA 2016 on PC for instance.

If the Scorpio is over the $500 price point, I really could build something that would instantly have all my GOG, Steam, Origin and Uplay games on it, ready for download. PCs are flexible.

Reviewing.

EDIT: Potato Masher is fun. I'll look for the specs used. Including a Windows 10 64 Bit Pro edition could take this build to over $600 though. I use newegg.com for my shopping.

I think you can play using multiple controllers. But it depends on the game and/or the community support for sure. So check first or ask people that know. I don't know much about NBA as I have never played it so I can not help you there specifically.

A PC has mods that rival AAA games (Horizon:Zero Dawn is cute compared to Call of Chernobyl), old games, emulation... it really is not fair. That and cheaper long term price is why us Bulgarians for example are mostly PC Gamers. And we make 400 euro a month, a PS4 is that much lol (before the 16-18% taxes).

As for the Masher... remember that it is using an Nvidia GPU. Those age very badly as Nvidia has inferior support compared to AMD. If he had used a second hand AMD 7950 for example, it would be a slaughter. An absolute slaughter. 65% above a PS4 even in the best optimized PS4 games.
Windows 10 was free for my Windows 7 machine :P

Charcharo:

Gorfias:

Charcharo:

PC Gaming is cheaper. Full stop. Console gaming looks cheaper to the Rich Americans, but they dont do the math long term either :P

Console optimization is overestimated. Remember, PC has low level APIs too. In the Xbox 360 and PS3 era, the console optimization accounted for 25% extra performance. These days? More like 5-10% at the most for a console.

Here is some info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDmC04GHhRE

And the Potato Masher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH6FCgqQB_s&index=84&list=PLQbCPWtOQp0FoY_-7GwWSErWP2j7--Hh5

Whoever told you the Scorpios is as powerful as a GTX 1070 lied to you. The Fury X has 8.6 Teraflops. Why does it lose to the 980 Ti and GTX 1070?
*It isnt the VRAM BTW.

I'll have to check your links. Thanks for sharing.

I concede: I am torn. If I have a single Xbox controller receiver on a PC, would I be able to use multiple controllers to play multiplayer games? I have NBA 2016 on PC for instance.

If the Scorpio is over the $500 price point, I really could build something that would instantly have all my GOG, Steam, Origin and Uplay games on it, ready for download. PCs are flexible.

Reviewing.

EDIT: Potato Masher is fun. I'll look for the specs used. Including a Windows 10 64 Bit Pro edition could take this build to over $600 though. I use newegg.com for my shopping.

I think you can play using multiple controllers. But it depends on the game and/or the community support for sure. So check first or ask people that know. I don't know much about NBA as I have never played it so I can not help you there specifically.

A PC has mods that rival AAA games (Horizon:Zero Dawn is cute compared to Call of Chernobyl), old games, emulation... it really is not fair. That and cheaper long term price is why us Bulgarians for example are mostly PC Gamers. And we make 400 euro a month, a PS4 is that much lol (before the 16-18% taxes).

As for the Masher... remember that it is using an Nvidia GPU. Those age very badly as Nvidia has inferior support compared to AMD. If he had used a second hand AMD 7950 for example, it would be a slaughter. An absolute slaughter. 65% above a PS4 even in the best optimized PS4 games.
Windows 10 was free for my Windows 7 machine :P

What IS IT with you PC gamers that every, single, shit-fucking thread about consoles, you guys have to come in and evangelize to everyone about the PC. Look, we can do the math. We already know the merits of the PC, and, yet, we choose to game on a console for reasons outside of basic math/number crunching that we feel are more important for our own preferences and enjoyment. Why can't you guys just never let people play on WHATEVER hardware that they choose to play on without having to hear the whole "Get a PC" rant/mantra? Seriously, I want to know, cause you guys do it in EVERY, SINGLE THREAD on EVERY, SINGLE FORUM on EVERY, SINGLE SITE that brings up consoles.

We get it. You guys love to game on the PC and have a preference for gaming on the PC. Well, some of us love gaming on the console and have a preference for gaming on the console. That is a personal choice that we make. It doesn't have to fit in your calculus; it's a personal choice we make for our own reasons. Hell, a lot of people do both with equal measures of enjoyment (and those are generally the ONLY ones who game on a PC that don't seem to feel this need to shout the "Get a PC" mantra at every opportunity)!

For shits-sake, the whole PC Master race just needs to be launched to a planet where they can just be by themselves and leave the rest of us to just play and enjoy games in peace on whatever hardware we choose. The whole meme has become more than a little annoying because it is used too much as a beat-stick of self-absorbed superiority against anyone not them.

geizr:

Charcharo:

Gorfias:

I'll have to check your links. Thanks for sharing.

