PewDiePie, Firewatch and DMCA

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On a recent video PewDiePie said a bad word. (He realised he goofed and apologised).

The developers behind Firewatch decided to DMCA a sepearate let's play Pewds did of their game because of this - they claimed that they didn't want him making money from them.

I can't help but think this could be bad news in the long run. If devs can start having videos taken down because of grudges it's going to have negative effects on consumers. A Youtuber is critical of your game? DMCA it, criticism disappears. Got the wrong opinion on something, bang there goes you video. Get them a few strikes and there goes, potentially, their livelihood.

Pewds did privatise the video in question after the developer complained, stopping him from making money, but hey still pressed ahead with the DMCA.

I believe this had led to review bombing Firewatch on Steam in protest of the DMCA use.

So do you agree with the copyright system being used in this manner? What other ways could it be handled.

Johnlives:
On a recent video PewDiePie said a bad word. (He realised he goofed and apologised).

The developers behind Firewatch decided to DMCA a sepearate let's play Pewds did of their game because of this - they claimed that they didn't want him making money from them.

I can't help but think this could be bad news in the long run. If devs can start having videos taken down because of grudges it's going to have negative effects on consumers. A Youtuber is critical of your game? DMCA it, criticism disappears. Got the wrong opinion on something, bang there goes you video. Get them a few strikes and there goes, potentially, their livelihood.

Pewds did privatise the video in question after the developer complained, stopping him from making money, but hey still pressed ahead with the DMCA.

I believe this had led to review bombing Firewatch on Steam in protest of the DMCA use.

So do you agree with the copyright system being used in this manner? What other ways could it be handled.

Pew is a fuckwit who deserves all of the scorn, derision, and condemnation (note: none of that includes any type of threats) that comes his way along with all of the lost business it may cost him, but the DMCA is a step too far.

If we want to ensure that people can make videos that are critical of publishers such as EA/Ubisoft/WB/etc and their games without being hit by DMCA strikes, videos like Pew's have to be left free of them too. I'm sure that all of those shitty Steam devs would love to DMCA Jim Sterling's videos because they don't want him making money off playing their games (and criticizing them), but they can't be allowed to do that; the Pew situation is, regrettably, no different.

Johnlives:
If devs can start having videos taken down because of grudges it's going to have negative effects on consumers.

Start? You're years late to the party. Arguably, Campo Santo's DMCA and of future DMCA threats weren't motivated by grudge; but by business (specifically PR, because if they are associated with someone big who offends their customers then they'll lose the later). However I agree they should have spoke with Felix instead.

PewPiePants isn't the victim here. My sympathies are with everyone else he's fucking this up for by being a piece of shit.

I've never liked that guy. He came across as a self-important prick that liked to stir up the pot because he could. And now it seems like his ego is finally catching up with him.
If that's the first word that pops into your head when you want to insult someone in a moment of rage, then you probably have some issues deeper down. And I don't really blame the makers of Firewatch wanting to distance themselves from someone like that. It's unfortunate that the only way they can do that though is by using the DMCA, because that is a very slippery slope.
I think it's like Jim Sterling said in his video on this thing: PPP is going to ruin it for the rest of YouTube because he can't keep is f-ing mouth shut.

My only real problem with this situation is website celebrating firewatch dev move when just a few months ago they were decrying when dev were using DMCA against Jim.

I think people should just be consistent, either you think DMCA shouldn't apply to lets play video, in which case they never should. Or DMCA can apply to lets play, in which they can no matter the situation (you don't like the person making the video or you don't like the video itself).

I just hate when people switch there opinion based on whether they like/agree with person involved. The law shouldn't take into account people, just action directly involved with the event themselves.

Some people believe, like moviebob so succinctly put it, that there's no bad tactics, just bad target. That's probably how every bad thing in humanity was justified.

I've never liked Pewdiepie, but spurious DMCA claims are never acceptable.
If this goes to court, Campo Santo might win, and that will set a president for game footage on the internet, resulting in a lot more takedowns.

Seeing as I recently got back from a pre-wedding present thing from my fiance's family in India that basically sent us through alot of countries, mostly Asia, but also some of Europe, I really have to say that I heard alot more hard-R's than I expected(no, seriously, I heard more going through there than I have living most of my life in the middle of nowhere with wannabe gangsters). Really going to have to just chalk it up to different cultures, different degrees of what is and isn't appropriate or actually out there.

Guy was playing a game and got upset, and said the first thing that came to mind. And keep in mind that the guy made his image off of being an impulsively explosive vulgar Swede playing games and has basically been doing that for almost ten years. Habits form, and you don't always pay attention or particularly care when a camera is on you after a certain point in time, so you just put on the persona and go with it.

Guy apologized, anyone that still wants to go after him because of a slip-up has alot more problems than they're willing to admit, the least of which(going by some of the posts here) seems to be an overly obsessive interest in breaking someone down because they don't like them or their content.

Redryhno:
Seeing as I recently got back from a pre-wedding present thing from my fiance's family in India that basically sent us through alot of countries, mostly Asia, but also some of Europe, I really have to say that I heard alot more hard-R's than I expected(no, seriously, I heard more going through there than I have living most of my life in the middle of nowhere with wannabe gangsters). Really going to have to just chalk it up to different cultures, different degrees of what is and isn't appropriate or actually out there.