I concede: I am torn. If I have a single Xbox controller receiver on a PC, would I be able to use multiple controllers to play multiplayer games? I have NBA 2016 on PC for instance.

If the Scorpio is over the $500 price point, I really could build something that would instantly have all my GOG, Steam, Origin and Uplay games on it, ready for download. PCs are flexible.

Reviewing.

EDIT: Potato Masher is fun. I'll look for the specs used. Including a Windows 10 64 Bit Pro edition could take this build to over $600 though. I use newegg.com for my shopping.

I think you can play using multiple controllers. But it depends on the game and/or the community support for sure. So check first or ask people that know. I don't know much about NBA as I have never played it so I can not help you there specifically.

A PC has mods that rival AAA games (Horizon:Zero Dawn is cute compared to Call of Chernobyl), old games, emulation... it really is not fair. That and cheaper long term price is why us Bulgarians for example are mostly PC Gamers. And we make 400 euro a month, a PS4 is that much lol (before the 16-18% taxes).

As for the Masher... remember that it is using an Nvidia GPU. Those age very badly as Nvidia has inferior support compared to AMD. If he had used a second hand AMD 7950 for example, it would be a slaughter. An absolute slaughter. 65% above a PS4 even in the best optimized PS4 games.
Windows 10 was free for my Windows 7 machine :P

What IS IT with you PC gamers that every, single, shit-fucking thread about consoles, you guys have to come in and evangelize to everyone about the PC. Look, we can do the math. We already know the merits of the PC, and, yet, we choose to game on a console for reasons outside of basic math/number crunching that we feel are more important for our own preferences and enjoyment. Why can't you guys just never let people play on WHATEVER hardware that they choose to play on without having to hear the whole "Get a PC" rant/mantra? Seriously, I want to know, cause you guys do it in EVERY, SINGLE THREAD on EVERY, SINGLE FORUM on EVERY, SINGLE SITE that brings up consoles.

We get it. You guys love to game on the PC and have a preference for gaming on the PC. Well, some of us love gaming on the console and have a preference for gaming on the console. That is a personal choice that we make. It doesn't have to fit in your calculus; it's a personal choice we make for our own reasons. Hell, a lot of people do both with equal measures of enjoyment (and those are generally the ONLY ones who game on a PC that don't seem to feel this need to shout the "Get a PC" mantra at every opportunity)!

For shits-sake, the whole PC Master race just needs to be launched to a planet where they can just be by themselves and leave the rest of us to just play and enjoy games in peace on whatever hardware we choose. The whole meme has become more than a little annoying because it is used too much as a beat-stick of self-absorbed superiority against anyone not them.

You can take it as either me defending engineering and science (I am studying Industrial Engineering and want to work on chip design and manufacturing) in simple terms for the masses.

Or you can take it as me countering stinking rich American Console imperialism. Take your pick really :P

*Also technically, most console gamers and Americans in general do not know about PC's strengths in cheapness and Emulation/Modding/Backwards compatibility. All they know is power, which is almost completely irrelevant. Even if a console was more powerful than the best PC it would still lose those, much more important points.

Charcharo:

You can take it as either me defending engineering and science (I am studying Industrial Engineering and want to work on chip design and manufacturing) in simple terms for the masses.

Or you can take it as me countering stinking rich American Console imperialism. Take your pick really :P

*Also technically, most console gamers and Americans in general do not know about PC's strengths in cheapness and Emulation/Modding/Backwards compatibility. All they know is power, which is almost completely irrelevant. Even if a console was more powerful than the best PC it would still lose those, much more important points.

Wow! Such condescending arrogance and blatant bigotry!

First, engineering takes much more into consideration than just raw number pushing power when it comes to product development. Second, most consoles are developed and sold by Japanese companies, not American companies. Third, what are PCs going to emulate other than console and mobile devices, and from what I can tell, that emulation can be hit or miss depending on the game being played. If you're just going to play a console/mobile game, why not play on the actual platform for which the game was built, tested, optimized, and guaranteed to function? Fourth, modding has come to at least the Xbox console; so, PCs are no longer the sole bastion of that ability. Fifth, backwards compatibility is not as big a factor to a larger percentage of gamers. Most play the game until they tire of it, sell it, and then move on to the next game. Also, even the PC has a limit to its backwards compatibility as APIs, operating systems, and hardware behavior/algorithms change over time.

Even further, there is a lot of merit to not having to fuck around with drivers and tweak settings when trying to play a game. There is a lot to be said for the simple process of turn on console, select game, hit start button, play game. Ease of use is something PCs have never had compared to consoles, and even as complex as consoles have gotten over the years, they still win in that category. That is something that does mean a lot to a lot of people (by the, ease of use is exactly a design goal in engineering; you may want to learn that in your studies).

Even more so, do NOT discount the benefit of efficient, customized hardware and algorithm designs over brute-force for handling a well-defined task. As an engineer, you should know and understand that better than anyone.

The choice of gaming on a PC or gaming on a console is not always about just pure numbers. There are many other subjective factors that are no less important that go into the choice, and the value of those factors can only be evaluated by the individual making the choice for himself (not by elitist jerks trying rationalize their own self-importance). At the end of the day, the only important question is not which one is technically superior. The only important question is which particular mode of gaming gives a particular individual the greatest level of enjoyment for the money and effort they expand. For some it is PC gaming. For others, it is console gaming.

Your opinion demonstrates an unconscionable conceit to assume that PC gaming is the only possible gaming that makes any sense for anyone; you presume to decide for everyone else what is the best option for them without having any real understanding of the person's preferences or constraints. Additionally, it shows a level of uninformed bigotry that merely assumes console gamers are ignorant of the merits of PC (got news for you, buddy, many of us deal with PCs on a regular basis), and then you further compound that ignorant bigotry with a presumption that most American gamers are ignorant of the merits of the PCs, when, in truth, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Originally, I was not going to even bother to respond to this level of unfounded conceit, but I felt it was better to say something against this kind of crap that has done nothing aside from turning the gaming community into a needless warzone of conceited, arrogant jerks who are just trying to rationalize their own self-importance.

geizr:

Charcharo:

You can take it as either me defending engineering and science (I am studying Industrial Engineering and want to work on chip design and manufacturing) in simple terms for the masses.

Or you can take it as me countering stinking rich American Console imperialism. Take your pick really :P

*Also technically, most console gamers and Americans in general do not know about PC's strengths in cheapness and Emulation/Modding/Backwards compatibility. All they know is power, which is almost completely irrelevant. Even if a console was more powerful than the best PC it would still lose those, much more important points.

Wow! Such condescending arrogance and blatant bigotry!

First, engineering takes much more into consideration than just raw number pushing power when it comes to product development. Second, most consoles are developed and sold by Japanese companies, not American companies. Third, what are PCs going to emulate other than console and mobile devices, and from what I can tell, that emulation can be hit or miss depending on the game being played. If you're just going to play a console/mobile game, why not play on the actual platform for which the game was built, tested, optimized, and guaranteed to function? Fourth, modding has come to at least the Xbox console; so, PCs are no longer the sole bastion of that ability. Fifth, backwards compatibility is not as big a factor to a larger percentage of gamers. Most play the game until they tire of it, sell it, and then move on to the next game. Also, even the PC has a limit to its backwards compatibility as APIs, operating systems, and hardware behavior/algorithms change over time.

Even further, there is a lot of merit to not having to fuck around with drivers and tweak settings when trying to play a game. There is a lot to be said for the simple process of turn on console, select game, hit start button, play game. Ease of use is something PCs have never had compared to consoles, and even as complex as consoles have gotten over the years, they still win in that category. That is something that does mean a lot to a lot of people (by the, ease of use is exactly a design goal in engineering; you may want to learn that in your studies).

Even more so, do NOT discount the benefit of efficient, customized hardware and algorithm designs over brute-force for handling a well-defined task. As an engineer, you should know and understand that better than anyone.

The choice of gaming on a PC or gaming on a console is not always about just pure numbers. There are many other subjective factors that are no less important that go into the choice, and the value of those factors can only be evaluated by the individual making the choice for himself (not by elitist jerks trying rationalize their own self-importance). At the end of the day, the only important question is not which one is technically superior. The only important question is which particular mode of gaming gives a particular individual the greatest level of enjoyment for the money and effort they expand. For some it is PC gaming. For others, it is console gaming.

Your opinion demonstrates an unconscionable conceit to assume that PC gaming is the only possible gaming that makes any sense for anyone; you presume to decide for everyone else what is the best option for them without having any real understanding of the person's preferences or constraints. Additionally, it shows a level of uninformed bigotry that merely assumes console gamers are ignorant of the merits of PC (got news for you, buddy, many of us deal with PCs on a regular basis), and then you further compound that ignorant bigotry with a presumption that most American gamers are ignorant of the merits of the PCs, when, in truth, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Originally, I was not going to even bother to respond to this level of unfounded conceit, but I felt it was better to say something against this kind of crap that has done nothing aside from turning the gaming community into a needless warzone of conceited, arrogant jerks who are just trying to rationalize their own self-importance.