Guy was playing a game and got upset, and said the first thing that came to mind. And keep in mind that the guy made his image off of being an impulsively explosive vulgar Swede playing games and has basically been doing that for almost ten years. Habits form, and you don't always pay attention or particularly care when a camera is on you after a certain point in time, so you just put on the persona and go with it.

Guy apologized, anyone that still wants to go after him because of a slip-up has alot more problems than they're willing to admit, the least of which(going by some of the posts here) seems to be an overly obsessive interest in breaking someone down because they don't like them or their content.

a complete accidental slip up that's been consistent with previous actions up to this point. because lets be honest here, Pewdster has done more apologizing than playing games as of late.

maybe a dude whose first thought when frustrated is "that fucking nigger" isn't a good dude

Yeah I'll echo what others have said here and that DMCA should just not be used for this purpose.

Having said that, PewDiePie is just the worst. Not funny, "edgy" in the way a 13-year-old who learned a new swear is edgy, obnoxious in a way that is incredibly unself-aware. Are all his fans little kids?

undeadsuitor:

Redryhno:
Seeing as I recently got back from a pre-wedding present thing from my fiance's family in India that basically sent us through alot of countries, mostly Asia, but also some of Europe, I really have to say that I heard alot more hard-R's than I expected(no, seriously, I heard more going through there than I have living most of my life in the middle of nowhere with wannabe gangsters). Really going to have to just chalk it up to different cultures, different degrees of what is and isn't appropriate or actually out there.

Guy was playing a game and got upset, and said the first thing that came to mind. And keep in mind that the guy made his image off of being an impulsively explosive vulgar Swede playing games and has basically been doing that for almost ten years. Habits form, and you don't always pay attention or particularly care when a camera is on you after a certain point in time, so you just put on the persona and go with it.

Guy apologized, anyone that still wants to go after him because of a slip-up has alot more problems than they're willing to admit, the least of which(going by some of the posts here) seems to be an overly obsessive interest in breaking someone down because they don't like them or their content.

a complete accidental slip up that's been consistent with previous actions up to this point. because lets be honest here, Pewdster has done more apologizing than playing games as of late.

maybe a dude whose first thought when frustrated is "that fucking nigger" isn't a good dude

Care to link? Or are we just going to play another rousing round of the internet classic "I heard once" and "I don't have the time to back up what I"m saying"?

What "previous actions" are we talking about here? The mocking of the media with the faux-zi outfit? The Shadow of Mordor thing that is about the closest thing I've seen that has an ounce of truth to it, and even that was only slightly scummy since he had it as sponsored in his description, and he didn't even need to do it at that point in time, by law he was in the clear.

And did you really not read a damn thing I just wrote? "Nigger" is apparently only a slightly uncommon utterance outside the U.S. I'm sorta surprised by it as well. But I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a guy that honestly had no real reason to apologize for it apologizing for it. I'm willing to maybe not jump immediately to "RACIST" simply because it was said once in a lapse of judgement because the guy was playing a game and got upset by it.

Like, can you tell me why you can't think of it as something similar to someone dropping into a hometown accent or cussing in their native language? Because I"m seeing it about the same at the moment. Not everything revolves around the U.S., not everyone has the same words that are anathema as a culture/country/community as the U.S. I mean, Bitch, Old Man, Faggot, Shitcake, Motherfucker, Cunt, Cyka Blat. Depending on the language and country you're in, they may have different meanings and different historical connotations. How about the idea that the worst word to exclaim to express how annoyed he was was that one first and it had nothing more behind it?

Why are these immediately thrown out in favor of "he's a despicable human being"?

PewDiePie did not "realize he goofed and apologized". He got yelled at and apologized. Same as all the other times.

There is a difference between a sincere apology and having someone drag you by the ear.

PDP's at best, a gibbering idiot, but yeah, the Firewatch devs are also as bad as every other company abusing DMCA's for things they aren't meant to be used for.

I was kind of hoping for a battle over it though. Pewdepie probably has enough cash to keep the legal fight up against an indie developer, in an inversion of the usual scenario with BS DMCAs. Which would allow the case to establish a precedent about it.

Saelune:
PewDiePie did not "realize he goofed and apologized". He got yelled at and apologized. Same as all the other times.

There is a difference between a sincere apology and having someone drag you by the ear.

I never understood that about him. Why does he not go full trump, double down and just blame teh SJWs like that Johntron guy? It's not like it would harm him with his audience.

I wonder if the people defending Pewd's here would be nearly as eager if what he uttered was "Fucking cis white male shitlord!"

Can someone explain to me the whole "it's our word, you can't use that word" mentality? I constantly hear that it's the most racist word in the English language, yet anytime I flip on the radio every rap song is dropping it left, right and center and I'm suppose to believe these people take genuine offense? I'm Asian and you'd never hear us call each others chinks. To the people saying "it's never funny, in any context" the Boondocks would like to have a word with you.

Smithnikov:
I wonder if the people defending Pewd's here would be nearly as eager if what he uttered was "Fucking cis white male shitlord!"

Well, I know for a fact I would take it about as seriously.

I mean, really now. A Swede - therefore, someone for whom English is, presumably, at least a second language - uttered a word that has become since the advent of teh internetz, on my own word as someone else for whom English is a also a second language, about as generic an insult as "asshole"... and we're supposed to take it as a smoking gun as to his self-evident and deeply-ingrained hatred of black people?