Well what goes around comes around. Arrogance has to be responded with even more arrogance. I know it sucks but if it doesnt happen no one ever takes you seriously.

1. Yes, engineering also takes into account die size, average voltage of these chips, cost of production and even more importantly - power consumption.

2. AMD is an American company. What, you think Sony and Nintendo can develop their own 14nm Finfet GPUs and CPUs? They don't have the ability mate.

PS4, Xbox One, Xbox Scorpio, PS 4 Pro - are all AMD engineered. Microsoft requested some things custom made on both Xboxes, but it was still AMD's (technically multi-cultural) engineers who did it.

Nintendo Switch - mostly Nvidia engineered. Nintendo has some input but I hope you understand that the difference in capability between Sony and Nintendo and even MS compared to AMD, Intel and Nvidia when it comes down to chip design and manufacturing... is completely impossible to breach. It is gigantic, in other words.

3. Because the actual platform is long gone, very hard to find, so old it is breaking apart, without parts being made for it or unavailable. That is why. Technology dies. That is a fact. I dont want the conslow games to exist only in musems for future generations so emulation (which is BTW often superior to the original console) is the ONLY way we can protect our art form in the coming centuries.

4. Modding on Xbone is limited. Seriously, compare Fallout 4's modding to something like Underhell, Call of Chernobyl or Lost Alpha. It is like comparing a school game project to a AAA game.

5. A large percentage of gamers do not care for games as an art form and are stupid. I care for backwards compatibility a lot.
PC's modding and emulation capability means that almost no SP game is lost. Even when there is an incompatibility (for example GCN with very old hacked Oblivion Lost shaders) it can be fixed.

6. Who has to mess with drivers and settings these days? Not only is that a total of 2 minutes (which you save with the MUCH faster loading times on PC) but the game does it for you. AMD and Nvidia's software do it for you. There is almost nothing a PC gamer needs to do. Ever.
It is a simple install - press exe - play. Game's select their own settings automatically. I despise that, but it seems most Muricans love it so it exists.

Ease of use is already masted. So close to consoles, if it matters the problem is in the user. The only times it matters is when the game is super old... but that is a scenario consoles dont have anyway so complaining is hypocrisy.

7. I do not believe in Nostalgia. For all my love of old games, I feel no nostalgia for them or their consoles. The only use case for consoles is if someone wants to play 1-2 games (so PC can not become much cheaper over time) and that ... is it. Nothing more. I had a Terminator console when I was a child, but I can not feel this "Subjective, it isnt the numbers maan!" thing you are talking about. Math disagrees with it existing to boot.

8. I am an Eastern European gamer. Your consoles havent made it easier or cheaper to be a gamer here, you know. And BTW, you so far are ignorant on PC AND console gaming from what you have said so far.

I expected nothing else mate. I hope you respond nicely, if arrogant (like I did) and have a nice day. But so far it is literally same thing it has always been...

Charcharo:

Well what goes around comes around. Arrogance has to be responded with even more arrogance. I know it sucks but if it doesnt happen no one ever takes you seriously.

You launch the first salvo of conceit with your first post in this thread and continued from there.

Charcharo:

1. Yes, engineering also takes into account die size, average voltage of these chips, cost of production and even more importantly - power consumption.

Engineering also accounts for ease of use. It IS a factor in design. Even further, because a console is a well-defined, universal target platform, it makes it much easier to stabilize and test for. It can be guaranteed that a game developed for PS4, for instance, will work on all PS4 machines that have not been modified by the user. The same can not be said of PCs; the graphics card, driver, and OS compatibility lists for some games is proof of this, and you can't say it's less of an issue because it isn't.

Charcharo:

2. AMD is an American company. What, you think Sony and Nintendo can develop their own 14nm Finfet GPUs and CPUs? They don't have the ability mate.

PS4, Xbox One, Xbox Scorpio, PS 4 Pro - are all AMD engineered. Microsoft requested some things custom made on both Xboxes, but it was still AMD's (technically multi-cultural) engineers who did it.

Nintendo Switch - mostly Nvidia engineered. Nintendo has some input but I hope you understand that the difference in capability between Sony and Nintendo and even MS compared to AMD, Intel and Nvidia when it comes down to chip design and manufacturing... is completely impossible to breach. It is gigantic, in other words.

AMD and Nvidia are only partnered with Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo. However, Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo, for each of their respective consoles, manages production, marketing, distribution, sells, and holds the IP licensing. Thus, it is Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo that hold the rights to their respective consoles; AMD and Nvidia do not hold the rights to the consoles. Therefore, the consoles are not considered to be productions of either AMD or Nvidia. Instead, they are considered to be productions of Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo in their respective rights, and only one of those companies is American held.

Also, Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are responsible for the overall design of each of their consoles. They partnered with AMD and Nvidia for the design and manufacture of the core processors. And even so, Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo had some say in the design of those core processors to meet their respective engineering and business needs and constraints.

Charcharo:

3. Because the actual platform is long gone, very hard to find, so old it is breaking apart, without parts being made for it or unavailable. That is why. Technology dies. That is a fact. I dont want the conslow games to exist only in musems for future generations so emulation (which is BTW often superior to the original console) is the ONLY way we can protect our art form in the coming centuries.

This is only important to collectors and nostalgic gamers; the larger population merely moves on to the next game (this does not make them stupid just because they don't fit your way of doing things; that is your conceit). Thus, it is of subjective value that can only be ascertained by the individual for their own purposes. And a lot of people still have their old hardware in working condition because they took care of it. There are many such cases that can be found all over the Internet.

Charcharo:

4. Modding on Xbone is limited. Seriously, compare Fallout 4's modding to something like Underhell, Call of Chernobyl or Lost Alpha. It is like comparing a school game project to a AAA game.

Yet, it still exists, and there is the possibility of it improving, just as graphics on consoles have improved to the level that most people don't care about the difference anymore. Once you past the "good enough" threshold, there ceases to be a difference in value to individual. It is only the connoisseurs who will argue the differences, and often times those differences turn out to be psychological only. For instance, it has been shown that gamers, even PC gamers, can not tell the difference between 60fps and 120fps; human reflexes don't respond better than 100-120ms, which corresponds to a 8-10fps reaction time. Also the human eye can not resolve better than 1 arc minute of angular separation, which 4K television sets hit when used at normal viewing distances (considering that both PS4 Pro and upcoming Scorpion are capable of 4K output, this puts those consoles well into the "good enough" regime).

Charcharo:

5. A large percentage of gamers do not care for games as an art form and are stupid. I care for backwards compatibility a lot.
PC's modding and emulation capability means that almost no SP game is lost. Even when there is an incompatibility (for example GCN with very old hacked Oblivion Lost shaders) it can be fixed.

You personally care about backwards compatibility, so such capacity has value to you. That value does not extend to others, and it does not warrant calling them stupid just because they don't share your opinion. That is a conceit on your part.

It is true that a large percentage of gamers do not consider games as art. Hell, a lot of developers don't seem to consider games as art. However, again, this is does not warrant to call them stupid just because they don't share your opinion. That is, again, a conceit on your part.

These are both subjective value judgements that only the individual can ascertain the worth to them in deciding whether they will go with console gaming or PC gaming.

Charcharo:

6. Who has to mess with drivers and settings these days? Not only is that a total of 2 minutes (which you save with the MUCH faster loading times on PC) but the game does it for you. AMD and Nvidia's software do it for you. There is almost nothing a PC gamer needs to do. Ever.
It is a simple install - press exe - play. Game's select their own settings automatically. I despise that, but it seems most Muricans love it so it exists.

Ease of use is already masted. So close to consoles, if it matters the problem is in the user. The only times it matters is when the game is super old... but that is a scenario consoles dont have anyway so complaining is hypocrisy.

Plenty of people still mess with driver settings and driver installs in an attempt to further optimize play on their specific machine. Because of the different mix of architectures and APIs that can occur on the PC, there is no guarantee that the default settings are the real optimum point.

And again, you make a wholly bigoted statement in assuming that it is only Americans that like ease-of-use conveniences.

Charcharo:

7. I do not believe in Nostalgia. For all my love of old games, I feel no nostalgia for them or their consoles. The only use case for consoles is if someone wants to play 1-2 games (so PC can not become much cheaper over time) and that ... is it. Nothing more. I had a Terminator console when I was a child, but I can not feel this "Subjective, it isnt the numbers maan!" thing you are talking about. Math disagrees with it existing to boot.

This seems contradictory to your early statement. Shall we now label you as being stupid also by your own criteria above?

The math doesn't disagree because it's silent on the matter of subjectivity. This is because subjective properties can not be calculated logically. They are something that can only be weighted and evaluated on a case-by-case basis by the individual. What works for you may not work for others.

Charcharo:

8. I am an Eastern European gamer. Your consoles havent made it easier or cheaper to be a gamer here, you know. And BTW, you so far are ignorant on PC AND console gaming from what you have said so far.