Come on.

Ogoid:

Smithnikov:
I wonder if the people defending Pewd's here would be nearly as eager if what he uttered was "Fucking cis white male shitlord!"

Well, I know for a fact I would take it about as seriously.

I mean, really now. A Swede - therefore, someone for whom English is, presumably, at least a second language - uttered a word that has become since the advent of teh internetz, on my own word as someone else for whom English is a also a second language, about as generic an insult as "asshole"... and we're supposed to take it as a smoking gun as to his self-evident and deeply-ingrained hatred of black people?

Come on.

*Shrug* Some of us grew up in a time and place where that wasn't the case. I'm sorry, just not mentally ready to say "oh, that totally is a FINE word to use in conversations now".

Saelune:
PewDiePie did not "realize he goofed and apologized". He got yelled at and apologized. Same as all the other times.

There is a difference between a sincere apology and having someone drag you by the ear.

As all the other times? Care to link, explain, do literally anything other than act like everyone knows what you're talking about?

Smithnikov:
I wonder if the people defending Pewd's here would be nearly as eager if what he uttered was "Fucking cis white male shitlord!"

Considering it's Felix, about the same amount of care. Like I said, the guy built his fanbase out of being a loud impulsive guy with a Swedish accent. What he says has about as much meaning behind it as the sun rolling out from behind a cloud while you're staring at the sky. Probably even less because look at reality, he's an entertainer, and entertainers don't always look more than a joke or gig ahead most of the time.

I'm not saying it's completely okay, but when in doubt, Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor. Both some of the greatest comedians of the last century, and both full of obscenity for very specific reasons that were right. Ignore that Pryor blew up his house and face with his drug use, or that Bruce was a (incredibly stupid and unsuccessful) conman about as often as he was writing jokes or movies, and most of their work focuses on breaking down tensions when it comes to language and what is and isn't allowed to be said. The more often someone is exposed to "nigger", much like the more often they're exposed to "teh geyz" as people, the simpler it is to ease more people into it so that stereotypes and history no longer particularly matter. The day every black boy can come home from school and not be upset by someone calling him a "nigger"(with full knowledge of what the word is) is the day that the U.S. can actually move a step forward as far as I'm concerned. Much the same with kike, chink, whitey, oreo, etc.

Because at the end of the day, we're talking about words and the meaning behind them. And I'm not particularly seeing where the hate that people are assuming accompanies anyone that utters the word is. I mean, we're talking about a guy that raised nearly a million over three years of charity streams for getting people clean water in developing countries, most of which are, if you remember, in Africa these days. If he was as much of a racist as people are assuming he is without telling me why they think that, don't you think he could've found a charity that, ya know, didn't primarily help the object of his hatred?

Not to say everything is open season, I still consider Uncle Tom and equivalents to be my line I won't allow to be crossed simply because it's an ousting and othering over opinion and actions not falling in line with the expectations you have of your fellow skin color. Which in alot of ways, is even worse than other forms of racism. One at least has tribalism and "you don't look like me, I don't like that" behind it, as flimsy of an explanation/excuse as it is, at least it has some basis in nature. The other seems to be uttered by self-important pricks in their bubbles not liking that other people from their group have different opinions and outcomes.

Smithnikov:
I wonder if the people defending Pewd's here would be nearly as eager if what he uttered was "Fucking cis white male shitlord!"

I would find that kinda funny.

...Does that make me a bad person?

//White, cis, male... though not fucking at the moment, and, as far as I can tell, not a shitlord

Redryhno:
I'm not saying it's completely okay, but

So yes, you are saying it's completely okay.

I don't think Pewds is an out-and-out racist. I think he's ignorant and careless. He shock-jocked on YT and now that he has an audience in the tens of millions, he's running into the problem of being a niche humor comedian on mainstream platforms. People who aren't in the entertainment industry tend to assume they know how it works when they really don't, and that's why we have people making shitty excuses for his mistakes that are completely avoidable.

Right now there is very little jurisprudence about this sort of thing. It's actually good that Felix is deciding not to fight this in court, because the precedent set by the outcome could have been incredibly damaging if he and his legal team blew it.

Let's Plays are in that grey bit of legal area not shared by things like reviews or critiques. A legal decision about DMCAing Let's Plays isn't going to effect spurious claims on reviews or critiques, as both of those have a great amount of legal precedent already.

The danger is that Let's Plays and streams are neither reviews nor critiques. It's filming a dude playing your game. The only reason it's lasted as long as it has is because companies have made the business decision that Let's Plays do more good than harm. And if the biggest Let's Player in the world starts throwing around the NhardR, or the holocaust jokes, or whatever, those businesses are going to get skittish, and the advertisers spending money on the platforms that host Let's Plays and streams are going to get skittish, and if there's one thing that's bad for Twitch's and YouTube's bottom lines, it's skittish businesses.

So if the big, vocal guys like Pewds keep fucking up in ways that make businesses skittish, well, expect more Nintendo Creators Programs. At best.

Johnlives:
On a recent video PewDiePie said a bad word. (He realised he goofed and apologised).

I think this is an *extremely* charitable view of what transpired and glosses over Pewdiepie's recent history with making controversial statements. We've all said "bad words" from time to time, but if you scream arguably the most well-known and cruel racial epithet there is in a hurtful way (i.e., not a joke), then it's more than a "goof."