I expected nothing else mate. I hope you respond nicely, if arrogant (like I did) and have a nice day. But so far it is literally same thing it has always been...

I know a lot more than you think.

So, far, the only one who has been arrogant is you. My original statement was a question why there is always felt this need to enter a thread on consoles and belittle everyone with the whole PC Master race shenanigans. Even further, I made a plea requesting to let people just game on the system of their choice without having to be berated by this PC Master race attitude that has pervaded far too much of the gaming community. In response, you have done nothing but respond with brutal arrogance, condescension, and blatant bigotry to this question.

You describe your specific socio-economic circumstances, and I could easily respond to that with a very haughty and what you would probably consider "typical Rich American" attitude regarding your plight. However, I have not done so and refuse to do so because that would be awful and conceited on my part. But, you have wasted no time to inject your clearly hate-filled bigotry and conceit at every turn. I get it; you hate Americans. Well, I can't stand PC Master race elitists, or the entire PC Master race meme, for that matter; both have been a blight on the gaming community, in my opinion.

ADDENDUM: I would also like to add that this entire thread started as a discussion of why the Xbox Scorpio may not, despite potentially better hardware, succeed as well as Microsoft would hope over the PS4 Pro. It was a discussion of one console versus another, and then you drop in with haughty "PCs are better" and "Everyone but me is an idiot" type statements, turning the thread into yet another useless PC vs consoles war-zone; thus, yours was the original conceit. As a result, I responded as I did because the sort of thing you have done is an occurrence that happens all too often, and some of us are just sick of seeing it.

geizr:

Charcharo:

Well what goes around comes around. Arrogance has to be responded with even more arrogance. I know it sucks but if it doesnt happen no one ever takes you seriously.

You launch the first salvo of conceit with your first post in this thread and continued from there.

Charcharo:

1. Yes, engineering also takes into account die size, average voltage of these chips, cost of production and even more importantly - power consumption.

Engineering also accounts for ease of use. It IS a factor in design. Even further, because a console is a well-defined, universal target platform, it makes it much easier to stabilize and test for. It can be guaranteed that a game developed for PS4, for instance, will work on all PS4 machines that have not been modified by the user. The same can not be said of PCs; the graphics card, driver, and OS compatibility lists for some games is proof of this, and you can't say it's less of an issue because it isn't.

Charcharo:

2. AMD is an American company. What, you think Sony and Nintendo can develop their own 14nm Finfet GPUs and CPUs? They don't have the ability mate.

PS4, Xbox One, Xbox Scorpio, PS 4 Pro - are all AMD engineered. Microsoft requested some things custom made on both Xboxes, but it was still AMD's (technically multi-cultural) engineers who did it.

Nintendo Switch - mostly Nvidia engineered. Nintendo has some input but I hope you understand that the difference in capability between Sony and Nintendo and even MS compared to AMD, Intel and Nvidia when it comes down to chip design and manufacturing... is completely impossible to breach. It is gigantic, in other words.

AMD and Nvidia are only partnered with Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo. However, Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo, for each of their respective consoles, manages production, marketing, distribution, sells, and holds the IP licensing. Thus, it is Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo that hold the rights to their respective consoles; AMD and Nvidia do not hold the rights to the consoles. Therefore, the consoles are not considered to be productions of either AMD or Nvidia. Instead, they are considered to be productions of Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo in their respective rights, and only one of those companies is American held.

Also, Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are responsible for the overall design of each of their consoles. They partnered with AMD and Nvidia for the design and manufacture of the core processors. And even so, Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo had some say in the design of those core processors to meet their respective engineering and business needs and constraints.

Charcharo:

3. Because the actual platform is long gone, very hard to find, so old it is breaking apart, without parts being made for it or unavailable. That is why. Technology dies. That is a fact. I dont want the conslow games to exist only in musems for future generations so emulation (which is BTW often superior to the original console) is the ONLY way we can protect our art form in the coming centuries.

This is only important to collectors and nostalgic gamers; the larger population merely moves on to the next game (this does not make them stupid just because they don't fit your way of doing things; that is your conceit). Thus, it is of subjective value that can only be ascertained by the individual for their own purposes. And a lot of people still have their old hardware in working condition because they took care of it. There are many such cases that can be found all over the Internet.

Charcharo:

4. Modding on Xbone is limited. Seriously, compare Fallout 4's modding to something like Underhell, Call of Chernobyl or Lost Alpha. It is like comparing a school game project to a AAA game.

Yet, it still exists, and there is the possibility of it improving, just as graphics on consoles have improved to the level that most people don't care about the difference anymore. Once you past the "good enough" threshold, there ceases to be a difference in value to individual. It is only the connoisseurs who will argue the differences, and often times those differences turn out to be psychological only. For instance, it has been shown that gamers, even PC gamers, can not tell the difference between 60fps and 120fps; human reflexes don't respond better than 100-120ms, which corresponds to a 8-10fps reaction time. Also the human eye can not resolve better than 1 arc minute of angular separation, which 4K television sets hit when used at normal viewing distances (considering that both PS4 Pro and upcoming Scorpion are capable of 4K output, this puts those consoles well into the "good enough" regime).

Charcharo:

5. A large percentage of gamers do not care for games as an art form and are stupid. I care for backwards compatibility a lot.
PC's modding and emulation capability means that almost no SP game is lost. Even when there is an incompatibility (for example GCN with very old hacked Oblivion Lost shaders) it can be fixed.

You personally care about backwards compatibility, so such capacity has value to you. That value does not extend to others, and it does not warrant calling them stupid just because they don't share your opinion. That is a conceit on your part.

It is true that a large percentage of gamers do not consider games as art. Hell, a lot of developers don't seem to consider games as art. However, again, this is does not warrant to call them stupid just because they don't share your opinion. That is, again, a conceit on your part.

These are both subjective value judgements that only the individual can ascertain the worth to them in deciding whether they will go with console gaming or PC gaming.

Charcharo:

6. Who has to mess with drivers and settings these days? Not only is that a total of 2 minutes (which you save with the MUCH faster loading times on PC) but the game does it for you. AMD and Nvidia's software do it for you. There is almost nothing a PC gamer needs to do. Ever.
It is a simple install - press exe - play. Game's select their own settings automatically. I despise that, but it seems most Muricans love it so it exists.

Ease of use is already masted. So close to consoles, if it matters the problem is in the user. The only times it matters is when the game is super old... but that is a scenario consoles dont have anyway so complaining is hypocrisy.

Plenty of people still mess with driver settings and driver installs in an attempt to further optimize play on their specific machine. Because of the different mix of architectures and APIs that can occur on the PC, there is no guarantee that the default settings are the real optimum point.

And again, you make a wholly bigoted statement in assuming that it is only Americans that like ease-of-use conveniences.

Charcharo:

7. I do not believe in Nostalgia. For all my love of old games, I feel no nostalgia for them or their consoles. The only use case for consoles is if someone wants to play 1-2 games (so PC can not become much cheaper over time) and that ... is it. Nothing more. I had a Terminator console when I was a child, but I can not feel this "Subjective, it isnt the numbers maan!" thing you are talking about. Math disagrees with it existing to boot.

This seems contradictory to your early statement. Shall we now label you as being stupid also by your own criteria above?

The math doesn't disagree because it's silent on the matter of subjectivity. This is because subjective properties can not be calculated logically. They are something that can only be weighted and evaluated on a case-by-case basis by the individual. What works for you may not work for others.

Charcharo:

8. I am an Eastern European gamer. Your consoles havent made it easier or cheaper to be a gamer here, you know. And BTW, you so far are ignorant on PC AND console gaming from what you have said so far.

I expected nothing else mate. I hope you respond nicely, if arrogant (like I did) and have a nice day. But so far it is literally same thing it has always been...

I know a lot more than you think.

So, far, the only one who has been arrogant is you. My original statement was a question why there is always felt this need to enter a thread on consoles and belittle everyone with the whole PC Master race shenanigans. Even further, I made a plea requesting to let people just game on the system of their choice without having to be berated by this PC Master race attitude that has pervaded far too much of the gaming community. In response, you have done nothing but respond with brutal arrogance, condescension, and blatant bigotry to this question.

You describe your specific socio-economic circumstances, and I could easily respond to that with a very haughty and what you would probably consider "typical Rich American" attitude regarding your plight. However, I have not done so and refuse to do so because that would be awful and conceited on my part. But, you have wasted no time to inject your clearly hate-filled bigotry and conceit at every turn. I get it; you hate Americans. Well, I can't stand PC Master race elitists, or the entire PC Master race meme, for that matter; both have been a blight on the gaming community, in my opinion.

ADDENDUM: I would also like to add that this entire thread started as a discussion of why the Xbox Scorpio may not, despite potentially better hardware, succeed as well as Microsoft would hope over the PS4 Pro. It was a discussion of one console versus another, and then you drop in with haughty "PCs are better" and "Everyone but me is an idiot" type statements, turning the thread into yet another useless PC vs consoles war-zone; thus, yours was the original conceit. As a result, I responded as I did because the sort of thing you have done is an occurrence that happens all too often, and some of us are just sick of seeing it.