Johnlives:
The developers behind Firewatch decided to DMCA a sepearate let's play Pewds did of their game because of this - they claimed that they didn't want him making money from them.

I can't help but think this could be bad news in the long run. If devs can start having videos taken down because of grudges it's going to have negative effects on consumers. A Youtuber is critical of your game? DMCA it, criticism disappears. Got the wrong opinion on something, bang there goes you video. Get them a few strikes and there goes, potentially, their livelihood.

That being said, I agree with you on this. I completely understand the developer's frustration with having Pewdiepie make money off their content and their unwillingness to support him, but...this is absolutely the wrong way. If Campo Santo sets the standard here, then the standard will inevitably being missused and abused by other companies down the road, and that will hurt not just the YouTuber community but games media and criticism overall. If you want to call out Pewdiepie, fine. If you want to stop giving him review code (a token gesture that won't matter to him AT ALL), go ahead. But the developer should have refrained from using DMCAs here.

Ogoid:

Smithnikov:
I wonder if the people defending Pewd's here would be nearly as eager if what he uttered was "Fucking cis white male shitlord!"

Well, I know for a fact I would take it about as seriously.

I mean, really now. A Swede - therefore, someone for whom English is, presumably, at least a second language - uttered a word that has become since the advent of teh internetz, on my own word as someone else for whom English is a also a second language, about as generic an insult as "asshole"... and we're supposed to take it as a smoking gun as to his self-evident and deeply-ingrained hatred of black people?

Come on.

1. Are you honestly arguing he didn't know what that word meant -- even after he apologized and acknowledge how hurtful that word is?
2. I don't know that he's racist, because I don't know the man. But he yelled arguably THE most racist word there is at someone, and I'm not going to sit back and say, "Well, he's Swedish, so..." Whether or not he's racist doesn't change the fact he made an extremely offensive remark.
3. Your defense of Pewdiepie -- that the n-word has become a generic insult in gaming -- is more of an indictment on gamers and the systemic cultural rot at the core of gaming, where gamers believe they're entitled to say whatever the fuck they want online because it's their safe space from any consequences. Using the n-word as a generic insult isn't okay. It's toxic. That I have to even write out that statement is seriously troubling.

EDIT: One other thing -- Pewdiepie isn't some kid who plays too much XBL and said a few bad words. He's not only an adult, but he's also the biggest YouTuber and gaming influencer/personality on the planet. This is his JOB, for FFS. He should act like a professional. I don't think it's too much to ask that one NOT yell "what a f---ing n---er!"

Exley97:

1. Are you honestly arguing he didn't know what that word meant -- even after he apologized and acknowledge how hurtful that word is?

I'm saying he probably just blurted out the first insult to cross his mind. Lord knows I've done it, every now and then.

As for his apologizing, it came - surprisingly enough - after a whole lot of people who seem to have some inexplicably large chips on their shoulders about some Youtube vlogger made lots and lots of noise about it.

2. I don't know that he's racist, because I don't know the man. But he yelled arguably THE most racist word there is at someone, and I'm not going to sit back and say, "Well, he's Swedish, so..." Whether or not he's racist doesn't change the fact he made an extremely offensive remark.

He said it, as far as I could make out, at an NPC - a "person" whose existence consists entirely of pixels on a screen. Call me callous, but that doesn't really strike me as something worth taking offense over.

3. Your defense of Pewdiepie -- that the n-word has become a generic insult in gaming -- is more of an indictment on gamers and the systemic cultural rot at the core of gaming, where gamers believe they're entitled to say whatever the fuck they want online because it's their safe space from any consequences. Using the n-word as a generic insult isn't okay. It's toxic. That I have to even write out that statement is seriously troubling.

EDIT: One other thing -- Pewdiepie isn't some kid who plays too much XBL and said a few bad words. He's not only an adult, but he's also the biggest YouTuber and gaming influencer/personality on the planet. This is his JOB, for FFS. He should act like a professional. I don't think it's too much to ask that one NOT yell "what a f---ing n---er!"

Offense is taken, not given, and words only have exactly as much power as people ascribe them. If most started to treat this one in particular like gamers do, instead of freaking the fuck out at the mere hint of is utterance, it'd probably have completely lost its every racial connotation by now... which strikes me as a good thing.

And about Felix's professionalism... I wouldn't really know, because I don't watch his videos, but I'm under the impression he made it big by being loud and boisterous and yes, occasionally profane; so by his own standards, I don't think this was particularly unprofessional.

Ogoid:

Smithnikov:
I wonder if the people defending Pewd's here would be nearly as eager if what he uttered was "Fucking cis white male shitlord!"

Well, I know for a fact I would take it about as seriously.

I mean, really now. A Swede - therefore, someone for whom English is, presumably, at least a second language - uttered a word that has become since the advent of teh internetz, on my own word as someone else for whom English is a also a second language, about as generic an insult as "asshole"... and we're supposed to take it as a smoking gun as to his self-evident and deeply-ingrained hatred of black people?

Come on.

I have to piggyback on this, since I made some recent decisions about my priorities in allocating my limited attention. So not everyone is as visible or as quotable for me.

Anyway, I know I use "fucking cis white male shitlord" as an endearment, even for cool people who are not "cis white males". But some people unironically use it as if it was a bad thing, which is just racist, misandrist and cisphobic. Ignoring context would just be inhumanly mechanistic and limit communication to the dully literal.

And since I'm here, I might as well weigh in on the rest. Limited as my understanding of neurolinguistics is, I believe it's very plausible that people just don't develop the same intensity of emotional valence in regards to words in languages other than their first, or the dominant language of their childhood. That is, a Swede like Mr. Kjellberg can be expected to know on an intellectual level that a given word is considered very offensive to some people, while not feeling the transgression like he would in case of a word that was integrated in his childhood conceptual framework. This might be something akin to an autistic person painstakingly interpreting someone's emotional state from various cues, instead of understanding it through instantaneous empathy, even if nowhere on the same scale or disadvantageous effect.

For what it's worth, that would simply suggest that it takes far less callousness of a native speaker of Swedish to utter this word than of someone who grew up in an environment where it was an operative term of denigration, which may be something to consider when flocking to judge the guy. To him, it's likely just another naughty word in a way that anyone who has ever gotten into a habit of swearing in a foreign language would understand. Try it for yourself and see if you can tell the difference. I know I can, and I've certainly seen it in action, in places where the speakers of a minority language would regularly punctuate their speech with swear words in the dominant language. They just don't seem to feel it's as "obscene".

Now, as for the word slipping out, if I were a Speech Detective (any recruiters plz msg me!), I would suspect that it's a word that the guy probably uses as just such a simple swear with little cognitive content in a private context. Which seems to be what his producer (who I gather is a black guy) implied when he said it's a word they use while goofing with each other with no "hateful" meaning. And those kinds of words can just slip out, because swearing as a phenomenon utilizes different, less highly evolved neural circuits than ordinary speech, at least according to clinical findings regarding aphasiacs who have lost the ability to speak anything other than swear words. For anyone interested in popular accounts, Dr. Oliver Sacks has written about the subject for general audiences, though I can't recall in which exact book.

As for the rest of it, the hysteria is preposterous. The Campo Santo guy is obviously someone for whom virtue-signalling calls for blacklists are the "go-to" mode of automatic expression when encountering any frustration, which in my opinion is more alarming than an ugly word now and then. It's probably something he's saying all the time with his friends, possibly without even considering the consequences: "Hey, this guy blue shelled me in Mario Kart! I'M CALLING ON ALL MUH POWERFUL FRIENDS TO OSTRACIZE HIM FOR THIS HATEFUL BEHAVIOR!" I mean, is he supposed to seriously think any sane person is going to see PewDiePie play his precious walking sim and go "Oh noes, whoever made this game must be hard core RAYCIS!" and boycott it as a consequence? Hmmm. Maybe their gang actually do conduct themselves in that way? Either way, it's not good.

And parents, don't just sit there complaining about the character of silly Youtube funnymen you expect to raise your children. Duh.

Ogoid:

Exley97:

1. Are you honestly arguing he didn't know what that word meant -- even after he apologized and acknowledge how hurtful that word is?

I'm saying he probably just blurted out the first insult to cross his mind. Lord knows I've done it, every now and then.

As for his apologizing, it came - surprisingly enough - after a whole lot of people who seem to have some inexplicably large chips on their shoulders about some Youtube vlogger made lots and lots of noise about it.

2. I don't know that he's racist, because I don't know the man. But he yelled arguably THE most racist word there is at someone, and I'm not going to sit back and say, "Well, he's Swedish, so..." Whether or not he's racist doesn't change the fact he made an extremely offensive remark.

He said it, as far as I could make out, at an NPC - a "person" whose existence consists entirely of pixels on a screen. Call me callous, but that doesn't really strike me as something worth taking offense over.

3. Your defense of Pewdiepie -- that the n-word has become a generic insult in gaming -- is more of an indictment on gamers and the systemic cultural rot at the core of gaming, where gamers believe they're entitled to say whatever the fuck they want online because it's their safe space from any consequences. Using the n-word as a generic insult isn't okay. It's toxic. That I have to even write out that statement is seriously troubling.

EDIT: One other thing -- Pewdiepie isn't some kid who plays too much XBL and said a few bad words. He's not only an adult, but he's also the biggest YouTuber and gaming influencer/personality on the planet. This is his JOB, for FFS. He should act like a professional. I don't think it's too much to ask that one NOT yell "what a f---ing n---er!"

Offense is taken, not given, and words only have exactly as much power as people ascribe them. If most started to treat this one in particular like gamers do, instead of freaking the fuck out at the mere hint of is utterance, it'd probably have completely lost its every racial connotation by now... which strikes me as a good thing.

And about Felix's professionalism... I wouldn't really know, because I don't watch his videos, but I'm under the impression he made it big by being loud and boisterous and yes, occasionally profane; so by his own standards, I don't think this was particularly unprofessional.

1. If you want to establish yourself as a member of the "I say the n-word occassionally but I'm definitely NOT racist so don't ever call me racist and if people are offended then that's THEIR problem" camp, then you go right ahead.
2. He's not "some vlogger." Once again, he's the biggest YouTuber/gaming media member on the planet. He should carry himself as such instead of resorting to the kind of behavior that he himself finds immature and objectionable.
3. Again, do you honestly believe he doesn't know what the word means?
4. "Offense is taken, not given"? Really? That's interesting because I'm old enough to remember when you and other Gamergate supporters took EXTREME offense to folks writing that "'gamers' are over" and wailed about it incessantly for months. It's also the same movement that obsessed over every off-color Twitter comment that "aGGers" made in an effort to get some folks fired. So in light of your comment, Ogoid, I'm wondering -- how many times did you say "Hey fellow GGers, let's cool it and not overreact because OFFENSE IS TAKEN NOT GIVEN, GUYS"? Conversely, how many times did you slam aGGers for what you perceived to be offensive Tweets or articles? Where was your position that people are too easily offended back then?