1. Ease of use is an OS factor. One Microsoft has accounted for in Windows. If it wasnt easy to use, it would not have become the dominant human invention nowadays.
"Drivers and GPUs and CPUs!" is an incorrect myth. Mate you do realize even AMD/Nvidia sponsored games work fine on other hardware? You understand that just because an old VLIW5 ATI GPU isnt MEANT to play an Nvidia game like TW3, nothing stops it from trying? Even without drivers?

This is not some arcane magic guys. This problem was solved 18 years ago...
Standards exist and are obeyed.

2. The point wasnt about who hold the IP. It was about who MADE the hardware. Nintendo and SONY and Microsoft can not even if they tried. That was the point. Or they can try and make... something pathetic because they are 15 years behind in this area and lack the engineers and know how. That was my point.

Your PS4 was made by an AMD engineer working with a MS engineer/employee. Well not like that exactly, but a simpler explanation I hope. A Japanese SONY/Nintendo Engineer had little say as they simply aren't good enough in THIS exact field of work. So yeah, your console's hardware is made by AMD/Nvidia's engineers mostly. With some small tweaks here and there from Sony or MS or Ninty.

And Sony/MS/Ninty can not rush forward designs. MS can not ask for Vega or Ryzen in 2016, simply because it would be impossible. Nintendo were cheap, but even if they werent - no way can they order a Volta based system before it is ready.

Sony and Nintendo and MS can not ask for a 550mm^2 die for their console nor can they spend a 500 watt power budget. Engineering constraints set by AMD and Nvidia as well as the laws of physics and no force on Earth will help bar the console costing 1000+ dollars of course. :P

3. So basically "Well most people are stupid and have no love for the art form and its long term future lel!". I know that. Thanks for reminding me. But just because others are savage barbarians doesnt mean I will be.

Call me when they can keep working silicon alive for 100 years. They will deserve an award to boot.

4. Someone lied to you about the FPS part. There is a huge difference between a 144hz screen displaying 144 frames and a 60 hz screen displaying 60 fps. The difference between 144 hz and 240 hz is smaller, I agree. But someone seriously lied to you about this. ANd I am not some superhuman being, even if the thought of that does appeal.

How will you get good enough modding then? It is either AAA tier with mods that rival OFFICIAL games or it isnt.

5. Well we have a gigantic difference in values here. If I see some ape-like creature tell me that literature isnt an art form, I will simply call them a barbarian and move on unless they are going for some decently well developed meta-analysis of the human condition or something.

And it changes nothing. Those people have zero good points about why games arent an art form and that puts them at direct odds with me. Have you seen this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lost_films
When such a list exists for video games, I will mock them hard for they damaged what I love. Red lines are not to be crossed as there is almost no fixing such mistakes.

6. Because those people WANT to do that. Your console already has issues hitting 30 fps, let alone 400+ or advanced FA or AA. If you are happy with a console then a PC will MORE than satisfy you even without any tweaking. This is not a serious point at all.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. Of course it isnt only them, but they treat me badly so I treat them badly back. Fair really.

7. The old games are good. That is the reason. Silly Failed movie or Third Person Action Adventure number 34 deserve my protection just as much by the way, but so do old classics and cult hits... and all in-between. For all my arrogance, I do not assume what is good and what is not since all of it needs to exist and be protected.

And again, some of those old games are simply damn good really. Hell, a mod for a 10 year old game is so far my game of the DECADE. Easily beating even the best AAA/AA games.

Subjectivity has a limit. I know school over there has terrible literary education, but even art is to some real extent objective. Now as for something FAR simpler than art... must we even have this debate? Just because some rich bros from USA think they can trample an art form doesnt mean I will let them.

8. At least about technology, you know little. Obviously I am sure you know a lot about other things, but technology - nope. This is not a personal attack, it is just how I see it.

I do not hate Americans. Some of my only internet friends are Americans and gamers. I hate the often CORRECT stereotypes associated with them. Because it is not fucking fair that this is correct and that there is little I can do about it. Dont confuse frustration with hate.

I hate "PCMR" meme users too because they are affected by company fanboyism. Either AyyMDrones or Nvidiots or Shintel users who drank too much propaganda. People who care more about how stupid shallow game number 49 looks rather than modding, emulation and backwards compatibility. I call them PC peasants. There is some fun in fanboying for a company, but when it becomes serious... it is an issue.

I hate the meme too, not the idea though.

PS: "would probably consider "typical Rich American" attitude regarding your plight" that is not an issue and can be countered by me quite easily in general. It has happened to me before, it won't impress me so don't worry. It wont make me mad and I wont judge you badly for it.

 

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