Exley97:

1. If you want to establish yourself as a member of the "I say the n-word occassionally but I'm definitely NOT racist so don't ever call me racist and if people are offended then that's THEIR problem" camp, then you go right ahead.
2. He's not "some vlogger." Once again, he's the biggest YouTuber/gaming media member on the planet. He should carry himself as such instead of resorting to the kind of behavior that he himself finds immature and objectionable.
3. Again, do you honestly believe he doesn't know what the word means?
4. "Offense is taken, not given"? Really? That's interesting because I'm old enough to remember when you and other Gamergate supporters took EXTREME offense to folks writing that "'gamers' are over" and wailed about it incessantly for months. It's also the same movement that obsessed over every off-color Twitter comment that "aGGers" made in an effort to get some folks fired. So in light of your comment, Ogoid, I'm wondering -- how many times did you say "Hey fellow GGers, let's cool it and not overreact because OFFENSE IS TAKEN NOT GIVEN, GUYS"? Conversely, how many times did you slam aGGers for what you perceived to be offensive Tweets or articles? Where was your position that people are too easily offended back then?

OK, I believe Ogoid is perfectly able to address your assumptions about him personally, so I'mma skip that one. As for the rest:

2. Well, that's a nice, civil opinion. And that's all. To some degree I would agree.

3. I addressed this, see above.

4. Those articles were not a bad word that slipped out accidentally. They were all part of a coordinated campaign to persuade the games industry to deliberately start alienating their existing audience, and the sentiments expressed were extremely stereotyping and hostile. There is no valid comparison to this storm in an akvavit glass. And "slamming" all the aGG freaks calling for (among other things) death camps for gamers with "Wiimotes made out of their teeth" and fantasizing about beating the hanged corpses of gamers "like pinatas" with a baseball bat, as well as the marginally saner vicious garbage issuing from their tweetholes, was an example of holding the preachers to their own standards. Perhaps you are familiar with the concept?

Ogoid:
I'm saying he probably just blurted out the first insult to cross his mind. Lord knows I've done it, every now and then.

You shout racial slurs out of reflex?

As for his apologizing, it came - surprisingly enough - after a whole lot of people who seem to have some inexplicably large chips on their shoulders about some Youtube vlogger made lots and lots of noise about it.

When has the, "I'm not offended, therefor no one else is allowed to be," argument ever worked?

He said it, as far as I could make out, at an NPC - a "person" whose existence consists entirely of pixels on a screen. Call me callous, but that doesn't really strike me as something worth taking offense over.

Yeah, it's not an important issue like ethics in games journalism or anything. It's not like he publicly supported feminism or expressed a fondness for arty games.

Offense is taken, not given, and words only have exactly as much power as people ascribe them.

Which is real easy for middle class white boys like you and me to say, considering we don't have to deal with systemic racism on a daily basis.

I have friends who are black and after knowing them for years, they have given me N-word Privileges. I can use that word around them because they told me it's okay. They know I would never use the word in anger or malice. Hell, 90% of the time, it only comes up in the context of us talking about Tarantino movies. That doesn't mean they let just anyone say it though. I earned their trust by being their friend. And that is worth far to me than whatever self-satisfaction you get from continually painting yourself as the victim of the mean ol' mud people telling you not to call them names.

As an aside, the hypocrisy here is kind of hilarious given the number of times on this forum you've whined about terms like "cis" allegedly being a slur.

And about Felix's professionalism... I wouldn't really know, because I don't watch his videos, but I'm under the impression he made it big by being loud and boisterous and yes, occasionally profane; so by his own standards, I don't think this was particularly unprofessional.

Pewds in his apology said he knows he's better than this and wants to do better. Apparently, you aren't better than that.

Tell me something: why do you want to call people niggers? Why is it so important to you that you get to say this word without repercussion?

BeetleManiac:

Redryhno:
I'm not saying it's completely okay, but

So yes, you are saying it's completely okay.

I don't think Pewds is an out-and-out racist. I think he's ignorant and careless. He shock-jocked on YT and now that he has an audience in the tens of millions, he's running into the problem of being a niche humor comedian on mainstream platforms. People who aren't in the entertainment industry tend to assume they know how it works when they really don't, and that's why we have people making shitty excuses for his mistakes that are completely avoidable.

Right now there is very little jurisprudence about this sort of thing. It's actually good that Felix is deciding not to fight this in court, because the precedent set by the outcome could have been incredibly damaging if he and his legal team blew it.

I'm saying it's working towards something better. I didn't say it was fully okay. Please read on further than the "but".

Also, no shit he's careless, that's been the worst people that have been 'defending' him have said. I'm saying a moment of fuzzy brain doesn't need a million articles of "HE'S A RACIST, LOOK HE SAID A BAD WORD". This is elementary school behavior. And I'd hope that more people would realize that.

And yeah, I'm not going to argue that it's avoidable, but I'm also going to re-iterate that outside of the U.S., 'nigger' has about as much bite as bitch-ass if me hearing it as much as I did is any indication. Call him out on it if you want, but anything beyond that once just makes no fucking sense to me. We're talking about a word that doesn't have the same context outside of the U.S., and the malice people attribute solely to the word and not the person, feeling, or action behind the word is overdone. Like, there is no real difference between "nigga" and "nigger" beyond colloquial, but nobody cares in that instance. There's no real difference between "nigger" and "The n-word", but one is okay while the other isn't.

Because, again like I said, it's a word. And there are very few words and phrases that I find completely abhorrent, and of those, they all have their time and context to be used in. And I'm of the mind that using it as a general exclamation of frustration when you're not really thinking but just angry is one of those.

Redryhno:
I'm saying it's working towards something better. I didn't say it was fully okay. Please read on further than the "but".

Yeah, it was a lot of tone deaf crap.

I'm also going to re-iterate that outside of the U.S., 'nigger' has about as much bite as bitch-ass if me hearing it as much as I did is any indication.

Pewds has over 50 million subscribers. The population of Sweden is just under 10 million. He has an international audience, not just a Swedish so please stop using that as an excuse to act boorish and uncouth in public.

Call him out on it if you want, but anything beyond that once just makes no fucking sense to me.

I don't really what makes sense to you, because this isn't about you.

Because, again like I said, it's a word. And there are very few words and phrases that I find completely abhorrent, and of those, they all have their time and context to be used in. And I'm of the mind that using it as a general exclamation of frustration when you're not really thinking but just angry is one of those.

Great for you that you have the luxury of saying that. It's pretty tone deaf and oblivious to assume that everyone else dies.

BeetleManiac:

Redryhno:
I'm saying it's working towards something better. I didn't say it was fully okay. Please read on further than the "but".

Yeah, it was a lot of tone deaf crap.

I'm also going to re-iterate that outside of the U.S., 'nigger' has about as much bite as bitch-ass if me hearing it as much as I did is any indication.

Pewds has over 50 million subscribers. The population of Sweden is just under 10 million. He has an international audience, not just a Swedish so please stop using that as an excuse to act boorish and uncouth in public.

Call him out on it if you want, but anything beyond that once just makes no fucking sense to me.

I don't really what makes sense to you, because this isn't about you.

Because, again like I said, it's a word. And there are very few words and phrases that I find completely abhorrent, and of those, they all have their time and context to be used in. And I'm of the mind that using it as a general exclamation of frustration when you're not really thinking but just angry is one of those.

Great for you that you have the luxury of saying that. It's pretty tone deaf and oblivious to assume that everyone else dies.

Explain to me HOW it was tone deaf then. I've yet to even get an answer for "This is in line with his other actions". At least give me a reason to NOT tune you out, because I desperately want to understand why people believe it was completely in the wrong and is somehow proof of whatever evility they want to attribute him. You're giving me nothing to work with. Nothing to understand where you're coming from. Or why anything I'm being told should actually matter beyond "I say so, therefore you better listen" humbrabug.

As for the rest, I just have a bunch of questions. What the hell does ONLY Sweden have to do with this? there's alot more to the world that doesn't particularly care about the word. And how is this not about me? It's a witchhunt over an expletive, don't try to turn it around and say "well you/they/he have the luxury of saying it" crap, at the end of the day, that's what it initially was. How is it not about you? Hell, how is it not allowed to be about some and not others? What are the reasons only some opinions are valid here?

Redryhno:
because I desperately want to understand why people believe it was completely in the wrong and is somehow proof of whatever evility they want to attribute him.

See, right there. There's a big part of your problem. You assume way too much. You think you know everyone else's motives, thoughts and feelings based on shallow stereotypes. Your claim of wanting to understand rings hollow when there are people here telling you how they think and feel about this, and you go ahead and mischaracterize the conversation anyway. It sounds less like you want understanding and more like you want us to justify ourselves to you.

You're assuming that your experience is the most universal. That your feelings are the most rational. Your logic the most iron-clad. Yet all you offer is shallow platitudes like, "Some day, black people won't be offended by white people calling them niggers." It makes you sound like you've never actually met a black person.

Have you ever actually taken the time to ask a black person why they find the word nigger so offensive? Or any Jews about why they're offended by being called kikes? A Latino why he doesn't want to be called a wetback or a spic? A gay dude why he doesn't like being called a faggot? A trans woman why it hurts to be referred to as a tranny or a trap? Or do you simply assume that you know and work outward from there? You're demonstrating a failure to put yourself in another person's shoes and then demand that they be the ones who stop having emotional reactions to things that don't directly affect you.

Shit, at least PewDiePie has owned his mistakes, even if he keeps making them. You? You're just making excuses.

But if you're really uninterested in what non-whites have to say about this, then let's talk about how it would affect white dudes in the entertainment industry like me. I have a job right now as a tour guide. We have a large multicultural population where I live, so there are things that I can and cannot say on that platform. It's privately owned, I signed the contract agreeing to the terms of my employment, and if I violate the terms of that contract, I can be shitcanned. You can gripe about that if you want, but it won't change the fact that it is how the world works. Surprise-surprise, the same is true of YT. If you have a YouTube Red contract, and they decide that you are a liability, you're gone. If the sponsors flee because of your actions, you will be held responsible for the actions you took.

On top of that, the internet cannot stay the Wild West forever. Jurisprudence is going to start coming in as the internet affects all aspects of our daily lives, directly or otherwise. Do you really want those precedents to be set because a Swedish dude didn't take a hint and kept dropping racial slurs because he forgot to think about whether or not it would be in his or anyone else's best interest? Do you want precedents to be set due to a celebrity's lack of self-control? And make no mistake, if you have 50 million subscribers, you are a fucking celebrity.

Mel Gibson had a Nazi meltdown in his private life, it made it to the public, and now Hollywood and the movie-going public are done with him. Imagine how much worse it would have been if he had done so on someone else's platform while making a profit from it.

It's a witchhunt

No it isn't. This is a witch hunt. This thread is a bunch of people saying, "Not again, dude! We had this conversation already!"

What are the reasons only some opinions are valid here?

I put the same question to you. Why do you seem to think it's so unreasonable for people to be offended by the casual use of a racial slur? I know some really awful slurs from other countries that mean very little stateside. That doesn't make it a good idea to use them. Do you want to call black people niggers? And if yes, then for Christ's sake, WHY?

BeetleManiac:

Redryhno:
because I desperately want to understand why people believe it was completely in the wrong and is somehow proof of whatever evility they want to attribute him.

See, right there. There's a big part of your problem. You assume way too much. You think you know everyone else's motives, thoughts and feelings based on shallow stereotypes. Your claim of wanting to understand rings hollow when there are people here telling you how they think and feel about this, and you go ahead and mischaracterize the conversation anyway. It sounds less like you want understanding and more like you want us to justify ourselves to you.

You're assuming that your experience is the most universal. That your feelings are the most rational. Your logic the most iron-clad. Yet all you offer is shallow platitudes like, "Some day, black people won't be offended by white people calling them niggers." It makes you sound like you've never actually met a black person.

Have you ever actually taken the time to ask a black person why they find the word nigger so offensive? Or any Jews about why they're offended by being called kikes? A Latino why he doesn't want to be called a wetback or a spic? A gay dude why he doesn't like being called a faggot? A trans woman why it hurts to be referred to as a tranny or a trap? Or do you simply assume that you know and work outward from there? You're demonstrating a failure to put yourself in another person's shoes and then demand that they be the ones who stop having emotional reactions to things that don't directly affect you.

Shit, at least PewDiePie has owned his mistakes, even if he keeps making them. You? You're just making excuses.

But if you're really uninterested in what non-whites have to say about this, then let's talk about how it would affect white dudes in the entertainment industry like me. I have a job right now as a tour guide. We have a large multicultural population where I live, so there are things that I can and cannot say on that platform. It's privately owned, I signed the contract agreeing to the terms of my employment, and if I violate the terms of that contract, I can be shitcanned. You can gripe about that if you want, but it won't change the fact that it is how the world works. Surprise-surprise, the same is true of YT. If you have a YouTube Red contract, and they decide that you are a liability, you're gone. If the sponsors flee because of your actions, you will be held responsible for the actions you took.

On top of that, the internet cannot stay the Wild West forever. Jurisprudence is going to start coming in as the internet affects all aspects of our daily lives, directly or otherwise. Do you really want those precedents to be set because a Swedish dude didn't take a hint and kept dropping racial slurs because he forgot to think about whether or not it would be in his or anyone else's best interest? Do you want precedents to be set due to a celebrity's lack of self-control? And make no mistake, if you have 50 million subscribers, you are a fucking celebrity.

Mel Gibson had a Nazi meltdown in his private life, it made it to the public, and now Hollywood and the movie-going public are done with him. Imagine how much worse it would have been if he had done so on someone else's platform while making a profit from it.

It's a witchhunt

No it isn't. This is a witch hunt. This thread is a bunch of people saying, "Not again, dude! We had this conversation already!"

What are the reasons only some opinions are valid here?

I put the same question to you. Why do you seem to think it's so unreasonable for people to be offended by the casual use of a racial slur? I know some really awful slurs from other countries that mean very little stateside. That doesn't make it a good idea to use them. Do you want to call black people niggers? And if yes, then for Christ's sake, WHY?

And here we go, turning everything asked back into the demonization of the question asker. But I'll play along for a bit longer.

I have no desire to call anyone anything, I simply desire a world where those words mean about as much as bitch, asshole, shithead, douchebag, motherfucker, son of a. Insults? Sure. But more importantly, universally understood as being nothing but generic. Where the hate and venom behind them is gone and they're just words. Where do you get off on saying that that ideal is actually just a secret racist desire?

And I never said a damn thing about white people calling anyone anything, I said black kids with knowledge of the history of the word being called it. That's on you.

As for never having met a black person, I grew up in the middle of nowhere Texas, where white,black, and hispanic were all roughly equal. So yes, I have. Know 3 of them that were effectively ostracized from both family and community because they weren't interested enough in being "black". Whatever the fuck that means. So, I suppose, no, I have never met or seen one outside of the BBC's completely historical take on Irish Kings.

As for mistakes on Felix's part, I'm simply offering up explanations that aren't "he's a massive racist shitbag, and you should feel fine with wishing for his death". And unsurprisingly, nobody wants those.

The false DMCA was a scumbag move, no getting around it. But I find it rich that some people are arguing that no one should be offended. Yet those people would be screaming sexism if I said the words "toxic masculinity"

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